Joseph - thanks for the footage- I'm more hopeful we're gonna see some great things from these little jewels. Looks far better than dv to me.
ps- I too was having problems viewing until I tried vlc. Kurth

Now, if only we could get a camcorder like this with a better CCD/CMOS x 3, and 25Mbps H.264. They can have a bunch of my money for that!

Joseph - if it's not asking too much would you be able to get some footage of some people? Perhaps some head shots and some bust-up shots would be real interesting to see... just a thought.

Not sure what the buzz is about... this is a fun tech "toy" that maybe you can mount to a mini-plane or boom pole and get some fun shots with. This is not marketed to, nor begins to perform remotely close to anything professional or even pro-sumer.

I cant believe there is talk of lens adapters, filters, mini35mm etc. The resolution is nice but the compression is lossy and extremely noisy. Any motion causes it to look terrible. I have upconverted DV and it blows this out of the water, not sure what some of you are seeing when you say it is better than DV.

This camera is a neat, affordable, fun little camera that is a nice way to play around with HD on the cheap.



ash =o)

I think we're doing the usual which is what most of us on this forum like to do - pushing and testing the limits of the consumer technology that gets put in the palm of our hands.

By the way, you're not suggesting that DV cameras like the XL2, DVX or PD's are more than prosumer are you? ;)

Pro-sumer is a weird word... entry level professional more like. I dont see a lot of consumers using them and the vast majority of people are using them to make a living with. I am all for pushing the limits with available tools, I will probably get an HD1 to play around with, but not for serious work, maybe a quirky shot that is not possible with a bigger camera. I surely wont be looking for a 4X4 filter adapter or a matte box =o)



ash =o)

I have no idea what you're talking about, I'm perfectly happy with my pro HD1 setup... .

http://www.starcentral.ca/dvinfo/prohd1.jpg

LOL... where are the rods? Do you have to have a elf pull focus?




ash =o)

Pro-sumer is a weird word... entry level professional more like. I dont see a lot of consumers using them and the vast majority of people are using them to make a living with. I am all for pushing the limits with available tools, I will probably get an HD1 to play around with, but not for serious work, maybe a quirky shot that is not possible with a bigger camera. I surely wont be looking for a 4X4 filter adapter or a matte box =o)


Or top end consumer cameras modified ;).

I find the footage less than desirable for professional use too, but it is fun measuring and prodding it to get an indication of what to expect from the more advanced cameras next month.

You'll notice that a lot of people have been saying that it is worth keeping in your pocket for the odd on the spare of the moment shot that they can't get in time with their pro cams (news worthy shoot I guess, but also family shoots I imagine).

About the noise, ignore the first batches of clips that Joseph did in auto, the ones he did after that are improved out of sight (though still less than pro level) as they have little noise and better exposure, and this has helped compression enormously. The Japanese ones are also a good example (the water ones being the worse).


---------------------------------------------------

As far as Mini DV being better goes, I got no doubt that with motion this maybe the case, but I put this challenge down to anybody that wants to take it up:

Take the same shoot with and without motion, with both a DV camera and this camera, and display the HD at DV resolution (720*480) alongside the Mini-DV footage and compare for compression artifacts. Convert both to DVD, which is the common distribution format for many with this camera, and compare on a computer monitor. Now compare on an average CRT TV set, that usually has around 360 pixel resolution across. What you will find is that the MiniDV footage may win the first round, but once you get to DVD, you might find it the other way, once you get to display it on those cheap TV, you probably will find either they are very close, or that the HD1 wins. Why, because the lower res hides some of the compression faults, the lower you go the less they are obvious. The HD1 frame is not whole divisible by the DV frame, so macron block edges are going to be blurred somewhat, and compression problems a little. DVD works, generally, at lower bit rate than the HD1, and suffers some of the same compression problems, which it should also introduce to the conversion of the MiniDV footage, lowering the compression artifact difference, but also allowing the extra HD detail to contribute. At cheap TV resolution, now even the contents of the macro block should be obscured, the resolution is a straight division of DV resolution, so this will advantage the Mini-DV footage, as one way of coping with too much information in Mini-DV is to drop the resolution in half. So it could be suitable for some things.

