Anyone know how to get the image the right way up when shooting with a lens adaptor on a Sony TRV950? I heard there's stuff to be done with magnets.....?

There is a sweet spot on the LCD, flip it out and run the magnet over the edge closest to the camera (it is slightly different on all cameras). Keep trying until you get it. Make sure the magnet is only a fridge magnet or something weak.

Leo, this does not apply to all cameras. The GS400 (and this from the factory schematic) does not use magnetic reed switches. The "sensing" mechanism is evidently in the LCD hinge assembly, combined with sensors that detect when the camera is upside down.

Other than mirrors mounted to your LCD, or a prism/mirror image flip, there is no way to view footage upright on this camera. Turn it upside down, the camera detects that, and rotates the image. These "smart" LCD's are the worst thing possible for folks with adapters.

And the manufacturer thought it was doing us consumers a favor...sheesh.

They were.....most consumers don't strap a 35mm lens on :-)

Canon got it right with the flip feature on their XLH.

Dennis,

If your smart lcd detects being upside down and flips then you'd be ok!

Inverting a camera with a lens adapter results in a correctly orientated image
on the recording only, the display will still be upside down.

To check, rotate your camera whilst using your adapter and watch out for the lcd to suddenly detect it's upside down and switch. My guess is that it doesn't.

see http://www.maths.ox.ac.uk/~smithdm/upside.html
for example.


regards

Dave

I'm using an external field LCD monitor which I just flip over when mounting. I have an XL1s which doesn't have that kind of an LCD.

David, funny how the flip issue creates the discussion that it does:

My favourite is that rotating the cam 180 degress does not invert and flip the image...ha.

And yes, you're correct. With the GS400 inverted with an adapter, the footage is recorded correctly...however it's displayed upside down on the LCD. I found out the hard way after building a rail system to mount the cam inverted and realized to my surprise that the LCD had flipped what should have been a correctly displayed image, upside down again. This was a surprise to just about everyone over at pana3ccduser too. If you rotate the cam 180 degrees with no adapter..surprise, it rotates the image upright. It makes no sense as to why the 35mm image is not rotated, then flipped upright as the cam detects inversion.

I'm working on a FS mirror solution...

Hi Dennis,

I'm reckoning that if the LCD doesn't do a "smart" flip i.e. it doesn't detect which way up it is, then the image will still be upside down when the camera is inverted.

This is the case with mine.

regards,

Dave

Im with David on this one

Picture this:

GS400 is upright...no adapter present, normal image on LCD.

Now flip it upside down. LCD detects this and reverts image. Recorded image is upside down, LCD display is upright.

Now add adapter. LCD image is now upside down due to adapter. Recorded image is correct. So you're cooked either way.

That's a great illustration you linked to BTW. And yes, I agree, the image would be upside down regardless of the "smart" flip. It's a tough one to get one's head around.

Dennis,

So with this 'flip' feature, when you turn the cam upside down the LCD will also be physically upsidedown, but the cam flips the picture 180, correct?

So, if this is true, without the adapter, turn cam upsidedown, the image flips on the LCD and the image on the LCD appears upsidedown when viewed (as it would be when viewed on a conencted tv).

Put 35mm adapter on, and the image will be correct way around.

Correct me if im wrong....

EDIT:
Just to back this up, looking at that diagram posted above, you see on a normal cam without a flip feature, that even with the camcorder inverted, the image on the LCD appears upsidedown still from the opertators viewpoint. Now, if the 'flip' feature was on, then the image on the LCD whould be fliped 180 degrees, giving you an upright image from the operators viewpiont and on the final recording.

The GS400, with or without adapter, assumes that the image is correct when the cam is upright. If you turn the cam upside down, it flips the image, so that the image you got initially stays the same.

With the adapter, it does the same. It assumes that the inverted image is correct; so when you turn the cam and adapter upside down, it flips the image... which stays inverted.

The GS400, with or without adapter, assumes that the image is correct when the cam is upright. If you turn the cam upside down, it flips the image, so that the image you got initially stays the same.

I dont think this is correct.

Forget adapters for a second...

Normal camcorder upright = Image on LCD upright from operators view


Normal camcorder upsidedown = Image on LCD is still upright from operators view (since the LCD is also now upside down).

------------


Camcorder with flip feature upright = Image on LCD upright from operators view

Camcorder with flip feature upsidedown = Image on LCD upsidedown from operators view (as it is on the tape and to a connected tv)

-------
Now with adapter:

Camcorder with flip feature upright with 35mm adapter = Image on LCD upsidedown from operators view

Camcorder with flip feature upsidedown with 35mm adapter = Image on LCD upright from operators view (as it is on the tape and to a conencted tv).


So this suggests that a cam with this flip feature, if mounted upsidedown with a 35mm adapter, will both give you a correctly oriented image on the LCD and a correctly oriented image recordered to tape.


