From what we know of P2 workflows, and how the various editing programs that will be supporting the format are going to handle it, I'm curious to get people's opinions on who they think has the best implementation and workflow for handling P2 HD material. One of Barry's posts from another thread prompted this question, when he was doing a run-down of different editors (Avid, FCP, Canopus, etc) and how they would interpret the footage (Avid natively, FCP reconforms to Quicktime etc.)

I'm really hoping this thread doesn't turn into a "you should use whichever editor you like" or simply a comparison of different platforms based on other factors. Specifically, I'm looking for who we think has the best workflow for P2 and HD, and not looking at other factors. I realize it may be a bit premature as the HVX isn't out, but P2 and HD certainly are, and all the major players seem to have presented their solutions for handling this camera, so perhaps we could base judgements off this.

Right now I'm cutting on an Avid Xpress Pro system (on a Mac, which isn't the best combination these days). So I'm anxious to switch over to FCP, but when Barry mentioned FCP's reconform to QT's, that gave me pause. So I'm wondering what everyone's planning on using, or what they think of the current offerings out there. Thanks!

Peter

Edit: I think another major factor I'd like to consider in the discussion is the ability to mix different formats in the same timeline (HDV, DVCProHD, SD material). I know Avid's Xpress Pro offering for the PC will have this capability. Will other editors, including FCP, also be able to do this?

Provided you have the HD codec and P2 options installed, (sold as an option to those that need them), Edius will work with P2. My understanding is that you can use the Panasonic codec on the timeline or, alternatively, convert to the intermediate Canopus HQ codec at capture. The HQ codec will enable you to mix formats on the timeline.

I believe that Canopus will be at DVExpo West next month when more may be revealed.

Provided you have the HD codec and P2 options installed, (sold as an option to those that need them), Edius will work with P2. My understanding is that you can use the Panasonic codec on the timeline or, alternatively, convert to the intermediate Canopus HQ codec at capture. The HQ codec will enable you to mix formats on the timeline.

I believe that Canopus will be at DVExpo West next month when more may be revealed.

+ you will need the varicam option to edit anything other then 29.97

edius...
1) you must buy a Canopus Codec Option $1000...
2) you must buy P2 Option $1,500
3) One free USB port for hardware key for P2 option
4) you must buy VARICAM Option $1,700
5) One free USB port for hardware key for varicam option

Wouldn't it be neat if Canopus just bundled the whole damn thing together at a reasonable price? Kind of like a NX for HVX (or) NX for DVCPROHD package. Canopus real-time editing is huge, but I'm not so sure many people will be willing to shell out another $4000+ (NX + all options minus computer!) after purchasing the HVX.
I remember when the Canopus SP for HDV card came out. It was mega bucks! They promptly released the NX package for half the price and I guarantee to it sells much better. Who knows, maybe they have something in the works. Considering the huge buzz around a camera that hasn't even been released yet, it seems like it would be a good idea.

What about if one must use a Mac,
and the P2 card footage is transferred to an external Hard Drive and that is then plugged into your Mac.

Final Cut says it supports Native HD but from what I read everywhere it will only do this using a Quicktime wrapper
but the files don't have to be re digitized - will Final Cut simply not recognize them?

Am I wrong inassuming that the P2 > HD >plug into Computer will take care of the Ingestion of footage into Final Cut (or Avid ) on a Mac.

and I too wonder about the ability to Mix different footage 720p & 1080i

Thanks

Wouldn't it be neat if Canopus just bundled the whole damn thing together at a reasonable price? .


they make to much money selling seperatly...ultimately they will get left behind, its because canopus does not understand its product in the US market at all...

the varicam option does support
720/23.976p over 59.94p
720/29.97p over 59.94p
720/59.94p
720/24p over 60p
720/25p over 60p
720/50p over 60p

but it costs a ludicris $1,700 plus a free usb port

and just to able to read p2 cards you need to spend $1,500 and have a free usb port...

so to edit hvx 24p material on edius softare only, like on a laptop you need to buy
edius $700
dvcpro codec pack $1,000
p2 option $1500
varicam option $1,700

thats $4,900....my advice is get fcp or an avid

That is expensive - like most things HD. It will be interesting to see if and how they bundle the HD versions of Edius differently when the HVX appears.

Hold on! Isn't it as simple as just plugging the camera to your MAC, transfer the files to another drive, then open FCP HD and import the files?

