Will it be possible to record DVCproHD out the XLH1 to something as portable as a FireStore? Or even a laptop (PowerBook in my case) with a PCMCIA card with SDI input?

If so, it would make it much easier to compare the XLH1 with the HVX200, leaving the output argument aside and thinking more about their input differences.

Sorry if this has been discussed before, just couldn't find it.

The XL H1 will only output HDV through firewire and the firestore FS-4 should be compatible if you have the upgraded firmware or something like that.

As for DVCPRO HD the firewire on the H1 will definetly not output it unless Canon has a really big secret they don't want to share. But a DVCPRO HD deck connected via HD-SDI is another solution. Not likely to be strapped onto the camera though, more of a teathered setup but who knows. Panasonic might see this as a market and decide to build a P2 Based HD-SDI deck (Don't think they have already, but I could be hughly mistaken).

I'm sure their will be some portable HD-SDI solutions that will strap onto the XL H1 sooner than later.

Panasonic might see this as a market and decide to build a P2 Based HD-SDI deck (Don't think they have already, but I could be hughly mistaken).Yes there is a P2 deck with SDI input. It is a studio VTR, not really very portable. It is the AJ-SPD850. However it does not record high definition; instead it records DVCPRO 50. However I wouldn't be surprised if there is a DVCPRO HD version of this deck already in the works.

So something like a FireStore with SDI-in that could record DVCproHD is out of the question?

DVCPRO HD is a format owned by Panasonic. They hold the license and they choose who gets to use it. It is highly unlikely there will ever be any sort of a non-Panasonic company providing a solution for encoding DVCPRO HD. It's strictly Panasonic's territory.

OK. I understand. Then this makes it hard to compare the H1 and the HVX side by side, since it isn't apples to apples. The codec, in this case, seems to be a pretty heavy decision.

Any such thing as a Pcmcia card with SDI-in to record DVCproHD to a PowerBook?

Any such thing as a Pcmcia card with SDI-in to record DVCproHD to a PowerBook?No such thing that I am aware of, sorry.

I plan on doing this exactly for some in-studio shoots. XLH1 to DVCPROHD deck via HD-SDI.... the downside is that the deck is about $25k+


ash =o)

Ash, the AJ-HD1200A deck is nowhere near that expensive! It's only $21,000.

:-P

If no portable and affordable DVCproHD recording solution appears for the H1, then many of us, even though we would spend the extra dough on it, because we are in the Canon XL tradition and like it, will have to migrate to Panasonic HVX and P2. It's a pity because we would only be deciding based on what codec we can record in rather than on what camera we like the best.

If you simply must have DVCPRO HD right now, and if DVCPRO HD deck rental is not practical for you, then yes you'll need to migrate to the Panasonic HVX200 and adopt the P2 workflow.

The XL H1 is not a replacement for the XL2. The H1 is primarily targeted at small TV stations, medium size production companies that do live switching, and other applications involving crewed shoots with rented VTRs on a regular basis.

XL2 owners should carefully consider whether or not they need HD immediately, and realize that the XL H1 is only the first such camcorder from Canon... other models in varying price ranges and capabilities are sure to follow. Maybe the next one will not have SDI output, for instance, or perhaps it will be less expensive than the XL H1.

That said, you should not dismiss the HDV format until you've seen what the XL H1 can do with it.

But Chris, for example, for a small feature to be bumped to 35, would you still compare the H1's HDV to the HVX's DVCproHD?

Successful features have been bumped to 35mm from standard definition DV... so personally I don't think the format matters nearly as much as camera ergonomics and feature set. The right camera for your feature is the one which your DP feels most comfortable using, has the desired feature set and image output quality, records a format that your editor can handle and which fits your budget.

For some people this camera will be an HVX200, for others an XL H1 and for some folks it will be something else entirely. The choice of recording format is not going to impact a small 35mm feature film that much in my opinion. So many other factors concerning low budget filmmaking are so much more important than the video format.

Of course, almost 10 years ago I've seen the Celebration shot with a singlechip Sony PC1 or something like that. Loved it. Aesthethic went along good story and very good acting.

Anyway, I will have to wait for these two cams to be out and compare both side by side to make a decision. But I do want the best quality, and, from what most people are saying, I'm getting the idea that DVCproHD is right in the middle of HDV and HD. If I confirm this with my own eye, it wouldn't be so cruel to betray Canon, after having owned A1, L1 and XL1 camcorders, and migrate to P2. When some people see my last film, a doc shot with a PAL XL1, they ask if it is HD or 16mm, it really looks beautiful, but I'm hungry for more visual quality, really, it isn't just silly obsesive pixel ambition. And that color space difference between both formats sounds decisive.

I understand where you're coming from Federico. I think the biggest difference between the XLH1 and the HVX200 will be the changes in your production workflow when working with P2. Personally I feel that P2 is ideal for a filmmaking environment.

