View Full Version : Deck control and time code issues
Steve Mullen November 21st, 2005, 10:51 PM The thread is about TC and control issues. I don't think I would be so cavalier about dismissing these points as they are more than just a wish list for professional post houses, they are a must.
They are not necessary! Scene Detection replaces logging and provides a Bin full of clips. Preview and toss out the ones you don't need. You only need 10GB of free space to capture and hour! Edit your clips and record to HDV tape -- or make an NTSC DVD. Your done!
Frankly, since Scene Detect I haven't logged and since I've never had a disk crash from the days of the Amiga -- I don't worry about crashes. And, few need EDLs because they finish online. Offline is simply not needed for editing HDV as you have full CC.
I'm not saying YOU don't need it, and others don't need it, but you are in the minority amoung HDV and DV users. Ask yourself how the first generation of HDV camcorders could have been used when they didn't even record TC! Yet they were!
In fact, although it seems clear deck control is not working -- it is not clear that if you capture via 1394 that TC is not captured. I don't remember if you said you were able to perform a capture of HDV. With iMovie HD and FCE HD you don't even go to a log/capture window for HDV. You go to a separate function that simply starts the deck and captures a tape. Can you do that with your Avid?
If you can do that -- then many folks can use the the Avid for HDV editing.
The bigger issue is if the HDV recording is broken.
Jiri Bakala November 21st, 2005, 11:07 PM They are not necessary! Scene Detection replaces logging and provides a Bin full of clips. Preview and toss out the ones you don't need.
Depends who you are talking about and what product. DV and HDV is widely used as main or secondary format on broadcast productions and most networks request as one of their deliverables some sort of EDL or project file. Most will never look at it again but they want it in case that there is a need to recut, conform, use exerpts for another program, etc. TC and deck control are a must for most people working on these kinds of shows. Even non-linear acquisition/recording (XDCAM, P2) uses TC and will use it for a long time.
I know what you are saying about a lot of DV/HDV production that goes directly from acquisition to final master skipping any kind of offline/online. Just like most people here I do it on certain projects too. But that's not the point and neither is the fact that hard drives don't crash as much as they used to. The point is that for a large segment of this market TC and deck control are important and necessary.
BTW, Avid is coming (on the Mac side) with an update in December and they may address some of these issues (there is also a Mojo firmware update included). Keep fingers crossed.
Steve Mullen November 21st, 2005, 11:14 PM I found tis post on the Avid wbsite:
I've batch captured HDV footage from an M10 - deck config as FW via OHCI. Mojo had to be turned off, not just out of the loop to stop it conflicting with the FW connection off the deck.
If batch capture works, then HDV TC is supported by Avid.
However, someone else pointed out: I can't get an HDV batch capture operation to work with 5.2 and the HVR-M10U. Has anyone successfully done this?
Someone else responded: had the same problems. Somehow the machinetamplate does not work properly. I changed the device to Sony 1800 DV-Cam machine with firewire and it worked suddenly...
Which makes sense if JVC emulates a traditional Sony deck.
Jiri Bakala November 21st, 2005, 11:49 PM Actually, we've been using the Sony HVR-M10U deck since June and it works WITH Mojo through FW. We have used various Avid templates and it works with just about any (ours were DSR-11, DSR-45, generic and others).
However, as the deck doesn't have RS-422, the TC gets sometimes unstable and (I suspect) it is because of the long GOP. When the footage is batch captured for an online session, some clips are off by as little as 2-3 frames but also as much as 11 frames and need to be manually adjusted. So it's necessary to capture with 'handles'. Also, Avid sometimes behaves as if there was a TC break, while we know that at that very spot there is none, and the capture needs to be re-set. Not too bad, out of say 10 60-minute tapes it may happen 5-6 times. Still annoying.
BTW, the systems are Mac-based, AXP 4.6 with Mojo and MC.
Sean McHenry November 22nd, 2005, 02:04 AM OK, last time I'll say this part then I am giving up on the thread. We are a professional post house. We do such silly things as multi camera shoots, logging, media management and other things some guys, including my little side operations don't need. Like those I just mentioned.
When I am at home working with only a few tapes and I know the material, no big deal, I can go with out TC as I know the good takes from the bad, I probably shot them.
In the professional world... we will be attempting to sync cameras based on the gen locked TC in all 4 decks/cameras. If I don't have TC, and I am shooting 8 episodes of a 1 hour broadcast HD program, how the heck am I going to get all those shots lined up and be efficient in my editing with out a way to match them all up? You think I am going to blindly capture 2 cameras out of 4 without TC and try to line them up by clapper board or by site or audio cues? Not a chance. The clapper board would have to be in view of all cameras each take to be effective and that isn't going to happen as 2 of them are locked down, one in the ceiling, and so on. See the issues here?
If TC was dead, pro cameras wouldn't bother with Gen locked TC, but it's there. Even the new Canon will have it.
For Jiri,
It seems to be a non-issue with the Sony decks. This is about the JVC gear not working. I am glad it is working with some devices as the JVC deck, for those of us that need outdated technology, like accurate TC, is not going to cut it in it's present form.
For Steve, once again, the topic of the thread is TC and deck control on the JVC hardware. I am glad it's working for the guy in the Avid post. I've been there too, but as you can see, that deck is a Sony, not a JVC. The JVC is supposed to emulate 7 different types of RS/422 and 1394 deck control. None of them are working for us and I have never heard of them working for anyone else either. Not in the configuration I continously mention.
The camera, the JVC HD100 can be used over 1394. We don't want to put a camera in every Avid suite to use as a feeder deck. We bought one deck, a JVC BR-HD50 as a test deck for the tape room, remotely located too far away to use 1394. That's OK because 1394 control doesn't work either even if I am only 4 feet from the PC. We must use RS/422, as the deck says it can, WITH TC.
Am I not making sense here folks? It really was a simple question. Is the BR-HD50 deck working for anyone with an Avid Xpress ProHD 5.20 system via either RS422 or 1394 for deck control and TC captures?