I already pre-ordered my HVX200, but I can still change to a SONY Z1 HDV if the HVX200 files need too much investment or time to edit on a single FCPHD solution with no extra cards.

-EDWIN

Hold on! Isn't it as simple as just plugging the camera to your MAC, transfer the files to another drive, then open FCP HD and import the files?

On the Mac, it is that simple. If you have the HVX200 camera, a Mac, and FCP installed, the P2 card will show up as a mounted volume, and you can copy the files via drag and drop. Or in FCP, you can import selected clips (or all clips per card), so that FCP manages the files and where they are stored. All frame rates and sizes are reported to be supported, although I haven't read about 1080p anywhere yet. In time I'll be able to test for myself.

HVX200 and the Mac is a killer combo. Regarding a pro editing station, if you need real-time monitoring on an HDTV, you'll need something like the Kona LH or Kona 2 (starts at around $1500), an HDTV ($????), and plenty of hard drive space $???-$????.

Check out the Matrox Axio. Once they release the DVCPRO codec it will be one of the most powerful ways to edit HD for the money.


http://www.matrox.com/video/products/axio/home.cfm

http://tinyurl.com/8ta46

http://tinyurl.com/7m65h

http://tinyurl.com/b2q99

Check out the Matrox Axio. Once they release the DVCPRO codec it will be one of the most powerful ways to edit HD for the money.


the problem i have with axio besides the insane price tag, is that its hardware based, and that means i can no longer do any editing on my laptop, i do 30% of my work on the road...

as soon as the mactel powerbooks come out i'm going to pick up fcp which seems to have the best of both worlds...

Interesting thread.

Suppose I was to buy a BRAND SPANKING NEW editing suite just for the HVX (assuming I have a lot of work to edit), if I was to get a P2 capable Mac and/or a Edius and/or a whatever then, what would be the all inclusive barebones price to get into the game, so the speak?

the problem i have with axio besides the insane price tag, is that its hardware based, and that means i can no longer do any editing on my laptop, i do 30% of my work on the road...

as soon as the mactel powerbooks come out i'm going to pick up fcp which seems to have the best of both worlds...

You can use the axio codec on any machine you just won't get any of the accelerated effects and abilities. Then once you have it edited the way you want it, say on your laptop you can bring it into axio and finish it.

You can use the axio codec on any machine you just won't get any of the accelerated effects and abilities. Then once you have it edited the way you want it, say on your laptop you can bring it into axio and finish it.

Steve do you have axio, can premiere edit dvcpro files with the axio codec on a laptop with any rt playback? for that matter can fcp on a laptop?

with the Edius you are also able to use proxy files so you can work with 1/4 of the bandwidth... can premiere or fcp 5 do this if anyone knows that would be a great help thanks...

for that matter can fcp on a laptop?


Yes. Even on the relatively slow G4 Powerbooks, you can still edit 720P footage. That being said, obviously the number of realtime effects you can do is limited, but it can be done.

Does anyone know if FCP supports multiple formats (ie DVCProHD, HDV) in the same timeline like the Avid does?

Peter

Check out the Matrox Axio. Once they release the DVCPRO codec it will be one of the most powerful ways to edit HD for the money.

If it's as flakey, "full featured" and as "well" supported as all their other products over the past few years, I'll pass. And it uses Premiere... Yuck. I know this is just my OPINION, but why would anyone spend that kind of money on a Premiere editing solution that can't run any more streams in realtime than what a top of the line workstation can do on its own now?

Steve do you have axio, can premiere edit dvcpro files with the axio codec on a laptop with any rt playback? for that matter can fcp on a laptop?
with the Edius you are also able to use proxy files so you can work with 1/4 of the bandwidth... can premiere or fcp 5 do this if anyone knows that would be a great help thanks...

No I don't own an Axio, yet...
Yes, premiere can but your limited to what it can do in realtime out of the box.


Yes, you can use proxy files with axio or premiere as long as you batch capture with and EDL. Axio also has a proxy codec itself.

From the website:

"For responsive low bit rate editing of proxy HD material on a laptop, from a DVD, or over a low-bandwidth network, Matrox Axio also features an offline HD codec."