Have a go, and prove me wrong.


Joseph,

25Mb/s h264, now that would be a descent HD format.

Dennis,

That is simply amazing! ;)

1 - Can you find a cam (even DV) with a complete exposure manual setting, two half-auto modes (Aperture priority and Shutter priority) for less than 800$ ?
2 - Do you appreciate that this cam is very very small and is able to deliver HD (in controlled conditions), and still photo comparable to dedicated cams ?

But, for me the best :
This cam has a picture signature : because of its specific artifacts, clips are immediatly identifiable and artisticaly satisfactory. We all want to record clips like baby child and late Joseph with their unique color balance. This could be the equivalent of polaroïd little cams loved by some professionals. Its a challenge to deliver a beautiful clip within the limits of the tool, and to share this experience with others.

Luc-Henri

Steve, what computer/speed are you running it on? Whats your impression of the clips, are we looking at the next HD10?


I was using my G4 iBook with 1GRAM which handles 720p30 in RT perfectly.

The clips play with audio in the Source, but once in the Timeline there is no audio because the Sanyo's audio is packed with the video -- just like HDV. We need a utility that pulls out the audio into an AIFF file. Just like in the good old days with the JVC! :)

+++++++++++

>>>>> Like the 720p30 JVC -- the exposure of the Sanyo MUST be locked at 1/30th second. You need motion blur to overcome the strobing artifacts from shooting at 30fps. So you MUST use S mode. <<<<<<

+++++++++++

I'm completely confused by the concept of setting ISO! All video cameras have a FIXED, small, range of sensitivity that depend on the where on the gamma curve the light input is. You can't change this sensitivity range! So what is Sanyo doing when select ISO?

Is this Sanyo's way of setting video GAIN? Which means "50" would be zero gain.

If so, then every doubling of ISO is equal to +6dB gain.

Steve, On my Powerbook G4 1.5 1G, I only get an acceptable result (720p mp4) with the VLC freeware, QT Player does not works well. For h264 (movie trailers) QTP is the best.

I agree with the S 1/30, but the min aperture is 8 and the ND filter is just one level. The last Joseph S30 panoramic is a little bit overexposed.

Luc-Henri

To further Wayne's point I'm going to take some of Josephs clips and convert them to DVD format just to see them and watch on my 42" plasma... I can also put the ISO on my site so others can download it, burn and watch too.

Anyone have any good suggestions as far as DVD burning software HD clips? I have a few but they don't know what to do with 16:9 footage and I prefer not to have to put the clips through after effects just to resize. I want a straight process if possible. I'm using PC.

I was using my G4 iBook with 1GRAM which handles 720p30 in RT perfectly.

The clips play with audio in the Source, but once in the Timeline there is no audio because the Sanyo's audio is packed with the video -- just like HDV. We need a utility that pulls out the audio into an AIFF file. Just like in the good old days with the JVC! :)


So, would a dual 1.66 Ghz MacBook Pro be able to edit it with room to spare? The debate now is what will we need to edit the h264 from the next gen pocket cameras coming next month (yep one month, one mpeg4 generation, who would have thought it four years ago).

What do you think of the quality of the footage people are now getting?

To further Wayne's point I'm going to take some of Josephs clips and convert them to DVD format just to see them and watch on my 42" plasma... I can also put the ISO on my site so others can download it, burn and watch too.

Anyone have any good suggestions as far as DVD burning software HD clips? I have a few but they don't know what to do with 16:9 footage and I prefer not to have to put the clips through after effects just to resize. I want a straight process if possible. I'm using PC.

Thanks, your Plasma should be at least 852 pixels across, so you should get full DVD res through component. Is Nero Recode any good, or is it like most?

http://www.sundancemediagroup.com/articles/frameserve.htm

I'm getting very busy with work again, so time is very limited. I don't know anyone here who wants to be in clip posted on the internet, but if I find someone I will. What h264 pocket camera is going to be out next month?

Wayne, MacBook Pro are now 1.83 Ghz min (They changed before sending them to first users). They are said very powerful on the HD field : able to display 1080p without drops. (better than the 2x2Ghz Powermac G5).
I did some edit tests with Imovie HD 5 IDVD 5 and the available Sanyo clips : that works well on my 2x2Ghz Powermac G5, very slow on my PB G4 1.5.
You can easily create a DVD playable from the 720p clips downsized at the DVD resolution.