I don't want to hear how it works with other brands or other applications. I just want to know if this works, as I described, for anyone. If it does, reliably, not most of the time, then I would like to compare notes with that person.
Sean
Sean McHenry
Steve Mullen November 22nd, 2005, 04:07 AM Your problem is you never described your situation and sent everyone down differnt paths. All you said was:
"Is anyone able to control this camera as a deck via firewire? We are unable to control the camera as a deck via Avid Xpress ProHD 5.20 software."
The answer to the question you asked was YES. And since Batch is suported so must TC.
You further asked:" Is it controllable via FCP or Vegas?"
Again the answer is YES!
Then you asked: "We have the BR-HD50 companion deck and are unable to get 1394 or RS/422 control of the deck from Avid. Anyone using both of these with Avid software?"
Again, you asked about 1394 where the answer is YES. Now we learn you only really have the option to use RS422.
So, since you must work via remote, you should have asked about REMOTE analog component capture via Kona or DeckLink with RS-422 control!
If you want help in the future, please ask the question you REALLY want answered. And, I think the answer is NO so you have two options: Give up or try FireWire Control which we know does support TC. Or, wait for Avid to provide a fix.
PS: Those that have reported a control problem -- report trying Sony presets. Of course, you have tried all these, right?
Jiri Bakala November 22nd, 2005, 09:02 AM Don't give up, Shawn. I have the deck and I am very much on an Avid and I will be able to test it in a few days. I understand your frustrations, though.... been there too.
I also posted the question of RS422 control of the deck to Marianna on Avid discussion board. I'll let you (and others) know when I get a response,
Panos Bournias November 22nd, 2005, 09:32 AM Now again, the BR HD 50 works with the Avid. It worked before with a lot of problems, for TC capture also controling the deck from the avid capture4 window. Now i found a setting at the remote screen menu- controller SEL and i set it at "type 7" which is configured for Avid Express. At the VIDEO SCREEN as well - OUT FORMAT the deck must be set at 720p, not native, and the MONITOR SELECT at OUT FRMT. Now it works fine, no problems up to now.
I tried capture with the cineform in adobe 1.5 today for some footage that i shot in 24 frames and it was a disaster.
We are supposed to use the 60 frames setting as 24 frames is in the category of 30 - 60 frames.
Everything was blocked. I managed to capture half a clip and the rest failed. At the end the spooler stop reading the time code of the tape and blocked. This 24 frame clip (the small part captured) was exported from adobe as HDV avi and imported to my project in Avid HDV 720p 30 frames. No problem. Plays correctly in the timeline, i cannot see on the descktop the quality loss.
Conclusion: The BRHD50 works with the Avid 5,20 for capture, records time code (Non drop) - can be controled from the capture remote of the Avid for play - stop - write - ffw - rw - pause. I think that we can configure more actions, as search etc., but we have to go carefully through the setting of the JVC spooler and the Avid capture. The document that follows the Avid upgrade has some interesting info as well.
Panos
Steve Mullen November 22nd, 2005, 11:37 AM I tried capture with the cineform in adobe 1.5 today for some footage that i shot in 24 frames and it was a disaster.
Are you using the free HDV-plug-in from Adobe? If you are it does NOT support 24p.
I have used the lastest version of AspectHD with 24p and it worked perfectly with 24p!
If you need 24p HDV -- contact Thad or David at CineForm as the beta of the next version will record 24p HDV back to the camera. It is the only complete solution I know of. And editing will be much faster than Avid.
QUESTION: Have you tried transcoding HDV to DNxHD?
Do you know if you can transcode during capture or must you transcode the HDV clip after it has been captured?
Does the Scene Detect function work during transcode.
Glad you solved you VTR issues! I assume your clips are geting TC?
Brian Busher November 22nd, 2005, 03:40 PM Ok, I'm new here and all, but does anyone else want the off topic argument to take it outside for a bit? Sheesh! Just answer the bloody question!!!
Anyway Sean,
An "ON TOPIC" response to your question:
We just bought both the GY-100 nd the BR-HD50 and have been using them with Avid XP Pro HD 5.2 for a few weeks now. Here's what I have learned:
I cannot control the deck from the rs422 connection. I didn't try to fiddle too much with the deck settings besides the obvious ones. I am intrigued by the "CONTROLLER SELECT to TYPE 7" option, but will save it for another post. Similar chatter on the Avid forums has led me to believe that there is an issue here with deck control for a lot of people. Hopefully avid will address it soon.
However, I have been able to connect via fire wire on both the deck AND the camera, but I needed to jump thru some hoops to do it. This is what worked for me, so sorry in advance if you have tried it already:
First, Make sure the deck/camera is on when you launch avid. This helps a lot. (Sort of like the old days before "check decks" was so easy) Second, under settings for avid, go to Deck Configuration and delete whatever settings are in there so you can start from scratch. Add a channel and make it Firewire with the port set to OHCI. The avid will probably ask you to autoconfigure, so go ahead. Then with the deck, pick the BR-HD50 in the JVC menu. With the camera, though, the setting that held up for us was to tell it you have a JY HD10U. That seemed to work out a lot of the bugs, and I had both deck control and time code on the firewire. With the deck, I would occasionally lose controll, but if you cycle the power at the deck, and hit check decks, it comes right back and ask what tape is in the deck. I don't have 100% confidence in the timecode, but I never did with DV either since it tends to shift in a rebatch. (I think someone spoke to this earlier) But it's beter than nothing!
One other small issue I had is that the avid does not sense hard stops in the recording (i.e. whenever the heads come off the tape as with power off or past the 3 min standby mode) and it causes a strange "hiccup" that adds a few frames to either the video or audio and punches them out of sync. This accumulates each time this happens, so over the course of an hour tape, you could be a second or more out of sync. If you start a new clip manually at this point during capture, it locks right back up, so keep an eye on it, or pre-log your tapes before you capture them. I'm not sure if this happens to everyone, but it's something to watch out for.
that's my $.02. I hope some of it helped.
Sean McHenry November 22nd, 2005, 04:17 PM Thanks Brian. Useful info. I'll look into repeating your method with the deck.
