This is probably going to seem like a completely silly question......but ...what is the difference between a light for filmmaking that costs from $600 upwards.... compared to the lights you can buy at the hardware for $30?????

I've been using $30 150w Halogen lights for indoors with very nice results. They can be hung from anything at any level and I've used different almost sheer materials and colours on stands in front of the lights (furthur enough away to avoid them becoming hot).....and I have found these lights can then create very attractive different effects/moods and have been very happy with them....but...

Now..Im really curious to know...am I missing something here? What would the $600 and upwards lights give that Im not getting now? I want to know if Im missing out on something truly major by not forking out bigger dollars for a few lights???

Can anyone please shed some.......um.....light.......on this issue for me?

Tracey

I still use my Home Depot 500W worklights when I need some extra light sources. Eleven bucks each. Nothing wrong with them, bounced off a board or a wall, they make a nice light source.

The next step up is a cheap light kit in the $400-$600 range. I've got a Britek light kit off ebay, that works great. Same Halogen bulbs you get from home depot, but now you have adjustable stands to make positioning the lights quicker, barndoors to keep the light from going where you don't want it, a soft box and umbrella for diffuse lighting, and a focusable spotlight. I usually use my 250W spot as a "kicker," lighting an edge on the back of a subjects head.

The focusable "fresnel" (pronounced fur-nel) is the entry professional light source. It can be adjusted from a tight spotlight to a broad light source. A light kit with three ARRI fresnels, professional C stands, scrims, and flags can easily run a couple of grand.

The halogen's are an incandescent light source, taking a lot of power and giving a kind-of yellowish light. Many Pros prefer work with Dedolights or other brands that give a whiter light and operate at a cooler temperature. These are like your home florescent lights but specially designed to prevent the "audio hum" you normally get with your home bulbs. I believe they also run on DC voltage making them field portable, running off a battery.

Finally, there are high power HMI lights. I don't know much about them, but they stick one of these bad boys outside your window, and the whole room is lit like it's broad daylight. Stick them up high on a crane, and you have bright moon lighting in the middle of the night. I've been on a few movie sets, and seen them use all of these, but I can only afford my Britek lights.

That's about all I know about lighting. Hope it helps.

http://www.dvinfo.net/articles/lighting/spears1.php
heres a good piece of information from somebody with alot of experience. also, Check out this article for some decent info:
http://www.videomaker.com/scripts/article.cfm?id=12095

Thanks Dick and Steve for both your helpful replies.

At this point, im using the lighting mainly for interviews. And I also have the 500w halogen lights on stands...which can sometimes come in handy for various things. Dick, I think you got a bargain for $11 (everything seems so much more expensive in Australia). The ebay option is something I might check out.. for more pro 2nd hand lights. Im also beginning to think a balance between some cheap hardware store lights and some pro lights isnt a bad idea as soon as I have a little more cash to throw around.

Steve, those article links were great!!!

At the end of the day it seems to me then, that cheap lights will do the job, but pro lights make it much less hassle (and of course look better).

Tracey

http://www.dvinfo.net/articles/lighting/hdlightkit1.php
sorry, one more. This one seems brutally honest about things.

For a home built HMI-like solution, use a 400watt Metal Halide bulb - its what many street lamps use, they put out around 30,000 lumens.

Don't look directly into them though... ouch.

I think the main reason to go with expensive lights is control. If you want to finess your lighting, then you should go with a good reputable lighting kit.

If you just need more light or you're lighting a few items in your scene or interview, inexpensive lights will work.

The quality of a kit is less in it's build and more in how much time it saves you on set - that's why certain kits are more expensive than others. I can save money and buy an indestructible surveryors tripod and work lights, but they become a huge hassle to transport, setup, and adjust.

Having done the whole route myself, using inexpensive lights was a great learning experience and taught me a lot about what does and doesn't work and why. But now that I've gotten used to using expensive lighting kits, I don't ever want to go back, unless it's in a pinch.

Plus, having the right tool for the job, makes lighting less of a chore, and much more enjoyable. I used to get stressed over lighting when I was using inexpensive lights, but now I look forward to it. It's a lot of fun when you're using the right tools.

