Hi Derek,

I've selected (2) 8GB P2 cards to get the most un-interrupted shooting time possible. I would have preferred to use the Cineporter but it doesn't look like it's going to be available in time to use it for my project.

My workflow will be to fill up the P2 cards, transfer off to an external firewire drive, wipe the cards and keep shooting.

Having 2 8GB P2 cards is great. Even after you get something like Cineporter, you have option to swap the cards.

I just began to process the 24p files to be real 24frame with the cinematool reverse telecine menu in the FCP5. It is very easy, just select the file and choose the menu. It converts the file to be real 24 frame. I believe this could be done with batch selection.

I'd recommend 4gb cards over 8gb if you can make it work. You definitely want more than one; I'd say two 4gb would be dramatically more useful than one 8gb. With just one card, as soon as it's full you have to shut down your production while offloading the contents. With two cards you can continue shooting while the other card is offloading. We did two days of dramatic narrative style shooting with just two 4gb cards and a laptop, and we never had to wait, the camera was always ready with a fresh card.

With just one card, I think you'll be not so happy.

As for pricing, 4gb's just make a lot more sense. At current pricing I think you can get two 4gb's and a P2 Store for less than the cost of two 8gb's. That's four times as much storage for less cash. Not that I'm necessarily recommending the P2 Store, but if I was considering the $10,000 pricetag of cam + 2 8gb's, I'd say the $9200 pricetag of the two 4gb's and the P2 Store is a much wiser way to spend the dough (plus it's less dough!)

There are two good cases to be made for going with the 8gb's. First, if you do long shots (maybe interviews) where you need to keep the camera rolling for a longer time, then yes the 8gb's make more sense than multiple 4gb's do. But, I'd say the FireStore would make more sense than either for that case, so...

The second case is in offloading to a firewire drive. Offloading to a firewire drive involves creating a new partition for each card, and the system limits you to 15 partitions. If you use the camera to control a firewire drive, it limits it to 15 partitions; so for 4gb cards, that means you can offload a max. of 60gb before it's done. With 8gb cards, presumably you could go to 120gb (I haven't tested that, I don't have any 8gb's, but it seems to make sense).

Of course, if you're using a laptop, these size restrictions go away, you can use the full capacity of terabyte drives if you want.

In short, the 4gb's provide much more storage for the dollar; I think you can get around six 4gb cards for the price of two 8gb's. I have two 4gb cards, and I think it's serviceable for any type of dramatic narrative production; obviously for other types of uses you may have to consider other alternatives.

I waver back and forth on whether I should have purchased the HVX with (6) 4GB cards, but my order was placed and committed back in Oct. So, although the price is very steep, I had decided to go with the two 8GB card package.

My reasoning is, that it will be painful enough of a transition away from the 60 minute DV tape approach for me. And at 1080 res on the HVX200, we're talking *about* 4 minutes per 4GB card.

Documentary and run n' gun style eats time like crazy. With the two 8GB cards I can shoot 18 minutes worth of 1080 before offloading. Or per Barry's workflow suggestion, do the alternate card offload. So I could shoot 9 minutes worth on 1 card, remove, offload that, while shoooting 9 more on the other.

Finally, with 24PN, I like knowing the combined 16GB of the two cards will allow a little over 40 minutes of 720p recording without offload or card swap. Cut that in half for the 4GB cards.

So to save $$, and you don't need longer sustained recording, or no-offload-shooting style, I think the 4GB are definitely the way to go.

Maybe I'll buy some 4GB cards as well! :D :D

Finally, with 24PN, I like knowing the combined 16GB of the two cards will allow a little over 40 minutes of 720p recording without offload or card swap. Cut that in half for the 4GB cards.That does look REALLY good. The 720/24pN is probably what I'll be doing most of my work in as well, and 40 minutes of shooting before having to do anything else is nice.