I probably muddied the water here a bit asking follow up questions.
I know the deck is working in other NLEs as it works fairly well for me under Vegas so I am no longer prone to think it's a deck issue. JVC is in the clear as far as I am concerned at this point on control and even TC issues.
I have to get the info on that system and start a real bug report, if someone else hasn't done it already on this issue.
It's still odd that the deck won't respond to 422 using other standard decks, like Sonys.
Thanks again Brian.
Panos, thanks for the follow up information. I will give your methods a try also.
Jim, I have a short thread there too. You probably ran across it if you did a search in the Avid forums.
Hanging in.
Sean
Sean
Sean
Panos Bournias November 22nd, 2005, 09:46 PM We capture with a setting HDV 720p 30 frames but the footage is transcoded in
DNxHD automatically. Then we export through the EXPORT TO HDV that works instead of the digital cut and the footage is export in m2t stream. Using this m2t stream is captured to tape as HDV mpg again identical to the original footage in quality. I hope that my perseption of the procedure is correct... Now, this is a question, if i change the m2t in mpg the fille is recognised by windows media player and by the dvd authoring softwear. Why is this happening? There is no other way to get the fille as it is?
I have the plug in from adobe and the aspect HD that supports 24 frames. The issue was with the deck control. Is less effective than the Avid one. Also the cineform codec seems less good than the DNxHD, in video quality on the descktop.
I see that the new Avid liquid edition came out with an outbrake box from pinacle? that supports HDV and mpg formats. Have you any info about it? It seems that it is replacing the mojo and that allows preview to a monitor?!
I hope.
It is also a cheaper version than the Pro HD softwear.
We would appreciate a full solution for our editing needs. The marketing language that supports the new NLE solutions for the HD100 JVC cam. is misleading.
As we are not technicians but we produce movies we cannot follow all these bul.... all the time, spending money for half and half performances.
Panos
Steve Mullen November 22nd, 2005, 10:19 PM We capture with a setting HDV 720p 30 frames but the footage is transcoded in
DNxHD automatically. Then we export through the EXPORT TO HDV that works instead of the digital cut and the footage is export in m2t stream. Using this m2t stream is captured to tape as HDV mpg again identical to the original footage in quality. I hope that my perseption of the procedure is correct... Now, this is a question, if i change the m2t in mpg the fille is recognised by windows media player and by the dvd authoring softwear. Why is this happening? There is no other way to get the fille as it is?
THANK YOU -- no one else has reported on using DNxHD. And, your procedure works as I would expect. (I'm still waiting for a copy from Avid.)
I think you are saying if you change file.m2t to file.mpg you can play it in the WM Player. Looks like WMP will play both Program Stream (PS) and Transport Stream(TS) files -- but needs the correct extention.
Try downloading VLC from videolan.com as it will read .m2t directly.
--------------------
I have the plug in from Adobe and the aspect HD that supports 24 frames. The issue was with the deck control. Is less effective than the Avid one. Also the cineform codec seems less good than the DNxHD, in video quality on the descktop.
I too found deck control problems. They said they are going to do more tests. They seem to think their CFHD codec quality is higher than DNxHD. Here's an idea. Use the CFHD "LARGE" setting and the data will be less compressed.
If you use the right graphics card with AspectHD and Premiere Pro it will play out HD to a HD monitor with a DVI connection.
I wouldn't bother about Liquid Edition unless you want to learn a whole new interface.
My experience with CineForm is they really do good work and I have no problems using Premiere Pro. But then I've used Premiere since V1. The next version will support 24p HDV back to the camcorder.
John Mitchell November 23rd, 2005, 08:43 AM Sean, I'm sorry I just caught up with this thread. I can control the camera in HDV @ 720P30 although I haven't tried going back to tape yet. I don't own the BR-HD50, however I may have some suggestions which will help you. Some may be a bit basic, but I figure it's best to cover all bases, espec given that you are experiencing problems that i am not.
1. Ignore Steve, he seems to have a different agenda
2. If you have iTunes installed - uninstall it. Apparently it doesn't play well wth the Avid, and it's an absolute dog for playing music anyway. Great database though.
3. The Avid's capture system is way more sophisticated than a Media 100. Media 100 looks at the start timecode, starts digitising and then tells you at the end if the duration of the clip matched the outpoint (used to drive me nuts with broken code). Avid polls the deck continually for drop frame flags, timecode numbers etc. If it doesn't get what is expected it let's you know with some at times confusing error messages. So I think we can ignore that as an example.
4. You must hook up the deck and have it recognised by Windows before you launch Avid
5. If you have either Adrenaline or Xpress Pro w/Mojo you must choose host for device control (I think it's on the special menu with group mode for some reason -note this is separate from the deck configuration area). That is you understand you cannot capture HDV via an Avid DNA device?
6. If you have Adrenaline or Mojo connected you must have a separate firewire card on a different PCI controller chip to the host (obvious I know but worth covering all bases) - only certain MB chipsets with a North and South bridge support this and then the IEEE card must be inthe right slot.
7. I ran into problems in PAL with JVC's recorded code on tape. I'm wondering if they've mucked up something in 720P30?
8. Give point 7. I'd be looking real hard at JVC's implementation of the Sony 9 pin protocol. Any company that can release a camera which adds a dropframe flag into the 50i stream by definition has shortcomings in this area. I believe their first attempt at a DV/DV-Cam deck was a total disaster and they are now mostly being used as boat anchors.
9. Firewire devices are very prolific, and they don't always respect the ID protocol set out in the specs. In firewire mode try removing all other firewire devices.
10. Once again basic - make sure you are using a 422 - 232 converter (usually a Rosetta Stone for Avid) that you know is "good" - test the complete path, cables and everything on another deck (preferably a Sony)
11. Adrenaline support for 720P30 is still in beta, so I assume you must have been using the beta version to test on Adrenaline. Only Xpress Pro has a released version.
