Is anyone able to control this camera as a deck via firewire? We are unable to control the camera as a deck via Avid Xpress ProHD 5.20 software. Is it controllable via FCP or Vegas? We don't use those but are curious if anyone has control.

Also, we have the BR-HD50 companion deck ad are unable to get 1394 or RS/422 control of the deck from Avid.

Anyone using both of these with Avid software?

Thanks,

Sean McHenry

Hi Sean,

I am getting the deck next weekend and I will attempt to control it with RS422 from Avid (Mac, AXP 4.6). We will be able to compare notes at that point.

Hello Jiri,
our experience is, and sorry for telling you this, the deck is not able to be controlled via either 422 or 1394 from Avid. At least not for us.

Interestingly, I just tried deck control of the BR-HD50 deck and it seems to work fine with Vegas in 720p30 mode.

More later.

Sean

That's weird. Did you try to discuss this on the Avid forum? Any responses there?

Been in contact via the forums there as well as JVC. It's supposedly not on the supported devices Avid list but, they announced support so I am confused by the whole thing.

The Chief Engineer here just forwarded me this link on the same issues.
http://www.dmnforums.com/cgi-bin/displaywwugpost.fcgi?forum=avid_composer&post=050927155255.htm

It looks like I am going to have to learn how to edit in Vegas now.

Sean

Anyone from JVC care to respond?

I have the BR HD 50 and seems to work fine with the Avid 5,20 for capture. The project that i work with is 720p 30 frames. When exporting to HDV devise from the Avid connects also fine with the system but the final export to tape has many drops and is not possible to use it for a finished project.
I use it, for now, to double check the color correction problems, as no preview to monitor is allowed from the Avid.
Does anyone has a suggestion on this? I tried all the possibilities with tapes. During the exporting time the preview looks fine and when i play back the tape, in footage of 3min dur. i get in average 3-4 major drop outs, really really bad....

Are you using Mojo? I guess not, because you would have monitor out. What you are describing sounds like settings. Again, have you posted the issues at the Avid board? There are people there who will work you through settings to help you make things work.

http://www.avid.com/exchange/forums/42/ShowForum.aspx

Panos issue with drop outs sound much more like a hard drive issue to me. If you are using a single hard drive for your HDV footage, you are likely unable to get the video/audio off your hard drive fast enough for smooth video playback. I assume you have rendered this footage and you are still seeing dropout issues.

If hard drive speed and throughput are not the issues, I don't know what it could be. Every PC is different in what folks do to them and the software they add to them.

This is all OT by the way but check things like turn off your networking when attempting to output, kill anything that is running in the background you don't need to make the video.

I am interested in that Panos is able to control his deck in Xpress ProHD 5.20. Others are unable to do this.

Sean

Is anyone able to control this camera as a deck via firewire?

WHY do you want to control your deck? Capture and entire tape using Scene Detect (assuming Avid has it). Then delete what you don't want. If Avid doesn't have SD, it's far faster to log and delete from disk than it is shuttling tape.

And, far better for your video's safety!

You can't insert or assemble edit HDV -- only crash assemble -- so you don't need deck control for Export.

I suspect that since there's no need for deck control these days, Avid didn't bother. Usually, starting an HDV capture starts the deck playing.

You HAVE to be able to control your decks. One example is going offline-online. Recapturing footage that was deleted, etc. Steve, how do you export to tape with specific TC start point without controlling the deck?

To add another point, Avid Express Pro systems are very much marketed as offline and/or digitizing systems for their bigger brothers Media Composer, Symphony and Nitris systems, and therefore, the need for accurate TC is very much in the forefront and will be for some years to come. Not everyone will go to P2 card-type of a system rightaway. Also, there are those who go back to film and that cannot be done without TC of some kind.

[QUOTE=Jiri Bakala]Steve, how do you export to tape with specific TC start point without controlling the deck?

Why do you care where video starts on a tape? Place a blank tape in the deck and export. Done.

TC was needed in the "old days" when you wanted to add material to tape at a specific point. You CAN NOT add MPEG-2 to another segment of MPEG-2. Since you can't do it, what's TC going to be used for?