I would have to say control AND durability, would be the two main issues. Control over light spillage as well as color temp, which is what you gain with the lights designed for film or video, over photography kits or hardware DIY lights. Thoe ones designed for "us" have the barn doors to control where the light goes, and have accessories designed specificly to control how it is softened or directed. you can get the same control with DIY kits, but it is more work, and a lot of trial and error.

As far as durability goes, even spending $800 on a Lowell kit, you would think it would be sturdy. Not always so. Mine was rather weak in several areas, and the only justification in the price, was the name, and DV stamped on it. Of course, you spend a lot more on say Arri or Mole Richards, but you will be able pass them on to someone else down the road, after many years of rugged use.

Having done the whole route myself, using inexpensive lights was a great learning experience and taught me a lot about what does and doesn't work and why. .

Good point, because whilst I would love a professional lighting kit to miraculously fall out of the sky and land promptly at my front doorstep(preferably in a pastel pink case), I'm finding that being forced to improvise and experiment with inexpensive lighting options is kinda rewarding and fun(at times), but more importantly, turning into a very good learning experience. I guess at least when I graduate to the more expensive professional kits, I'll be a lot more appreciative of them. That has to be a good thing.... right? At least thats what I keep telling myself!

Meanwhile, all the input/suggestions on this forum are mightily appreciated.


Tracey

Hey Tracey, you might already know about this but for diffusion material try something called "Parchment Paper". This paper looks like wax paper but it can withstand extreme heat. It is made for baking cookies on in the oven to keep from sticking to the metal pan and is a little more expensive than wax paper. It is also nearly the same paper that subway sandwich shops use to toast their sandwiches on in a hot toaster oven. The light looks beautiful when diffused through this stuff. Anyway, this stuff may be sold at your grocery store or Walmart near the aluminum foil and wax paper etc. Comes in rolls and tear off what size you need and clip on your lights with wood clothes pins. As far as the different color temperatures of the lights, yes we try and match these as much as we can but isn't this what WHITE BALANCE is for. Can't we go ahead and Mix Halogen, florencent, incadecent, natural (thru the window) all together and get the shadows and highlights you want....... and then correct with WB. That is what I was always told. Someone correct me here if I am wrong about anything because I am still just learning too.

Steve,

White balance can only go so far when you are mixing sources. There's a difference between a key window light of 5200k and a tungsten fill of 3500 and lord knows what the flourescents overhead are spewing out. Bottom line is, after white balancing all of that, you'll have weird color shadows and highlights.

Thanks Richard. Is there a "Rule of Thumb" to go by on something like this as to not push the WB envelope too far.....or just make every effort to match sources. I don't have access to any light measuring equipment yet but I do want to keep my white balance happy.

Not sure what rule of thumb you might be looking for, other than to match your sources... as near as possible.

The white balance feature, looks at what you tell it is "WHITE". It then adjusts it's sensors to make that color look white. When you have different temperatures reaching the same subject, your eyes and BRAIN may be able to balance it all out, but the white balance has to pic a point (the primary overriding or strongest element that is hitting your white card) and balance on that. The result is the other temperatures are going to skew hot or cold (Blue or orange) wherever they are the predominant shade. (Often this is the shadows or highlights.

Steve, thanks for the tip on parchment paper. I know that will come in handy soon.

I want to address this:

"As far as the different color temperatures of the lights, yes we try and match these as much as we can but isn't this what WHITE BALANCE is for. Can't we go ahead and Mix Halogen, florencent, incadecent, natural (thru the window) all together and get the shadows and highlights you want....... and then correct with WB. That is what I was always told."

Incorrect information was conveyed to you. White balance sets a baseline, but it will do nothing to mix your different sources.

If you have a scene with a window on one side, fluorescent office lights above, and you use halogen lights to fill the side of an actor's face opposite the window, you have three distinct sources and the audience will be able to subconsciously determine all sources. What you will see is a bluish tint from the window side, greenish-white from above, and yellowish tint on the halogen side. It will be very obvious that you have a light shining in the actor's face. It will look "fake" to the audience.