12. As Avid now owns Liquid, you could probably try and offline in that if you can't solve your problems. While you don't have full timeline and effects support to move to the traditional Avid products I believe they have already introduced some interoperability.
13. Finally I have had the odd problem with the firewire connection on the HD100 being a bit temperamental (seems like the socket is not the most secure in the world) - it must be recognised by windows and appear as an AV/C tape device in your hardware devices list, before you launch Avid. Check that you have installed the IEEE1394 update to SP2 for XP which unnecessarily slowed the port down to 100Mb/s and caused havoc with firewire devices.
Sean McHenry November 26th, 2005, 01:20 AM John. All good things to check. I will go over this again Monday morning. Thanks for the very clear ideas. I would love to play more in the Xpress ProHD suite but the darned editors and management keep insisting they get some non-HDV work done in there.
As soon as I have a chance I'll look into the SP2 issue. I forgot about that one.
Sean McHenry
Dave Beaty November 26th, 2005, 05:10 PM We have been able to use RS-422 remote from two or three different sources to control the HD50.
I had to set preroll to at least 7 seconds, it takes the deck so long to get HDV up and running. Also, I changed the EE settings so I can keep the tape threaded when I hit stop. This helps reduce that 5-10 sec lag as the GOP gets decoded.
But the real issue has been malfunctions. This has happened with 2 of our HD50 decks. I now have a loaner from Ken Freed while JVC engineering looks into the problem with one that is malfunctioning. The other deck was replaced with a new one and has not malfunctioned yet other that reporting a head clog after playing one tape for 20 minutes or so.
Still no idea what is causing the problems with these decks. It's replicatable but only under certain conditions of heavy use. We just don't know if it is a problem using RS-422, a problem with the deck dealing with batch capturing lot's of HDV clips, the type of tape or what.
Symptom: During capture in remote, the machine jumps into an error mode, often switching into "50" or PAL. (these are NTSC machines). Then the output character gen puts one of several strange error warnings on the screen "Playback Inhibit", "Repeat=00", "Overheating" ect. When this happens the deck shuts off. Unplugging it is the only way to get it back on. When we get it back up and switch the format back to "60", the deck often will no longer recognize tapes in the "native" setting and only by forcing the format to 720p can we get them to output HDV again.
I'l love to hear from any other people who experience this so we can compare notes.
I know this isn't just about Avid control, but I think there are some bigger problems that people are going to see once they really put the deck into heavy service.
Dave Beaty
Sean McHenry November 28th, 2005, 12:01 PM Dave, we haven't had that happen yet. We do have a new one in the box here but I have a few things to check on our side before running it through it's paces.
First, we found a known issue on our Xpress ProHD machine. We somehow had QT updated to 7.0.2 and I think Avid is still recommending 6.5x as the only operational version they will deal with. With it came iTunes. I swear Apple is getting to be like Microsoft bundeling things together. I'm sure onee of the operators needed a codec and thought he was getting just the newer QT.
Anyway, these may have nothing to do with our 422 and 1394 control issues.
I can say we rented a Sony HDV camera and it is working well enough right now via 1394. Has video/audio and control. Looks good too. Too bad the JVCs are an issue.
John -
Looked over all your points here at work toady and yep, I concur with everything you mentioned. We either did that or tried it and none of those things matter except, the last tie I plugged the BR-HD50 deck in via 1394, no ding-ding from the PC. We aren't sure what's going on there yet.
See above but the Sony HDV camera is doing fine with the same setup. It's in the 4th suite grabbing 1080i HDV footage right now. So far so good.
On iTunes, is there anything on the Avid or other sites about that conflict? I haven't looked yet but will do so after lunch here. We indeed do have it installed. As soon as I can get permission to remove it I will, along with the 7.0.2 version of QT. I'm sure they got installed together accidentally. (Thanks Apple.)
I think the supported version is still QT 6.5.3 or so.
Thanks again.
Sean
Sean McHenry
Andi Preisner December 1st, 2005, 12:30 PM Hi Sean,
Being a PAL-user: yes, the JVC BR-HD50 works fine on Avid! But, indeed, it took us some time to get to this point...
Discovered that it only works using the only Mac Adrenalin, and thatīs
because of the keyspan adapter between deck and G5. Direct remote via
RS-422 or Firewire does not work!
Secondly we were successful using the Template JVC BR-D52E PAL. I donīt
know whether this is helpful for you using NTSC, but at least this does
prove that you are able to use the deck, doesnīt it?
Meanwhile I have moved to a Mac-based Xpresspro station, and it also seems to work fine.
best regards+good luck,
Andi
Steve Mullen December 1st, 2005, 01:06 PM the last time I plugged the BR-HD50 deck in via 1394, no ding-ding from the PC. We aren't sure what's going on there yet.
That means Windows either doesn't know the deck was disconnected (unlikely) or it does not see the deck. Without a ding-ding from Windows the XP driver is unware and not working with the deck.
Most application software uses the XP driver so it is helpless if the driver doesn't have control of the deck.
This problem must be solved before anything. Either power cycle the deck or reboot the computer -- or both, with deck being powered up ONLY AFTER XP is fully running. You must hear a ding-ding when the deck is powered-up and you should power-down the deck -- with another ding-ding -- before shutting-dowm or restarting XP.
Lastly, as someone else posted -- count on at least 10 seconds before you get good data from a PLAY.
Charles Roberts December 7th, 2005, 11:25 AM Though infrequently, we've had Dave Beatty's issue as well, using RS 422 and FCP Component Capture through decklink. First time we thought it was a user error (that was an 'overheat' message, then stuck in PAL), then next I KNOW it wasn't user error, this time 'repeat=00' then stuck in PAL. Scary thing now is that the repeat=00 error message hasn't gone away like last time after I got the deck back functioning, and I'm not sure what that means. I do know how to get the deck back into working order (and its not simply powering back up, you gotta set 2 or 3 different menu items without the benefit of seeing them unless you have a PAL monitor hooked up!)
Only one of our decks does this. they're both awesome decks beyond this little problem, not one other problem aside. And I LOVE the RS 422!