EDIT: I hope david does not mind but i added to his diagram at the bottom the result of a cam inverted, with flip option and a 35mm adapter added:

http://www.s149867411.onlinehome.fr/upside2.jpg

OK, there may be a bit of confusion on the word "flip" here.

The GS400 behaves like a "normal camcorder", as per your example.

So let me rephrase: The GS400, with or without adapter, assumes that the image is correct when the cam is upright. If you turn the cam upside down, it still gives you the image you had when it was upright.

The heavens have opened up, and now I see the light. It makes sense if you correlate a point on the LCD with a point on the CCD and follow them along.

I was clearly mistaken.....there is no magical flip function, just a guy(s) with a neuronal block. HA.

I stand entirely edubicated.

So there is no flip function on the cam?

Nope, the only flip function is in the brain of the guy who called it a flip function...er, me. Rotating the cam upside down displays the image in the LCD as right side up...as it should. I just took David's suggestion of following the points correlated to CCD top and LCD top. It makes sense....but it's not intuitive.

The funny thing is, no one else except you guys picked up on that! Thanks for setting me (and soon a few more folks) straight....(shakes head, egg on face). Geez, I was even looking in schematics for mercury switches...ackk.

One thing though I can say for sure...you can't flip the GS400 LCD with a magnet. The switch that flips the LCD when you rotate it forward must be in the hinge itself...it doesn't show up on the factory service drawings for the LCD in the bezel, or the chassis.

Yeah, i think where people have gone wrong, is they imagine that when they rotate the camera upsidedown, the image rotates with it, but it does not.

The GS400 is a panny isnt it? My panny (nvds-30) is the same and does not work with the magnet trick either...

Wayne Kinney, you've got to be the most ignorant guy on here. do you even own a camcorder? maybe if you do, you should flip it upside down and watch it. these guys are telling you what happens with the camcorder, and your like, "no, thats not right". jeez bro, make and adapter, and buy a camera. figure it out for yourself.

Forrest,
Hehe, yes i own a camcorder, and as you see Dennis now agrees with David MD Smith's original statement, which is correct.

Flip your camocrder upside down, Forrest, and the image is still upright when you view it in this orientation (without adapter attached). Attach adapter, and the image appears upsidedown on the LCD from the operators view.

Give it a go Forrest, and you will see what we are talking about.

yes, i have given it a go, and im sorry, i only read the 1st page before i posted my comment, so i hadnt read the outcome. But i just wonder why everyone had to just talk about what is already known. theres no way around it, putting the apapter on makes everythng inverted. because our cameras were built without the ability to do another flip. or take away the standard flip that every ccd does. that would be cool. but would require hacking.

Forrest, Wayne's the SG35 creator. I've eaten crow on this one...Dan and Wayne have it right. The easiest way to visualize this is to point your cam at a scene. Picture a point at the top of the CCD, and the top of the LCD and mentally lock them together. Now rotate the cam.....the two points are now visually at the bottom of the LCD frame. This is completely not intuitive....but it makes sense if you check out Dan's diagram, and visualize the points.

If this was a church, I'd be getting baptized about now :-) I'm now a believer. I'm also to blame for the thread misdirection :-(

Forrest,
hehe, all is cool. I think we all wanted this flip feature. If only there was a realtime flip feature 'in cam' that just flipped the image before dv compression, as to appear correct on the LCD and tape. But what average Joe wants that?

actually wayne is correct, you can notice the characters are upside down, but the image is correctly right, but recorded 180 degress upsidedown.


if you put the adaptor, you will record it ok, but still see it upside down.

the best solution is to buy a cheap $49 lcd and attach it to the camera, and put it upside down.

Agus! My god, are you back?!?!?

A celebrity in our midst...

Just buy one of those ps2 lcds or a magnavox like agus said. they are about 50 bucks, and you can rotate it how you please. plus they are larger than most camcorder lcds.

ps2 LCD? Anyone has a link?

Well, heres a real Ps2 lcd
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Sony-Playstation-2-5-0-Color-LCD-Monitor-PS2_W0QQitemZ8256274447QQcategoryZ11319QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

but im thinking more another style
this is the older ps1 and i like it better

http://cgi.ebay.com/SONY-PS1-MONITER-PLAYSTATION-5-LCD-PORTABLE-SCREEN-NEW_W0QQitemZ8257752501QQcategoryZ1489QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

and if your'e creative like me, youll strip the cover off and take away the speakers. And put it in a more simpler box frame. either metal or plastic. and wa la!

And the resolution is ...?! (@the PS1/PS2 LCD)

Does anyone know if the magnet trick works with a Z1U?

I took my Sony Z1U apart and just flipped the CCD's upside down. that fixed the problem. not to hard of a project.

alright, the last post was a joke.

as for the Ps1 resolution. its better than any dvx lcd. so id buy it in an instant.

Damn, and I just got my z1 apart. Any idea how it goes back together?

