I read somewhere that most miniDV tapes can be re-used up to 8 times. This week I'll be trying out my new GL2 and obviously won't really be using the footage I get for anything other than testing. I was wondering, how many times should I reuse the miniDV tapes? Should I consider reusing them at all? I read the article at dvfreaks about tape, and purchased the fuji miniDV tape.

Thanks for any advice.

The general rule-of-thumb I follow is that for shooting anything important you should always use fresh tape. For just putzing and learning it's fine to re-use the tape once or even twice.

Ken's advice is solid. I put Sony PR series tapes through a beating at work, recording over them as many as 10 times (for a non-archival spot check application) and they still deliver, but I wouldn't do this for anything serious.

Let me ask you this: I've heard that one of the differences between the Master Quality Panasonic tapes and the Linear Plus tapes is that you can rerecord over the Master Quality without fear, also that you don't have to spool them. . .the director who told me this has told me weird and certainly incorrect info in the past, and I'm sure this is more of it, but I just thought I'd check with the pros.

Josh,
Honestly couldn't say with certainty. I use the MQ as well as the PQ tapes and can't notice any difference in construction or tape quality whatsoever. I'm sure the specs between them differ slightly but, personally, I recommend using the PQ (Professional Quality) tapes. In the good/better/best range so popular with the marketing cabals it's the "better" grade...and less $$ than the MQ's.

I think that the more times you playback a recorded tape, the more drop outs you'll get. I've noticed an increase in drop outs after a playback of 6 to 8 times. So when my tape is first completed, as a master, I make a duplicate, just to be safe.

I never re-use DV tapes. The small mini DV tapes are so inexpensive that it is not worth the risk. I use the Panasonic AY-DVM60EJ (LinearPlus) and they cost about $3 a tape. Anything I shoot is worth at least $3. It could be work for a client (certainly worth more than $3) or my son playing soccer or a scouting event. Anything I pick my camera up to shoot is worth a lot more than $3.

Have you ever accidently recorded over something really valuable? Wait until you get your tapes mixed up, it'll happen. Try explaining that to a client (or your wife). It's not worth the risk for $3.

Do your selves a favor and use only new tapes. Your camera will thank you, your clients will thank you, and you'll have those once in a lifetime family memories for, well, a lifetime.

Jeff

My primary concern wasn't necessarily for the tape, but for the heads on the camcorder. I did want to make sure I could use one tape to test the camcorder for a few hours just to make sure it workds. After that, I'll probably only use tapes once.

PS - Are there any rewinding machines for miniDV tapes? I've read the instruction manual for the GL2, and there seems to be an extreme emphasis on keeping tapes in contact with the heads for the absolute minimum amount of time possible.

There are a few miniDV rewinders available, I don't know any brands/prices though. Another option is to buy a really cheap miniDV camera and use that as a deck.

That's what I did until it started eating tapes. Be Carefull!!

I found one that maxell makes, I might get that.

http://www.tapeandmedia.com/detail.asp?product_id=MAX-MDVRW

I would use the camcorder to rewind tapes. The wear and tear is minimal and safer on your tapes. Rewinders tend to snap the tapes when they reach the end. Cameras sense the tape end and slow down, thus avoiding the sudden snapping at the end of the tape.

Jeff

<<<-- Originally posted by Jeff Donald : I would use the camcorder to rewind tapes. The wear and tear is minimal and safer on your tapes. Rewinders tend to snap the tapes when they reach the end. Cameras sense the tape end and slow down, thus avoiding the sudden snapping at the end of the tape.

Jeff -->>>

Yeah, that's a good point actually. I cringe when I hear the 'clunk' on my VCR when I hit stop!

I don't think people should be so concerned about their playheads, if you don't abuse them and keep it relatively clean I don't think you'll have very many problems. It's not like they put the playheads in there so they couldn't be used :P

> There are a few miniDV rewinders available,


Cheap rewinders lack the logic to provide gentle tape handling. Now that they are becoming available, I am reading more posts about tape damage due to rewinders.

Tape heads should be good for on the order of 1000 hours of record, playback, and pause time with good tape.

Is it save to burn raw dv-footage from the harddrive to a CD-R and store the footage there?That way you can delete the footage from your computer and even reuse the dv-tape.
I would only do this if Im sure the cd-r will deliver and not wreck any of the footage. Anyone done/do this?

CD-R hold too little to be of much value. I have started using DVD-10 (a DVD-R, double sided, needs to be flipped) to store small projects. On one side I store a copy in DVD format (mpeg 2) and the other has all the raw elements ( video footage, graphics, voice over, music, sound effects). This only works for small projects like 30 second spots, product demos etc.

I do not recommend reusing mini DV tapes. It my opinion it is not worth the risks.

Jeff

Using a CD-R to archive video is no different than using it to archive any other type of files on your computer. It has no effect on the file. But a CD's capacity is relatively low for video, too low to be of much practical value for that purpose.

I read once that a miniDV tape stores about 13 gigabyte. Is this correct?

It is a little less than 13 gigs per hour. So that is a safe figure and easier to do the math with than 12 and some fraction gigs.

Jeff

DV is 216 MB/minute, so archiving to CD-R isn't practical. You can archive clips to DVD (not MPEG-2, just storage) and I'm sure someone has done the math in terms of cost per gigabyte. The problem is time to access and in the end I'm sure we'll all end up with external firewire drives or removeable drives or some other solution that keeps the files relatively accessible for the fastest possible retrieval. Even as a hobbyist I'm frustrated by the time it takes to recapture from tape or copy back from DVD.

