So I'm reading an article by the sound guy who writes for DV Magazine, who suggested that the next best thing to recording audio on a DAT recorder could be a MiniDisc recorder, for the low-budget crowd. He was suggesting that recording audio straight into the cam is never as 'quality' as it should be unless you have a pretty nice cam.

Running with this idea, I scoped out some very portable MiniDisc recorders on Sony's site (Shortened URL: http://tinyurl.com/3jla)
and was amazed to find that one for around $200 would, in theory, work just fine. It even has an optical out (My computer's sound card breakout box has optical-in). Or, alternatively, they do USB as well, which anybody should be able to use just fine with their computer.

So what I'm wondering is, has anyone out there used any of these MD recorders? I imagine the usual things would apply - there's no consistent timecode, so you'd have to sync with a clapboard. And, from what I see, the Studio1 XLR-BP Pro will work with a MiniDisc player, meaning you'd be able to, at a very low-budget price, have a sound-guy moving completely independently of the camera.

He could just have a belt with the Studio1 XLR adapter hooked to the MiniDisc recorder on one side, and the Boom coming in from the other with XLR cables. Then you sync up with a clapboard and go from there.

This sounds like a potentially good recording system at a pretty low budget price. Am I missing something, or can it be this easy? I'm definitely no expert, but I don't see why, in theory, this couldn't be a great way to get some pretty darn good audio. But then as they say, in theory, communism works.

Imran,

I've used an MZ-R900. It's an older model that has probably been eclipsed now with something newer and snazzier...but it works fine. I used it to record wild...then had to match up the sound to footage in post. It really wasn't difficult at all.

you certainly have stumbled upon the key to the whole thing. I've been doing sound like this for a bit...using a Sony MZ-R30...process is exactly as you described it. Cheap, high quality, and very very portable!

They are awesome with a sennheiser shot gun plugged in to em.

If you check out BHphotovideo.com they carry several professional MD recorders...much like the portable DATS used for filmmaking and pro sound....problem is they are $$.

c

A thread from several months ago:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3115&highlight=minidisc

we looked into mini disc as well, although it's nice, you still have to upload into your computer in real time, and it's compressed..

so the next step was to see if you can do it all digitally, like to a nomad jukebox, upload hours in mere minutes, uncompressed 48 wave files, record hours of music instead of 80 min, but wait...

no vu meters, big bummer, check out the article

http://toddh.net/music/njb/

I have a HHb PORTADISC which replaced the HHb PORTADAT. The latter gained wide acceptance by filmakers. The new unit has a USB port, so you can just plug it into the computer and download directly. I do this on my Mac G4 and it works great.

For a filim-making related review of the PORTADISC see:
http://www.lafcpug.org/review_mini_disc_rec.html

It is expensive, however. I have had no direct experience with syncing with video, although I bought it with that in mind. It's been very good for the radio actuality work I've used it for so far.

MARANTZ has just come out with a portable that records to full size CD that is a few hundred dollars cheaper. It's aimed more at the music market, I think.

i'd say thats pretty pricy for something that records a compressed signal, with 1 hour max, and 1x transfer speeds...sounds like a really expsive mini disc recorder with bal audio conection

What I wonder is, would a $1500 MD recorder mentioned above really be much better in sound than a consumer $200 MD walkman recorder, with an attached XLR adapter for about $189...? Also, I've never heard of one of those consumer walkman MD recorders 'freezing up' as the review of the above product mentions.

Also, regarding compression, everything I've read about the standard MiniDisc compression technique, ATRAC I think it's called, can run pretty much side by side with any CD quality audio. So compression doesn't seem like much of a concern regardless of the recorder.

i'm not so sure, for that much cash i would want at least 48 uncompressed to match my cam so i don't have to re-sample...

One also has to count in the cost of good quality digital in to whatever NLE set up one is using. In the PORTADISC case this is USB audio out directly from the unit. The "digitizing" step happens outside the computer which is good.

In my case it made sense because I also produce radio news actualities and news stories for clients and this gave me the capacity to do this in the field with the addition of just my lap-top. There is also an issue of "robustness" if the thing gets bumped around on a regular baisis. The 1/8 jacks on consumer equip have never held up well for me.

The PORTADISC also gives me a certain status with other news organization reps and bouncers at press events -- obviously not considerations everyone needs to worry about. The cost was taken care of in a few jobs.

BTW, I've never had the unit freeze on me the way the review describes -- maybe because of updates to the software.

Just a follow-up on this long-running thread.