"Offline editing using the Matrox Axio offline HD codec
The Matrox Axio offline HD codec captures HD material at 1/16 resolution. For example a 1920 x 1080 image will be captured at 480 x 270 at less than 10 mbps. Aspect ratio, frame rate, and timecode are preserved for easy conforming"

"The Matrox Axio offline HD codec offers many advantages:
• Because the proxy files are small, you get very responsive performance for making your offline edit decisions, even on an ordinary laptop.
• When you use the proxy files on an Axio system they will be scaled to full size for previewing your project either directly on your HD video monitor or by printing to tape. You can even mix the proxy files with full resolution clips.
• When you are ready to create your HD master, your simply batch re-capture the required clips at full resolution. Frame rates match perfectly, so timecode is always accurate."


If your interested in editing DVCP Pro HD with Premiere natively with out the proprietary hardware I would check out Prospect HD from Cineform :
http://www.cineform.com/products/ProspectHD.htm

or the upcoming DVC Pro HD COdec from Main Concept:

http://www.mainconcept.com/index_flash.shtml

the HVX and an old Apple 17" w/ FCP & Lumiere...Sure they will be some problems, but hey...

Wouldn't it be neat if Canopus just bundled the whole damn thing together at a reasonable price? Kind of like a NX for HVX (or) NX for DVCPROHD package. Canopus real-time editing is huge, but I'm not so sure many people will be willing to shell out another $4000+ (NX + all options minus computer!) after purchasing the HVX.


Apparently, Canopus is working on a new package which will bundle options at a better price. Canopus support said it would be announced soon. Perhaps it's targeted at the the HVX? This is great news for Canopus fans.

If it's as flakey, "full featured" and as "well" supported as all their other products over the past few years, I'll pass. And it uses Premiere... Yuck. I know this is just my OPINION, but why would anyone spend that kind of money on a Premiere editing solution that can't run any more streams in realtime than what a top of the line workstation can do on its own now?

People who say those kind of things About Premire Pro IMHO can not have used the product recently. It has come a long way and has matched FCP in it latest release. What is better tho, and makes it a better value to me is it's integration with other Adobe products such as audition, encore and AE. When you can copy your DVD menus into photoshop and then send them to After effects to make motion menus and then send them back to Encore for finishing, or copy and paste between Premiere and AE you will understand what I mean.

As far as Matrox goes, I have had their RTX100 and Premiere which have been Rock solid for two years now.

People who say those kind of things About Premire Pro IMHO can not have used the product recently. It has come a long way and has matched FCP in it latest release. What is better tho, and makes it a better value to me is it's integration with other Adobe products such as audition, encore and AE. When you can copy your DVD menus into photoshop and then send them to After effects to make motion menus and then send them back to Encore for finishing, or copy and paste between Premiere and AE you will understand what I mean.

As far as Matrox goes, I have had their RTX100 and Premiere which have been Rock solid for two years now.

I know a lot of people really like Premiere Pro. Good for them. I can understand the integration with other Adobe apps being a huge issue... I would like all my apps to integrate with Photoshop, Illustrator and Encore, but this just isn't the case. I'd like to use AfterEffects more than I do, but it doesn't do everything I need -- I use Fusion. I have tried using Premiere Pro with its initial release and it was promptly uninstalled and the disc was thrown back in my video collection box. I tried it again with the last major update and my opinion changed for the better, but it still didn't handle everything I needed. It was too limited right out of the box and by the time I purchased the third party add-ons I needed, I wasn't gaining anything in terms of time or value over my current solution.

As for the RTX100, I owned one briefly not too long after they were released. I returned it... Actually it was rather stable -- better than many of Matrox's previous offerings in the same class over the past couple years. However, it's claims of "real time" were a joke and my PC with Speed Razor and Vegas could run and process more clips in real time on its own than when it was limited to the RTX100 hardware. I realize I'm in the minority here and I run some rather powerful hardware and I'm rarely limited to or working with DV video. But Matrox products have really failed to impress me over the past several years and as far as Adobe software is concerned, Photoshop, and to a lesser degree Encore and perhaps Illustrator are the only programs they offer that truly cross the boundry into serious professional territory. AfterEffects only goes part of the way and only if you buy the Pro version with 16bpc support. OTOH, the complete Adobe Video Collection Pro can be purchased for 1/4th the cost of Fusion or other application on that level.

Just my $0.01 -- agree with me or not, I don't care.

Looks like I'm moving over to Avid for editing and that should help anyway as I have been transitioning more and more of my 3D work from Lightwave to XSI. Fusion will continue to be used for comp work combined with Photoshop. Encore still handles a fair amount of my DVD authoring (probably 75%), but it's braindead MPEG2 encoding is inexcusable and all the work-arounds to get studio quality DVDs out of the app are annoying to say the least. But enough of my rants... To each, his own. If products like the RTX100 and Premiere Pro suit your tastes and your needs, then more power to you.