I have been shooting for 21 years.....one of the first rules of thumb is NEVER re-use tape for aquistition...there are WAY too many other things that can go wrong and tape is cheap...give your self a break, and do it right, you will save yourself headaches and money in the long run.

Not speaking as an expert, but as someone that does a lot of shooting, I did want to say that "just for fun" I decided to beat some tapes to death (by rerecording) and see what happened.
I shoot a lot of test footage, so I decided to reuse the same handful of tapes and rerecord them every time I had a test to shoot.
Like everyone else in the forum, if I had an important shoot, of course I'd use a new tape and 1 pass max, and look forward to keeping my archive.
However, the results after more than a year and certainly dozens and dozens of rerecords on my test tapes are that I have no problems whatsoever. No drop outs, no interlace problems; nothing at all...
Further, I DO sometimes get a new tape with a drop out or a problem. (Usually this happens in the middle of my favorite take.) So, part of the reason I wanted to "pipe up" and be a contrarion here was that I suppose it's conceivable that a multi pass tape that you KNOW is a good tape could be more reliable than a brand new tape which could have a defect, or have been exposed to heat or some other storage issue. (I once had a whole batch of Panasonic professional grade tapes with problems.)
Also to be a contrarian again, I have to say that the more expensive "pro" tapes I used to use actually had a higher rate of problems than the consumer tapes I bought. So, given the substantial price difference, I've dropped down to consumer grade tapes without a problem.
I'm shooting largely on a Cannon XH A1, and I've used exclusively Panasonic tapes (since the fear of God has been put into me regarding switching brands. :-)
With my older cameras, I switched tape brands at will, also without problems....
I'm becoming terribly confident in my multipass tapes! Someone stop me before I stripe them and use them for something important!!!! The urge is almost overpowering now!!!!
:-)

Do to my lack of financial resources, I have been re-using my Fuji mini-dv tapes. During the past year I have been re-using them 10-12 times each. I capture my footage, edit what I want to save, then store on hard drives. So far, I have re-used tapes that were shot 3-5 years ago with Canon HV10, 20 and 40's. I have also re-used tapes shot with a friends Sony. So far, no problems or dropouts. I believe a bad tape will go bad, regardless if it's new. Anyway, a tape that is used, and works well, has proven itself. Anyway, a guy has to do what he has to do to save a buck.

Dave

Like Walt, I tried "beating to death" some Sony Digital Master MiniDV tapes when I first got my Z5. IIRC, it was somewhere between nine and a dozen re-records where the camera indicated that the head might be dirty and droupouts began. The camera was brand new, and the head was clean; the warning went away with a fresh tape and I never saw it again. Not particularly confidence-inspiring, and I never reused a tape after that.

Best,
Aaron

Wow, I don't know who is making these "golden rules," but my experience has been different. I started as a news photog when DVC Pro was released and we would cycle tapes at least 10-15 times before they were retired. DVC Pro and DV tape are so similar, you just need an adaptor cassette to play them on DVC Pro decks. To make a long story short, I still use this practice today with HDV tapes with absolutely no problems. High Quality tape is important, though, as well as clean techniques. I currently use Canon Digital Master.

I've had brand new tapes mechanically fail a handful of times and anybody will if you shoot enough. It doesn't happen often, but a new tape doesn't insure 100% anything. Such is life I guess.

I only use new DV tape once, capture it, hold it for post then in some cases give it to the client. I very rarely reuse them.

I'm still using the last of the 250 Panasonic AVDVM83MQ stock I bought from BnH as a close out. It was touted as an 'archival tape.'
But I'm still of the opinion that most manufacturers have only 'one' tape. they just update the packaging .. eg: suddenly HD appears on the shelves.

Panasonic no longer import their DV cleaning tapes to Oz so I bought 10 locally, mainly to sell them with my cams as working units.

Cheers.

I have had dropouts a handful of times throughout the years, and it was on brand-new tapes. Never on tapes that proved reliable the first time and were re-used 2-3 times.

Yes, tape is cheap at about $4 on ebay, but consider that using a tape twice means a 50% drop in your tape budget, 3 times is a 66% drop, etc. That means that if I use 100 tapes three times, I've saved $800 - and I can easily use over 100 tapes a year. From a purely financial standpoint (and I presume that many people here operate a business), coupled with the high-reliability, it's a win-win situation.

Of course, eccentric millionaires who do this for fun and don't have to keep track of expenses can afford to blow $800 out the window. ;-)

Tape is cheap - so why risk re-using old tapes - I'm also starting to do the same with SD cards - the price is at the kind of level where it's just a consumable item. Using a brand new tape is a risk. Using an old one is just increasing it - so why bother? My experience is that it's the older tapes that suddenly trigger the need to clean the heads - storage conditions or just ageing I don't know - so I don't take the risk.

Tape is cheap - so why risk re-using old tapes

Like I said: because using 100 tapes three times saves $800, and there is no risk with good-quality tapes.

It's a no-brainer.

I'm with Walt (reuse) and not with Steve (never reuse). Steve - it sounds like you're advocating using a brand new, totally untested, 22 component mechanical assembly costing all of $3 on a paying project and expecting each tape you unwrap to be perfect? Now there goes a trusting man. Whoooh, I wouldn't use an untested $100 mic on a paying project, let alone a tape.

I too have been shooting tape for very many years and I know the value of tested tape - and it's a lot more valuable than a brand new one. As Paul rightly points out - tape is cheap. As such we should all beware. And think on this - all tape is designed to be re-cycled and re-used. If it wasn't we'd never rewind the stuff to play it into our computers. Recording and playback; from a mechanical stress pov it's all the same to tape.

tom.