TC was also used to INSERT material in a segment of video:

1) You can NOT do this with MPEG-2.

2) You can NOT do this with a FEEDER deck, which this clearly is. (Nor with any feeder DV deck.)

"Recapturing footage that was deleted, etc."

Now why would you delete material? With Terabytes of storage so cheap, and 720p24 using so little space, it's silly to "save space" by deleting anything you MIGHT use.

Use RAID 1 and you can't lose your source by a disk crash.

IMHO folks need to stop thinking like HDV is Beta SP. It's not. It's not Telecined film either.

Video is a file of data. You can't put two Word documents together by dropping one on another. You must open both and copy and paste one onto the other and then Save. Same with MPEG-2.

You don't print a document so you can later re-scan it. You back it up.

"Also, there are those who go back to film and that cannot be done without TC of some kind."

Hollywood is going to DI -- the output from the computer goes to directly to film. You don't need to "go back to film" as it's an insane waste of time and money. Simply send the Timeline Frames on a FireWire disk to ANY film lab. They'll get you the film you need.

I'd much rather Avid focused on the future -- like 24p -- than try to replicate the past by worrying about 422 deck control to make HDV seems like SP. By this time next year, who will even have tape to put into a deck? :)

Why do you care where video starts on a tape? Place a blank tape in the deck and export. Done.



You don't truly mean that, do you?

Why do you care where video starts on a tape? Place a blank tape in the deck and export. Done.
One word: broadcast

You can NOT do this with a FEEDER deck, which this clearly is. (Nor with any feeder DV deck.)
Actually, we do it with DV decks all the time.

Now why would you delete material? With Terabytes of storage so cheap, and 720p24 using so little space, it's silly to "save space" by deleting anything you MIGHT use.
Offline-online. It's not 'saving' space by deleting, if anything it's saving space by not capturing everything full rez. I.e.: I am editing a Discovery series, currently I have three one-hour films on my system, each on average compiled out of some 30+ hrs of original footage. Storage is cheap but there is no reason to capture everything uncompressed, particularily, since I am only OFFLINING. Avid XP is not (in this case) the producer's choice for onlining, since they are doing colour correction and some effects in Media Composer. Hence, the footage will have to be redigitized into their system.

Also, these days when people shoot HD but deliver in SD, very often the broadcaster wants to flexibility to conform to HD later. Therefore they need an EDL/project file/time code.[/QUOTE]

I'd much rather Avid focused on the future -- like 24p -- than try to replicate the past by worrying about 422 deck control to make HDV seems like SP.
They are focusing on 24p, we are continuously being told...

[QUOTE=Jiri Bakala]"One word: broadcast"

You are not going to send an HDV tape off for broadcast! You are going to use HDCAM or DVCPRO HD. So it's a total non-issue with an HDV deck.


"Actually, we do it with DV decks all the time."

No you do not! An INSERT edit can only be performed on a DVCAM EDIT deck unless you want to risk a glitch at the out-point. You're talking about an ASSEMBLE edit which not an INSERT edit. These can be peformed on a DVCAM FEEDER deck.

In any case -- NEITHER can be done with MPEG-2 on ANY deck in the world. There is no such deck made -- so why are you claiming something that doesn't exist should be supported by Avid?


"If anything it's saving space by not capturing everything full rez."

1) HDV is full rez and it takes only 9GB PER HOUR.

2) You can delete what you don't want. Simply delete after you capture a tape. You only need 10GB of free tape for one whole hour. Even if you needed to capture 30 tapes, I can buy a disk for $100 that will hold that much HDV. There is simply no need to "save space" with HDV. Spend $500 and you can edit 5 programs.

"Storage is cheap but there is no reason to capture everything uncompressed, particularily, since I am only OFFLINING."

If you are capturing via FireWire -- which the person was trying to do -- then you are capturing HDV. HDV is not uncompressed. Why are you bringing uncompressed into a FireWire capture issue?