[To each, his own. If products like the RTX100 and Premiere Pro suit your tastes and your needs, then more power to you.[/QUOTE]

Well said........

I just get tired of the Premiere bashing especially from people who have not used it for awhile. It's hard to remove certain beliefs when someone has had a bad experince. I use Premiere because in my work flow (mostly :30 spot), it works best for me in my experience and it has a pretty bright future with DVCPRO HD.

I think some people are in for a rude awakening. DVCPRO-HD requires tons more space and super fast drives. Yes you can transfer from P2 to your hard drive and edit but performance will not be the same as DV, not close. You need an expensive fibre raid if you want the same performance from HD as you are used to from SD DV. Most people will have to do a low rez offline and re-compose an HD online.



ash =o)

Yes unfortunately I believe a lot of people will get some bad surprises when they try to edit DVCPro HD.
I'm really looking forward to getting this camera but I know I'll have to completely change my editing system.
Up to now I used Premiere with Matrox RTX100. As someone said the RT in RTX100 is not as good as it is made out to be. The Matrox effects are in real time but as soon as you have 2 effects you have to render. And I'm talking about DV.

So on to HD. The Matrox Axio system looks quite impressive but very expensive. They sell a whole package including the workstation so they can then guarantee their RT claims. They work with Premiere. The cost of their system including storage and monitors comes out at around $25,000. Throw in the camera and you have about $35,000 more or less to spend.

But I am seriously considering moving over to the Mac after 20 years of Windows. The new dual processor dual core Quad power Mac looks really suited for the job. Add plenty of memory (buy from third parties, memory from Apple is too expensive), buy a Raid 0 disk array and an AJA card and I think you'll be able to edit HD just like DV now. The cost of that is around $18,000 depending on how much memory, storage etc. you buy. I am also drawn by the Mac's legendary stability. I think for HD that will be important given the strain put on all the computer's resources.

I am justifying the expense by using it for professional purposes. I want to have a format I can deliver directly to television for documentary programmes and DVCPro HD gives me just that. By starting to shoot in HD now I can have a store of HD products ready when serious HD broadcasting starts in Europe. So I am getting a future-proofed (HD) yet currently usable (DVCPro 50) broadcast standard format that I will edit on a Power Mac. All I'll have to do is rent the deck to output the final tape. And of course I love the idea of P2 cards. Going out for a day's shooting with 10 64-GB cards would be great. That day will come.

I think HDV is a good idea for people who can't put up $18,000. The image will not have the colour resolution of HD but if treated rightly in terms of compression and editing it can look great and be of broadcast quality also. And of course the hardware/software required is so much more affordable.

To end on an optimistic note, since prices are always coming down I think it will be possible to acquire the above $18,000 dollar system equivalent for around $8,000 in a few years mainly due to the fall in raid storage costs which I think will fall dramatically as they become more prosumer and as sales increase due to the HD revolution.

Bye for now

Terence

For those who think the requirements for DVCPro HD may be too hefty, look here:

http://www.cineform.com/technology/HDQualityAnalysis10bit/HDQualityAnalysis10bit.htm
http://www.cineform.com/products/ProspectHD.htm

As far as dual core macs go, right now they don't come anywhere close to dual core, dual proccesor Intel and especially AMD machines at almost the same price.
Also if your thinking about buying a mac now I would wait a year until they complete the move to Intel........

Decklink and AJA cards also work with Windows and Premiere.

Interesting thread.

Suppose I was to buy a BRAND SPANKING NEW editing suite just for the HVX (assuming I have a lot of work to edit), if I was to get a P2 capable Mac and/or a Edius and/or a whatever then, what would be the all inclusive barebones price to get into the game, so the speak?

Good question, I hope someone here can answer it because I'd like to know the answer too.

David

As far as dual core macs go, right now they don't come anywhere close to dual core, dual proccesor Intel and especially AMD machines at almost the same price.

"Anywhere close"? Sounds like you're getting a little over zealous now. Where are you getting your information from? Over at AlienWare, yes, I can get a wicked machine with a Dual AMD Opteron™ 280 2.4 GHz 64-Bit w/Dual Core. And over at Apple, I can get, and have a Dual 2.5Ghz Dual Core (Quad Core) G5 Power Mac.

Also if your thinking about buying a mac now I would wait a year until they complete the move to Intel..

