"All censorships exist to prevent anyone from challenging current conceptions and existing institutions. All progress is initiated by challenging current conceptions, and executed by supplanting existing institutions. Consequently the first condition of progress is the removal of censorship."
~ Preface to Mrs. Warren's Profession by George Bernard Shaw

"The Internet treats censorship as a malfunction and routes around it."
~ John Perry Barlow

Hey Shannon - can I be so forward as to make a suggestion - forget about another forum site. This is the one. But a blog , I think would draw some readers. You seem to have alot to say about media . I , for one , have always got your jokes or style. I think it might fly. I check, when it's possible to get on line , Curtis' site daily, just like here. Give us another point of view . Chris' site should be kept clean of some directions because it's public - a blog can go where it wants. Just an idea. Kurth

I'm sorry but there wasn't going to be credibility to the shootout even before the mudslinging because each of the protagonists carries a brand agenda. An argument broke out over the terms of the spin being applied. Why would anyone expect more? Please let this die and learn from it.

I have no brand agenda. I was brought in because I know the HD100. Prior to the test I was well on my way to selling my HD100 for an HVX.

The proctors of the test, who were NOT Barry or Shannon ABSOLUTELY had no brand agenda. those people were Jay Nemeth and Adam Wilt.

I have to make that abundantly clear. Barry Green, nor Shannon, nor I was running the show that day. Adam Wilt and Jay were.

"All censorships exist to prevent anyone from challenging current conceptions and existing institutions.For Jarrod King: there is absolutely no "censorship" here whatsoever. There is only quality control. This site is my own private property, and I have the constitutionally protected right under Freedom of Speech to edit, delete or keep any content posted to it, as I see fit. In other words, no one can tell me what I must show here, and no one can tell me what I must take away (unless it involves libel, slander or infringement of someone else's copyrights).

Freedom of Speech guarantees me the right to remove content that I don't want my name or my brand to be associated with, such as profanity, vulgarity, overt sexuality, and political or religious viewpoints of any nature. Everybody who posts here has indicated their understanding of and agreement with my policy of removing or editing content that I do not wish to be associated with.

If you don't like the way I conduct my site, then you should exercise your own Freedom of Speech and start your own message board / blog / web site / whatever.

Jarrod, it is clear to me that you have no clear understanding at all of what censorship really is, or what consitutes Freedom of Speech, or that one person's rights end where another person's rights begin. It is my sincere hope for your sake that you become properly educated on these matters, instead of posting famous quotes that bear absolutely no relevance to the context of the proceedings here.

I have no brand agenda.For the sake of Nate Weaver and fellow contributors, I think I'm going to clarify for Tom Roper and others of the "conspiracy theory" ilk that publicly accusing anyone of having a brand agenda, or being a corporate shill, or carrying some hidden motive definitely constitutes flaming and will be treated as a violation of our forum policy.

I set up this community originally to get away from the finger-pointing types, and perhaps I've been lax recently with regard to keeping our streets clean for folks like Nate whom I'm honored to have here and for whom this community is specifically targeted.

Expect some janitorial service in the immediate future. Thanks,

This site is my own private property, and I have the constitutionally protected right under Freedom of Speech to edit, delete or keep any content posted to it, as I see fit. In other words, no one can tell me what I must show here, and no one can tell me what I must take away (unless it involves libel, slander or infringement of someone else's copyrights).

Actually Chris, the first amendment doesn't apply to your private property. You can do with it what you wish quite apart from the Constitution. That protects private parties from improper government action.

Moving ahead, my question is why aren't we here and elsewhere discussing performance and technical issues with the HVX 200?

As I read the various forums, something is occurring that is moving everybody off the topic into a lot of personal attack and other things.

I want to know what the footage looks like in comparison with the other HD and HDV offerings.

I ain't got a camera here in Spokane. I don't know anyone that has one with 1,200 miles of me, except perhaps Jarred in Vancouver and we don't exchange holiday cards.

What can we do to get some comparison footage of identical shots to anyone who wants them?

Actually Chris, the first amendment doesn't apply to your private property. You can do with it what you wish quite apart from the Constitution. That protects private parties from improper government action.That's even better. Thanks.

What can we do to get some comparison footage of identical shots to anyone who wants them?Who has this material? If it's Shannon Rawls, why doesn't he post it at his site? If it's Barry Green, why doesn't DVX User host it? I can't do anything with it, as there's no technical report to go with it. Shannon's observations focused on the people at the shootout, and not the hardware, so his report is not what I would call technically useful.