"Also, these days when people shoot HD but deliver in SD, very often the broadcaster wants to flexibility to conform to HD later. Therefore they need an EDL/project file/time code."

You edit in HDV and then make an SD version, not the other way around.

I'm not saying you don't do what you do, but that's not what this person was trying to do. Nor, frankly, what most HDV editors would do.

I have been able to capture from the BRHD50 using both firewire and RS-422 control. RS-422 seems much more responsive. I don't use Avid, so I don't know the implementation of the control protocol they have.

I was successful with both Media 100 via a stealth serial adaptor using Pipeline Digital Mediadeck and the included Diaquest protocol. Both are using Sony RS-422. One nice feature of Media 100 is the P6000's proc amp that saves settings for each clip and will capture every logged clip with a specific proc amp setup. I really miss that with the FCPro system.

I also had no problems at all using Kona's Sony RS-422 via a Aja breakout box and Final Cut.

I like being able to control the deck from the editing interface, name each clip/reel/take with data & notes and not capture all the extra material or bad takes that are not needed. Serial control on capture is really something we want.

Our experience with the deck while in remote batch capture, on the other hand, has been less than satisfactory. Two different HD50's malfunctioned while capturing via remote. They ended up in some strange error mode and had to be reset to factory default. The symptoms included switching into PAL mode (we are in NTSC) and also outputing bars on the S-Video...I'd like to hear if anyone else experiences this using batch capturing from the HD50.



Dave

Steve, the issue at hand is the machine control of the deck via either RS422 or firewire. The rest of the discussion is another story.

If a program (or a part of it) is shot in HDV there might be several reasons why to capture analogue video at low rez using RS422. We may disagree about why, but that's irrelevant. My current workflow (which wasn't my design, BTW) requires that. A mixing of formats might require that... as I said there are several reasons. When I deliver my rough cuts to the broadcaster for comments they require a burned-in TC. Yes, you may say use an effect instead of the deck superimpose. Sure, it is possible but not always practical (render times, etc.). My timeline has to work for the ONLINE timeline. Ah, you missed my point about the offline-online workflow. Many editors do offline on AXP, while online is done at a higer end facility by others (colour correction, effects, etc). The bottom line is TC is needed and will be for some forseeable future and so is the ability to machine control decks.

As for the storage issue, again, if you are OFFLINING a program that has various formats (HDCAM, XDCAM, HDV, etc.) you may not have the ability to ingest all those into your system. I sure don't. How would I get in uncompressed HDCAM? That doesn't preclude me from editing the material, as long as I can deal with TC and machine controlled decks.

And yes, when I do a whole project in DVCAM/DV, I wouldn't bother offlining it, of course.

And as for my claim of doing insert edit, yes, we do, all the time. We use Sony DSR-11 and other DVCAM decks. I used DV without thinking about the details because the format is practically the same as DVCAM in many respects. My apologies for not being completely clear.

And one more last point; the deck plays back DVCAM and DV formats, as well, so there would likely be the need to have TC for those, even when digesting through FireWire (again, as a part of a project or general flexibility of being able to follow various workflows).

For jim Bakala: Jim you cannot preview HDV through the mojo. Seems like if you edit with the Avid 5,20 HDV footage you cannot preview to monitor, only on desktop.
For Sean Mc Henry: Sean I use 2 hard drives SATA, one for the system where i export the m2t streams and one for capture, edit and rendering. What do you think that I should do? I have to present the project on the 18th, after tomorrow, then I will have two weeks to deliver the final copies in Pro HD tape to be projected through a projector via a BRHD50 spooler.
My problem will start after the 18th, as the final product has to be drop outs free!
In general the workflow of HDV looks terrible. Gives the impression that any minute the whole thing is going to collapse. The Avid is full of fatal errors!
But the image is ...Good when previewed on the TV Logic monitor.
I am thinking of buying a canopus card and recapture several times each sequence, so i will be able to through out the drop outs. Any suggestions please... I am a film person (I'm almost 50years old), new to the digital world, now in big sh...!