PS, all of our offline-online recaptures with RS 422 have been dead-on with the TC, as you would expect with serial control. FireWire deck control has never been reliable and I'm tickled pink to have the serial control.
Feel free to contact me about particulars of the troubleshooting, JVC!
We have been able to use RS-422 remote from two or three different sources to control the HD50.
I had to set preroll to at least 7 seconds, it takes the deck so long to get HDV up and running. Also, I changed the EE settings so I can keep the tape threaded when I hit stop. This helps reduce that 5-10 sec lag as the GOP gets decoded.
But the real issue has been malfunctions. This has happened with 2 of our HD50 decks. I now have a loaner from Ken Freed while JVC engineering looks into the problem with one that is malfunctioning. The other deck was replaced with a new one and has not malfunctioned yet other that reporting a head clog after playing one tape for 20 minutes or so.
Still no idea what is causing the problems with these decks. It's replicatable but only under certain conditions of heavy use. We just don't know if it is a problem using RS-422, a problem with the deck dealing with batch capturing lot's of HDV clips, the type of tape or what.
Symptom: During capture in remote, the machine jumps into an error mode, often switching into "50" or PAL. (these are NTSC machines). Then the output character gen puts one of several strange error warnings on the screen "Playback Inhibit", "Repeat=00", "Overheating" ect. When this happens the deck shuts off. Unplugging it is the only way to get it back on. When we get it back up and switch the format back to "60", the deck often will no longer recognize tapes in the "native" setting and only by forcing the format to 720p can we get them to output HDV again.
I'l love to hear from any other people who experience this so we can compare notes.
I know this isn't just about Avid control, but I think there are some bigger problems that people are going to see once they really put the deck into heavy service.
Dave Beaty
Ken Freed JVC December 7th, 2005, 03:45 PM We have seen Dave Beaty's deck. There does seem to be a small difficulty here.
It APPEARS (we aren't certain yet) the deck resets itself to 50Hz instead of 60Hz. It can be difficult to then set it to 60Hz using a 60Hz monitor.
However.
NOTE: in the instruction book where the menu tables are you will notice small numbers under each menu item. Those are the front panel numbers which indicate each item. Using those numbers you can navigate the menu structure without a monitor at all. You can go to the the frequency and set 60Hz.
Dave's deck we think also reset to auto record but we couldn't confirm that. And his deck seemed to reset to a temperature sensor value lower than the default should be, this would imply the deck is not overheating but the temp limit is set too low. We didn't have too much time that day and we returned Dave's deck.
We are looking into this but it will take longer than I wish it would.
Charles Roberts December 7th, 2005, 04:44 PM Thanks for the info
Dave Beaty December 7th, 2005, 10:07 PM Thanks Ken,
I know the malfunction I was having is a very intermittent problem. At least it's been documented in a few units. (Charles's) I wonder if it's not somehow related to control via RS-422, which allows for very fast shuttling and capture in batch capture mode. Maybe there is a bug in there somewhere that fires the overheating routine. PAL mode was a surprise, but I was able to activate NTSC even on an NTSC monitor in PAL mode!
Before all this, we saw the overheating error the first time we experienced the prob, before the reboot and reset after the error. Do you think the temp sensor level was too low out of the box?
In normal use, with capturing long clips or playing tapes, nothing unusual.
Our unit that JVC engineering reset is functioning as new, yet I've not done a serious RS-422 capture session with it. Actually we are switching to Panasonic tape to eliminate the possibility that the Sony brand formula was causing the temp senor to rise as well as the head clog warnings. We shall see what happens.
Dave B
Charles Roberts December 7th, 2005, 10:51 PM Hopefully we'll find out soon. We were using nothing but JVC stock HDV packaged tape.
Could be maybe with the serial and heavy shuttling, we definitely do that. Only JVC engineers con sort it out. Hope they will be able to, because I'm loving the workflow I'm getting with the 100U and the BR.
John Mitchell December 7th, 2005, 11:35 PM Hi Sean,
Being a PAL-user: yes, the JVC BR-HD50 works fine on Avid! But, indeed, it took us some time to get to this point...
Discovered that it only works using the only Mac Adrenalin, and thatīs
because of the keyspan adapter between deck and G5. Direct remote via
RS-422 or Firewire does not work!
Andi
Andi _ I believe you but that makes no sense at all - the RS422 should work with windows - I have numerous (admittedly all Sony) decks working with XPro, Adrenaline and Xpress Elite, both on XP and W2000. The deck and the RS422 protocol sound like the culprit here. I even have an old UVW1400 with a 232-422-232 converter situation - works perfectly. When you think about it all the keyspan adapter does is convert the traditional serial information so it can be read on a different kind of port, so practically it should make no difference at all.
It's clear to me that JVC have either stuffed up the protocol, or probably more likely the electrical specs, if it works with one adapter and not another. I would contact Bruce at Addenda Electronics and see if he has anyway of testing the deck... I've found him extremely helpful in the past.
On iTunes, is there anything on the Avid or other sites about that conflict? I haven't looked yet but will do so after lunch here. We indeed do have it installed. As soon as I can get permission to remove it I will, along with the 7.0.2 version of QT. I'm sure they got installed together accidentally. (Thanks Apple.)
I think the supported version is still QT 6.5.3 or so.
Sean - I got my information from the local Avid ACSR - I haven't seen anything on Avid's site and I can't even tell you what the specific conflict is. You can download a standalone installer for Quicktime. I think they want you to install 7 with the latest HD release, but I'm sure it's broken some things.
That lack of recognition in firewire mode is a worry for you...
Sean McHenry December 8th, 2005, 09:54 PM Ken from JVC, please post anything new you find out about issues on TC and 422 control for the BR-HD50 deck. We have 2 of these now as well as 2 of the HD100 cameras and may be going for more. I am one of 3 Engineers for the largest post house in central Ohio and we would love to say we are thrilled with the system but alas, the workflow is so far leaving something to be desired, as you can probably tell from the sheer variety of issues in this one thread alone.
The world is waiting for joint Avid/JVC support of 24p by the way. hint-hint, nudge-nudge, say no more.