I just purchased an HHb MD500 Portadisc, largely on the strength of Peter's remarks (thank you very much Peter) and on the LAFCUG review he referenced. I've not yet had a chance to master it but, to briefly answer the question concerning whether there's a difference between this unit and a consumer Sony recorder, the answer is a resounding "uh huh". As Peter noted, this unit is built to take a a lickin' and keep on tickin'. It's clearly designed for the rigors of professional use.

It's also very easy to upload tracks to a Mac. Simply connect the USB cable, fire-up (in my case) Peak and tell it to "record" from the Portadisc while setting the Portadisc to "play" the track. Yes, it would be great if the minidisc could simply be mounted like a CD to enable simple copying of track files. But that's the nature of minidisc.

In terms of features, the Portadisc has quite a bevy of controls (bass roll-off, clipping control, attenuation, the ability to provide phantom power, etc.), few of which I've yet mastered.

So, yes, it is a different level of gear from a consumer Sony recorder. And yes, it's a rather expensive piece of gear which may be overkill for most hobbyists and even many semi-pro's.

You can learn more about this unit, and downoload the product's brochure and operating manual, at the HHb site (http://www.hhbusa.com/000/usa.htm).

Ken,

Oh gosh, now I feel responsible . . .

I hope you will post an account of any experience with syncing PORTADISC recordings with DV -- this is something I haven't done yet, but may have to do soon.

"Synch-ing"? What is that?

Just kidding. Yes, I'll report back. (I also grabbed a clap slate when I bought the MD500.) It should be a cinch.

One point that hasn't been mentioned is size. The consumer sony MD's can be conveniently hidden on an actor whereas something bigger becomes much harder. I know you were talking about the boom op having one but if you got a consumer model you could use it for lav on actor and boom.

Agreed! The newest ones are tiny! Mine is smaller than a 1.44 floppy disc in length and height. In fact, it's barely bigger than a minidisc itself.

Aaron, it's a good point about the size, but in that case you lose the benefit of being able to monitor the recording and watch the levels during the take.

Just a follow-up on using the MD500 with DV.

Importing audio from the HHb MD500, while certainly an extra chore, is relatively simple. Here are the dance steps I followed with Final Cut Pro and Peak DV 3.10.

1. Connect USB cable from MD500 to Mac. Power-up the MD500 (very important for the next steps).

2. Open Peak DV. From the menu, select Audio > Record Settings. Then click the Device and Sample Format from the resultant panel.

3. Click the Source tab and select the "PORTADISC" from the list of available sources. Note that this seleection will not appear if the MD500 is not powered-up or connected to the Mac properly.

4. Returning back to Peak DV's main menu you will now follow the same procedure as you would for recording a clip. That is, click the Record button to bring-up the record control panel. Press Play on the MD500 and Record on Peak DV.

5. After grabbing a clip in Peak, convert the sampling rate to 48KHz (it comes in at 44KHz) and save as an .AIF file.

6. In Final Cut Pro, capture the video clip if you've not already done so. (I kept the onboard mic on, to make step 11 simpler.)

7. Now import the .AIF file containing the MD500 audio.

8. Place the video (and its on-cam audio) clip onto the timeline.

9. Now drop the .AIF onto the timeline in a separate set of audio tracks adjacent to the video clip's onboard audio tracks.

10. Turn the Waveform Display for the sequence "on". (Sequence > Settings > Timeline Options).

11. Align the .AIF clip with the on-board audio, using your slate clap (or whatever you used for synch cue) as your landmark. You should clearly see both of the spikes from the clap on both audio clips. Alternately enable/disable each audio source as you scrub back and forth to get perfect synch. When you think you've got it, activate both audio sets and listen closely. If it sounds like there's reverberation or two "claps" you synch is off by a fraction of a frame or so.

12. Once you're reached perfect synch you can drop the clip's on-board audio and lock the MD500 audio to your video clip.

This looks like a great deal of work and complexity. Certainly it's more work than just using on-tape audio. (It looks like it would be a bit less work if you were using a camera that used standard time-code recording, since the MD500 can handle that, too.) But if you need the advantages that external audio can offer it's certainly worth the effort.

For those following this thread and considering purchasing the HHb MD500 PORTADISC recorder, I thought I'd add just a few more remarks which might prove helpful. The Operators' Manual is complete but terse and offers few application tips. I cannot claim to have mastered this great piece of gear yet but I have learned a few tidbits. I won't attempt to recite the manual here, but rather provide a few comments that aren't noted explicitly in the manual or in the LAFCPUG review (http://www.lafcpug.org/review_mini_disc_rec.html) that Peter noted earlier in this thread.