Absolutely.

If you simply must have DVCPRO HD right now, and if DVCPRO HD deck rental is not practical for you, then yes you'll need to migrate to the Panasonic HVX200 and adopt the P2 workflow.

Chris - I'm not a Mac guy but I thought there was another solution using the Decklink HD card and FCP5 to digitise directly to DVCPro50/HD?

Would that work as a cheaper solution than a Studio VTR?

John,
the Decklink HD is for Desktop machines, what would complicate outdoor shooting. But a PCMCIA version for a laptop would make it much easier for outdoor scenes.

John,
the Decklink HD is for Desktop machines, what would complicate outdoor shooting. But a PCMCIA version for a laptop would make it much easier for outdoor scenes.

First off, if anybody can do it, than it will be the BlackMagic Design folks who will come out with an HD/SD SDI card for notebooks. However, it will definitely NOT be a PCMCI card, as that technology won't be able to handle a tenth of the data throughput required. Think of a PCI-X (PCI Express) 16x card instead. And you have to have a good 2GB or dual channel DDR2 533 MHz systems RAM and 256 MB of video RAM.

Two such notebooks off the top of my head (we happen to own both) come to mind: HP's zd800 and ALIENWARE's Area-51. With the HP, you can get an HP dv8000z with dual hard drives;and the ALIENWARE you can get with twin HDs arranged in a RAID 0 config.

Admittedly, I don't know much about the Macs (and prefer to leave it that way...) :~))

So... we do have topliner power-user notebooks out there that could technically handle HD data input stream.... while we are still working on the interface (HD/SD SDI capture card for mobile PCI-X 16x).

Right now, you can build a nifty little SFF (small form factor) PC that is highly portable and can use the desktop version of one of the DeckLink HD cards. Remember, even the smallest and most portable desktop will be able to do more than the mightiest of laptops...

Successful features have been bumped to 35mm from standard definition DV... so personally I don't think the format matters nearly as much as camera ergonomics and feature set. The right camera for your feature is the one which your DP feels most comfortable using, has the desired feature set and image output quality, records a format that your editor can handle and which fits your budget.

For some people this camera will be an HVX200, for others an XL H1 and for some folks it will be something else entirely.

So true. I am a tad unsure as to why Frederico wants to marry the Canon X2 H1 to a Panasonic DVCPro HD VTR. Chris, you are right: these manufacturers are territorial like a 1,000 pound male King Kong of the washed-out recent remake vintage. The venom that is being created and tossed about between and amongst JVC and Panasonic and Sony is mind-boggling.

Canon has a different position... their X2 H1 is their top gun, he Canon kitty's miaw. Now, with Sony, for example, their HVR-Z1 is a bottom dweller... Sony has at least two, maybe three tiers of cameras and standards top of their three-chip HDV offering. Hey, you want TRUE HD SDI out, fine, get one of their CineAlta camcorders and you shall have it. May even get some change back from your USD $100,000 note (if you bring your own lens, that is).

My company produced a feature film that was shot on film, with the footage telecined to Sony Digital Betacam (4:3 A/R SD) and Sony HDCAM (16:0 A/R HD). This is rather pricey, of course... but film is film. Whereas you can certainly shoot a feature onto DV and then blow it up from DV video to 35mm neg, it is kind of a Frankensteinian approach, in my opinion.

But back to the Canon X2 H1 hook-up. Yes, it has HD/SD SDI OUT. But is the signal coming out 8-bit or 10-bit? Does anyone know for sure at this point?

If it is 10-bit, then yes, you can hook the H1 to a portable DVCPro VTR or to the portable Sony DVCAM VTR, and you've got it. That still leaves the issue of how you going to transfer to tape the digital audio and the time code... as I understand the X2 H1 will only give you picture via the SDI OUT connection... not audio or TC.

Life was definitiely easier back in the Super 8 era, hmmm? ;-))

Editing is not my main skill but I do enough of it to know that editing DVCPRO-HD requires some fast drives. To keep your workflow similar to DV you need a fibre raid, I believe it will do 5-7 streams of DVCPRO-HD. You can get a small firewire raid with 10,000RPM drives but those arent cheap either and still relatively small.

I am sure there are cheaper ways to do it but you will be really bogged down.



ash =o)

I've got a PowerBook 17 and 2 Terabytes of LaCie Extreme FireWire 800 drives. Not fast enough for DVCproHD?
If not, can I implement this Fibre raid you are talking about with the equip I've already got?

You can rig anything to work... it will just be slower than DV, in some cases, PAINFULLY slow =o) The real trick is outputting your full rez edit which, in most workflows, will have to be done in real time.


ash =o)

I've got a PowerBook 17 and 2 Terabytes of LaCie Extreme FireWire 800 drives. Not fast enough for DVCproHD?
If not, can I implement this Fibre raid you are talking about with the equip I've already got?