Footage has all been turned over to Adam. Expect an article on DV.com shortly, and a more in-depth/expanded version in the print magazine later.

Does anyone know how long it will take Adam's write up to be published? Will his article as be on dv.com? It's pretty hard to find DV magazine in canada, in fact I'm not even sure if I've seen it here ever.
Try Chapters or Indigo. I saw DV magazine there yesterday.

Chris,

We're all big boys and girls. If Shannon posted something wrong, a post from you could be the next post below it critiquing and arguing against it. Just removing it is censorship in the worst form. If you want your site to be the best it can be, you let the community work out its problems on its own naturally. Treating it like your own personal plaything will make many exercise their right to go elsewhere.

Evan: "It's pretty hard to find DV magazine in canada, in fact I'm not even sure if I've seen it here ever."

Look harder. I have seen it in every Coles/Chapters/Indigo books, large magazine shop, airport, bus depot accross the country. Some times it is stuffed in with the PC mags, other times with photography or sometime, if there is enough of them, with the other video magazines/home theater. It is by far the most popular magazine of the genre, so if your local stand doesn't carry it, tell it to do so and you will have the next issue.

I was caught up by this whole thing too, but now that Shannon and Barry have resolved their problems, why are we still arguing about it?
Shannon crossed a line (I very much wanted to read his article, and I did via Michael Pappas, but once read, I understand why it was removed, it was pretty personal but the thing was that it didn't contain ANY really useful information) and he talked it all out with Barry, who, I am sure, has already forgiven him.
They are both okay now with the thing, now let it rest for both.
I first also had a bit problems with the deleting of all those threads, but now I see I was wrong, because I understand: somebody who comes here over 3 years, and does a search about the cameras, and finds this thread, will only have a thread with people talking about eachother and not the camera. on the boards of IMDB, everybody just slanders each other and I think Chris just wants to not let that happen here and keep it like it was, which is good, even if it doesn't always have to have posts deleted. Sometimes it's better.
I was curious too, and it WAS entertaining, but it was rude too and out of place.

Let's go back to the cameras, the reason why we are here in the first place.

Treating it like your own personal plaything...And yet, that's exactly what any self-published website is, thanks to the amazing internet. Except I am taking mine a little more seriously. Including the correction of spelling errors, if I chose to do so.

...will make many exercise their right to go elsewhere.Wow, I really appreciate your concern, but I've been operating this place for more than four years pretty much the same way as I started, and have managed to attract over 20,000 members who have contributed more than 400,000 posts covering over 50,000 discussion topics, so you really have no cause for alarm there.

If Shannon posted something wrong, a post from you could be the next post below it critiquing and arguing against it.I choose not to operate that way. I choose not to associate this site with profanity, vulgarity, personal infighting or interpersonal politics. I choose not to promote senseless arguments in cyberspace. This is not a typical internet message board and never has been. This place does not operate as *you* think it should. It operates as *I* think it should. It is designed to appeal only to a particular kind of audience and is intended to attract only a certain kind interactivity from others who agree with the way things are conducted here. Most likely it is *not* the right place for you, so why waste your time trying to change something that you can't possibly affect? Why not take your own advice, and start your own deal and run it the way *you* want to?

Just removing it is censorship in the worst form.Again, Jarrod, you do not seem to understand what does and does not constitute "censorship" and you are expressing very clearly that you have no idea what censorship really is. Shannon Rawls has the entire original, unedited, unaltered text of his "report" right at his fingertips. He is free to post it on his own site, or somewhere else on the web as he sees fit. I am not stopping him in any way from doing that. As long as the DV Info Net brand is not associated with it, I don't care what he does with his report. He is not "censored" in any way, shape or form by me, or by anybody else.

I didn't want it on my boards because I don't want my name and the DV Info Net brand associated with the profanity, accusations and highly personal remarks of a very sensitive nature that were contained in his report. Whether it's something he said, or whether it's pornography for example, or some political statement for example, it's my choice as to what my name and my brand are associated with. Nobody can force that choice upon me. I have the right to determine what my name and my brand is attached to. That isn't "censorship," that's my personal freedom of choice.

Based on your feedback so far, I have no expectation that you can comprehend such a simple concept.