Not if you want the fastest Mac available right now, and you're ready to buy.

Good question, I hope someone here can answer it because I'd like to know the answer too.

David
Yeah, me too. After configuring a new PC laptop with a 2.00ghz Pentium M 760, a 1920x1200 screen and 100gb hard disk and loading it up with Vegas 6 and the pre-release of DVFilm Maker and the Avid DV100 codec, I thought I was all set. I tried loading up the HVX footage we shot to edit, and it was pig-dog-slow. Didn't work at all, maybe 1fps.

Then I watched MacMaster Art Aldrich pull out a two-year-old, 1.33ghz Powerbook and proceed to edit that same footage in all its full-screen, full-rez, full-frame-rate glory. Hey, I've never used FCP and I haven't used a Mac since my old 512k "Fat Mac" back in 1985 or whenever, but -- let me just say, it was impressive.

I still have to check out the Canopus booth to see their editing solution in action, but right now the Mac looks like a really, really solid choice. And it doesn't have to be any superstar Mac platform either, like I said this was on a 2-year-old 1.33ghz system. Michael Wong of Apple told me that on a modern Powerbook you should be able to get six streams (SIX STREAMS!) of DVCPRO-HD playing in real time off the internal hard disk of a laptop! On a desktop, maybe 11.

Everyone knows I love Sony's Vegas software, but by my watch they've got 22 days to sort out their support for DV100 or I may just end up jumping ship to Apple (or perhaps Canopus).

Yeah, me too. After configuring a new PC laptop with a 2.00ghz Pentium M 760, a 1920x1200 screen and 100gb hard disk and loading it up with Vegas 6 and the pre-release of DVFilm Maker and the Avid DV100 codec, I thought I was all set. I tried loading up the HVX footage we shot to edit, and it was pig-dog-slow. Didn't work at all, maybe 1fps.

Then I watched MacMaster Art Aldrich pull out a two-year-old, 1.33ghz Powerbook and proceed to edit that same footage in all its full-screen, full-rez, full-frame-rate glory. Hey, I've never used FCP and I haven't used a Mac since my old 512k "Fat Mac" back in 1985 or whenever, but -- let me just say, it was impressive.

I still have to check out the Canopus booth to see their editing solution in action, but right now the Mac looks like a really, really solid choice. And it doesn't have to be any superstar Mac platform either, like I said this was on a 2-year-old 1.33ghz system. Michael Wong of Apple told me that on a modern Powerbook you should be able to get six streams (SIX STREAMS!) of DVCPRO-HD playing in real time off the internal hard disk of a laptop! On a desktop, maybe 11.

Everyone knows I love Sony's Vegas software, but by my watch they've got 22 days to sort out their support for DV100 or I may just end up jumping ship to Apple (or perhaps Canopus).

Thanks Barry, I've been a PC user so far, but it looks like I'll have to learn how to use a Mac if I want to do my film in HD with a couple of HVX's. Well OK then, I'll get a couple of macs a loaded G-5 and a power book for one of the cameras and the FCP software and go from there. "Holy War" is becoming a money pit though.

David

I still have to check out the Canopus booth to see their editing solution in action, ...

it has the best intergration as it keeps xml metadata through the entire editing process, from capture, to edit and back to p2/hd...

edius needs no hardware but it does need a p2 option, codec pack and varicam option that i crowed about being expensive and stupidly sold seperatly...they listened i guess

and announced you can buy all of it for about $500 bucks, plus they throw in some other goodies like sonys xdcam codec

edius is very solid, i have been editing dvcpro50 on my laptop for some time now, very solid, ...

edius doesn not have the industry support of fcp nor the tool set of fcp, but certainly blows away any editor working on a laptop for speed and rt relabilty where i do 60% of my cuts...

i always amaze other editors that i never have to render anything, i just plug into their AJ-HD1200 or AJ-SD900 and print to tape, multi layers of dvcpro 50 with cc transitions fades and slowmotion...i really see why news guys love to use edius its very fast and rt output second to none

folks looking for a full featured editor with full alpha support, prestine 3d effects, nesting, speed ramps, and all things keyframed should look at fcp, edius will not satisfy...edius "supposedly" gets these and other major tools at nab with the version 4 update...but i'm not holding my breath

I am a PC and MAC guy who just did a feature doc in premiere pro... I just upgraded to a Quad G5 FCP system, it is just more solid and standard for HD and the industry in general. Not better... just more standard.

