We love the camera, we're going definitely going to buy it, what is the best tapestock to use ?

Thanks Bob

I started mine off with Sony Digital Master HDV stock. I had some from my Z1U, so I figure I'd keep it going. Not a drop out yet.

- Shannon

This probably belongs in the "long black line forum" but I'll be sticking with the sony digital master tapes as well, 1 because I like the hard plastic case and 2) if anything ever goes wrong with the tape (drop out whatever) at least I'll know I couldn't have put a *better* tape in.

Hi guys I have a large amount of Sony DVCAM 40 Min stock (runs 60 minutes in DV/HDV mode) has anyone ever tried using DVCAM stock for recording HDV? Will it wear the heads more? I have heard alot of rumors of "it will do this to your camera" or "its a great idea" but nothing rock solid.

I'd just rather use all this DVCAM stock (plus it has a sexy blue case for storing the tape in to, bit like a smaller digi beta case) before I start going out and buying HDV Master Stock. For anything mission critical I would probably record to a firestore, citidisk, etc as well as tape.

Any feedback on pros/cons would be great.

Cheers,
Ash

Ashley,

Your DVCAM tapes are some of the best MiniDV tapes ever made. Higher tolerances and center of the master spools were utilized when winding DVCAM tapes at the assembly line. Regular low-cost tapes use the beginning and ends of master spools when winding (not a good thing).

YES, USE THOSE is the answer. You can use up the stock ou have and continue to use that same type and only that type for your camera if you wish.

- ShannonRawls.com

Hello friends,

I am starting off with the Panasonic AY-DVM63AMQ tape for our XL H1. So far so good. But maybe we will not know if it is a clever decision until after several years which the following story will tell you ...

It might be a little odd here but I do not want to feed Sony any more. In the end of 1970 I bought Sony 1/4" reel tapes (think the type was SLH or ULH) for my audio recordings. After several years I got terrible problems with high frequent sounds from the heads on all my recordings. It jared upon my ears! It entered the head and was amplified to the speakers. I was using a Sony deck with this Sony tape all the time.

I talked to Sony and they admitted they had problems with these tapes. Despite several years had passed, they gave me new 10,5" metal spools with ULH tape for free, but of course, I lost all my recordings.

Then I bought a new Teac 4-shannel tape deck and started all over again.

Guess what, a few days ago I tried to listen to my old recordings from around 1985 on the Sony ULH tape.
I got to clean the heads every 30 seconds or so to be able to listen to the recordings wihout this terrible noise.
The BASF and AGFA professional tapes show no problems at all on the same deck or on a Nagra IV-S.

Thats why I prefer to buy something else than Sony tapes. On the long black line forum they say Sony uses wet lubrication and several others dry. I don't know if this is the cause of my problems. A wild speculation is perhaps the wet lubrication will not hold over time and age. This is only my guess, perhaps someone else knows more. Unfortunately I have played different brands on the deck but a thorough cleaning does not help more than a minute.

However, I must say the above mentioned Sony tapes are completely different from the mini-DV HDV tapes they manufacture today. But I do not forget this thing.

I like quality products and dislike we are forced to buy new things all the time due to bad quality. Unfortunately a company producing cheap products get away by selling twice to some of us! Don't support this, we have too much waste in this world.

I wish you and the rest of our world a better year 2006!

Hi,

I have always used Panasonic Master Quality tapes in all of my DV recordings. But as I prep for buying an XL-H1, I need people's thoughts on what is the best tape to use with the camera. I have the Panasonic Advanced Master Quality tapes (which is their top of the line miniDV tapes), but I keep hearing that I should use the Sony Digital Master tapes made for HDV. What should I use?

I really onely want to use one type of tape in my camera, but I have always avoided Sony tapes because of the different lubricants they used. But are these tapes really the best for HDV and DV recording?

Thanks.

I too will shortly be purchasing the XL H1. I was planning on buying the Sony Digital Master HDV tapes (I've seen on this site, and talked to others elsewhere that those are best...consensus?). Where would be the best place to purchase these? I think B & H is only selling single tapes @around $20; does this seem crazy/right? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Well, to be honest, I always bought cheap Fuji or Panasonic DV tapes, the consumer ones for my XL1, XM1 and now my XL-H1. I've worked a lot with a Sony Z1 and did the same; shot a whole documentary in HDV on 25 Fuji tapes 3 dollars a piece..