If you want your site to be the best it can be, you let the community work out its problems on its own naturally.I do want my site to be the best it can be, and I've had very good luck so far with my current method of operation. I get a lot of very positive feedback about this, so I see no desire to change. Thanks anyway,

Jarrod

Unfortunately 'we' are all not big boys and girls. This is why moderation is needed. This is not a forum where anything goes. If you want that goto IMDB or ROTTENTOMATOES. Without Mr Hurd (Or any Moderators) doing his job this place would be Anarchy.

Censorship is most definately needed as is deletions, lock-downs, bans and all other unpleasant methods to corral these places.

Chris runs one of the best sites on the NET period. And you are missing one point:

It is Chris's personal plaything. At the end of the day, he is the law.

Hi,
Since the thread appears to be drifting back towards results, etc., I'm as curious about the outcome as anybody. However, I've made my choice already (the day before I read about the shoot-out!), and have camera in hand. I'm wondering, will anybody's write contain techniques, tricks, etc., used in the execution of the tests? Resolution charts are all well and good (if I knew how to read one and had money to buy a good one), but if any of the more "real-world" tests were executed, what types of possibly not-widely-known tricks were used to make the different cameras perform to the max, or to more easily make the camera jump? I'm primarily interested in the Sony camera, but the one I just bought won't be the last camera I buy.

Anyhow, I'm very very interested in reading that sort of information from the camera operators.

Thanks,
Matt

Hi,
I'm wondering, will anybody's write contain techniques, tricks, etc., used in the execution of the tests? Resolution charts are all well and good (if I knew how to read one and had money to buy a good one), but if any of the more "real-world" tests were executed, what types of possibly not-widely-known tricks were used to make the different cameras perform to the max, or to more easily make the camera jump? I'm primarily interested in the Sony camera, but the one I just bought won't be the last camera I buy.

Anyhow, I'm very very interested in reading that sort of information from the camera operators.

Thanks,
Matt

That's what this whole forum is about... all the various sub-forums and the individual threads going back over 2yrs and more. As much as it's a very time consuming task to search through all the relevant threads that'll provide the "tips/tricks" that you'll find most helpful to yourself personally - be assured that the answers you want are here.

I would have liked for the camera manufacturers themselves to have provided updating "tips/tricks" for their products... but they seem to believe that their role is to simply provide the technology that we stretch the boundaries and capabilities of, so they can sell more units off the back of free effort from early adoptors. I'd bet that Sony, JVC, Canon and Panasonic scan this forum for the sort of tips/tricks they eventually use to convince prospective purchasers that their unit will "fit the bill"!

The fact that you may search this and every other forum dealing with HD/HDV video for THE definitive answer/s on the "perfect" combination of hardware/software, working techniques and settings for several lifetimes, is just indicative of how each solution is a personal solution that was valid with the technology available at that given time.

You may be better served - now that you have a HDV camcorder - to just get out there and shoot as much material as you can, using as many setting combinations as you can... and just see what gives the results you like best, which is really (to some degree of thoroughness or other) all that the rest of us have done.

The most important part of the shootout to me is what the recorded images look like. In the real world that's where the footage will end up, either on tape or P2 or hardrive. It's absurd that there are arguements on the validity of the tests, and yet haven't seen the footage and how it holds up to its respected compression formats and recording formats. There could be 100 tests on resolution and sharpness and such, but who cares if it looks like trash when recorded. This has yet to be seen.

I agree completely. That's why you should look forward to the Texas Shootout, coming up in a couple of weeks. It's shaping up to be a three-day event, this time with no trash-talking about the people in it, or arguments between participants about its validity. Stay tuned,

Evan: "It's pretty hard to find DV magazine in canada, in fact I'm not even sure if I've seen it here ever."

Look harder. I have seen it in every Coles/Chapters/Indigo books, large magazine shop, airport, bus depot accross the country. Some times it is stuffed in with the PC mags, other times with photography or sometime, if there is enough of them, with the other video magazines/home theater. It is by far the most popular magazine of the genre, so if your local stand doesn't carry it, tell it to do so and you will have the next issue.


I'm pretty sure DV Magazine is available, for free, in electronic form.

I'd just like to remind everyone that meta discussions are against DVinfo Policy (http://www.dvinfo.net/network/policy.php). This thread is turning into the definition of a meta discussion (discussing what you should be able to discuss).

Please, give it a rest. The moderators are getting weary of locking threads and removing posts, so please everyone, unless you have something which is actually related to video, think twice before posting. If you really feel that you need to comment on DVinfo policy then you can always click on the exclamation mark in the red triangle, or click on a moderator's name and send us e-mail. If we feel it merits a response you'll receive one.