1). For Jim (and Panos) look in the forums and the Avid Knowledge Base. You can view the HDV material via the Mojo on standard monitors. At least we can here in the states with NTSC.

I think you have to start with Mojo connected, fire up the Avid software, start a project in HD (1080i) mode (check me on that in the knowledge base lookup you are about to do) and there is a drop down box to use Mojo as an output device.

You will get 16:9 SD output from the Mojo but at least you can monitor it.

2). Panos. If you are going to continue working with HDV, you might want to look into SATA drives. Perhaps even 2 set up as a RAID array. I know the data rate for HDV is lower than DV but there is somethig about MPEG2 or m2t streams that seems to want a lot of drive backing it up. Needs faster throughput than one might think. I may be wrong on that and maybe it's RAM or pure horsepower but I can tell you my HP 3.4GHz laptop can't keep up and it has a 100GB drive (at 5400RPM - maybe the issue for me) and only 768MB of DDR 333 RAM (this could be my issue too)

You might try making sure you have only media on the media drive(s). relocate any programs or stored files to your main HD or move them somewhere else. Next I would format the media drive(s) and make sure they are NTFS file format, not a FAT32 system.

That's all I can offer. I hoe it helps.

3). Steve. First, OMG. Second, what if you are asked to recut that 45 minute doc you cut last year? You gong to rebuild the entire project from scratch? Recapture the master and try to fix it that way? What if you loose a drive and the media. Gosh, sure would be nice to be able to batch capture from the EDL wouldn't it? Not gonna happen without time code.

And third, it's suppsed to work from the software we spent a lot of money on. We shouldn't have to get yet another application to capture footage when we have a capture tool in the software we have, with - deck control.

Sean

"Steve, the issue at hand is the machine control of the deck via either RS422 or firewire. If a program (or a part of it) is shot in HDV there might be several reasons why to capture analogue video at low rez using RS422."

You keep moving the topic to what you might want to do or need to do. As you say "My current workflow..."

They guy SEEMS to want to capture HDV via FireWire!

He wants to know why he doesn't SEEM to have FireWire deck control. I am suggesting that he does not need manual VTR control. For example, when FCP captures using AIC there is no MANUAL VTR control. Yet, once the capture by software is started -- the VTR is being controlled via FireWire.

He may also feel he needs control for HDV Export. There is no need for VTR manual control during HDV export. You position the tape ABOUT where you want the data file to be written. Request export and, at the right time, the deck begins recording. And, stops at the end. Clearly, thesoftware has 1394 control.

You seem unable to grasp that the very nature of MPEG-2 makes it impossible to do either an Assemble or Insert edit. If you try recording where there is MPEG-2 you will get a huge glitch. Since you can't do either operation -- there is no point in trying to manually control and set TC points.

---------------------------

Lastly, look at your DSR-11 manual -- and all manuals on DV products -- and you will see Sony clearly points out that if you INSERT a segment of DV/DVCAM "within" a longer segment of DV/DVCAM -- you MAY get a glitch at the out-point. That is why they sell the DSR-45 etc. which are a class called EDITING VTRs whereas a DSR-11 is a FEEDER VTR. I suspect you are not doing INSERT edits but ASSEMBLE edits -- which can, of course, be done.

----------------------------

And one more last point; the deck plays back DVCAM and DV formats, as well, so there would likely be the need to have TC for those, even when digesting through FireWire.

The problem is this guy didn't say he was trying to work in DV!

He may not realize he has to switch the the camcorder/deck. So where do you suddenly come up with the asertion that the camcorder/VTR don't have 1394 and TC when working with DV?

In fact, he wondered if anyone had 1394 VTR control -- which makes me think he may not know how to use either the equipment nor Avid HD. So this whole thread may have no basis in the person's problem and has gone off on topics that are not relevant to his problem. That is simply not being helpful.