At the moment i'm shooting a TV show on the XL-H1 and the broadcaster is providing the tapes, Sony DVCAM 40 (60 for DV) min. tapes 15 euros per tape... ouch..

Michael,
Doean't matter what tape you buy....so long as you STICK WITH IT. *smile*

Sony uses a dry lubricant on their more expensive tape stock....have been for 6 years.

I use Sony tapes because they are labeled HDV. I'm corny like that and do not take chances. But I'm sure cheap stuff is fine. However, think about this:

Have you noticed cheap tape stock is always the tape stock that has dropouts? How many times have you heard of a dropout from the most expensive tapes? I sure haven't, and here's why....

Most good ME tape stock is the same as the cheap ME tape, usually. They use HUGE REELS of it (10ft' high). However the expensive stock gets the center of the reel. The cheap tape gets the beginning and ends...where the tape is stressed and sometimes breaks. If a reel breaks, they fix it. Where it is mended/fixed that goes to a cheap tape and undoubtedly gives you a dropout when recorded over. People blame their cameras for the dropout so they run out and spend more money on cleaners. Never realizing they just recorded over a tape splice. The expensive tapes never have splices in them and the tape was never stressed in the factory, so you have a better chance.

It's all a game with these companies. Once you realize who and what you're dealing with, then you understand the rules of the game and you better protect yourself and your investments.

Since you are using the best Panasonic tape you can buy......you're fine. Keep using it. Just don't change horses mid-stream.

- ShannonRawls.com

Thanks Shannon. My XL-H1 comes in tomorrow, so I want to use the right tapes right from the start. You say Sony uses a dry lubricrant on their more expensive tapes. Do you know whether their Digital Master tapes for HDV uses a dry lubricant? I'm leaning towards them ...

Now you have me curious. Canon sells tape under accessories for the XL H1. Has anyone out there tried Canon's?

Sorry if this was already covered... I'm obviously getting close if I'm asking this...

I have always used Sony PR60's - with JVC DV500/550's, PD150's, the Sony Z1 & the JVC HD100. So far - very good luck.

Is it safe to use Sony's with the H1 as well, if you start and stay with them?

I've been away from Canon for a while, but I do believe I used Sony tapes with my XL1, way back when as well...


ADDL. OFFTOPIC QUESTION: Was looking for all of the input/output ports. The site lists composite/S-vid, etc. I assume these come from a breakout cable that hangs off the back, or am I missing the hard jacks? I would want to monitor a composite (or better) feed into a Sony field monitor... Would hope a letterboxed feed would dump out the video out, like the Z1/HD100(?)

Thanks!
Shawn

Thanks Shannon. My XL-H1 comes in tomorrow, so I want to use the right tapes right from the start. You say Sony uses a dry lubricrant on their more expensive tapes. Do you know whether their Digital Master tapes for HDV uses a dry lubricant? I'm leaning towards them ...
Yes, they are dry. I busted one open to check. *smile*
So are the Panasonic AY-DVM63MQ Master tapes. I busted one of those open as well about 2 years ago.\

- ShannonRawls.com

Shawn
Check here for tape stock questions: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=59460

You didn't see the inputs/outputs because they are covered by a cover on the rear passenger side of the camera. No breakout cables at all for SD connections. The only cable that breaks out is the component HD output near the rear licence plate. The composite & s-video are full connecters behind the plastic cover along with 4 RCA jacks for audio as well.

However, be warned, this camera will NOT letterbox the HD or 16:9 SD output like the Sony Z1U will. Always anamorphic, so you better get a 16:9 monitor. *smile*

- ShannonRawls.com

Thanks Shannon - very helpful as always.

Makes sense now - I think I've got a Canopus box that uses the same kind of proprietary plug to component breakout.

Is the SD Composite output via BNC or RCA jack?