DV Magazine does publish some of its articles in electronic format, just go to www.dv.com and register for free in order to view its content. Adam's shootout article probably won't be ready for a little while yet though.

I'd just like to remind everyone that meta discussions are against DVinfo Policy (http://www.dvinfo.net/network/policy.php). This thread is turning into the definition of a meta discussion (discussing what you should be able to discuss).

Please, give it a rest. The moderators are getting weary of locking threads and removing posts, so please everyone, unless you have something which is actually related to video, think twice before posting. If you really feel that you need to comment on DVinfo policy then you can always click on the exclamation mark in the red triangle, or click on a moderator's name and send us e-mail. If we feel it merits a response you'll receive one.

I completely agree, and personally do not understand why this thread is still open. Really sorry for adding to this diatribe, but this thread just needs to be closed.

Mike

Does anyone know how long it will take Adam's write up to be published? Will his article as be on dv.com? It's pretty hard to find DV magazine in canada, in fact I'm not even sure if I've seen it here ever.


Evan, have you thought of a subscription? They do deliver to our friends to the North. I buy so many different magazines, now I got subscriptions to most of them. I was wearing out my welcome at Borders books! Looking forward to Adams article on the cameras.

this thread just needs to be closed.You'd think that, Mike. But the fact of the matter is, I'm *really* tired of closing threads.

You'd think that, Mike. But the fact of the matter is, I'm *really* tired of closing threads.

Chris,

I can certainly understand that. You must be very frustrated with the goings on of late. Hopefully it will die down very soon, as it is very irritating to open a thread to view a post and find nothing but trash talking and no information of any value to this community. I have allowed myself to be drawn into it, and now I am not going to respond to it any further.

I hope that you are pretty much recovered from your trip, and have some interesting stuff to report from Mac World.

Mike

MacWorld... a separate thread perhaps? No, I'll answer it here. Nothing interesting to report related to MW itself, as I seldom pay much attention to the actual trade show (unless it's NAB). I use expos such as MW primarily as opportunities to meet people. Seeing old friends, making new ones. Running into fellow DV Info Net members and meeting them face to face for the first time. Catching up with folks I don't get to see in person except for a couple of times a year at various events. Who am I having dinner with and where, that's usually the biggest news of the day for me. Plus the city itself, I love San Francisco and hadn't been there in awhile, and part of my reason for going to MW was just to enjoy one of my favorite cities for a few days. That's my MacWorld report.

Chris:

did you attend Mike Horton's LAFCPUG confab on Wednesday night?

Anything interesting there?

Thanks guys I guess I'll look a little harder for some reason at my local coles and chapters there are next to no videography or filmmaking magazines for some reason, the best I can find is videomaker and I don't even see it that often, I'll ask them about it, but if the magazine really is that good I'll probably just subcribe like Eric suggested that takes the hassle right out.

Most of the magazines like DV, Videography, etc., give you free subscriptions if you're a working professional or a student (or pretend to be, winkwink,nudgenudge).

Most of the magazines like DV, Videography, etc., give you free subscriptions if you're a working professional or a student (or pretend to be, winkwink,nudgenudge).

I envy all you guys... You have the trade shows, the expo's, the magazines, even rental shops and places to try out your gear (not to forget workshops!)

I had to buy my dvx just by online research, I had to learn to operate my Glidecam Smooth Shooter without any professional help (you have workshops in the US for steadicams, right?), there are NO production magazines or Pro gear magazines around, and so on...

This is pretty much a lonely and harduous journey of self education and enlightment on the art of FIlmmaking here!

Wow, Macau! You aren't kidding- that is pretty far from the NAB show and Macworld.

Keep going though - sometimes the nicest gems are formed in the toughest places.

I envy all you guys... You have the trade shows, the expo's, the magazines, even rental shops and places to try out your gear (not to forget workshops!)

I had to buy my dvx just by online research, I had to learn to operate my Glidecam Smooth Shooter without any professional help (you have workshops in the US for steadicams, right?), there are NO production magazines or Pro gear magazines around, and so on...

This is pretty much a lonely and harduous journey of self education and enlightment on the art of FIlmmaking here!


Yeah, Sergio you're right. It's easy to forget we have it good sometimes. Still, you have your camera and your imagination. In other words, you basically have most of what you need right there.
James Cameron said that sometimes it's better to be handicapped on the budget or resource side, it forces you to be more creative.

I believe all of us just have to keep pushing ourselves with what we have. After all, this is what we fight for, isn't it? Thanks for the insentive!