There's a shortage of info out there on shooting smooth video from a sailboat...if indeed this is at all possible. Even small boat movements have confounded me like in the long rotating pan here:

http://rapidshare.de/files/7425011/ending.wmv.html

I've looked at these: http://www.horizontrue.com/ but their mounts only do 1 axis. So my question is basically what the stablizing gurus would suggest for a platform that yaws, pitches and rolls with an amplitude at times of several feet. Under sail, the boat is heeled over at up to 45 degrees, but relatively stable in this axis.

I'm not convinced that anything will work given the amplitude of motion, but I wonder if a small gimballed jib clamped to the boat would work. The jib could easily handle a 4 foot vertical range.

This is actually one situation where the Steadicam is a perfect tool.

One of it's key principles is the angular isolation offered by it's gimble.
The example normally used to describe a Steadicam gimble is a gimble compass on a boat.. so definatly coming from the right direction.

The key question is mounting and stregth.
A big Steadicam can take 1 foot "bumps" [potholes in a road for example] when hardmounted, and 2 foot "bumps" when worn by an operator.
The Steadicam Merlin manual says to limit the forces to 1.5G - But i'm suspecting that is the limit for it's full capacity, using a lighter camera it shodul be able to take a bit more of a beating.

Either way, if you are shooting in rolling seas (even with bigger waves) this should not be a problem as the actual moves are generally prety soft - now chrshing through hard waves is a differnet story and theat could jar up a rig prety bad if you hit hard, but would you be shooting then?

Of course a big factor is your camera. If it's a big (shoulder mounted) camera then you'd need a full rig. And this is a different kettle of fish ;)

But I'm going to hazard a guess that you are using a handheld camcorder, in which case I think the Steadicam Merlin would be a perfect solution for you - nice and light to carry with you on the boat, and folds away nice and small for stowage when not in use.
It should be available any day now.

- Mikko

I was looking at the Glidecam but was thinking that it simply would not be able to handle the range of motion in the vertical axis. In looking at the steadicam designs I don't understand how they would isolate large vertical changes.

My other question is using a small stablilizer in wind and on a pitching deck. Is this possible? From what I've read here and elsewhere, wind is an issue, and shielding is impossible on a racing sailboat. I haven't invested in (nor have I attempted to use) a stabilizer for these reasons. I'm pretty sure no one rents the equipment locally...otherwise I'd try it.

The camera is the GS400 with a WA lens and RODE VM mic.

Thanks for ringing in on this Mikko. I was hoping for a voice of experience like yours...

Hard-mounting a Steadicam to a boat can be a difficult concept. I did this once (with an Imax camera, lord help me!) and found that once in the open ocean with minor swells, I had to expend a great deal of energy absorbing the vertical movement to keep the arm from bottoming (and topping) out. Body-mounted would have likely been better for this, but worse in terms of maintaining balance--Steadicam becomes rather unpleasant if the "ground" underfoot is constantly shifting its orientation. The smaller the rig, the less this effect however, so a little camera on a Flyer might be OK and certainly the handheld rigs.

Another thought is to eliminate the arm and mount the rig directly to the deck, via vehicle mount/clamp to a structure etc. This will allow the gimbal to do its work of stabilizing the pitch and roll but will still include the rise and fall; however, this may be preferable in some instances. If shooting boat-to-boat, it likely won't be noticeable; if including some of the foreground boat in the picture, it will reduce the apparent movement of said boat.

In all instances, wind is the enemy and care should be taken to provide proper wind screening. If possible, use the wheelhouse or other structure to provide a natural block from the headwind.

Yeah.. Wind...
As the real voice of experience (CP) says, you would need ways to shield your rig from the wind.
Once you isolate an object form the ground/a mount/person etc, it becomes much more suceptable to outside influence.. most notably the wind.

As Charles said, find some natrual wind shelter, the wheelhouse, behind the sail (or even in front of it at times), use your (or someone elses) body. - dont' forget you can also backtop the wind be beeing upwind of somehtign wolid like a wall. If it's really windy then might be advisabel to close the LCD on the camera, but then framing is up to your instincts (which can be done with a bit of practice).

That's another nice thing about the Merlin's size it has a very small area succeptabel to wind, even the weights are arodynamic.


As for vertical movement.. this is somehtign that you will always have ot deal with, short of having a HUGE rig that would support the camera (like a big Steadicam arm) in space it's not feasble, but very often it's uncesarry.