For everyone else who is having issues or has offered help or suggestions, I have only this to add to my previous statements.
I have, for an unknown reason, by using a different 1394 card, seen the deck operate sending the finished timeline to tape automatically, as it should. Our older Dell, Avid certified workstations came to us with the requsite two 1394 cards. We are also using a 1394 external drive. Maxtor one touches I think they are. If we add the deck to one card, no ding-ding from the XP Pro, SP2 OS. If we add it to the card with the drive on it, I believe the card that was OEM from Dell (just a guess at this point), the machine recognizes the deck, although it never actually shows up in the device manager.
Starting Avid, we see it shake hands with the deck as it comes to life for a second, like a well connected deck should when it's getting "probed". From there we were able to lay back to the HDV device from the timeline. Avid created the m2t file without complaint and then proceded to lay off to tape automatically. Subsequent layoffs using the same m2t file seemed to also behave well.
All that was a few days ago and as luck would have it, the IT department got us a new certified HP machine and the 5.2.1 upgrade hit the streets from Avid. Avid claims we should be able to get scene detection from HDV. How I am not sure yet as we know it doesn't handle TC breaks very comfortably in HDV. The note that it is sort of working above still doesn't explain why we would not have 422 control from any other devices. We haven't gotten it to do any deck controlled captures at this moment but further testing in light of the above 1394 card issue above, is soon to follow.
My last note on this issue for now is to point out that Avid still insists, according to their supported hardware list, that the HD100 camera cannot use capture from TC (no setting in, out points to capture) or batch capture at all from the camera. That could be read potentially as Avid stating that 1394 deck control is not to their liking. The BR-HD50 deck still hasn't made the list of acceptable hardware at all. I am starting to wonder why.
More as it develops.
Sean McHenry
Steve Mullen December 9th, 2005, 12:52 AM Avid claims we should be able to get scene detection from HDV. How I am not sure yet as we know it doesn't handle TC breaks very comfortably in HDV
That could be read potentially as Avid stating that 1394 deck control is not to their liking.
Scene Detection does NOT need to use TC which is why the whole issue of TC has not been a big deal to those of that have used SD for the last 5 years with DV and HDV.
And, since Insert editing DV to camcorders is not officially supported, TC has been no big deal with DV. Likewise, since you cannot assemble edit or insert edit HDV, TC has been no big deal for the last 2 years of working with HDV.
For those that must have TC -- they may need to answer the question of the suitability of HDV for "pro" use. Despite being called ProHD, the GY-HD100 is in the prosumer class of equipment.
For example, other products claim Batch Capture, etc. -- but I have noted that it is not 100% reliable -- which is likely why Avid claims it does not support it.
For those that really need TC, their only hope is the HD50 deck. And, there have been reports it works fine.
Sean McHenry December 9th, 2005, 07:25 PM The HD50 has reports going both ways. It would be just as unfair of me to say it is universally broken as it is to state universally that it is working. Especially since Avid still hasn't certified it, and the camera is not fully supported. See the Supported Hardware Read me with Xpress Pro.
Despite the incessant cry from a few, TC is necessary to get this Professionally marketed deck to be useful to anyone other than a single suite operation. This deck is sold as professional and it claims to have TC but it remains unreliable to a significant percentage of us.
Scene detection generally works with dramatic changes in video and, TC. There is an option in Avid to stop capture at TC breaks or not. This would be a dead function without TC. I can think of many reasons to have capture halt at a TC break.
There seems to be that creeping feeling amongst younger editors and producers that a lot of great, and professional functions are no longer needed or viable. This descussion and that opinion would never fly on the Avid forums.
Amateur and single edit suite shops can survive without TC and accurate deck control and lots of other features. My personal opinion is that folks in those situations have money issues and so can't afford to do it right. Perhaps it is up to us to demand the manufacturers stick to the various broadcast standards, and to not water down the meaning of the term "professional".
Charles Roberts December 9th, 2005, 08:08 PM Our problems with the BR50 have nothing to do with accuracy. The serial control and TC and capture has been dead on every capture on both our decks (we are using FCP and RS 422 and decklink capture card). Picture is great, captures are accurate. That's professional control. I'm not sure where the discussion veered off into that 'pro/consumer' part of the jungle. that's never proven to be a very profitable topic.
We are offlining and onlining using the oldest digital workflow in the world and no problems. Don't count me in the crew that can live without TC! If I can't offfline consolidate or media manage a full drive to make space I'm sunk! Try cutting a 6:1 shooting ratio for a 30 minute script and you'll reconsider keeping full tapes online pretty fast (unless you're filthy rich, which I ain't).
I repeat the only problem we have experienced is a (hopefully) erroneous error that resets the deck in mid-capture. That's it! This ONLY happens intermittently and after SEVERAL captures in a batch capture. One, two or three clip batch captures or capture now are flawless.
I tend to doubt this is a bad wiring and protocol on the RS 422; those things would tend to not work at all, or be totally random and wacky, I would think. Not accurate and then deck completely resetting! I'll repeat. Absolutely accurate TC here through the serial RS 422. Totally professional and efficient. Except for the wonky reset thing.
And I trust JVC to get to the bottom of it, ASAP. Meanwhile we are just doing batches with fewer clips. My apologies if I've misunderstood the jist of the thread otherwise; there are way too many words in this one.
Sean McHenry December 9th, 2005, 10:13 PM Charles, that's great news for you guys. I wish it was working for us as well. We too would use the standard workflow if our hardware would cooperate. I will be testing our new Avid machine later next week. Had shoulder surgery today so I will be out for a few days.
As soon as I can book HDV testing time, I'll jump in there and play some more. I am glad it's working for some. We will probably find our pathway soon. We may simply have a defective deck.
I naturally am right with you on the TC as a needed item. We might have better luck, in fact I know the BR50 works with Vegas, but it's back to Avid/JVC to figure it out.