What causes the problem is the combination of 5600K sunlight, 4100K office lights, and 2700K halogen lights. The camera picks an average and will balance about to the office lights. It may lean more towards the sun since it is such a bright source. This will make your halogen lights seem even more yellow. Add to all this the fact that cheap office fluorescents (good fluorescents are fine) have more green than other colors and you will get an unpleasant image. Green doesn't alway mix well with colors in people's faces.

How to fix this scene?

The first thing to do would be to balance your fill light (the light opposite the window that keeps your actor from being in a silhouette) with the window light. You can either gel the window or the fill light to achieve this. If you only have one window, you might consider using 1/2 to full CTO (amber gel) to bring it down closer to your halogen lights. This will also bring the often overwhelming light coming in from a window down to a more manageable level since all color gels decrease light. You could use 1/2 CTB (blue) to bring up the color temperature of your halogen lights, but CTB cuts out a lot of light. Unless you have extremely powerful lights, it is easier to bring down a window's light than to increase your fill light wattage. If the CTO doesn't bring down the brightness of the window enough, you can add ND (neutral density) gel. I found that since video has a lower lattitude than film that if I want the scene outside the window to be visible that strong ND must be used. In one scene, I used 1.2 ND (4 f-stops) to balance a scene of the ocean out a window to the available indoor light. We had only a couple thousand watts of light to fill a shot with 7 people dancing and if the windows behind them were not gelled down strongly, they would have totally washed out.

BTW, if you have gelled window in your scene, the wrinkles in the gel make weird reflections. You may have to do some work to eliminate reflections from your studio lights. If you have sufficient prep time, gels can be cut to fit a window and squeegeed in place with some soapy water. This makes the gel cling to the window and have a flat reflection like normal glass.

Next, adjust the overhead fluorescents (or turn them off and see if it looks better). To do this, use 1/4 or 1/8 "minusgreen" gels. This will help cut out the "green spike" in cheap fluorescent lights. Also, if the color temperature is still wrong, gel them up or down with a layer or two of 1/4 CTO or 1/4 CTB to blend into your other light sources.

Light sources don't all have to match, but learn how to acclomplish the match so you can start even and change the colors to suit your taste. Don't be tied down by whatever light sources are handy. Use of some cheap gels can do wonders.

Hey Tracey, you might already know about this but for diffusion material try something called "Parchment Paper".

Steve.... I am assuming that the thing you call Parchment Paper is the thing we here in Australia call...Baking Paper!!! And no....I must admit..I havent tried that. I've been experimenting with sheets of different partly sheer type materials in front of the lights which coincidentally also give the whole room a beautiful serene feel....

Will try the ..Parchment/Baking Paper tommorrow!


Tracey

Cheap diffusion material.

Baking parchment... yeah, it's probably the best. I always keep a roll in the grip bag. It's pretty thick, expect to cut the light output by at least a stop, maybe more. That's not a bad thing in a small space where you need to get the lights close to your subject.

Bounce cards and reflectors... plenty of home made options. This can be even softer than blasting through the parchment paper, but a little less controlled.

Carefull as you test your diffusion materials... test BEFORE you are on set. Don't want to start a fire. I had to use a double headed work light source once... plenty of power and wattage, awfully harsh light. I took a diffuse semi-clear 'frosted' shower curtain, stretched it with bungee cords and blasted the light THROUGH that. Really softened it up. Almost like using spun glass. But keep the light far enough away from the curtain. Remember when bouncing and dispersing through materials, the LARGER the bounce surface, or diffusion surface, the softer the light will appear. (You will also get less specular highlights if you are shooting shiny products)

Have fun!

Just out of curiosity, I have used parchment paper for *gasp!* baking, and have noticed it tends to yellow a bit with the heat. Is this an issue when used with lights?

Yes, of course, that would affect the color temperature. The solution is simply to replace it as soon as you notice it, or every few hours.