If you are shooting people on the same boat as you, then you would probably want to move with them. And if you are shooting between boats as Charles said, or (especially) at scenery, then 4feet really isn't very much.

Mostly smoothing your shots depends on that angular isolation, and those the rigs can handle. With a nice light camera liek the GS400, the Merlin should be able to handle prety decent sized bumps too, I doubt you'd have any problem of it failing.


- Mikko

Ok, so it sounds like a small stabilizer is worth a try. Now without rehashing all the glidecam vs steadicam discussions, what are your opinions on using the Glidecam 2000 in this situation? I have a well equipped shop so fabbing up an "industrial" variant is also not out of the question...but I'd prefer to stick with a commercial product. The Merlin looks and sounds good on paper...but price (and I'm sure it's worth it), is an issue particularly as this is still just a hobby. I just bought a collection of Bogen grip heads, cam mount, superclamp, and 20 feet of 5/8" aluminum rod....so hard mounting on one of the rear stanchions/rail is entirely possible. Thanks Charles..I've seen your reel, nuf said!

Compensating for Sea State motion is very much one of the 'Black Arts' - ask any Naval Architect and has been the subject of long study for centuries (for firing guns and weapons etc)

That aside I personally would recommend shooting with a HD camera and take a DV patch from that - aided and abetted with some serious motion stabilisation software, and it is here where I would sink my funds rather than a mechanical solution. Also shoot relatively high shutter speed >1/250sec and use a motion blur package to restore the blur based on the motion vectors within the stabilised footage

Generally a mechanical stabilizer will work wonders before a electronic solution.
Also, a HD cam is rather pricy.

The GC2k is an ok rig.
Personaly I prefer the Steadicam Merlin (or a JR - available cheap on e-bay (or even new for same as a GC2k)) becuse of the way you hold it, and the overall weight of the system.
The GC is pretty heavy, the JR and Merlin are much lighter (_especially_ the Merlin).
And more importantly, the Gimble on the JR and Merlin is above your hand, so the wight of the system is on your hand. With the GC's the gimble is off to the side, putting continuous leverage on your wrist increasing fatigue.

Any of the handheld rigs (with a gimble) will work very well for you.
One major thing that the increase in price can be viewed as, is an increase in shooting time before you get tired. And in my personal oppinon the Merlin does a much better job of stabilizing the camera too.

- Mikko

Charles, Mikko, and John, thanks very much for your experienced input. You've all given me a few things to think about. I have done some experiments with vdub and deshaker then cropping 16:9 to 2.35. The output is pretty good and I can see where starting with HD would help...but I'm not going anywhere near HD until the media, standards and price issues resolve themselves (as they will). My next cam will almost certainly be a DVX100b or an XL2.

Mikko, I understand the fatigue issue well as I've been playing around with intertial stabilization a bit on the cheap. One thing on the Junior and Merlin vs. the glidecam (keeping in mind I've never used any of these) that I've wondered about is isolated vertical movement. With the Steadicam products, it would appear that movement straight up or down would be directly imparted to the platform. The GC2K looks like it would flex at the handle with your wrist taking the vertical component. Is this a fair analysis or am I missing something fundamental? I would assume once either is solidly mounted (like to a stanchion), this becomes a non issue?

Edit: I just read the Merlin manual online. The purchase price is certainly justified. I'm amazed at the level of detail and engineering that's gone into it....very slick.

Dennis,

As I was reading these posts I thought that a 3-axis stabilizer would hold vertical better with the rig bottom heavy. This normally would cause pendelum problems but if the sailboat is going at a constant velocity then maybe it would work. An interesting thing to try out.

I've shot on the back of powerboats and the wind was the biggest problem. Zooms were very tuff too (shooting waterskiers). The rig did take the bounce out of the shot though.

Smooth shooting,

Tery

Dennis,
If you look closer, and consider carefully how gimbles work. both are nothing more than a fulcum on all axis at the same point.

In a JR/Merlin the central point is inside the lille "ball" looking bit that is the gimble. In the GCs the cental poin is in the center of the post in the middle of the gimble yolk.

In either design, all the gimble does is allow the handle to pivot around this point. (angular isolation) Niether really has any 'give' in the vertical domain.