I have the BR HD 50 and seems to work fine with the Avid 5,20 for capture. The project that i work with is 720p 30 frames. When exporting to HDV devise from the Avid connects also fine with the system but the final export to tape has many drops and is not possible to use it for a finished project.
I use it, for now, to double check the color correction problems, as no preview to monitor is allowed from the Avid.
Does anyone has a suggestion on this? I tried all the possibilities with tapes. During the exporting time the preview looks fine and when i play back the tape, in footage of 3min dur. i get in average 3-4 major drop outs, really really bad....

So here we have confirmation that Avid does work with HDV on Capture and Export. So that answers Sean's question. He's doing something wrong.

Now we have a new problem. Panos, I suspect your machine does not meet Avid's HDV specs in every way.

In general the workflow of HDV looks terrible. Gives the impression that any minute the whole thing is going to collapse. The Avid is full of fatal errors!

Since one can edit 1080i on an iBook with iMovie HD -- I'm just having a hard time believing Avid has released a product that can't edit 720p30 without the problems you describe.

Something is wrong with your system and I would look there before I looked for another NLE. And, the need for a second drive is VERY UNLIKELY to be an Avid requirement. That concept hasn't been valid for a decade.

You've been given several good suggestions on what else might be wrong.

Good heavens we make a lot of noise here. OK, let me re-state the issue so everyone is clear on all this. Since I started this, I will be the one to say what I mean to say and ask. Here goes.

It is advertised by Avid that they are supporting the HD100 camera. I would assume that when someone says they support a device, that means they are claiming that all aspects of that device are in complete agreement with their device(s). Otherwise, they really aren't supporting it. They have partial support and should state this up front in big BOLD lettering. As this was not the case, a lot of us bought into the idea that Avid was working with this camera.

As for the BR-HD50 deck. There is a preset for deck control in the Avid Xpress ProHD software. As the deck control preset would have absolutly no purpose other than to control the deck via either 1394 or RS/422, it's a quite logical assumption that it would actually do what it is supposed to do, the very reason it is included. It does not work for everyone I have personally contacted through various forums.

Hence my question, does anyone have control of this deck that is using any Avid products. I didn't differentiate DV from HDV intentionally as I want to find out if folks can control any aspect of this deck in any format. In fact, the format on the tape should have no bearing on whether deck control functions or not really. Are you not able to start, stop, pause, play, ff or rew based on the tape in the deck, from the front panel controls? That would be a silly thing to assert or assume.

In my book, the control functions are simply an extension of the front panel controls with the addition of TC traveling on that signal.

Yes, most of us want/need TC and will for a long long time. I am aware that there is no true assemble or insert with MPEG as it is GOP based. I am aware of I,P and B frames and that the file format of the stream is m2t. I get all that and it really has nothing to do with the question I asked so, I suppose I will ask once again and perhaps we won't muddy the water with why I want TC, let's just say I do and leave it at that.

Q: Is anyone able to control the JVC HD100 camera via 1394 or the BR-HD50 deck via either 1394 or RS/422 from an Avid system?

Seems like a simple question really.

Sean Mchenry

The main problem is probably the 24 frame based TC. Most deck presets will be setup for 30 fps TC DF or NDF, so anything other than that and they won't understand it.

I would try modifying an existing preset in deck preferences for 24 based timecode.

Now there is a useful idea. Thanks Tim. I'll look into that. I have never checked into deck control presets. If they are just txt or ASCII files I suppose I could modify it.

TC is still a side issue but the folks here are going to want it. I suppose there are really still a lot of reasons for TC in any format. Makes pre-production lot's easier if we know where things are, redigitizing is a whole lot easier and batch capture, etc. Besides, whether everyone likes it or not, that's the professional way to do it.

Thanks Tim,

Sean

Now there is a useful idea. Thanks Tim. I'll look into that. I have never checked into deck control presets. If they are just txt or ASCII files I suppose I could modify it.

You should be able to open deck preferences and modify any setting. You have to do this if switching from a NTSC to PAL deck anyway. You should be able use a generic machine template and then select a frame rate.
Of course, in my 10+ years of experience cutting on Avids, I've never used one of their Xpress DV products - only Media COmposer or Symphony, so the preferences may not work the same way.