Another thing that I like about the 8GB cards is their long term usability. I know that none of us know the future of this technology, but I would imagine a year from now we'll be seeing 16GB (and higher) P2 cards become available and at the same time prices dropping. If that's the case, I don't know how many times you would reach for a 4GB card when you could use a 8GB or 16GB?

This forum is a great place to learn from others' experience and it sure does seem like in Kaku's experience of using the HVX in several settings, he likes the 8GB card(s).
Having 2 8GB P2 cards is great. Even after you get something like Cineporter, you have option to swap the cards.

Then again, you have to remember that Barry's been using the HVX for probably the longest time of anyone here and he makes a good case for the 4GB cards as well. Decisions, decisions. (good ones though) :)

Call me silly, but I almost feel like worrying about recording time or, even having the ability to have long single clips by using different media is making all of us a bit spoiled.

On the few film projects is was a contracted DP, our standard film load was 11 minutes! Dumping to drives, switching cards, reformatting etc... it all seems like cake compared to dealing with loading and changing out film cans!

I'll take the ultra-small form factor and light weight of the HVX system vs. lugging around short-run film canisters any day! (laughs)

Robert,

I agree. Oh the "problems" we have!

Not to mention all of the new-found time I'll have with taking "capturing footage" out of the workflow process. Not only the new-found time, but the money as well, as this eliminates the need of having a deck and/or the wear & tear on your camera if you use it as your deck (although I think the "wear & tear" on a camera from using it as a deck are quite minimal).

I'll admit being spoiled by new tech for sure. I also admit that I take as much for granted as possible, in hopes of shattering some creative ground, just for me personally (clients may come to appreciate it as well). So I'm trying to cover bases that will help facilitate the artistic process as much as possible.

I aim to be involved in very well planned shoots, cinema film style, but I'm also aiming to get into hardcore verite concepts, and I may definitely need a lot of roll time, without breaks. Events and strange cool things happen with or without us. When I'm rollin', I want to increase my chances of capturing it.

:)

Additional Note: I just realized, woah, this topic was about the HVX200 and the *Mac*. We are way off topic. :P

Then again, you have to remember that Barry's been using the HVX for probably the longest time of anyone here and he makes a good case for the 4GB cards as well. Decisions, decisions. (good ones though) :)

Let's be clear -- the 8gb cards are better than the 4gb cards in all ways, shapes, and forms. I'm only looking at the cost-per-gigabyte ratio. If someone can justify the cost of the 8gb cards, of course they would provide for longer recording and fewer swaps. I was just saying that in general, the 4gb's are so much less expensive per gb that you could have two 4gb's, add a P2 Store and a field-offloading laptop, thus giving you about 100 gb of storage on hand for less than the cost of two 8gb cards.

But yes, absolutely if one had 8gb's and 4gb's, I would guess the 4's wouldn't get much use!

Thanks Barry. You're right 100%. It's the costs vs. benefit/convenience thats making it a tough decision for me. One other factor that is out of my control is going to be the availability of the 8GB cards. I may "have" to go with 1 or 2 4GB cards in order to get the HVX sooner.

Derek,

The 8GB cards are out there; check around with smaller, local shops. I don't know why yet, but it seems places like B&H aren't getting shipments of the HVX related hardware as fast as the smaller shops. Go figure.

Additional Note: I just realized, woah, this topic was about the HVX200 and the *Mac*. We are way off topic. :P

Yep...

And to bring it back on topic, I'll announce that I just took the plunge!

I snagged a pretty darn good deal on a G5 quad on ebay. It's NIB and seems to come from a reputable seller. I just threw a bid out there and didn't imagine that I'd actually win, but nobody else stopped by to bid on it as the auction closed. Hopefully it pans out. G5 quad 2.5GHz, 4GB (I may upgrade to 8GB), 500GB HDD (I'll be adding a second), 7800GT, Airport Extreme w/Bluetooth.