Very good to know about the 16x9 out - I have a Sony PVM-8045 which makes switching easy. Some of my other monitors aren't as cooperative. Sounds like you'd have trouble just taking this to a friends house and plugging it in to their family set - my guess is the images would be tall/skinny? Perhaps the component out is a little more forgiving on a newer set, or is it the same way. Just wondering, for that odd time that you'd have to plug it into a rogue monitor somewhere...

Thanks.

Is the SD Composite output via BNC or RCA jack?

Both! The XL-H1 is the only HDV camera that provides you with a BNC connection for composite video out. No adapter needed, because you can alternatively use the RCA video jack that's right next to it instead.
On a 4:3 tv the image will be tall/skinny. New or old TV, it doesn't matter....4:3 is not forgiving with a 16:9 image.

- ShannonRawls.com

For the tape brand - use - JVC M-DV63PROHD - don't use Sony, says my DVcam serviceman.

That's interesting did your service man say why to only use the JVC brand? We've had nothing but quality from the sony Digital Master HDV tapes.

I haven't tried the canon tapes, but at 14.00 a piece I would tempted to just pay an extra buck adn get the sony digital masters, if for no other reason then they come in a cool loooking case.

As others have said the worst thing to do is to change brand. When you use a tape the head drum wears and beds in to on the exact makeup of the tape and lubricant. If you change brand the head wears again adapting to the new brand, so changing brands frequently will promote faster head drum wear. In addition some of the lubricants used when mixed with lubricants from other manufacturers can lead to an increase in oxide shedding and hence dropouts.
So bottom line, pick a reputable brand and stick with it.

I always used Sony's tape before (I think it's called DVM63) when I came to shop (with service man) I told him proud of H1 that I should by some more of the Sony's tape: - Don't, Canon never liked Sony, he told me. Drop outs etc. I don't know... He also told me the mecanical transport is at is best after a year ofe use for a well built camera like the H1. Maybe stick to one brand is the best...

Does anyone think there'd be any danger to switching between the various qualities of Sony tapes?

That is, stay with the same brand, but sometimes use a regular Sony miniDV 60pr, and sometimes use a Sony 'master' HDV tape?

I have been using Firestores for the last couple of years, so it's rare I even use the tape after a recording. However, if you didn't have a Firestore (or that the Firestore has HDV bugs - which I believe it does), I'd certainly want anything mission critical to be on the best recommended media.

I'm sure that if it's important you should spend the money on the good tapes (or always use the good tapes). I guess I just like being cheap sometimes - especially if the footage works, or if I'm just flat out of tapes, and a local resource has the regular kind. Wouldn't want to switch between both if it was harming the camera though. I'm guessing there's no issue... (?)

Just a thought/question...

Staying with the same brand should avoid the lubricant issues, however changing tape formulation will lead to further head profile changes and thus accelerated wear. Having said that most HDV/DV head drums should be good for 2000 hours if well looked after, so it all depends on how long you expect the drum to last. For me I would expect the camera to be superceeded or replaced before the drum wears out.

If any one has any links to reviews of the new Panasonic tape could you post them? I'll soon be shooting and had every intention of using the Sony DigitalMaster tapes, because of their reputation, but have personally always liked Panny's Master Quality tapes.

Thanks,

Justin

I asked a Canon representative about suitable tapes if not buying Canon's. After a long talk back and forth he said Canon is buying their tape from someone else which is NOT Sony. Suddenly he admitted the tape was the same as the one I planned to buy, the Panasonic AY-DVM63AMQ. I'm not 100 % sure about this because it was a talk over the phone. However, this tape has worked fine so far. /Johan

Is Sony Digital Master the same as DVM 63HD Mini DV tape sold by B&H?

Best,
Christopher

It's similar but the digital master comes in a larger case and is the "top of the line" for the Mini DV range. It's model is the PHDVM-63DM

Tried to find the answer with search but not much luck...

I was wondering what is the best tape stock to use with the XL H1... doing a second unit shoot in Cancun... then will bump the footage to HDCAM...

Thanks for the upcoming info guys or gals...

Tried to find the answer with search but not much luck...

I was wondering what is the best tape stock to use with the XL H1... doing a second unit shoot in Cancun... then will bump the footage to HDCAM...