Thank you, Marcus, for the great explanation. I would like to add that another difference between cheap- and expensive lights is the quality, or verisimilitude, as measured by the CRI (Color Rendering Index). A good light will emit a broad and even spectrum, which means it will render colors accurately. A low CRI light will accentuate certain colors, while suppressing others. Definitely not good.

Keith,

Haven't noticed any yellowing, and I've used it in front of a 1k Lowel DP, for more than an hour. But sure, just like gels, when it fades or melts or discolors, toss it out.

Must be the way I bake then...

Keith,

Seriously, it might actually have to do with the proximity of the actual foodstuffs...

But yeah, I've never seen the parchment paper yellow when kept a good 8-10 inches from the 1k light source.

That's good to know Richard. I was just curious about it, because it does seem to yellow when baking food on it. But, as you said, it could be because of the food.

Keith,

On the off chance that it's a 'brand' issue, I went and checked what I had in my grip box. I'm using "REYNOLDS Parchment Paper" - The same people who make Reynolds Alluminum Foil.

Not sure what you have available to you - but hey, clip a piece in front of your hottest light, and let it sit for an hour... that should do the trick.

In my little experience, I have also NOT seen any discoloration of the Baking/Parchment paper and I clip it directly onto the front of these hot hot double headed worklights. I think I had the lights on for at least 3 hours I still have the wire cage on the front of my worklights and this is the only separation from the glass face of the light. Shadows of these wires are not a factor after diffusing this way. By the way...I also used Reynolds.

Something else that I have noticed through playing around with worklights. When talking about the double headed halogen worklights on a stand, they will project a pretty clean and focused shadow pattern on the wall with the GOBO or PATTERN, as close as right up against the light's wire cage. That is.....only the "HORIZONTAL" details anyway. But anything vertical or straight up and down will be so diffuse and blurred when that close to the light that it is an insignificant detail. Even the wire cage protector proves this.....as it has vertical and horizontal wires equadistant from the lamp and only the horizontal wire casts a shadow. The halogen lamp is installed horizontaly in the fixture which I guess has something to do with this phenomenon. So this may help if anyone wants to create simple easy horizontal shadows (as in a window shade pattern) or similar. Other cool things that I have tried: a crude stick/wicker basket creates an awesome pattern (I know......Fire Hazzard!!!). Also tried a flat metal drain cover (with slats oriented horizontaly) for a safe easy pattern. As everyone has said though.....always be very careful about the materials that you put close to these extremely hot lights.

Has anyone else noticed this silly discovery??

[QUOTE=Steve Witt] When talking about the double headed halogen worklights on a stand,/[QUOTE]

Steve,

Interesting,...... I have those double headed halogen worklights on a stand but cant recall these patterns (possibly bec I dont want patterns and probably have automatically unconsciously adjusted things to avoid them).

But will specifically look for them next time i use them.

One thing though........with all this playing around with hot lights and different things over them or close to them......Im beginning to think a little portable fire extinguisher would not go astray!!!!!! Perhaps its not totally necessary but.....Im thinking it would be kinda nice to know there's one handy!

Tracey

Hey, a small fire extinguisher may not be a bad idea for your grip kit. You read about some of the most experienced poeple on here sometimes describing an embarassing (and dangerous) incindent that happened while early in the learning stages of their career having to do with lights and fire hazzards.

Here's the lights I've been using:

http://www.gelighting.com/na/home_lighting/products/general_purpose/energy_saving.htm

Soft white spiral flourescents. I've gotten good consistent color out of them and haven't seen any flickering/color shifting.

Plus, after 5 hours of shooting with them on, I could unscrew the bulb with my bare hand without turning off the light...they hardly generate any heat at all...your actors will love you for buying these. I run them in a standard $5 clamp on scoop reflector light from home depot. the bulbs are about $3 a piece in packs of 4. They also require about 1/3 the power to run for the same amount of light, so you can put more light on a circuit (great if you're running off a car battery with a cigarette lighter adapter :) ).

You should never have problems with any gels or diffusion material melting with these.

