Dealer just quoted me:

PDW-F330L [without lens] approx list price GBP 10,500
PDW-F330K [with lens] approx list price GBP 13,800
Availability March

PDW-F350L [without lens] approx list price GBP 15,900
Availability March.

Doesn't say what lens though!

Dealer just quoted me:
PDW-F330L [without lens] approx list price GBP 10,500
PDW-F330K [with lens] approx list price GBP 13,800
Availability March
Doesn't say what lens though!

It's not a high definition lens that's darn sure. It's either a pro-video most likely or maybe a low level broadcast lens if there is such a thing. The only High Def 1/2" lens i know about is the Fujinon (HSs18x5.5B RD) and that's around $7500. if not more.

Canon also have an 1/2 inch HD lens at that price

10,500 GBP = $18,200 USD

I thought Sony has a $16,800 MSRP on the F330 (Body Only)
Was your quote with a some Anton Bauer batteries or something?

It's to my understanding that the Auto Focus Canon HD lens will selll for $7500 and the Fujinon Manual HD lens for $13,000.

I got the XDCAM sales DVD from Sony a few weeks ago. It's old and does not have the HD cameras in it, but the XDCAM optical disc part is the same. I had not considered moving toward a tapeless world until I watched the DVD and read the pdf's, etc. The whole XDCAM concept has some excellent advantages. Sony is saying its' testing is proving even better ruggedness than tape, with accelerated testing showing 50 years of storage. They also say temperature extremes have no effect on recording.

The discs are about $30 (U.S.), and in the HD mode I seem to recall that you can get about an hour at 35mbs (maybe it's 50 minutes, I don't remember for sure). That puts the 35mbs recording at about the same price as DVCAM tape. No need to transfer all your footage to another format as you do with pricier solid state recording.

I also like the way you can access scenes instantly. You see thumbnails on the beginning frame of every take on the camera's flipout screen, and you can scroll through them with the cursor, click on one you want to see, and then be ready to shoot again in an instant. That resonates with me because I shoot mostly with a DSR500 and use PD184 tapes a lot. On my last shoot, with clients around, I was always having to rewind way back in the tape so they could check continuity, then FF back to the tail and cue up and double check everything to make sure I wasn't recording over something or leaving a time code break. And the proxy files are cool too for rough cutting and organizing archival stuff.

Somewhere I read they will come out with a 2/3" chip XDCAM HD camera sometime soon. That could mean next year, who knows. I've never thought about going down to a 1/2" chip camera before, but this new one has possibilities.

Interesting. Although I wouldn't know these tech specs myself. Maybe Graeme can tell us more if he's reading?

It's a tough question. I think it's about 2.5:1 - Remember the 35mbits is variable though, so that makes it even more complex. The quality I saw looked very good, but...

Graeme

The variable frame rate is not quite as cool as you'd think though.

It's limited - in PAL modes, you can't go above 50fps, so if you want 60fps, you need to switch to NTSC modes. At least it's "dual standard".

However, at frame rates above 25fps or 30fps respectively, it records half resolution frames!!!! Yes, it ceases to be properly fully progressive. I guess it just embeds into 1080i. Ouch. So the vari-frame modes give you 540p - oh dear....

Graeme

10,500 GBP = $18,200 USD

I thought Sony has a $16,800 MSRP on the F330 (Body Only)
Was your quote with a some Anton Bauer batteries or something?
.

We get higher prices in over here in the UK, EVERYTHING is more expensive than in the US

I had a brief play with the F350 today. I couldn't make any judgement on the picture as it wasn't hooked up to a monitor. They did have a HD demo playing though which looked pretty nice.

The camera itself is definitely not aimed to compete with the current SD 2/3" models. That much is apparent by the setup options which although they have quite a lot of options did seem more limited than the current cameras. For example the gamma modes were more like the old 570 series, and I get the feeling that the FILM mode means crushed blacks etc rather than something like the Panasonic curves.

The variable framerates cannot be adjusted on the fly. They have to be set before a shot, so no speed ramping. And the framerate that the camera records is shown live in the viewfinder which can make things difficult at lower framerates for things like focussing on the fly. By 'live' I mean that you will see the viewfinder updated at 1fps, 2fps or whatever you set it to, and then on playback it is played at 25fps thus getting the overcrank or undercrank effect. It would have been nice if it could have just captured the frames it needed transparently without affecting the frame update in the viewfinder, but I don't know if this would technically be possible(?)

I hope to be evaluating it in much more detail at some point in the near future.

I would comment on the HVX200. But I'll keep those opinions to myself. although I have posted them on other forums. I thought I'd keep Chris's place clean ;)

I had a play with the 350 at Videoforum yesterday.