Barry, those numbers cannot be correct... On a quad G5 with a FIBRE RAID, I can get MAX 6-8 streams in 720/24p... most the time I get 4-6 with 1080/60. When using a LaCie serial raid we got 3-5 streams MAX. That is all numbers for DVCproHD which is 8-bit. The key seems to be HDD speed, moreso than processor speed.



ash =o)

Everyone knows I love Sony's Vegas software, but by my watch they've got 22 days to sort out their support for DV100 or I may just end up jumping ship to Apple (or perhaps Canopus).

Barry:

This has to be one of your funniest statements!

Barry:

This has to be one of your funniest statements!

Funny perhaps, but I agree and I'm sure there are others here that feel the same way. I have not updated my Vegas for a while now as I've been holding off. I'm switching to either Avid or Canopus if Sony doesn't get up to speed by the time my HVX200 arrives. I may also consider a new Mac with FCP-HD, depending on which is the best overall solution for the money. My workflow is primarily PC, but I do have a few Macs here as well... I don't care which platform I go with as long as I can create what I want.

FCP is a great tool, but it still has some codec issues as far as rendering DVCPRO HD goes.

http://codecs.onerivermedia.com/

"render with caution"

Saw the Canopus demo at DV Expo today. Quite impressive. It was 10 minutes before the show closed, so there wasn't much time at all, so I basically sat down and said "okay, here's the deal: I love Vegas, I love its workflow, but they aren't gonna help us out here, so I saw the FCP demo and it was impressive, but not Vegas-like. You've got the next 10 minutes, so sell me, a Vegas user, on how Canopus can do everything Vegas does but do it with DV100."

Well, they pretty much did. Pretty impressive demo. They flat-out admitted that Vegas has got them "pwned" as far as audio goes, but for everything else they looked competitive. Can't do AC-3 either, but they said that may be coming. I thought it looked interesting enough to take a demo disc home and I'll try it out. I wasn't disappointed, but it does seem like Vegas is ahead of it in some ways (one crucial way, for what I do: bezier masking! They don't have that yet, but may have it at NAB). And they have much better MXF support than Apple; in fact they have better MXF support than even Avid!

Looks interesting. Looks very interesting. For a "closed shop" it might be exactly what I'm looking for. If I was intending to hire myself out as a freelance editor, I think I'd probably still take this opportunity and leap over to FCP -- FCP's obviously far more entrenched than Edius is. But for a "closed shop", perhaps Edius is everything I need -- maybe not everything I want, but at least everything I need.

The ideal solution would be for Vegas to just announce support is coming. Native MXF Op-Atom support with a DirectX DV100 codec. That would be the ultimate HVX editing platform.

Come on, Vegas... let's hear some good news!

FCP is a great tool, but it still has some codec issues as far as rendering DVCPRO HD goes.

http://codecs.onerivermedia.com/

"render with caution"
From what I understand, there was a codec revision from FCP4.5 to FCP5 -- supposed to have fixed a color-shift issue. Am I right on that? I saw a color shift in a file that someone compressed in FCP4.5 for me, and the Avid codec retained perfect color. Anyone know for sure?

I'm set on the mac with FCP 5, but what hard drives do I need to be able to edit DVCPro HD? Will a FW800 G-Raid work or do I need a scsi or fiber raid?

I'm set on the mac with FCP 5, but what hard drives do I need to be able to edit DVCPro HD? Will a FW800 G-Raid work or do I need a scsi or fiber raid?

You don't need over the top speed to edit DVCPRO HD at all. However, high drive read speed will be needed for multicam editing, multitrack realtime playback, and for playing any uncompressed HD you may end up doing.

My workflow will be to keep my video at DVCPRO HD format, until I do my final export master, which will then be output Uncompressed 8 or 10bit. For that I will be deploying a SATA RAID config since the data rate will be at the max currently possible from a single SATA drive, and diminishes once the drive starts getting filled. SATA RAID blows FW800 away, and is way less expensive than Fibre Channel or SCSI.

Sustained Data Rates Required for HD playback (with 48khz 16bit Audio):

DVCRPROHD 720p-1080i: 6MB/sec - 14.5MB/sec (FW400 would be fine for 720p/24N, but could get ugly with 720p60 and 1080i - FW800 would be fine)

Uncompressed 8bit 720p: 53MB/sec - FW800 would probably start choking on this

Uncompressed 10bit 720p:71MB/sec - RAID time...