Cole, did you use any diffusion? How much light does it produce? Finally, do you have any clips or stills taken with these lights?

the softer lit scenes here have no diffusion at all:

http://www.yafiunderground.com/Video/Reel.wmv

no diffusion, 28 watt light is rated at 100 watt equiv (according to GE). These shots were actually using the phillips marathon line of bulbs, but they dim rather quickly when you move/bang them around alot. The GE's have a warranty too :). The first day we shot with halogen worklights and we had to take cool down breaks as the actors would get too hot in the little space we had...it was horrible. With the flourescents, I have a couple of scenes with the light being held up in a corner by my AD, barehanded...we were out of light stands.

shot lighting in the clip:
1-(F)lourescent
2-(H)alogen
3-(N)atural
4-N
5-N
6-N + (B)ounce
7-N
8-N + B
9-F
10-F
11-F + (S)treet
12-F
13-F
14-F
15-F
16-H + F
17-(S)odium (V)apor
18-SV
19-H

no diffusion, 28 watt light is rated at 100 watt equiv (according to GE). These shots were actually using the phillips marathon line of bulbs, but they dim rather quickly when you move/bang them around alot. The GE's have a warranty too :). The first day we shot with halogen worklights and we had to take cool down breaks as the actors would get too hot in the little space we had...it was horrible. With the flourescents, I have a couple of scenes with the light being held up in a corner by my AD, barehanded...we were out of light stands.

Thank you for that. I had exactly the same problem with work lights on my last shoot, so I am very wary now. Nevertheless, I am eyeing the Rostronics/Britek kit, which supposedly has "cool" tungsten lights. Your fluorescents don't look bad, but it is hard to say anything definitive based on a compressed video. How many bulbs did it take to light the first scene?

3 bulbs right side-high (move closer and farther to adjust contrast), 1 left side-low for fill, 1 high right back for rim light

(shadow in frame due to overscan issues with the viewfinder in XL1s-grumble...I now use an external LCD for all framing)

Not in any order of importance

Looking good. Professional. Great tools for the artist

Long lasting.. quality is an important issue

Company support. who is this company with cheap lights

Lights are your best investment. cameras change but investing in good lighting can be one of the most important decisions you can make

Accessories and light control. As you grow will your lights grow with you or become obsolite or limited in use.
Grids, www.liteshaper.com, www.chimeralighting.com
Dedo lights.. true lighting tools.
Arri. Mole.

Is this a long range plan or just something you want to try?
Avoid wasting money on cheap stuff.
sometimes cheap is the most expensive way to go.

chimera 8000 or 8005 can be a great begining.
Get a avenger a 475b convertable boom, a hairlight

peace out.. I hope I help.. good luck

r
Maybe this recent link will help. Whatever you get. as long as it works.. it ok. rv
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=63531








This is probably going to seem like a completely silly question......but ...what is the difference between a light for filmmaking that costs from $600 upwards.... compared to the lights you can buy at the hardware for $30?????

I've been using $30 150w Halogen lights for indoors with very nice results. They can be hung from anything at any level and I've used different almost sheer materials and colours on stands in front of the lights (furthur enough away to avoid them becoming hot).....and I have found these lights can then create very attractive different effects/moods and have been very happy with them....but...

Now..Im really curious to know...am I missing something here? What would the $600 and upwards lights give that Im not getting now? I want to know if Im missing out on something truly major by not forking out bigger dollars for a few lights???

Can anyone please shed some.......um.....light.......on this issue for me?

Tracey

Well Richard.....

I have been using my cheap and nasty lights for quite a while now...and while they are a damn nusiance in many ways, they have also been getting the job done!! I think for most people starting out in filmmaking as a hobby, they are the way to go. I do think upgrading from cheap to decent/expensive should happen as your filmmaking skills and commitment increase.

I must confess however, that after the last 6 months of using Bunnings lights, I am now actually a bit 'OVER' improvising and fiddling around with my cheap lights. Thats the thing I've realised about lights made for things other than filmmaking(they do indeed require a lot more time and effort to get a good effect and so on).

So....... I finally purchased my first REAL light, the seedling of what I suspect will be a gradual building of a decent collection. It's definately a nice thing to have, and barn doors are kind of cute....


Tracey