Can't find it in the manual, but can you run a firewire preview out of a FCP timeline through the camera to a component HD monitor?

Manual pretty much says no (Page 87, I think)... but I WOULD like to hear of someone trying this...

David,

The answer is both yes, and no.

You can get static, single-frame HD previews out firewire but not real-time playback. For that you need either a Kona, Blackmagic or other dedicated HD-video I/O card. Doing so negates using the camera as an interface.

Apparently you can output a sd signal. This would be great for color correction as you can use existing sd monitors. Have you looked at the price of hd monitors?!

Apparently you can output a sd signal. This would be great for color correction as you can use existing sd monitors. Have you looked at the price of hd monitors?!

Color correcting HD footage through an SD monitor will only get you in the ballpark. HD and SD handle color in very different ways.

I find in my HD->SD downconverts that the image tends to pick up much more contrast. HD is also more tolerant of saturated colors, where SD will have buzz and dot-crawl problems (when you're checking with a composite signal, which you should do once in a while)

In the end, if you're just a hobbyist, then I suppose the above is cool. But if you're delivering HD masters (even HDV), then you should take care.

David,

The answer is both yes, and no.

You can get static, single-frame HD previews out firewire but not real-time playback. For that you need either a Kona, Blackmagic or other dedicated HD-video I/O card. Doing so negates using the camera as an interface.

Are you saying that if hooked up to FCP via firewire the camera will output via the component connection a single frame to an HD monitor? Please clarify. If this is the case at least you could see somewhat what your colors look like on a proper HD monitor.

Can you be more specific as to what you mean?

Marty,

Until you try this yourself and actually see what happens it's a bit tricky to fully comprehend; I'll try to clarify as best I can:

If you playback an HD clip either from the viewer or the timeline and your output is through firewire, you will only see static frames, not real-time playback. It has nothing to do with if a camera acting as an intermediate connection or not.

For example: Pull up an HD clip (like one of Kaku's HVX samples) and play it. You'll see the real-time playback on your Mac monitor, but all you'll see through your firewire output is the very first frame from where the playhead started. The next frame you see will be where the playhead stops - but nothing in between.

Real-time playback in HD requires an HD-capable video card. Firewire literally can't keep up with HD content in full playback mode, it can only show static, single frames, one at a time.

If that doesn't clear it up you'll have to either ask for Barry or somoene else to give a better explanation - or try it yourself.

Thanks for the explanation but there is one thing that I am still not clear about. I thought the Panasonic DVCPRO-HD deck was designed to interface with a firewire connection to transfer from a NLE to tape. I may be wrong but I also thought firewire was more than capable of outputting realtime HD. It sounds like you are saying you see the first frame and last frame only. What if you scrub? and stop on the timeline somewhere? Does it show that frame?
I'd try it myself but Panasonic isn't cooperating with sending enough cameras to get mine!

Thanks!
Marty

The best thing you can do to get your questions answered is to download the test clips Kaku shot with the HVX that are listed on this forum. Import them into your FCP timeline and see what happens. It will all make sense then.

The best thing you can do to get your questions answered is to download the test clips Kaku shot with the HVX that are listed on this forum. Import them into your FCP timeline and see what happens. It will all make sense then.

I have downloaded Kakos clips. I don't have the HVX yet so I can't see what it does. All I want to know is if the still images appear on the output of the HVX to a HD monitor. The manual all but says output from components is not possible when firewire in is used. Your comment made it sound like something comes out of the component outs but it is not streaming. Just a static frame.

If I had the HVX I would be posting the answer to this question and not asking it.

I can't answer definitively yet, but as soon as I have some sort of Mac here I'll be able to.

Okay, just tried it through Avid on the PC, and it appears that the manual is correct, there is no component output when doing a firewire input (at least in HD mode, didn't try in DV or DV50 mode). You can output from the computer timeline and see the results on the camera's LCD, and you can tell the camera to record the incoming data stream onto the P2 card, but it doesn't show a live E-E component output.

Don't know if it shows S-video or Composite, I'm assuming it does...

The problem would not be the firewire bandwidth, as stated above, hdv can
travel over the firewire no problem. The problem, I assume, is the realtime
encoding of the HDV signal. For it to travel over firewire and be understood
by your camera it needs to be in HDV (mpeg-2) format. As far as I know it is
impossible or very difficult to encode that format in realtime. I also doubt it
would look good (enough for what you need to see on the screen).

Perhaps this will change if they can use some dedicated hardware MPEG-2
encoder. I assume those dedicated boards like the decklink that over HD out
will also use less or no compression. Which may be a good thing for color
correction etc.

The problem, I assume, is the realtime
encoding of the HDV signal. For it to travel over firewire and be understood
by your camera it needs to be in HDV (mpeg-2) format.

Wrong camera! :)

1) FireWire can move DV100.

2) Question -- if you feed the FireWire output from one HVX to another HVX, does the second one output real-time HD via component? If so, then the HVX can de-compress DV100 on the fly. I can't see why it can't -- despite the reported test. Perhaps it's a copy-protection restriction.

3) To work, FCP must use CPU cycles to compress video to DV100 while also playing the uncompressed on your Mac's monitor. So the question is -- does FCP even try to output DV100 during playback? I expect it does not.

4) You do not want to use an SD monitor for HD CC. Different color spaces.

2) Question -- if you feed the FireWire output from one HVX to another HVX, does the second one output real-time HD via component?
No. No component output of firewire input, as the manual says.

If so, then the HVX can de-compress DV100 on the fly.
It does decompress it; you can see it on the LCD. It just doesn't travel out the component outputs at the same time. Don't know why.