Uncompressed 8bit 1080i: 95MB/sec

Uncompressed 10bit 1080i: 126.5MB/sec

As you get towards Uncompressed 10bit 1080i, you'll need something like 3-4 SATA drives in a RAID-0 config.

See my post for more regarding a SATA storage solution here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=392315&postcount=15

Saw the Canopus demo at DV Expo today. Quite impressive. It was 10 minutes before the show closed, so there wasn't much time at all, so I basically sat down and said "okay, here's the deal: I love Vegas, I love its workflow, but they aren't gonna help us out here, so I saw the FCP demo and it was impressive, but not Vegas-like. You've got the next 10 minutes, so sell me, a Vegas user, on how Canopus can do everything Vegas does but do it with DV100."

Well, they pretty much did. Pretty impressive demo. They flat-out admitted that Vegas has got them "pwned" as far as audio goes, but for everything else they looked competitive. Can't do AC-3 either, but they said that may be coming. I thought it looked interesting enough to take a demo disc home and I'll try it out. I wasn't disappointed, but it does seem like Vegas is ahead of it in some ways (one crucial way, for what I do: bezier masking! They don't have that yet, but may have it at NAB). And they have much better MXF support than Apple; in fact they have better MXF support than even Avid!

Looks interesting. Looks very interesting. For a "closed shop" it might be exactly what I'm looking for. If I was intending to hire myself out as a freelance editor, I think I'd probably still take this opportunity and leap over to FCP -- FCP's obviously far more entrenched than Edius is. But for a "closed shop", perhaps Edius is everything I need -- maybe not everything I want, but at least everything I need.

The ideal solution would be for Vegas to just announce support is coming. Native MXF Op-Atom support with a DirectX DV100 codec. That would be the ultimate HVX editing platform.

Come on, Vegas... let's hear some good news!

(Though this question is addressed to Barry Green, I hope that any of you here who read it will feel free to chime in with any helpful advice for me. BTW, I'm not a young guy, I'm a 57-year-old former marine and Viet Nam vet who thanks in part to some health problems from that war is looking at less than full lifetime expectancy, so the time for me to do this film is now. I've written several short stories and have taken many film classes over the years and I've been fascinated with film all my life. I've decided that it is time to stop just writing stories and film one, so I wrote "Holy War" so that I could give it my best shot. You can read the short story the script is based on by clicking on this link to my web site at www.holywar2.com.)

Barry, I've read your book and watched your DVD on filming with my two DVX100A's and found it very informative and full of useful tips. Thank you for that fine book and DVD, it helped me a lot. After shooting some of my first film "Holy War" I found that I still had a lot to learn, and have come to the conclusion that I needed a better script than the one I wrote, and I'm getting some help from a script doctor/writer in the LA area on fixing the script to put it into shooting shape. (Though I wrote the script with Movie Magic Screenwriter, it only puts out what you put in to it, and I didn't put enough into it to film the story as is.) I also realized that trying to follow the Kevin Smith plan for my first movie will not work, he had guys that were film/theater majors and were into making movies for "Clerks" and most of my friends are not that dedicated, interested and educated in film. So my initial experience turned into a lesson in herding cats, it was impossible to get them to all set aside part of their lives to donate time for my film on the same days and times. So I put a second on my house and raised more money to pay for semi pro actors, film/theater students at a couple of the local colleges in Reno, as well as more money for better equipment. (I can't pay SAG wages, but I can put up a few hundred or more for the actors that take the roles. It will be OK money for students who need it and want to act with some good indie film equipment.) This has led me to decide to buy a couple of the HVX200 cameras because I want to take the best shot I can at this, and the HVX looks like the best way to go for me and my current budget. I have the lights, mics and much of the other equipment I'll need for this film, but my current computer and the Premier pro suite is not up to the task of editing the output from the HVX200 DVCPRO HD in 1080i. So I've decided to get a couple of new computers, a laptop to use as the main recording medium for one camera, and a firestore type device for the second camera as well as a monster computer for the editing of the raw footage at home in my studio. (OK spare bedroom, but its what I have.)