Thanks for the upcoming info guys or gals...

Gary,

Visit "The Long Black Line" forum at:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=64

Many many threads and posts to help you out. Main consensus, buy a decent tape, and stick with it.

Mike

As I said in another post close by, I've shot 28 tapes, mostly Sony DVM63, with eight Sony DigitalMasters - I have not had a single drop-out, and no problems.

I've also shot about 5 Sony PDVM-40Ns (in 16x9 SD for a project started with the XL2). I think as long as you stick with one manufaturer's high-end tapes you'll be okay - just stay away from the cheap tapes and beware of deals - bad place to try to save money... Steve Rosen

Could someone please advice me which tape stock to buy for the XL-H1, I used Sony's Mini DV premium cassettes for my XL1s, but don't know weather they will be fine to use with my new XL-H1.

Can I use the normal Sony mini Dv tapes or do I have to buy a special HD tape?

Thanks for the advice.

Didi

We have done 3 separate shoots with Sony standard Mini-DV tape and have experienced no trouble.

I've read (never confirmed thru research) that switching tape brands is not good as their could be incompatability between the lubricants used. But I do not know if this is a fact or unsubstantiated wive's tale.

shouldn't this be the kind of research you do before you by the(quite expensive) camera?

either way, your sony mini-DV tapes will do fine. you do not need anyh special hdv tapes, they have just been checked to a higher standard for dropouts.

Thanks for the info, I thought the Sony premium Mini-DV tapes would be fine but my camera reseller wanted me to buy special Sony HD Mini DV-tapes that cost 3 times as much. Somehow I figured it to be a sales gimmick, but wasn't sure, thought I'd check over here first!!!

Thanks for the advice.

Didi Schoeman

We have done 3 separate shoots with Sony standard Mini-DV tape and have experienced no trouble.

I've read (never confirmed thru research) that switching tape brands is not good as their could be incompatability between the lubricants used. But I do not know if this is a fact or unsubstantiated wive's tale.

John, I can confirm what you've heard. I made the mistake of switching tape stock in my XL1s when I first got it... not a good idea, my footage had incredible amounts of drop out, I had to send the camera to Canon for repairs and they put it down to me using different tape stock. SInce then I stuck to the Sony brand and have never had any problems with dropout... guess it's true!!!

Didi,

My dealer told me that ' If you shoot Sony, stay with sony' - 'carry a cleaning tape, but use it VERY sparingly (only if needed), instead opt for regular real head cleaning in a reputable shop (not nescessarily the factory)'.

I think that if you you're on the Serengeti Plains in the magic hour and a bull elephant rears back and roars and you had it beautifully composed with perfect presets, you'd want to know that the tape stock held up.

I'd pay 3 times the cost of cheap tape for max value footage. I guess it depends if you're comparing the cost of HD tapes to cheap mini DV or to film stock. Back in the early 90's, I wanted to buy a 16mm film cam. Then I found out it would cost me something crazy like $300 for 10 minutes of processed film stock. HD tapes still look pretty cheap compared to that.

Now, if you were just shooting cousin Ernie's wedding...

Just my 2 cents...

Ken

Didi,

Please spend the extra money and buy the Sony Digital Master tapes. They are about $16 each, but have a better shell and superior lubrication and coating. This is not a myth or a con trick.

Head cleaning tapes are effectively like fine sandpaper and remove a very thin layer of the head. To say "use sparingly" would be an understatement. "Use in emergency when you find dropouts and you are in the middle of a swamp" would be more like it.

I got a good price and good service from Tapestockonline.com.

Best,

Harry.

Hi Harry

Thanks for the info, now that you put it that way I'm going to rather fork out the extra cash on the Digital Master Tapes.

Thanks again.

Didi

If you're shooting SD you can use the regular mini dv tapes. If you're shooting HD use the sony HD tapes.

Just remember, a dropout in SD is just a minor annoynance as it may only affect one frame.

A dropout in HDV means that you lose many frames. I do not remember how many but it seems like you lose about 1/2 second.

I have been pleased with the Panasonic AY-DVM63MQ which are about $5.00 each (in quantity) now.