That beeing said, you are correct about the wrist taking some vertical movement with the GC. Because the handle on the GC is out to the side, if you move your arm arm up sudenly and let the handle twist a little in your hand, it can move up a little, turning around the gimble as it does (in the same way a tripod pan handle would when you tilt.) The result would be a little 'give' on the vertical axis. BUT you really don't want that handle loose in your hand. - That in fact is one of the GC 'features' I don't like, because each time you bump, that twisting action puts tourque on your wrist.
You could also hold the handle of the JR/Merlin out ot the side and get the same effect - though the handle of course can't be turned as high up because of the stage.

As your assumption about solid mounting points out; opertaing them (holding them solidly) correctly, both rigs will give you the same [theoretical] isolation.

However, one of the payoffs for the big weight and gimble design is that I'd presume the GC gimble to be much stonger when it come to brute forces it can take-- so with a heavy camera and jaring bumps (unlikly shooting conditions) it would probably last longer.


It is a very interesting project you have going. Keep us posted and let us know how it goes.

- Mikko

Well, it was -10C here this morning (although Lake Superior won't freeze until Jan/Feb, so the update post is going to take awhile :-)

I am considering using a shortened version of my jib, on a gimballed support (like the GC centre bearing) and taking advantage of some the principles of the various stablilizers. Having it counterbalanced however won't help as the same inertial changes would apply to both camera and counterweight. This I would presume is why the articulated vest arms use springs. If you were to jump a bit in a full steadicam vest/arm config, is the arm calibrated to maintain the camera's position in space?

-10C.. BRRRrrr.. winter is coming for us north-hemisphearians .. I think it was about -5C here in Finland this morning.

Hmm.. a big steadicam using a jib.. interesting idea.
Check out this thread on HBS for a similar project involving Kite Buggies on a beach: http://hbsboard.com/index.php/topic,1328.0.html

Yes, the idea of the arm on a full rig is to hold the weight of the sled in space ireletive ot the movements of the operator. And "Iso-Elastic" system will keep teh sprign sin balance with the weight of the sled and it won't move at all as the opertor/mount moves unless moved. A non Iso-elastic arm will more springy and return to the cental point, so if you step up onto a curb from the street; the rig will (smmothly) boom up with you. - Both systems have their merits.
Of course once you totally isolate the sled, you need to control it or it won't move at all!

- Mikko

Interesting discourse there. I loved his footage. Rigid mounting is a heck of a lot simpler..and works great for on-boat shots. In fact, a gimballed/stablized mount would not be my first choice for filming crew work (on the same boat as the camera) during a race. I've found that transitions like tacks and jibes look better with the camera position fixed relative to the boat. Even though the boat and crew may move through 90 degrees of horizon during a tack, the focus is on crew work, so the wildly fluctuating horizon is not an issue.

It's when filming the action around you that stabilization becomes an issue. During an A-fleet start, it is not uncommon for 20 boats, each from 8000 to 20000lbs to be converging on a 200 foot start line, from different angles at up to 10 knots of speed. What I've found is that to capture the essence of these moments, you need first to have some of your attention off the camera to anticipate upcoming encounters, and be very quick to set up for these shots...by very quick I mean seconds. As the boat I'm shooting from is also racing, a sudden tactical call may result in crash tacks, etc during which the boat will change it's deck angle by up to 90 degrees and the leeward rail, at the back where you can stay out of way, can become submerged. So, long story short, I need to be ready to move in an instant, over a distance of about 8 feet, dodge a boom swinging by, keep myself from falling overboard, brace myself on a wet 45 degree slope (sometimes more) and still have decent video. I end up using my tripod as a monopod for starts....which is OK, but by no means stabilized. I've also found that hanging the whole rig overboard and holding the tripod (701RC2 on 028 legs...heavy!) just under the head keeps the rig relatively level. Very often I have a leg hooked on a rail to keep myself from falling back into the boat.

You know, it sounds like I just prescribed a small hand held stabilizer like the Merlin didn't I?

Dennis,

Shooting on a racing boat is a whole different situation than any other marine shots. Cruising boats, commercial boats, etc. are usually more laid back with adequate room to work. Steady rigs, bulkhead bracing, shooting from your knees to lower your center of effort, these are all options on open deck venues where people are not vying to be the first to throw you overboard if you get in their way.

I live and work on the Gulf coast and we do a lot of work in the marine environment, including racing sailboats. I have tried most, if not all of the suggestions made here and found none of them satisfactory. Nomally, due to the limited amount of room and the need to be able to move quickly, duck a jibing boom, not get tangled in sheets, or getting an elbow in the gut by a zealous tailer, your body and camera are it.