Luc-Henri

I'm getting very busy with work again, so time is very limited. I don't know anyone here who wants to be in clip posted on the internet, but if I find someone I will. What h264 pocket camera is going to be out next month?

The news items on the Ambarella, state that cameras will be announced next month, and I think this is when the chip is becoming available to market.

I would like to see what Panasonic, JVC are doing first but I might be getting a h264 in the next couple of months, maybe even a Red camera by the end of the year.


Luc-Henri

I forgot to mention, there is the possibility that the new Ibook coming in the next month or two might be dual 1.6Ghz, but that is only a rumour going around for the last x months. We can only hope that Apple has the sense to do this.

"Anyone have any good suggestions as far as DVD burning software HD clips? I have a few but they don't know what to do with 16:9 footage and I prefer not to have to put the clips through after effects just to resize. I want a straight process if possible. I'm using PC."

Denis, I burnt some of Joseph's MPEG4 to DVD using Sonic DVDit 6 set in NTSC mode (in PAL mode it hung).

On my 21" ultrascan computer monitor the encode appeared to be flawless.

Sure, I don't know beyond that - but I often see some kind of encode degradation on this monitor and this time I didn't see any. Watching the disc was no different than watching the original file.

Yes, 16:9 just encodes automatically.

Wayne, I would most likley get any h264 poket camera as soon as it is available, as long as it's at least 720p. What is a "Red camera"?

Ash, why you are mildly perturbed by our testing the limits of a great little cam like this I don't understand.

It's got better manual controls than the PD1/HD1/HD10 - those controls were a nightmare!

I'd be surprised if you defended garden variety Super 8 film cameras while dismissing the Sanyo HD1.

As you know, many non-professional Super 8 film cameras make a great contribution.

Joseph,

Red is a 11Mp camera to be revealed at NAB, the forum is here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=110

From my experience and based on the quality I've seen from this HD cam so far, there really is no reason why I couldn't shoot an indie feature or short film project using this camera (or several of them) and actually have it screen at festivals.

Hm, I think I just created a challenge for myself.

(And to think I was going to waste $10k on an XLH1 just to make indie films)

And since they are so cheap you can have one recording at every angle to save time!

Wayne, yea sign me up. If I can afford it...

Joseph, I've checked the manual for Webcam functionality but can't seem to find it.

It's the 5th feature listed here though..

• Film in High Definition (Máx Resolution.
Film: 1,280 X 720)
• Zoom: Digital optic 10 x/10 x/Reproduction 58 x
• 3 Ways of Flash
• Raised Sensitivity in Clip Video
• Easiness “Webcam”
• Correcção de Movimento, Twinkle e
Noise of Wind in Clip Video
• Directa Impression saw handle USB (PictBridge)
• Timer of Automatic Detonation (2 the 10 second.)
• Ultra-Compacta
• Ultra-Leve
• Incorporated Stereo Microphone
• 2,0 Interface USB High-Speed
• Exit AV
• S-Vídeo Exit
(http://www.livingroom.org.au/photolog/reviews/miscellaneous/sanyo_xacti_hd1.php)

Just wondering whether you know?

Graham, I think it is in the software manual I posted. I read in my printed manual a section called "USING AS A PC CAMERA". It says use Windows XP SP2. It will work with Windows Messenger 5.0+, or MSN Messenger 7.0+. No zoom. 15FPS.

Thanks Joseph - bizarrely, I can't locate that section in the pdf.

Oh well, just good to know it can be used in that capacity.

Is it possible to shoot some 720p footage as soft as possible instead the unpleasant crisp look of a few of the linked samples?

It would be appreciated.

...
• Easiness “Webcam”
• Correcção de Movimento, Twinkle e
Noise of Wind in Clip Video
...What's this? Is it portuguese in the middle of an english spec text?

Thanks Joseph - bizarrely, I can't locate that section in the pdf.

Oh well, just good to know it can be used in that capacity.