DVCProHD is 100Mb/s. The sustained rate of what you describe should easily handle a couple of streams of IF hooked up via FW 800 bus. But I would advise testing first. The problem for capturing though is transcoding on the fly to that codec requires a great deal of computing power - you really need a hardware encoder.

Right now, you can build a nifty little SFF (small form factor) PC that is highly portable and can use the desktop version of one of the DeckLink HD cards. Remember, even the smallest and most portable desktop will be able to do more than the mightiest of laptops...

Exactly - these would be way cheaper than any notebook. Obviously it's not a fully portable situation, but then neither is a laptop/notebook . I mentioned the Decklink card in preference to a studio VTR, not a laptop.

Capturing wouldn't be a problem if using P2.

Capturing wouldn't be a problem if using P2.

Why not? Is there a separate P2 recorder to the HVX200, that will accept HD-SDI and transcode on the fly from the XLH1? The only units I see on Panasonic's website are transfer units, one with a built in hard disk, one PC feeder unit with a USB2 connection to the laptop/PC (which seems a strange choice in itself, given that the rest of the acquisition path is IEEE).

I meant that if you insert a P2 card in the laptop and copy the file to your hardrive, you don't need to capture anymore, which is the hardest task. Then editing DVCproHD material with FCP, PBook G4 and FW800 LaCies seems much more fluid.

I meant that if you insert a P2 card in the laptop and copy the file to your hardrive, you don't need to capture anymore, which is the hardest task. Then editing DVCproHD material with FCP, PBook G4 and FW800 LaCies seems much more fluid.
Still confused - how would you get the video on to the P2 card - this is an XLH1 thread isn't it? If you are just talking about capturing already acquired material in DVCProHD you don't need P2 cards to do that. Think we are talking at cross purposes here.

Editing is not my main skill but I do enough of it to know that editing DVCPRO-HD requires some fast drives. To keep your workflow similar to DV you need a fibre raid, I believe it will do 5-7 streams of DVCPRO-HD. You can get a small firewire raid with 10,000RPM drives but those arent cheap either and still relatively small.

I am sure there are cheaper ways to do it but you will be really bogged down.
ash =o)

John, you're right, the post took a turn when Ash put the accent on editing. I followed and, since I'm interested in both cams (H1 and HVX), it became off thread. Sorry for this. I guess we can move it or just let it die here.

John, you're right, the post took a turn when Ash put the accent on editing. I followed and, since I'm interested in both cams (H1 and HVX), it became off thread. Sorry for this. I guess we can move it or just let it die here.

No probs - understand now that I know your interested in HVX..

Interesting thread... What we really need to make all this work in everyone's favor is an open standards based HD format that is less lossy than HDV. If I am correct, DVCPro HD is based on Motion JPEG, which is an open standard, AFAIK. Given that, someone could indeed come up with a non-proprietary HD format with similar qualities as DVCPro HD. H.264/AVC could be up to the task, as well, and that's non-proprietary, but the compression may be lossier than Motion JPEG, I don't know.

Once a suitable format is in place, manufacturers such as Focus Enhancements (of FireStore fame) could develop ASICs (application specific integrated circuits) that would encode HD SDI on-the-fly. With the current roadmap of low-power, high-performance DSPs available from a number of manufacturers, it could very well be possible to even arrive at a portable design.

The 100 Mbps (Megabits per second) datarate of DVCPro HD was a good choice by Panasonic, IMO. It translates into 12.5 MBps (Megabytes per second), which current portable HDs and fast flash memory can handle well (as the P2 system proves). If a non-proprietary format would adopt a similar datarate, a DTD-device could write more than two hours of it onto a 100 GB disk. Not bad, I'd say.

Now I only wish such a device was already available on the market. And I won't be surprised if something along those lines shows up before long.

In the meantime, I agree with Chris: don't dismiss HDV. I have seen footage of Sony's prosumer HDV-line, and it was stunning. Granted, there's not much headroom for color correction or making up for lighting mistakes when editing. But if you get it right when you shoot it, the quality can be truly outstanding.

I'm very much eying the XL H1 as an upgrade for my XL-1s, particularly because it has HD SDI output. While I may not be able to utilize the HD SDI from the get-go in mobile applications, I'm quite confident that I will be able to do so at some point down the line before the rig becomes obsolete.

These are fun times!

Cheers from snowy Switzerland,

Ron

Edit: just checked up on H.264/AVC at Wikipedia (what a great tool!) --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H264
While it appears that the compression is higher than previous codec architectures (including MPEG-2, on which HDV is based), recently completed standardization on the so-called Fidelity Range Extensions (FRExt) to the H.264/AVC standard are very interesting. Among other features, these extensions support YUV 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 chroma sub-sampling and 10 or even 12 bit coding. Maybe H.264 is our savior? At any rate, I can recommend the Wikipedia article. It's a good read...