Another option if the 60fps is not available is to use 'free run' as you TC instead of transferring what's on the tape or you could use TOD instead. I realize this doesn't help if you've done a manual EDL but if you haven't manually written your shot lists' TC then TOD or Free run are options for you.

good luck amigo....

Once again, I am not the only person having this issue with a clean new Avid install and a qualified set of hardware. I am willing to give that we may indeed have something up with our system but here's one more thing, neither Avid nor JVC have offered any assistance with the issue for those of us with problems yet. Sort of makes me wonder why only one or two people would not have this issue. The majority of us are having this issue.

I would further ask Panos to contact me off the list so we can compare notes to be sure we are both trying the same things. He never actually mentions trying to control the deck via 422 or firewire directly. If he is simply hitting "play" on the front panel and putting the Avid into capture mode, that's not at all what I am trying to do.

Direct question for Panos - have you actually been able to put the deck into play, rew, ff, pause, stop from the Avid deck control panel? We can get one or two mouse clicks which can put the deck into play but then it will fail with an error. I just want to make sure we are both speaking about the same thing here.

Last, Tim, I was unable to select any standard deck presets, including the generic version and get any results. I was thinking of playing around with the presets files to see if there was something in the underlying file itself that looked a bit odd. May still do that later.

Giving the blanket statement that my system is patently broken doesn't quite get it.

Sean

In fact, the format on the tape should have no bearing on whether deck control functions or not really.

iT MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE!

There are two device protocols. That's why you must switch your deck/camcorder to the correct media AND choose the correct Device Control Preset.

I concur with what Steve said. I work on a Liquid system. In Liquid you MUST select the standard by which the sytem is setup (HDV1 or HDV2). HDV2 is the default and the JVC will not work with HDV2 as the default. Pinnacle has written a white paper about how to make the switch. I've heard that you must make the format change in Vegas as well.

Maybe Xpress is the same?

Click for PDF (http://www.pinnaclesys.com/WebVideo/liquideditionproversion6/English(US)/doc/WP_PLE_HDV_US_27Jun05.pdf) The last pages show requirements for JVC HDV connections to Windows XP. It may help amigo..

Direct question for Panos - have you actually been able to put the deck into play, rew, ff, pause, stop from the Avid deck control panel? We can get one or two mouse clicks which can put the deck into play but then it will fail with an error.
Sean

Now we have some information!

This behavior I've seen when the DV Control Preset is used. It seems that there is enough similarity that some DV devices codes will, for example, start PLAY but then the data coming back is not correct.

So I suspect, you either are not using the correct Device Preset or you do not have the Menus set correctly and the HDV/DV switch set correctly. So instead of saying Avid doesn't support ...

Tell us what you are trying to do (HDV or DV) and what your settings are.

Man this is getting painful. All your suspisions about how I am doing things and what presets I am or am not using have so far been incorrect. We have used - as I have said in all my discussions on this matter - all the deck presets and all Avid presets. We have used the recommended settings by Avid and by JVC. Let's not forget I have been in contact with JVC technical people on this and with everyones suggestions, including the people that make this stuff, nothing is working for us, and a lot of other people.

We have started with SD projects and attempted to import HDV footage by both 1394 and 422. We have started with 720p HDV projects and been unable to make it work. We have started with 1080i HD projects and been unable to make it work.

Believe me when I say we have exhaustivly tested every input method, deck preset menu and every Avid (well honestly only most) deck control presets. We are using HDV, not DV settings. We have attempted to gain control on DV mode with DV and DVCam tapes and still no control.

Stephen, thanks for the info on the change. I am unaware of this on Avid. It is supposed to be either SD, HDV or HD and that's all I know. This may indeed be part of the issue but so far no word from Avid on this one. Still waiting.

Sean McHenry

Sean,

You should just try the new version of HDVxDV and see if it gets you going until Avid works out their problems.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=383417#post383417

Man this is getting painful.

Since you claim you are doing everything right -- then there is not much anyone can do to help you.

Panos says he's working with HDV and I subscribe to the Avid list and I've not seen one complaint.

Can you capture 720p30 HDV by ANY method and edit it?