Thanks,
Sean
John Mitchell December 10th, 2005, 09:44 AM I tend to doubt this is a bad wiring and protocol on the RS 422; those things would tend to not work at all, or be totally random and wacky, I would think. Not accurate and then deck completely resetting! I'll repeat. Absolutely accurate TC here through the serial RS 422. Totally professional and efficient. Except for the wonky reset thing.
And I trust JVC to get to the bottom of it, ASAP. Meanwhile we are just doing batches with fewer clips. My apologies if I've misunderstood the jist of the thread otherwise; there are way too many words in this one.
Charles how do you explain all the Sony decks that do work with the Avid? I'm trying to give people an understanding of why 422 might be working with FCP and not with AVID. The reason I touched on before is purely voltage levels. One user reported it worked on his Avid Mac but not on the PC - that says to me that 422 converter (stealth) on the Mac or the Mac port itself might be less sensitive to incorrect voltage levels (or better able to correct them) than the combination of 422 converters and serial ports on the PC. I thought it was worth looking into (it's a significant hardware difference) which is why I recommended Bruce from Addenda because he makes the Rosetta Stone and a bunch of other converters.
And if you think JVC have a handle on the 422 protocol remember 1000's of PAL HD101E's were sent out with a dropframe flag being inserted into the 50i stream. It was an Avid that picked up this error, not FCP (that's not an FCP bash BTW -great program, really has brought the price of the Avid down :-).
Sony decks work with Avid, (and they should they wrote the protocol), JVC BR-HD50 seems to work poorly or intermittently. I realise that's not impacting on you but it sure is giving Avid users a major headache. I think the onus is on JVC here to analyse and fix the problem pronto. Oh Avid should have a crack at it as well.
Panos Bournias December 10th, 2005, 10:45 AM The JVC Avid cooperation for me is still a big problem.
I still get the drop outs on tape. And is not only this.
For a 45 min project the m2t is interupted when it starts decoding the sound, the avid stops operating and i am obliged to cut the project in small portions, maximum 10 min in order to get it out into tape ( With the drop outs).
With the BR 50 I can never estimate how many frames will get lost from the beginning of each "sequence" that is automatically exported from the Avid.
I am waiting for news from JVC - Avid in Jakarta.
For the moment they confirmed that there is an error at the tape that i gave them for testing-checking.
They advised to export to tape using the camera.
I will try tomorrow.
I did the raid at my computer HDs, i used pro hd tapes, but the drop outs are always there.
I hope that the 521 Avid concidered all our reports about bugs and misfunctions of the program.
If not, the combination is unusable for professional projects and seems like everyone has his one different problems.
Anyway:
Who can give advise for the hanging at a 30 - 40 min long m2t streem.
Who can give advise for the drop outs.
I must deliver the project and all my stress is not on the artistic quality but on the export to tape issue. And the answers from JVC Avid never come...!
Stephen L. Noe December 10th, 2005, 11:24 AM Who can give advise for the hanging at a 30 - 40 min long m2t streem.
Who can give advise for the drop outs.
Panos,
Why not just capture with CapDVHS and import into Avid? It's painless.
CapDVHS application (http://www.yamabe.org/soft/CapDVHS0306e.zip)
Web Site (http://www.yamabe.org/softbody.html#CapDVHS)
I haven't quite followed this from the beginning but, are you working in 30p or 24p?
Charles Roberts December 10th, 2005, 01:43 PM I'm not even going to suggest my 'tend to think' is scientific at all. Was just based on 'if it works here, it should work there' and that my limited experience with PC solutions has caused me to suspect the PC before other technology. But that's anecdote and we all know not to rely on that, so I'll shut my ill-suited mouth on the subject ;0). By all means get the guy from Addenda crackin (haven't dealt with that name since I was still in love with a media 100!). Actually the Blackmagic decklink guys would be a good source too, because that's how the 422 is getting inside our box. And they make drivers for both PC and Mac. Perhaps you could give them a shout on their web forum. If it works like Premiere on a PC through Decklink, then Avid still might be relatively suspect. Or maybe the serial ports in use (decklink provides on-board SP). Whatever, what was i saying about shutting my mouth?
I can't remember in this thread if anyone stated whether there was a deck profile yet. If not, Avid's answer as to why not would speak volumes I'm sure. They tend to take a long time to support new hardware, regardless of the hardware, in my experience (bad news when it means you can't invest in a new machine till they allow it!). Then again, when they approve it, its more reliable than anything else.
I agree, both parties should be all over this thing. I was happy to see my buddy at Avid at NAB demoing Xpress Pro next to this deck (although not hooked up) because we use both apps here. They gotta get it fixed and make good on that dream. And FCP gotta come through with that native 24P (come on MacWorld!) before I am 100% there.
Best o luck though!
Steve Mullen December 10th, 2005, 04:46 PM Despite the incessant cry from a few, TC is necessary to get this Professionally marketed deck to be useful to anyone other than a single suite operation. This deck is sold as professional and it claims to have TC but it remains unreliable to a significant percentage of us.
The point was specifically that theose who need TC must use the VTR -- not the camcorder -- and must use RS422.
So your rant on younger editors is totally misplaced. Those that don't need TC will use 1394 support with the camcorder and it will work fine. In fact they are "doing it right" for their application.
You are using -- as I remember -- an "uncertified by Avid product" and blaming everyone for it not working. I would suggest you wait until a product has been certified.
JVC has no fault in calling it a "pro" deck since it does seem to work fine with non Avid products.
"Scene detection generally works with dramatic changes in video and, TC. There is an option in Avid to stop capture at TC breaks or not. This would be a dead function without TC. I can think of many reasons to have capture halt at a TC break."
Scene Dectection uses the TOD stamp. It captures each shot. It is really irrelevant what the TC is doing. All that's important is each scene is captured to disk. Seems to me that those using the camcorder as intended by Avid would have a production done in the time you've spent making a non-certified product try to conform to your needs. Getting a project done by using the tools as they ACTUALLY work with your NLE seems to be the very definition of "pro."
If the computer goes off and handles something else it can lead to TC problems and to export DOs.
