Let's discuss the best way to get a great looking DVD from an HDV project.

In my particular setting I'm using:
Aspect HD - Premiere Pro - Source footage is from a Sony FX1 1080 x 1440 30i

I'm not using the simulated film look at this time, but I'd be interested in knowing how that would play in to this (in both 24 and 30), and I know Cineform has some special abilities for importing that stuff.

David, I look forward to hearing the best technique cineform has to offer at this point, and I'm hoping we can compare results (which may vary in different settings) with some alternative techniques (Joel if you like you can repost, otherwise I'll copy your steps for you)

Hope you all had a great holiday,
Daniel

Daniel, when you say progessive DVD, what does this mean? Guess I need to learn here. I now the DVD player can put out various formats, but, can a std DVD player read different formats? If so, what are the different types, and of is the outputting from either AME or Procoder do this?

So much to learn.

Dave

I'm not an expert on this but...

MY DVD player has a progressive mode. You have to hook it up to a monitor that is capable of this with component cables.

It's supposed to look really nice. It's progressive as opposed to interlaced.

Anyone want to correct me?

But, the dvd players first had std 480i output. Then, they added progressive, 480p if you TV can handle. Then, some of them can upscale to 720p or 1080i.

But, for a standard DVD, my assumption is the bits are put on the platter the same way, which I assumed was always NTSC 29.97i?

So the output can be scaled. But, I assume the material on the DVD was always the same. (I am not talking HD.)

Dave

My answer: 7
I refuse to defend my answer!

I can defend an answer of 42.

I can defend an answer of 42.

Alright, let's hear it.

http://www.factspider.com/th/the-answer-to-life%2c-the-universe%2c-and-everything.html

well then. I stand corrected. My new answer is 42 and I'm willing to defend it.

Now... about creating those DVDs
:)

Oh, THAT answer!

I believe it is in here somewhere:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

So good data.

Never mind...

It seems in the end the original question has not been answered. Yes DVDs are inherently interlaced, but if the source is progressive (or made progressive) the progressive scan DVD player can reconstuct the progressive image, resulting in sharper more film-like picture (due to the reduced temporal motion, from 60i to 30p or 24p.)

In Premiere do Export Movie using "CineForm HD Export" to a 720x480 images with a 1.2 pixel aspect ratio (this will provide a 16x9 NTSC SD image.) In the rending settings select de-interlace (if you source is interlaced.) This is not normally a great de-interlacer, however as you are scaling from HD to SD, you have plently of vertical resolution so this option will work well. Another option is to shoot in CineFrame modes (then you don't need to deinterlace.) Now use this new AVI to encode for your DVD.

Cool David, another neat thing to try.

dave

This makes me think of a few things.

For starters can't a DVD hold a 24p MPEG2 file? I'm pretty sure it can because you can put more 24p footage onto a DVD than you can 60i at the same bitrates. It's then up to your DVD player whether to send the true 24p footage to the TV or to insert 3:2 pulldown on-the-fly to send 60i to your TV.

That said, I've been wondering something about HD lately, but I'm not seeing a lot of discussion on this (but maybe I just haven't been looking). If you have a 1080i source, why not first de-interlace by DROPPING every other field (drop all lower fields for example)? Now, in an SD world, that wouldn't be a very smart way to delace, but when dropping down from HD to SD, this makes A LOT of sense to me instinctually.

I mean if you delace by dropping every other field (which your NLE may or may not be able to do, but there are plently of SD-based tools that are capable of deinterlacing like that, just not sure if they can handle HD footage), you'll drop down from 1080 vertical lines of resolution to 540 lines of resolution (which is still more than what an SD DVD can handle in terms of NTSC). That would get you a truly progressive frame with no artifacting. Then, just scale the whole frame back down to 720x480 with a 1.2 PAR to burn to DVD. That could potentially be done to arrive at 30p or 24p SD from HD source couldn't it? It's almost like having a progressive CCD on your cam isn't it?

Maybe I've missed something, but I've been wondering about this.

For starters can't a DVD hold a 24p MPEG2 file?

No, the pulldown is rendered in so that a 24p source is encoded as 60i. There are no 24p encoded DVD, only 60i with 3:2 pulldown (or 25p within 50i.)

No, the pulldown is rendered in so that a 24p source is encoded as 60i. There are no 24p encoded DVD, only 60i with 3:2 pulldown (or 25p within 50i.)

I actually think you might be wrong on that one. 23.976 fps is part of the MPEG2 specs, and to my knowledge many commercial DVD's come as true 24p on the DVD, then the DVD player inserts pulldown only if needed (on a TV that can handle 480p it won't bother). That's not to say much 24p footage is encoded to 60i with pulldown already inserted, and then some DVD players (or the TV can do it too if it is modern), can REMOVE the pulldown to display a 480p version at 23.976 fps. My understanding is that it can go either way, because people can and do squeeze more time onto true 24p DVD's (at the same bit rate) than they can for 60i DVDs.

In the case of 24 fps source, the encoder embeds MPEG-2 repeat_first_field flags into the video stream to make the decoder either perform 2-3 pulldown for 60Hz NTSC displays (actually 59.94Hz) or 2-2 pulldown (with resulting 4% speedup) for 50Hz PAL/SECAM displays. In other words, the player doesn't "know" what the encoded rate is, it simply follows the MPEG-2 encoder's instructions to produce the predetermined display rate of 25 fps or 29.97 fps.

Here's a link:
http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/24Pdvd.htm

And a google search:
http://www.google.com/search?q=24p+dvd+mpeg2

Sorry, I do know this one. The MPEG2 does has progressive modes, yet these are not support in today's DVDs. Pick a copy of DVD Demystified (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0071350268/qid=1136015929/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/002-6242387-7038428?s=books&v=glance&n=283155). 24p is encoding as 60i with repeat flags.

so should I bother with a progressive DVD?

Absolutely, it is the best look for progressive HDV content.

I'm not being argumentative. I'm sincerely trying to understand.
If it's just 60i with repeat flags- how does it alter the image.

Daniel

Yes it is confusing. An interlace storage system like DVD doesn't care whether you encode 60i unique fields or 24p via 3-2 pulldown, the disk still sees 60i (all interlaced coding is used.) Yet a progressive scan DVD player can see these repeat flags and reconstruct the progressive image, perfect for upscaling to an HD display. This is why it is worth it.