Because if you can't -- that's simply too big an error for Avid to have missed.

If you can capture and edit -- then Avid does support HDV, but not in the way you wish it did.

It could also be a faulty deck. I am getting mine on Monday but since I am on a Mac, my Avid is not HDV/HD compatible (yet). However, one of the first things I will test is its RS-422 machine control. We can compare notes at that point. Otherwise, I have no other problems with my system, have been controlling DVCAM decks, XDCAM decks and HDV Sony deck without any issues.

Okay, did some more searching and it appears that Avid simply needs to update their deck templates. From what I read, the deck is okay and works fine with Sony Vegas but doesn't work with Avid MC or XP HD. Let's hope that Avid will address this with their next update.

Here is more reading:
http://www.dmnforums.com/cgi-bin/displaywwugpost.fcgi?forum=avid_composer&post=050927155255.htm

I can control the deck via RS-422 on OS 9 via Media 100 7.5 using a Stealth serial adpator. That's at least 4 or 5 year old technology. I would assume that means it works with standard machine control protocol. As far as timecode, I'm not so sure. I've been using 29.97 SMPTE and never considered there's a 60 or 24 frame base code for the HD100.

I did check firewire control in FCPro 5.0.3 and that works too.

I haven't done testing with burn in to check offset on captured clips but otherwise, everything works fine. I would think Avid should work, just as it does for any other RS-422 deck.

Dave B

It's looking like an Avid issue more and more. If I use Vegas, I have control of the deck but TC is off a few frames when I pause the deck. This is via 1394 by the way. I think the TC issue there is that, and this is an actual assumption on my part and may be totally off base but, if the deck is showing the last TC at an I frame and the Vegas software is interpolating the frames between the I frames, that could well explain the different readings when in pause mode. As the deck would stop at random places, it make sense.

On the other hand, I think the Avid software is to blame for the issue here. I can gain control of the deck at least via 1394 from Vegas but not from Avid.

I do actually have a thread on the Avid forum on this and there is another listing at another popular forum but I forgot to mail myself the link at home. I can post them both tomorrow if anyone is interested.

For now, I will put it on Avids shoulders and see what they can come up with. The deck is apparently not broken. I have no serial ports on the laptop to test 422 control.

I will report anything Avid tells me on the issue.

Thanks everyone for checking this issue with me. I'm betting as the deck ships more, we may see this issue. I smell Avid Xpress ProHD ver. 5.2.1 in the near future.

Sean McHenry

Sean,

Just out of curiosity... can you stick a miniDV or DVCAM formatted tape inthe deck and control/digitize?

Nope. Tried DVCam with the DS the other day via 422 and all the various deck and Avid presets. No-go. Odd isn't it.

Nope. Tried DVCam with the DS the other day via 422 and all the various deck and Avid presets. No-go. Odd isn't it.
So it is more than just a format issue (or 60fps timebase problem.)

And no luck using a generic deck template with a DV tape?

Sean,

I've been reading the manual for the BR-50 and I have an idea to try.

So assuming you want to use the RS-422 remote controller...
In REMOTE menu screen, set CONTROLLER SELECT to TYPE 7

If that doesn't work, try some of the other types. Obviously remote 9P will need to be selected on the remote switch.

Page 75 of the manual.

Again, did that. That's what I meant when I said I have tried all the deck presets as well as the Avid presets.

Really odd thing here - seems preset 5, which is not an Avid preset, holds control a bit longer but still fails after about 30 seconds or less. Some presets fail imediatly.

My guess is that the presets that work the longest are not polling the deck as often so they don't get bad information for a while and keep going. As soon as they poll the deck for information, that's when it fails. If the preset says check the status every 30 seconds, I can see how we would get a good 30 seconds out of it. The other presets may be polling much more often. Maybe even every frame. Purely a guess.


Bzzzzzzzt. Thanks for playing the home game.

Sean McHenry

Sean,

I beg your pardon, but are you working on XP or Mac?