My final conclusion is there is no better solution in these situations than to just practice holding the camera and letting your body feel the rhythm of the boat, then moving with it. Holding the camera away from your eye and using the flipout is the place to start. After that, just loosen up, feel the boat reacting to the wave action. Learn to anticipate when the bow is going to crash into a wave. The vessel will have a little stutter at that point. Feel for it, anticipate it, prepare for it. If you are on a run, the vessel will have a tendency to roll side to side. If you pay attention you will begin to notice a rhythm. Go with it.

Not everything you shoot will be glass smooth but, that's okay. The deck of a race boat, especially on a start or tack, is an action scene. Let the camera go with it.

By the way, If you are rhythmically challenged as I am, get a friend to teach you some dance moves. That's really what you are doing on the deck of a rolling pitching boat anyway. Just practice, it will eventually become second nature.

Robert

Robert, have you tried a hand held stabilizer? If so, which one?

For most of my off-boat shots I'm at the rear of our IMX38 which has a beautifully laid out cockpit. I have "free" reign of a platform seat (on which I stand) running from starboard to port right at the stern. Normally a back stay (rigid) and the boom swinging across are my only physical obstacles in that space. Now for the action shots of crew working, I'm always either on tripod or lying/sitting somewhere on the deck rail etc ... after two years, I'm getting a better sense of what shots work. My absolute favourite is in this montage clip (http://rapidshare.de/files/7424854/montage.wmv.html) (around 2/3's of the way in). The shot in question was done by extending the tripod to six feet, walking forward with the cam pointed down over two crew, swinging across to the pit man, then back to the tactician. I inserted a 90 rotation and some twixtor slow-mo in post to match the cam rotation.

That's what I like about this forum. There are people out there who have actually done the things some of us can only guess about.

Tery

The MAKOHEAD is a custom stabilizer for use on boats.

MAKOHEAD
www.makohead.com

Relative Thread
www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=28455

Hey Dennis,

Very cool. I only have dial up where I am today so, it took a while to download but, it was well worth it. Nice job.

If you are making some of your video shots on a tripod already, here is what I would recommend you try.

Use your sticks shortlegged. Raise the camera (extend the yoke of the tripod) about three or four inches and lock everything down. To make a shot from atop the coachroof spread the legs, make your shot. Now pick up the tripod at the yoke (right below the camera), push the legs together, and you have an instant stabilizer. Hold this setup away from your body with your arm bent at the elbow and allow your arm to absorb the vertical motion. The weight of the tripod below your hand will act the same way a keel does on the boat. That is, it will counterbalance the weight of the camera and help alleviate the roll of the boat. To do a "crane" shot like in the montage, just grab the end of the legs and hold the tripod/camera configuration up high and start moving.

As you may have noticed the smaller and lighter weight your rig under these conditions, the better. That statement is well backed up by the crew. You will seldom see large people on racing boats. The important thing is to stay small, nimble, and ready to move quickly.

Exercise caution when using your cam on any kind of mechanical rig. Many of us have lost more than one camera overboard during a tack or jybe. Tactitions and helmsmen are not above (accidentally) kicking your camera overboard if they think you are interfering with the performance of the crew.

A good place to shoot from to get the full action of the cockpit is from down the companionway. The shot angle is low, typically looking up into the faces of the crew and on wide angle will show most of the cockpit, tangle of lines, crew bracing themselves, swinging mainsheet on a tack, etc., and your mic is typically protected from the wind so the sound byte is usually great. You also are closer to the keel so, you will feel less motion of the boat, if you don't get seasick while below.

Mainly have fun. Cut a piece together for the crew. They will enjoy seeing themselves at work and, more than once I have had a skipper hire me for a day in the offseason so the crew can watch video of themselves to see how to better work together.

Oh yea, I am not familiar with the boat you are on but, I did Google it up to get a look at the deck plan. Pretty boat. But, with that fin keel it will never be a stable shooting platform. The deck area behind the helmsman is a good place to stay out of everyone's way. That is good fortune for you. Just watch out for the boom.