Firstly, they are bulkier than I had expected, very similar to a HDW 750.

I thought the image was decent, but not as good as the HDCAM cameras. The best I can describe it is half way between HDV and HDCAM - just like you would expect I guess. There was noticable CA even with a decent Canon HD glass. The Sony rep said it may be from the prism more than the lens.

The camera handles just like any other pro Sony, no suprises. The XDCAM HD system looks good. I like the built in backup aspect, it is a shame the deck's expensive. Could the discs be read in a Blu-Ray drive once they come out? If so it would be very appealling. I can certainly see the camera being very appealing for HD broadcast as long as there is the support for post.

Simon beat me to it! I take it you were at VideoForum?

The 350 was hooked up to the LCD when I was playing first thing on Tuesday, but someone must have broken something, because by the afternoon it wasn't and we couldn't get it back up again.

Simon,

It is to my understanding that if you just want to shoot and edit with the XDCAM, there is no need for a deck..am I right?

Mike, were you looking at the 330 (silver) or the 350 (black)? The 350 I was looking at had a really crappy piece of Canon glass on it (not even HD glass!) The 330 had the Canon lens that was designed for it though.

I would say it is smaller than the 750, but not by much. The 750 uses an IMX shell like the current SD XDCAM's. the HD XDCAM uses a similar body to the 450. Although I thought it was quite heavy considering. It did actually feel heavier than my 510!

The disk can't be read in a Blu-Ray drive no. But for the level of production the 330 and 350 are aimed at, due to the use of disc rather than tape, they can be used as decks quite effectively without worry.

Post support is the only real sticking point. Apparently Avid already has support for it in their higher end NLE's (which I suppose kind of defies the point of a low cost HD solution!) There is also one other that I can't mention. As for other companies I don't know.

I'm torn. I know for low budget stuff this camera would be fantastic. But the price still seems a bit steep. I was quoted 20k UKP for the camera without lens for the 350. The 330 is cheaper of course, but no variable framerates. £20k almost buys a PDW530! I hope the salesman was misquoting the Dollars figure by mistake. £20k sounds too much. EVen if it cost $25k that is still only around 13k UKP which is more reasonable.

Simon beat me to it! I take it you were at VideoForum?

The 350 was hooked up to the LCD when I was playing first thing on Tuesday, but someone must have broken something, because by the afternoon it wasn't and we couldn't get it back up again.

Yep, was at Video Forum today. The LCD was just playing a demo off the deck today.

Scott, you are right. A deck is more practical, but the cameras can be used quite effectively as decks.

Mike, were you looking at the 330 (silver) or the 350 (black)? The 350 I was looking at had a really crappy piece of Canon glass on it (not even HD glass!) The 330 had the Canon lens that was designed for it though.

I was looking at the 350 mainly.

I'm sure you are right about the lens. To be honest I was concentrating on the camera and trying to figure out the frame rates, unsuccessfully. Did you see it with the 2/3" lens on a converter? The rep commented on it saying you could put "decent 2/3" glass on it" and I took that to mean that is what they had done. Sorry, a careless error, discard my comment.

Anyway, it still looked pretty sharp on the LCD, but a crappy lens could explain the CA. The recorded footage also showed a fair bit of abberation. That was when I asked the rep about it and he mentioned the prism.

My point was that the prism/CA may be worth testing if you get one on test drive. Like anything at these shows, my "play" was pretty rushed.

I'm curious if transferring data out of the NLE to the disk in the camera can be done via firewire. If so, why buy a deck?

I didn't see it with the 2/3" adaptor. But honestly I don't think I would be interested because of the loss of field of view (1.37 times the focal length of the lens you are using).

I will definitely give the CA very close examination if I manage to test one.

Scott, the XDCAM cameras and decks have two ways of transferring via firewire. The first is via standard footage playback as per any other firewire camera. The XDCAM HD can record in a format compatible with current NLE's. But I am not sure if the 35mbps variable datarate can be played through firewire.

The second method is called FAM (File Access Mode). When this is enabled the camera acts like another drive on the computer and the video files can be dragged and dropped onto your hard drive much like digital photos from a stills camera.

The SD cameras also have an Ethernet option via an optional card, but I am not sure if the new XDCAM HD's can do this.

That's good news! So while in FAM I can drag and drop video files to the NLE and drag and drop back to the camera disk. That's nice! I am really looking forward to NAB this year and getting a hands on look at this camera. One thing about the pricing, from the brochure the only real difference I see between the F330 and the F350 is the SDI out and variable framerates. F330 $16,800 MSRP
and the F350 at $25,000. That's a big price difference. So I guess the question is how bad do I want the variable framerate?