Hi Sean, i answer to your question. Yes i can control the deck from the capture page of the Avis with alot of I/O problems. To tell you the truth i capture relatively easy my material that was 40 tapes. While i capture i can preview it to the TV Logic monitor. I shot in 30p and i think that the Avid does not support yet 24p. When the problem occurs i have to leave the aplication and restart the computer. Then the deck is immediately recognized. Sometimes i forget to turn on the remote, then everything hangs. I will be out for two days then i will take a look at the settings and let you know. Is 5 in the morning and i still export to HDV devise hoping not to get drop outs. I will try with the HD and hopefully everything will be fixed, ..i doubt it...!

Panos is correct -- no capture of 24p is possible. Like using HDV in FCP.

I'm sure he is using FW. Wish we knew his I/O errors, but it certainly confirms the Avid can capture and edit HDV.

I still suspect, given his output problems, that his machine may not be Kosher.

And both are using PC since there is no Mac version till next summer.

Capturing and editng, we can do that. Once again, the issue is deck control and TC by extension.

We were able to capture the first day we had the gear. We are looking for deck control and TC so we can batch digitize a major PBS program using 2 of the JVC cameras as secondary shots for Varicam primary shots.

Without TC and control, this is a major problem for us. I can't say exactly but it sounds to me like Panos can capture on the fly but is having issues keeping it running, like us, when attempting to use control, hence his mentioning the errors and having to restart his PC.

Stephen, Certified Avid hardware. XP Pro, SP2.

Panos, I look forward to hearing more. I know 24p will not work. Very disapointed about that. We all want to have 24p. Looks really nice.

Thanks all,

Sean McHenry

I copied the tape with the drop outs and the representative of JVC in Jakarta will send it to Japan to let us know why this is happening. I bought the computer that is a HP 3,2 Xeon 2 gb ram with the avid from avid Jakarta.
They cannot understand where the problem is. I will try to export it using the Pro HD tapes because i think that might come from the spooler-tape. Any way the camera, if used with normal tapes, creates many drop outs, so why not the spooler...
I also visited canopus and the edius for HDV does not support, equally to the Avid Xpress Pro HD 5,20, 24 fr, does not support 25 fr either. For you guys in the US supports the U models appart from 24fr
I think that we have to wait and see when the editing systems will give full support to the camera. It is useless to invest now in half solutions unless you are in an emergency situation as i am.
The movie that we have done is supposed to be projected with a JVC spooler and an HD projector. Does anyone has any ideas? How could we get the tape out product as good as possible?

Panos,
The only method we could find that seems to work for us is to play out of the camera to another more universial (re. Sony) HD deck. Then ingest the footage from the HD deck with TC and accurate 422 control. An expensive proposition and especially painful if you are in a remote part of the world.

Sorry for the difficulties. I hope we all find a path through this jungle one day.

Sean McHenry

Sean,

Ignoring the TC issues and control issues because they are non-issues for many:

1) Do you have to manually start the camcorder playing or does Xpress Pro HD start the deck playing via 1394?


2) When you capture 720p30 via 1394 -- does Scene Detect operate during capture?


3) When you capture 720p30 via 1394 -- is the Scene Detect a function you apply after capture to a clip?


4) Can you transcode to DNxHD during capture?


5a) IF YES -- DURING CAPTURE: Can Scene Detect be performed during Capture WITH Conversion?

5b) IF NO -- POST CAPTURE: Assuming Scene Detect is a post capture function -- does the Transcode function work with with a Bin of clips or multiple Bin of clips? (i.e., is it a Batch process?)


6) During a 1394 export back to an HDV camcorder, do you have to start the Recording manually, or does the export function start the record via 1394?

Thank you,

The thread is about TC and control issues. I don't think I would be so cavalier about dismissing these points as they are more than just a wish list for professional post houses, they are a must.

Scene detection does not work on HDV in Avid from everything I have heard. It does not work for us.

For the few seconds I may actually have deck control I can start, stop pause or play from the deck control panel in Xpress ProHD 5.20. I never have enough time in one shot to try more than 1 or 2 buttons before it errors out.

Sean