RECORDING
MiniDiscs are recorded by tracks as a way of organizing the disc's contents similar to that of a cd.

The PortaDisc's out-of-the-box settings are a bit unusual with regard to its use of tracks. By default, it begins new tracks according to a dB threshold setting! That is, when it detects the mic's signal level drops below -30dB it will close the current track and start a new one. (This drove me a bit looney for a few hours, as it was unexpected.)

As a practical matter for use in audio recording for videography and filmmaking, I think most such users would prefer that the disc's tracks correspond with shots or some similar measure relating to their shooting. So, the first adjustment at-hand will be to defeat this feature by:

1. setting the Auto-Increment Function to Manual and

2. setting the Auto Start/Cut Recording to No

as documented on pages 18-19 of the manual.

With this change, you will have to start new tracks by pressing the Mark button, typically at the start of a shot.

It is possible to label each track, but that's likely to be far too cumbersome in practical use. Much more practical for the sound recordist/boom operator to manually log the tracks with pen and paper.

Playback (for capture)
By default, the MD500 operates just like a consumer MiniDisc player during playback. That is, it will begin playing from its current position and will continue playing each subsequent track until it reaches the end of the disc's contents.

For videographers who have marked their tracks carefully according to shots and scenes it will be most practical to playback individual tracks when capturing the sound to their computer for editing.

So, to disable continuous play you'll have to set Auto-Pause Mode to Yes according to the directions on page 20 of the manual.

BATTERIES
The HHb MD500 PORTADISC can use a/c power and/or 8 AA alkaline or NiMH rechargable batteries. Its power adapter can also recharge a NiMH cartridge in-place. (Make sure the "charge" switch in the battery compartment is set to "On" for this feature). It is also supplied with a spare battery cartridge, which you'll probably use if you plan to record in the field for extended periods. The MD500 drinks power like an ex-Enron exec. I recommend getting the highest capacity NiMH batteries you can find (I use 1700 mAh Energizers) and make certain they are at full capacity before setting off on a shoot.

SCHLEPPING
The carrying case supplied with the HHb MD500 PORTADISC is basically functional but very spartan and not very weather resistant. If your budget allows, I recommend upgrading to the PortaBrace case specifically designed for this recorder (http://portabrace.com/asp/ProdDesc.asp?DescCode=ARC). It's well-designed and meticulously detailed to provide easy access to all controls and cable ports. It also offers the comfort of PB's highly-padded adjustable strap. As with other PB cases it's also constructed of weatherproof, nearly indestructible heavy Cordura nylon fabric.

This may be more than most of you wanted to know about this unit. But I discovered a relative paucity of videography application information about it on the Web and, since there's increasing interest in it, I thought I'd add a bit more first-hand knowledge for y'all.

Thanks for the in-depth review, Ken! I'm wondering if this is a product I might find useful. I'm shooting a MiniDV feature this summer with a Panny DVX100, and I know very little about sound recording on location. Is this MD500 Portadisc appropriate if I'm planning to transfer this project to film later on? Or should I just stick with the on-board XLR's of the DVX100? Do you know if there's a big difference in the sound quality between the two? I'm not worried about the extra time and labor of synching the audio to the picture, but the sound quality and ease of use while recording is very important to me. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Jaime

Jaime,
I've never used the DVX100. I know that Jay Rose, a sound recordist frequently writing for trade mags, remarked in a recent article that it has very good sound compared to its peers.

Location sound is a whole cult onto itself, as you've probably begun to learn. (I'm not a 'sound guy' either.) Professionals will argue about mic and recording arcanities to the death. I never thought that the sound through my XL1s/MA-200 was bad at all.

Personally, I got into this by searching for a way to break the physical link between the camera and the mic while still providing the boom operator with headphone monitoring abilities. (I've since found a more economical way (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5962).)

But I still think that the MD500 is a valuable tool to have. I've not tested it extensively yet but I did do a head-to-head test with two Sony ECM55B lav mics, one wired to the MD500, the other wired to my XL1s/MA-200. They were at least equivalent in quality with the MD500 perhaps being a bit smoother.

So off-hand, looking at your project and the early reviews of the DVX100's sound, knowing nothing else I guess I'd recommend you consider the wireless boom technique in the thread above. The MM-1 preamp costs 1/3 the price of the MD-500. You can get a very good wireless system for $500 or less. Much easier of the budget.