You can drag right onto the timeline from the disc yes. But the better method is to copy the files you want to your hard drive first for much faster access. I wouldn't recommend editing from the disc.

Generally I use either PDZ1 or double click on the proxy files in the Sub folder on the disc to view them in the MXF viewer to quickly see which files I want. Then I just go to the Clips folder of the disc and copy the equivalent clip numbers in high res form to my editing hard drive.

Your final edit will most probably be output to DVD or video of some kind. So no need to copy or create MXF files back to disc usually. When the camera formats an XDCAM disc it reserves 500mb for general storage.

So when I finish a project that I want to keep I will copy my NLE file (in my case a Vegas VEG) to this General folder on the disc that contains the original footage. I will also copy any supplementary files such as title graphics or animation I have created (or if animations are too large I just output back to the disc as per normal playback and the camera creates the file on the disc for me in the CLIP and SUB folders). This way if I want to recreate a project I have all the original clips plus my NLE and supplementary files in one tidy archive. You can even copy the script there too if you want. Anything really.

I am not sure about the price difference between the 330 and 350. It does seem a lot for HD SDI and variable framerate abilities.

It's not how badly you want the variable frame rates, but how bad the >30fps framesrates look. They're half rez.

Graeme

edius will edit xdcam natively off the disc and in rt and i know vegas is suppose to have an update as well...

The Sony people said they'd got pretty much everyone lined up to edit it.

Graeme

I didn't see it with the 2/3" adaptor. But honestly I don't think I would be interested because of the loss of field of view (1.37 times the focal length of the lens you are using).


I sounds like it had a different lens on when I saw it then.


So when I finish a project that I want to keep I will copy my NLE file (in my case a Vegas VEG) to this General folder on the disc that contains the original footage. I will also copy any supplementary files such as title graphics or animation I have created (or if animations are too large I just output back to the disc as per normal playback and the camera creates the file on the disc for me in the CLIP and SUB folders). This way if I want to recreate a project I have all the original clips plus my NLE and supplementary files in one tidy archive. You can even copy the script there too if you want. Anything really.


That's pretty handy. All the tapes and DVD's I have stacked up!

edius will edit xdcam natively off the disc and in rt and i know vegas is suppose to have an update as well...

The FAM dragging and dropping off the disc is handled by Sony drivers that come with the camera. The camera acts like another drive. So the ability to drag and drop from the disc onto the timeline is not special feature of the NLE software.

The reality is that you want to copy the files to your hard drive. The access speed of the disc is too slow to be editing directly from it. It can be done. Its just that I wouldn't recommend it. With an XDCAM deck it may be more doable. Transfer speed from disc of the high res DVCAM footage is around 2.5-3 times realtime. With IMX50 it is more like 1.5-2x. Off the camera that is. The decks are nearly twice as fast due to dual pickup lasers.

So the ability to drag and drop from the disc onto the timeline is not special feature of the NLE software..

actually the special part is being able to edit xdcam footage natively on a laptop in a hotel in rt with an nle thats under a $1000...without using any sony softyware...

currently edius stands alone....

Nope. Afraid not. Vegas 6 is the only NLE under $1000 that will take both DVCAM and IMX50 XDCAM files out of the box. Edius I believe only takes IMX50 but not the DVCAM files, unless they have updated the software since I last looked.

Nope. Afraid not. Vegas 6 is the only NLE under $1000 that will take both DVCAM and IMX50 XDCAM files out of the box. Edius I believe only takes IMX50 but not the DVCAM files, unless they have updated the software since I last looked.

actually edius has been editing dvcam files since version one...i don't have vegas 6 yet i heard it had mxf plugin for xdcam decks is that the same as xdcamHD? if so thats great news...

No, I'm talking about DVCAM MXF files from the XDCAM not standard DVCAM files.

XDCAM records two formats. DVCAM and IMX50, and places them in MXF wrapper files. Edius could only read the IMX50 variation of these XDCAM files the last I researched.

Vegas doesn't need a plugin for XDCAM. It accepts it as standard now. It doesn't accept XDCAM HD files yet though.

It doesn't accept XDCAM HD files yet though.


ahh i see so edius is the only under $1000 that will edit xdcam hd files...

Umm no. I don't think Eduis 3 accepts XDCAM HD files either. Maybe after NAB.

Umm no. I don't think Eduis 3 accepts XDCAM HD files either. Maybe after NAB.


sure does it has been for the last two months...

There's nothing on the Canopus site that says anything about XDCAM HD. Only support for XDCAM SD (and the last time I researched it for an article for Showreel they only supported the IMX variation).