Don't look in the main manual. Look in the file "Software_GB.pdf" posted elsewhere in this forum. Look on page 26. The first part of the text is:

USING AS A PC CAMERA
If running Windows XP, you can connect the camera to a computer and use it
as a PC camera. Before using your camera as a PC camera, please install
Windows XP SP2.


Paul

It's got better manual controls than the PD1/HD1/HD10 -- those controls were a nightmare!

After shooting the summer and fall with an HD100 I took my HD1 to Asia and fell back in love with it. Even rewrote my HD1/HD10 Shooting Guide because I realized I could use the HD1/HD10 just like the HD100 -- even though it doesn't have the controls you are "supposed" to have.

The JVC's are very EZ to shoot with if you use them like a PRO camera. It's a 1, 2, 3 step with either an HD100 or HD1.

Here's short film shot -- not mine -- with the JVC HD10.

http://medialab.ifc.com/film_detail.jsp?film_id=63&list=1

Steve, On my Powerbook G4 1.5 1G, I only get an acceptable result (720p mp4) with the VLC freeware, QT Player does not works well. For h264 (movie trailers) QTP is the best.

I agree with the S 1/30, but the min aperture is 8 and the ND filter is just one level. The last Joseph S30 panoramic is a little bit overexposed.

Luc-Henri

VLC doesn't play all that well either. My interest was in seeing if it could be edited in FCP. Maybe I'll try iMovieHD.

The S30 shot goes so far out of focus during the pan. I suspect he wasn't using manual focus. You just must not use AF except to set focus. Once a shot starts it must be off. If you don't not only may it go out of focus -- every tiny AF change wastes encoding power causing quality to drop.

I'm not sure it over-exposed -- its that the latitude is so great in the scene something has to give. It has great detail in the shadows.

"BTW you can not go higher then f6.8 in manual modes." Are you saying if you set the shutter-speed you can't go higher than 6.8?

Also, what ISO is being used?

User manual is giving F8 as the smalest aperture. But in a previous post, Joseph tell us than in A mode setting(IMO), he can't set an aperture smalest than 6.8. I suppose that in automatic mode or S mode the cam can set the aperture to 8. The other possibility is that F8 is reserved to still mode.
For ISO (ASA), I suppose it is kind of trick to make gain understandable to argentic still camera old users ?
He used the smallest one 50 ISO setting (said to be 100 ISO for video in user guide).
For focus, I think you are right, the panoramic is not so fast.
I am far to be a pro of video editing, but for me iMovieHD (#5 bundled with MacOSX G5 last year) works for basics needs, but is too slow on my PB. Works well with 2XG5 PowerMac.

Luc-Henri

Sure Steve, but the point I was making was strictly in relation to the relatively decent manual control allowance on the Sanyo, which reminded me about that old anomaly on the JVC HD1/0 - where one couldn't properly set the controls simultaneously, because setting one would knock another out.

Ultimately, the JVC HD1/0 is probably superior to the Sanyo HD1.

Not to drift off the point, but I find that short quite badly shot - mainly due to poor blocking and lighting, particularly in the bar. The poor acting obviously isn't relevant. When video is done badly, the consequences are very severe, no matter what the spec of the camera.

It is possible to record SD card mpeg4 720p30 and capture HD 4:2:2 through
component in same time? Thank you.

I wonder if it is possible to use HD1 when screen is closed.
As I read it from CNET news:
""Opening the screen turns on the camcorder. On paper, that's a sweet, natural feature that cuts down on the preparing-to-shoot checklist. In practice, though, it means that the screen must be open to record anything, which eats up battery power and looks silly when you're just recording audio.""

If not then how can sky divers or extreme guys use it?


Thanks in advance,
T.

There's no viewfinder Toenis... ;)

In manual the f stop seems to be limited to f6.8, but can go to 8 in auto.

Yes, the LCD needs to be open to record anything.

I think when I did the pans, the ISO was on auto.

Serge, I did one test where I recorded video while attached to a TV. It was with the s-video, not the component. The component output can only be used while the camera is in the charging base. The picture seemed to get much worse on the TV while the recording was taking place.