From what I have read, when recording or playing a MiniDV (or HDV) type tape, a coating (similiar to varnish) coats the heads.

The tape cleaning, ideally, just removes this unwanted coating on your heads.

In the real world, no one knows exactly when to stop the tape cleaning process. My best advice is the following the tape cleaning instructions precisely! If there is no coating on the heads, then the cleaning process does wear down the heads.

Canon's manual is not very precise as to how often one should clean the heads.

We have done 3 separate shoots with Sony standard Mini-DV tape and have experienced no trouble.

I've read (never confirmed thru research) that switching tape brands is not good as their could be incompatability between the lubricants used. But I do not know if this is a fact or unsubstantiated wive's tale.


John you're actually right on that theory. Switching the brand of tape does change lubricants and could potentially cause trouble with your heads!

Didi,

My dealer told me that ' If you shoot Sony, stay with sony' - 'carry a cleaning tape, but use it VERY sparingly (only if needed), instead opt for regular real head cleaning in a reputable shop (not nescessarily the factory)'.

I think that if you you're on the Serengeti Plains in the magic hour and a bull elephant rears back and roars and you had it beautifully composed with perfect presets, you'd want to know that the tape stock held up.

I'd pay 3 times the cost of cheap tape for max value footage. I guess it depends if you're comparing the cost of HD tapes to cheap mini DV or to film stock. Back in the early 90's, I wanted to buy a 16mm film cam. Then I found out it would cost me something crazy like $300 for 10 minutes of processed film stock. HD tapes still look pretty cheap compared to that.

Now, if you were just shooting cousin Ernie's wedding...

Just my 2 cents...

Ken

You're 100% correct Ken, I've lost stunning footage due to dropout in the past and it's a terrible feeling, like going over a speed-trap!!! Only this one hurts more in the end!!!

I can't comfirm this, but I was told by a major camera store in Los Angeles that Sony MiniDV Premium was designed for use in single chip cameras, and Sony MiniDV Excellence should be used with 3 chip cameras to take advantage of the advanced technology. In any case, if you decide not to get HD tape, at least switch to Excellence. I don't own a XL H1, but I use one on paid shoots, and all the tape used is Sony PHDVM63DM Digital Master. Tape is the cheapest part of your trip, and some of the shots you might get, will never happen again, even if you could afford to go back. Just my thoughts......

Hi,
I'm using Panasonic AY-DVM63AMQ with great results so far. A Canon rep. told me they will do fine (exactly as the Canon labeled tapes) and cost me about USD 8 + VAT each.
I have had really bad results with Sony audio tapes in the past so I didn't want to put my money in the pocket of Sony. According to what I have heard Sony used wet lubrication compared to many others who used dry lubrication. Perhaps the wet lubrication isn't wet anymore after some years of storage.
I cannot play my old Sony ULH tape recordings without a terrible hissing sound which goes all the way into the tape recorders head and out through the loudspeakers! Sony replaced my first tapes after several years admitting they had trouble. Then they gave me new tapes (blanks - I lost my recordings). The same happened to these new tapes after 10 years.
But let's talk digital video tapes. Many have bad experience if they switch between different tape lubrications. I would put my cent on a dry tape - think it is more stable over time but it is just a guess.
I suggest you buy a quality tape and stay with it. And don't let any dust enter the tape or tape chamber in your camera if possible.
Good luck. Let's see if any of us can play our tapes after 10 or 20 years!

Over 100 tapes in 8 months with Sony Digital master tapes - cleaned heads twice during that time - one drop-out (which I believe may have really been a time code glitch since it occured right at the beginning of a shot and wouldn't allow me to batch capture)...

I used to be a Sony guy, but here at the U. we've been using
Panasonic AY-DVM63PQ and I have found this stock to be much
more reliable (using MiniDV) than Sony, including, Premium,
Excellence and Digital Master DVCAM.

When I bought the H1 I decided to switch and go with Panasonic.

So far so good.

YMMV :)

So what is the concensus??? I just ordered my camera and I need to know.

This may just be a silly question, but can the quality of the tape affect the noise level in the video image?

Thanks