Robert

Thanks Robert. Actually I'm a regular member of the crew (and have been for three years). These days I'm the headsail trimmer. That little piece you looked at was part of the "2005 End of Nav" DVD I did up for the yacht club's end of season gala. It was projected up on the big screen for two hours during the symposium and dinner (muted). This year there was a lot of interest from other skippers after seeing the piece, so who knows, I may just do a few of these for hire next season.

I'm doing a more "IMX38-centric" edit for our annual crew party too. This will be edited for crew consumption only. I'm wrapping up my first year doing this video thing, so there was a 2004 version, but not quite as elaborate. The skipper and crew are completely enthusiastic and realize that if they don't suck up enough, I'm not necessarily nice in the edit :-) Winter is long here so the DVD's get a lot of play during the off season.

Knowing the drill is very important to not getting hurt, and the tactician/skipper are OK with me doing things like evading tacks by stepping around the forestay, when I'm in "scamper" mode. I have free reign of the boat limited only by my common sense. Agreed on the companion way tip. The only down side to that happened to me during the high wind start of the last race of the season. I was trapped below (the pit man stands in the companionway) and missed some serious tactical high jinx at the start. The good news is that I had the camera and Rode mic on so I got audio that I would never have planned on. The rigging groaning, winches spinning, guys yelling...it made a dramatic audio background for my intro titles.

I've ended up this year using my rig exactly as you described, taking advantage of the heavy legs to help stabilize the unit. Based on this thread, I really think I can do better though with a small stabilizer and a ton of practice for the boat to boat shots. I've seen some footage of high wind, heavy seas, maxi-yacht racing, seemingly taken from the water (very low angle), that was rock steady and I've been pondering ever since how they possibly did it.

I like your phrase "scamper mode". With your permission I will include that in my vocabulary. I agree that stuff shot on the maxis look different than the stuff we shoot. Several reasons, boats are twice the size, three times the weight, twelve foot keels, and eighteen foot beams. Much more stable platforms. Added beam and just overall size of the cockpit allow a lot more space to work and "steadicam" rigs certainly have been used. Many is the time I have seen some of that footage and was a bit envious. But, alas, I do not get invited to crew in maxi competitions very often (read that-never). NOOD maybe, maxis? naw. I am resigned to my fate in Galveston Bay and The Gulf of Mexico.

I realize I did not fully answer your previous question re: the rigs I have tried. My first underway shoot was with a shoulder mount hi-8 several years ago. What a nightmare. Camera too big, Boat too small, whatever, it was a nightmare. I was delighted when the handycams came out. That is heaven to me. I had to practice and find the best way to hold and use them, but I did. It doesn't always look "professional" but, heck I'm too old to care about that. My job is to get the shot, whatever it takes.

The rigs that I and several associates have tried over the years have been varied. I can't give you brand names. Some rigs were commercial and some were homemade. I do know of one guy that even mounted a helicopter mount (with gyros) to the trailing edge of the mast. I never saw the footage but he sure went to a lot of trouble. I had nightmares for weeks of the spinnaker pole going right through that thing on a tack hookup.

Most of the steady type rigs for small cameras have only been out two or three years. I gave up on trying to use them before that so, I do not have a lot of experience with them. That said, find some place you can borrow, or rent for a weekend to try them out before you buy. You could wind up with a closet full of them just to find out none of them do what you are trying to do on a 38' medium displacement boat.

Oh yea, I took a look at that Mako Head. Heck, it's only 50 pounds. Maybe the skipper would let you mount that to the end of the boom. That would be some cool shots.

Well, I'm not even going to try and guess what the Mako is worth.

Yea, but you know how these raceboat skippers are. They love to show off new equipment on their boats.

Found the clip. How'n the heck'd they do this? http://first317.janwil.nl/Mumm30.mpg Are the low angle shots heli shots?

The MAKOHEAD is a custom stabilizer for use on boats.

MAKOHEAD
www.makohead.com

Relative Thread
www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=28455

Hi James,

Do you know the exact price?

Just curious

TIA

Regards
Leigh

Leigh, I don't think you can buy the Mako system. I believe it is just for rentals only. It's like Panavision cameras, you can't buy them, you can only rent them. You could give them a call to see what the rates are.

Ok, here's a rather large (http://www.filefactory.com/get/f.php?f=4cc13e15bddd77990a07c570) (47MB) download, but it illustrates perfectly the issues on the sailboat. The footage is from a start sequence with plenty of tactical transitions, close calls etc. I've left in the shaky stuff. It's some of the crew party stuff so the music and edits are much more "aggressive".