Am I smelling, a SHD1 shooting guide Steve? ;)

Many people might debate it's use as a primary camera, but I think these MPEG4/H264 style cameras still have a good place as back up/second/special purpose cameras. If the compression worked better, I would have a use for them. I have a friend that wants to do a documentary on a person, who is sort of like a athlete, and we could strap it to him.


Joseph and crew:

I am going to kick myself for this, as it is unlikely I will buy one to use it: but is it possible to get a better picture from this camera. Does a direct live computer, component, or web-cam hookup offer better compression, uncompressed, or anything?

Mounted on helmet or snowboard or on what-so-ever never depends on viewfinder either... ;)

I just meant the LCD is the only way to shoot on this model - apart from shooting blind...

Am I smelling, a SHD1 shooting guide Steve? ;)

I love cheap products that can do a great job IF you figure out the right path.

But, I think H.264 has the possibility of much better quality so I'll wait. I'm wondering if the next JVC will use the new AVC chip.

Also I don't have the cash for a Sanyo!

++++++++

iMovieHD works fine.

Ash, why you are mildly perturbed by our testing the limits of a great little cam like this I don't understand.

It's got better manual controls than the PD1/HD1/HD10 - those controls were a nightmare!

I'd be surprised if you defended garden variety Super 8 film cameras while dismissing the Sanyo HD1.

As you know, many non-professional Super 8 film cameras make a great contribution.


Testing? Fine... it just bugs me when people focus on resolution as if it is THE benchmark. My buddy has an HD1 and I was checking it out today, like I said, neat little toy. Does it have more resolution than an XL2? Sure... so what, it doesnt look near as good, not close. I guess you guys are judging solely on resolution? An image is limited by the sensor that recieves it and the glass it goes thru. In anything but sunlight the HD1 images are extremely noisy and uber-compressed. I was just thrown for a loop when I saw the length of this thread and talk of 35mm adapters... I personally dont get it... CLEARLY many others do!



ash =o)

Ash, there's a difference between being intrigued and being stupid.

Most people know virtually the only assets this camera has are it's physical size, slightly smaller than standard... and it's image resolution, slightly greater than standard.

Still, it's fun to test the boundaries!

I've directed a feature on Super 16mm and recently another feature on a JVC PD1. I chose the latter camera 18 months ago over the HD1 because I wanted to stick with 25p for the project. So when you say 'I guess you guys are judging solely on resolution?' you're quite wrong.

I certainly do not just pick the cam with the greatest resolution.

Danny Boyle did a great job with a Canon XL1S on 28 Days Later. He used roughly 8 cams. He could have done that on HDCAM if he'd wanted, they had approx 15 million, but he chose the XL1S and on the director's commentary says one reason was that personal handycams had become so ubiquitous: theirs was the look he wanted in a world where official systems had broken down. Buttressed by the respectable interchangeable lens system of the Canon, of course..

You wouldn't like it if someone dismissed an XL2 just because it wasn't HD. Don't dismiss this cam just because it isn't semi-pro.

In this brave new digital world it's not really a question of whether cameras are good or bad Ash - more whether they are suitable or unsuitable for a particular job. That's what I was trying to get at by bringing up Super 8. It was never meant to be semi-pro but definitely can be.

You're right, some people may get confused, think this camera is better than it is, but many of us do know what we are talking about.

But, I think H.264 has the possibility of much better quality so I'll wait. I'm wondering if the next JVC will use the new AVC chip.

I've been wondering that too, it would be a logical way to go, though camera standard support is not about logic that suits the customer. I posted an news article that indicated that the new camera would have both 720p and 1080i support, like the Ambarella chip, but it could be dual HDV support. But where is the pro version?

For the snowboarders :)

You can flip 180 degrees the lcd display so it stays laying over the camera but the camera will power on. Whith my old C1 i made a lot of videos skiing in my weekend past year. The result was not very profesional but fun to see later. I put the camera on my head with a strap!

Pd. My HD1 just arrived. Going to fill the card with some shots.

Regards.

Thanks Raf,

Sounds logical, wanted to be sure cause of the comment in cNet news about recording sound and lookin` silly with screen open :)...

I always preach, right camera for the job...as I noted I can see where this camera could have use, it is the talk of filters, adapters, etc. that had be baffled. At that point, why not just get a better camera?



ash =o)