3) To work, FCP must use CPU cycles to compress video to DV100 while also playing the uncompressed on your Mac's monitor. So the question is -- does FCP even try to output DV100 during playback? I expect it does not.
Haven't tried it with FCP, but Avid does it; plays the footage in the computer monitor and also outputs the full 1080 DV100 stream through the firewire, so I don't know why FCP wouldn't do the same.

4) You do not want to use an SD monitor for HD CC. Different color spaces.

Just curious... What does one use to color correct HD? Specifically 1080/24p DVCProHD? The Pro LCDs out there are all 1280x720, great for 720p. But what about 1080? Do I really need a $20K CRT?

Okay, just tried it through Avid on the PC, and it appears that the manual is correct, there is no component output when doing a firewire input (at least in HD mode, didn't try in DV or DV50 mode).

Barry, thanks so much for testing this!

Don't know if it shows S-video or Composite, I'm assuming it does...

Hmmm.... why? I would assume it's not doing an analog conversion at all... why would it output composite but not component?

Also... can you enlighten us on that "still frame out the component output" issue in this thread? Does the component out show still frames, and can they be used for CC?

Again, Thanks!
-Barry

why would it output composite but not component?


IF it outputs composite and S-video but not component -- I suspect its a copy-protection restriction.

The industry is moving very rapidly to carrying "to your HDTV" signal only via HDMI with HDCP. That will enable the content copyright owner to set a bit and either disable component output or cause component to be no better than 480p.

Allowing 1394 to HD component leaves a loophole in this pro-Hollywood scheme. A camcorder could be used as a "converter."

Pro equipment is moving rapidly toward the use HD-SDI for transfer of HD.

Also... can you enlighten us on that "still frame out the component output" issue in this thread? Does the component out show still frames, and can they be used for CC?
Can't clarify anything on that. I saw no frames, still or otherwise, on the component output. The monitor remained black.

Allowing 1394 to HD component leaves a loophole in this pro-Hollywood scheme. A camcorder could be used as a "converter."
Yeah, but -- that makes no sense, because you can record the footage, and then turn around and play it back out the component outputs. There's no copy protection in place. If someone had a high-capacity card (eventually there'll be 128gb cards capable of hours of HD) they could just record it and then play it out...

Yeah, but -- that makes no sense, because you can record the footage, and then turn around and play it back out the component outputs.

Remember when the FX1 came-out that Sony officially stated that you will not be able to feed 1394 into a Blu-ray recorder for "copyright"reasons. Yet, they said you would be able to bring in HDV to an NLE and then write it to BR.

Which, of course, equally makes no sense.

The key seems to be "direct conversion."

Once you record and playback -- the device stops being a "converter" and becomes a VTR. Hence whatever is input is compressed and uncompressed.

I think we will see such "no sense" blocks all designed to appease Hollywood.

Yeah, but -- that makes no sense, because you can record the footage, and then turn around and play it back out the component outputs. There's no copy protection in place. If someone had a high-capacity card (eventually there'll be 128gb cards capable of hours of HD) they could just record it and then play it out...

No sense, but not uncommon, I guess. iTunes doesn't let you share downloaded files... but you can burn them on CDs (uncompressed) and do what you will with them.

Also, in the audio world, it's been kind of a "price of entry" thing. Pro-level equipmet often allows defeating of CSS, while consumer-level equipment doesn't....

Here's my stoopid question, since I so far have no HDTV and haven't found a 100% solid answer on the web:

Composite and S-Video connections are only SD, right?

----

And, if so, this means the HVX outputs an SD signal on those outputs whenever shooting? So that, all I need is a cheapo MiniDV or D8 camcorder connected via S-Video to have an "emergency" SD backup on tape?

I know the quality will relatively suck, but it's something! Most everything i do is live and critical!

Yes composite and s-video are SD-only. And you can also configure the component outputs to downconvert to SD too.

Yes, the HVX outputs an SD signal on s-video and composite at all times. Yes, you could make an "emergency" backup like that. No, you wouldn't be too happy with the quality, I'm sure... but you could do what you're asking.

barry green,

will going component out from the hvx to component in on a dell 2405 work for viewing 1080p footage? is this the cheapest way to viewing w/ a nle? if i don't want to use my camera, will a black magic card and an hdlink be the next cheapest solution? thanks.

also, what do you guys think about using the sony PVM-14L5 for viewing 1080p and 720p footage? looking to go possibly this route as well...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=262238&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

barry green,

will going component out from the hvx to component in on a dell 2405 work for viewing 1080p footage? is this the cheapest way to viewing w/ a nle? if i don't want to use my camera, will a black magic card and an hdlink be the next cheapest solution? thanks.


This would be the cheapest way if it actually worked. But apparently it doesn't. The component outs do not send a signal when the HVX is being fed a digital DVCPRO-HD stream into its 1394 ports. Sad but true. And although Barry would probably argue this, I feel it is a political move to limit the cameras use as a digital converter. They are either protecting sales of the higher end DVCPRO-HD deck (which does work with a NLE such as FCP) or are restricted by certain organizations that wish to prevent digital copies of copyrighted materials from being duplicated this way. There is another thread out there to discuss this theory, I won't get into it nor do I believe it!

Either way it comes down to you cannot see HD out to a monitor from a NLE without using a Kona or Decklink or something like that. You are talking some $$$ to do it.

For whatever reason the camera will not. Bummer.

On another note...Barry you said that it ouputs SD via the composite and SVideo at all times. Even when scrubbing the timeline in FCP or AVID in HD? I don't know if that would help at all but maybe seeing an SD version on an NTSC monitor might do something for those of us without Kona style interfaces....

thanks!