Oh crap dude! are you serious? well, i was jk, but if you're serious.. just put it back together the way you took it apart.

Hello,

When i rotate the LCD screen and turn 180 it to face whatever i am recording the image flips. On my sony camera this flip is activated by a small button which gets released. Im not sure about my gs150 but its probably the same exact thing.

If you need to flip the screen, why not just make sure this button is pressed/released? It should be simple enough to solder another switch to it?

If this has already been mentioned please forgive me.

*edit*

Actually im mistaking, that button serves another function. But the lcd image does flip, so the functionality is there. Its a switch of some sort

Come in spinner! Imagine if I was a poor student who'd just taken
his newly acquired camera apart. Luckily, I'm not. Now has anybody got a real answer? What's the most expedient way to flip the image on the z1, or is it not possible?

I've both the Sony TRV940e (it's like the 950) and the old Sony TRV900e. On both the magnet to flip the screen dos'nt work.

So the alternatives are an external monitor upside downor or a simple mirror.

Hi folks!

What about this solution? :

http://www.rowe.at/de/images/stories/M2VF/M2VF_promo.html

robert

Very cool and very nicely done. Same for the footage, and the site!

Keep it up!

I too was worried about the flip issue. the most expedient method of flipping the image for me was... buy a letus35 flip. Camera records right side up, lcd views right side up and the captured footage is... right side up!

-a

Come in spinner! Imagine if I was a poor student who'd just taken
his newly acquired camera apart. Luckily, I'm not. Now has anybody got a real answer? What's the most expedient way to flip the image on the z1, or is it not possible?

turn the camera upside down.

http://www.marlathemovie.com

Andrew, sure that sounds all fine and dandy, and with such a beatuful package, you lose a little over 3 stops of light. big prob.

I like that viewfinder idea very very much. Its exactly the smae thing as buying an lcd such as a playstation 1 external lcd moniter. (costs about 50 bucks) and flipping it upside down. its that easy!

no light loss, and a 50 extra cost, as oppsed to a built in flipper with the adapter which loses much light.

3 stops? Maybe on the old "non-enhanced" flip, but mine is nowhere near 3 stops. Quyen claims 1.5 and that probably isnt far off.

1.5 is still a fair bit of light loss for indoor shooting, and possibly too much for you, but 3 stops? no way.

-A

Andrew, sure that sounds all fine and dandy, and with such a beatuful package, you lose a little over 3 stops of light. big prob.

I like that viewfinder idea very very much. Its exactly the smae thing as buying an lcd such as a playstation 1 external lcd moniter. (costs about 50 bucks) and flipping it upside down. its that easy!

no light loss, and a 50 extra cost, as oppsed to a built in flipper with the adapter which loses much light.

http://dvxuser.com/articles/35/

article about 35mm adapter shootout. conducted by the dvxuser.com crew.
If yours is the 700 dollar advanced version. then you are probally correct.

here is a quote of one section:

" Letus35 Flip

Quyen Le has done something quite remarkable for the indie film maker by creating an affordable adapter that rids the need of having to flip monitors up side down or having to flip footage in post. It's unfortunate that the particular unit we tested appeared to be defective in that the GG (or mirror) was out of alignment, but I believe that if an end user were to purchase from him, and that was the case, he'd make it right as soon as possible. That said, the Letus35 Flip loses a considerable amount of light ... even with the GG/mirror issue corrected, our estimates would be approximately 3+ stops.

In looking at the Quyen's web site, it appears that some of our concern with the Letus35 Flip have already been addressed in an "advanced" version, which has also increased in price by $100, to a total of $700. This is no small sum of change, but Quyen is also reporting only 1.5 stops of light loss with it, as well as an improved GG. I've yet to see this improved adapter, but I'm interested to say the least. If we get a chance to test it, I'll update the results here as well, as I will for the SG35 Pro. "

Has anyone tried using that it's upside down to their advantage? From looking in drawing books, it's recommened to try tracing a picture while it is upside down. This kicks your right brain in which sees the lines and forms.

-Adam Keen

From looking in drawing books, it's recommened to try tracing a picture while it is upside down.

interresting what they recommend to drawers? like drawing with shallow depth of field? :)

I just found a little program for mac that will let you preview and capture an image flip flopped.

http://www.bensoftware.com/capturemate/

you can use your mac laptop to preview and or capture a flip flopped image on the fly.

http://dvxuser.com/articles/35/

article about 35mm adapter shootout. conducted by the dvxuser.com crew.
If yours is the 700 dollar advanced version. then you are probally correct.


I dont know anything about an advanced version, but mine is the flip enhanced, which is not the same unit in the article you posted. I mentioned in my last post that you might be referring to the "non-enhanced" version to clarify things, but that didnt seem to work.

1.5 stops might be too much depending on your shooting situation, and you might not be able to afford $700. I personally have found the flip to be worth every penny and aside from from a little more grain than i'd like, its a great little tool and an admirable performer inside and out.