I'll be connecting it to a new Dell 30" display. If it goes well and I decide to continue down the Mac path, I'll drop in a Kona2 (maybe a Kona3 if price allows) and I'll pick up a decent HD studio monitor. Once the system is here, I'll set it up with Final Cut Studio. The monitor just arrived today, but I haven't fired it up yet. If it all works out, I'll also add Shake, probably before I spring for the Kona card.

I snagged a pretty darn good deal on a G5 quad on ebay.

Congrats!! You're in for a nice ride.

I'll be connecting it to a new Dell 30" display.

The only flag this raises to me was a report on Barefeats about issues with the Dell 24" with Final Cut Pro while running at 60hz refresh rate. Here's the BareFeats report:

January 9th, 2006 (Updated) -- FCP PLAYBACK PROBLEM REPORTED
Readers have reported to me a problem with skipped frames during playback with Final Cut Pro using the Dell LCD 2405FPW display at 60Hz. Apple warns about problems with 60Hz refresh rate in an article on their web site (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=25117), but that applies to CRTs. Most readers report NO problems with the Dell 2405FPW. We can't duplicate the problem in our lab. Apple recommends refresh rates of 75Hz or higher. The Quad-Core with the FX 4500 connected to the Dell 2405FPW can be set to 75Hz at 1024x768 or 1280x1024 resolution. The native 1920x1200 only can run at 60Hz on the Dell. It's unknown what scan rate the Cinema displays use. If you open the Displays preference panel, refresh rate is "n/a."

Hopefully, the resolution you want to use on the Dell allows a faster-than-60hz refresh rate. Or maybe it won't matter.

Thanks for the comments on the LCD refresh, Steev. :) I was never aware of a frame-skipping problem. Although frame judder is commonplace. For judder, it's not a Dell issue, it's a general LCD panel issue and present on all Apple displays as well as nearly every display out there. What it comes down to is these panels right now all sync at 60Hz, regardless of which resolution they're running. Some of the panels will take faster refresh rates as inputs, but still can only scan at 60Hz. Where the problem comes in with playback is when you have a 60Hz progressive display and you try to run frame rates like 24fps, you have the choice of seeing either judder (if the video frame draws are sync'd with the display blanking) or you see shearing/tearing (if the frame draws are not in sync). On CRTs or other displays that have higher refresh rates, this becomes less of an issue. Apple won't admit that this happens with their own displays, but *ALL* of the current Apple displays have a max refresh rate of 60Hz. A few models (like the 23" one) can accept higher-rate inputs for lower resolutions and even though the screen still outputs at 60Hz, this can still produces a smoother image at times. At 1920x1200, though (top resolution for the 23"), input is still limited to 60Hz as it is with the Dell 2405, or the Samsung 24x models, etc.. The DVI spec tops out with the max resolution at 60Hz being 1920x1200. Dual-Link DVI can transmit 1920x1200 @ 120Hz or 2560x1600 @ 60Hz.

60Hz refresh on LCD is just a way of life and millions of people the world over own these displays and don't seem to mind. Goes for HDTV sets too in the form of LCD, rear projection LCD/LCOS and Plasma. Some oddball pro sets and high-end consumer sets have 120Hz refresh, but they're few and far between - like the 65" Studio JVC LCOS set for $40K or the consumer grade Brillian 65" LCOS for about $9K.

Also these refresh issues plague CRT displays too, but nobody seemed to really ever notice. I think it's just something for LCD naysayers to gripe about. But I don't think the issue will go away until 120Hz displays are common... 120Hz gives perfect sync for 30fps, 60fps and 24fps with no frame judder.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but just thought I'd throw that out there. :)

I'm eager to see the new Dell 30" in action. It looks seriously cool on my desk and dwarfs my 24" Samsung. It has 75nits more brightness and a 700:1 contrast vs. the 500:1 of the Apple 30". Price-wise, they are the same.

I don't know if I'll wait for my new Quad or if I'll hook up my 7800GTX equipped gaming system. The 7800GTX has a dual-link DVI port on it. :)

Here's one more issue I have been thinking of, now that I'm about to get this Mac thing going...