John Mitchell December 11th, 2005, 06:49 AM I'm pretty sure all the deck profiles do in Avid is adjust the finer points like edit delay, whether a deck is capable of insert editing, the amount of pre-roll needed on edit and playback, etc. I don't think they actually modify the 422 protocol in any way.
You can actually get most decks to do all the basic things correctly using the generic templates.
In fact that is what should happen if there is no specific template for a deck - the Avid should still recognise it as a generic PAL or NTSC deck.
John Mitchell December 11th, 2005, 07:22 AM Steve I think your being a bit harsh although the quip about younger editors may have been a tad condescending.
I thought the whole point of this thread was to see if we could help people solve the problems with these decks - I don't think telling people that they are wasting their time is productive. If the deck was working perfectly for everyone else but Sean you might have a point, but from oher posts in this thread he's clearly amongst the majority not the minority. It's the persistence of guys like Sean that help solve problems for everyone.
Can we get back on topic now?
Chris Hurd December 11th, 2005, 11:24 AM Harshness edited out, and in the future please use the "Report This Post" function to the bottom right instead of responding directly. There is no need to be harsh here, and more importantly, no need to respond to it. And I completely agree, let's get back on topic.
You are using -- as I remember -- an "uncertified by Avid product" and blaming everyone for it not working. I would suggest you wait until a product has been certified.And yet -- Avid *did* certify at NAB2005. So let's stick to properly addressing the question, please.
Thanks in advance,
Yusuf Thakur December 11th, 2005, 01:25 PM We have been capturing via component and RS422 with the Deck for over
3 months, the footage has been shot HDV720/25p it is letter box downconverted and captured in Liquid 6 via bob on the Liquid machine and Preimere 6.5 on the Digisuite platform, yes we still have one of those. The Projects in both are SD 576i and we have had no problems of any kind. Wish we could batch capture HDV via 1394. But there is hope for the patient just got the upgrade to Liquid 7 will see if this works.
Sean McHenry December 12th, 2005, 03:20 AM Yusuf,
I will add your system to the list of setups that are working with this JVC hardware.
We have all Avid certified hardware at my day job. My personal editing machines are not certified. I get exactly the same responses with both certified and non certified systems.
As far as I am concerned, unless Ken from JVC as more to add, I have nothing more to say on this issue.
One last suggestion for folks joining the thread late, read the whole thing before commenting. We find ourselves repeating information otherwise.
Chris, if this "harshness" was on my end, I apologize to the group. Getting frustrating/frustrated.
My humble thanks to all attempting to contribute here.
Sean
John Mitchell December 12th, 2005, 10:05 AM Harshness edited out, and in the future please use the "Report This Post" function to the bottom right instead of responding directly. There is no need to be harsh here, and more importantly, no need to respond to it. And I completely agree, let's get back on topic.
And yet -- Avid *did* certify at NAB2005. So let's stick to properly addressing the question, please.
Thanks in advance,
My apologies - didn't realise I was breaking etiquette..
nuff said
Stephen L. Noe December 12th, 2005, 12:38 PM One last suggestion for folks joining the thread late, read the whole thing before commenting. We find ourselves repeating information otherwise.
Sean, You're probably referring to me in that comment. I probably should have read the whole thread. Yosuf and I use the same Liquid 6.1 in which I (or Yosuf) have no problem with deck control or 30p. It's the 24p that is a problem.
My bad amigo and all the best of luck...
Sean McHenry December 12th, 2005, 12:43 PM Stephen, no big deal, I just get into a circle at times telling folks what was already tried, etc. Most folks are just truely trying to be helpful. I appreciate all that.
We'll figure this bugger out yet. (Or buy Sony.)
See ya'll around,
Sean
David Dessel December 16th, 2005, 09:13 PM Today I hooked up the 50 Deck to my Avid Meridian system so I could use it as a DVCAM source machine going component out. After trying several configurations within the Avid and the deck, I was unable to prevent the unit from locking up.
This occured when a tape was inserted and during high speed shuttleing. The only way to get the deck back online was to disconnect the power cable for a brief moment.
This is a bummer, since I was looking forward to downconverting the film-like hdv directly into the Avid for a look. Seems like the workaround is to downconvert to a Beta SP or Digi and capture.
I've had no trouble controlling the deck on another system via firewire and FCP. I was however, hoping for an easy workflow when doing SD work on the Avid.
-Dave Dessel
Sean McHenry December 18th, 2005, 12:03 AM David, since you mentioned the "film like look" I wanted to make sure you are also aware that Avid still can't handle the 24p HDV format yet. At least not the MCAs or Xpress Pro HD. Kinda' sucks.
Sean
David Dessel December 19th, 2005, 01:39 PM Yes, I am aware of Avid's current HDV limitations. I'm using FCP for all of my HDV needs. FCP or AVID, it's all the same to me as my only concern is content and they are both fine tools.
However, one of the things I want to do is use the real-time down conversion in the deck to go in to my Avid Meridian System. As I stated earlier, batch digitizing does not work on this older system (4.5 years old) and the 50 deck. For SD projects, on this system, I'll dub to a Beta Format and then batch, until a solution can be found.
Best,
-Dave Dessel
Sean McHenry December 22nd, 2005, 10:19 AM David, were you trying to control the deck on the Avid via 1394 or RS422? I know you said 1394 for FCP but you din't say for the Avid.
Thanks,
Sean
David Dessel December 22nd, 2005, 01:22 PM Hey Sean,
On the Avid it's RS-422 that's causing the problem. I have no problems at all with Firewire.
Happy Holidays,
-Dave Dessel
Sean McHenry December 22nd, 2005, 04:59 PM That's what I thought. I am in talks now with our JVC Engineer for this region. I may mention you to him also as another person who can't get RS422 working. We have 2 of the BR50 decks now and I need to schedule room time in that suite to test 422 to the new deck. I'll be in touch.
Sean
David Dessel December 22nd, 2005, 08:04 PM Sean,
I am happy to speak to the JVC folks. I E-Mailed you my contact information. Have an awesome holiday.
-Dave Dessel
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