I know that Shake uses a USB dongle for copy protection. What about Final Cut Studio and/or the apps within? Do they get keyed to a specific system or is it an installation time-out similar to what Microsoft and Adobe use (can only install/register the product every 120 days or so)???

The reason I ask, is if the new Quad works out well and I end up liking FCS, I will probably buy a MacBookPro for field use. I can get the Universal FCS disc sometime in February so running the apps on the new Intel is a non-issue. But I just wanted to know what I'm up against if I will need a separate license for each system (yuck). Or if I can just put the USB dongle on a keychain like I do with my keys for Windows software and they go with me so I have them with whatever system I'm on.... How does the Apple license agreement work? With Microsoft and Adobe, they allow in the fine print a second installation for a mobile system even though the installations are time locked. Just install, call them up and tell them you're also installing on your notebook for when you're away from the office and they say "uh, OK" and give you the unlock code. Some other software vendors are a little more friendly and allow 2~3 installs before initiating the timelock (Autodesk, Vegas). ...Just curious what Apple does. I'm already liking how Apple offers the family upgrade packs too for OSX and some of their other software. $30 more than the standard upgrade for OSX and I can upgrade up to 5 systems. Wish Microsoft did that with Windows...

The proapps are keyed or dongled.

License says you can install one app on one computer at a time.

As an attorney, I read that to mean you can't, under the license, have multiple installs even though you are using only one at a time.

Your mileage may vary

What about Final Cut Studio and/or the apps within? Do they get keyed to a specific system or is it an installation time-out similar to what Microsoft and Adobe use

FCS uses a serial number. FCS looks for repeat serial usages on an ethernet network. You won't be able to run it on more than 1 computer if the other computer(s) are on the same network. You can deduce the rest of your use from that statement. I'd just say, play fair. :)

Kaku,

Nice new HVX footage on your site! I love the details that you can see in the neon sign. Thanks for posting that and giving me something to edit and play around with while waiting for my cam.

Looks like Premiere Pro 2's lack of support for DVCPro HD without an expensive input card means they'll be more Mac switchers soon!

Looks like Premiere Pro 2's lack of support for DVCPro HD without an expensive input card means they'll be more Mac switchers soon!

Yep. Also you can bet a lot of people are going to be switching to DVD Studio Pro too to get BluRay support (and possibly HD-DVD). Adobe is ignoring the existence of new HD disc formats for Encore 2.0 and Vegas+DVD has no announced plans either, although I bet they will support BluRay (being Sony and all that) sometime later this spring/summer.

I love my Mighty Mouse!! It rocks! scroll sideways baby!
Very helpful in the FCP timeline!

Looks like Premiere Pro 2's lack of support for DVCPro HD without an expensive input card means they'll be more Mac switchers soon!

Premiere Pro 2 works great with the HVX200 using DVFilm Raylight.
see http://dvfilm.com/raylight $195

It also works with 720/25pn which is yet to be supported by
Apple.

Time to switch (back)?

;-)

Premiere Pro 2 works great with the HVX200 using DVFilm Raylight.
see http://dvfilm.com/raylight $195

It also works with 720/25pn which is yet to be supported by
Apple.

Time to switch (back)?

;-)

MVB. What's up man? I got your book.

-Nate

MVB. What's up man? I got your book.

-Nate
Keeping busy. Hope the book was useful to you. In a few weeks
we'll have a new edition which talks a lot about the HVX200.

Keeping busy. Hope the book was useful to you. In a few weeks
we'll have a new edition which talks a lot about the HVX200.

Haven't gotten the HVX yet but I am shooting another flick on the DVX this summer. If things go well, maybe I'll be able to buy an HVX, but I'd need to upgrade my system. I'm on a G4. My next purchase will probably be an Intell Mac + Pro Apps, then I'll go from there.

-Nate