This leads me to a question that you probably haven't had have to deal with before, but what software editing platform would you recommend for someone who is just getting into the film biz? Though I'll have some help from some of my buddies at TMCC/UNR who are much younger than I am and more into computers etc than I am, I still want something that is not to hard for an old guy like me to learn on. Right now it looks like the apple computers, the G5 quad and a power book and the FCP software is the best way to go for me. I'm not shooting for the ability to make a perfect master tape suitable for rendering into film, I don't have enough money for that nor do I have the skills needed to get to that level. I'm shooting for a good enough filming of the story, a computer/software program to edit it on and burn it to a DVD, and then submitting it to film festivals, or possibly some sort of Internet venue. If it gets picked up there, then I can work with interested parties with deep enough pockets to turn the film into well, film. If not, I gave it my best shot and I can live with that. What I can't live with is never trying esp. considering where my life is now. So any advice you can give me will be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

David

Well David, -- well, wow. I wish you all the best. That's sad to hear that you may not have as much time as you should, and I hope you can accomplish what you set out to do.

First question is: do you really need an HVX, much less two of them? If your primary distribution goal is DVD, a DVX can handle that superbly, and it would be much, much less expensive, and the editing platforms would be less expensive, and the options for editing are much more wide open.

For a potential film transfer or a high-def release, obviously the HVX would be much better -- I'm just thinking that if money's tight enough that you're borrowing against your house to do this, you may want to consider just using the DVX100As, since you already have them and can already edit the footage. DVXes make excellent, excellent DVDs. The HVX could make 'em somewhat better, but if I was the one doing the budget for you, I'd have to wonder whether the expense of the HVXes plus new computers plus new software would all add up to the best place to put the money you have. I'm not saying the HVX won't be better, as I'm sure it will -- but will it be $20,000 or $25,000 better? Only you can answer that, but I would wonder. There've been a few DVX documentaries blown up to film, like Murderball, so it's not unheard of. And I'm not trying to talk you out of the HVX, I'm just saying that -- well, it's amazing how many things there are to pay for when making a film, so careful budgetary management will be required, and unless you have some specific reason as to why the HVX is worth spending the dough on (when you already have two DVX100A's), then I would say you should probably examine your reasoning most carefully. If you stayed on the DVX, you could continue to use your same editing software, etc.

A great script doctor is a good idea, hopefully you have a great one (there are a lot out there who aren't!) For script evaluation I recommend Craig Kellem of www.hollywoodscript.com, he's talented and very experienced and does a great job at a great rate. Not a script Doctor, per se, but someone who knows stories inside and out, an ex-ICM agent, the producer of The Rutles movie, etc -- he's been around and he understands scripts.

If you decide that you do want to go the HVX route, and you're looking at new editing computers, I'd have to say that the Mac is looking pretty darn interesting. Canopus may (or may not) prove to be a more compatible solution for my style of editing, but recognize that I'm not out there trying to hire myself out to get jobs as an editor. For someone who may do that, I think FCP is probably the much wiser choice, as it enjoys substantially wider market penetration in production houses than Canopus or Vegas likely ever will.

"The ideal solution would be for Vegas to just announce support is coming. Native MXF Op-Atom support with a DirectX DV100 codec. That would be the ultimate HVX editing platform."

have you put in a request or asked sony if they plan to add native DVCproHD or a DirectX 100 codec support in Vegas ?

i did ask them at NAB and at that time they said they had not received any request for it .. so start asking them ... in general for DvcProHd there has been little native support for it in NLE's ...maybe that will change in 2006 ?

Well David, -- well, wow. I wish you all the best. That's sad to hear that you may not have as much time as you should, and I hope you can accomplish what you set out to do.

First question is: do you really need an HVX, much less two of them? If your primary distribution goal is DVD, a DVX can handle that superbly, and it would be much, much less expensive, and the editing platforms would be less expensive, and the options for editing are much more wide open.

For a potential film transfer or a high-def release, obviously the HVX would be much better -- I'm just thinking that if money's tight enough that you're borrowing against your house to do this, you may want to consider just using the DVX100As, since you already have them and can already edit the footage. DVXes make excellent, excellent DVDs. The HVX could make 'em somewhat better, but if I was the one doing the budget for you, I'd have to wonder whether the expense of the HVXes plus new computers plus new software would all add up to the best place to put the money you have. I'm not saying the HVX won't be better, as I'm sure it will -- but will it be $20,000 or $25,000 better? Only you can answer that, but I would wonder. There've been a few DVX documentaries blown up to film, like Murderball, so it's not unheard of. And I'm not trying to talk you out of the HVX, I'm just saying that -- well, it's amazing how many things there are to pay for when making a film, so careful budgetary management will be required, and unless you have some specific reason as to why the HVX is worth spending the dough on (when you already have two DVX100A's), then I would say you should probably examine your reasoning most carefully. If you stayed on the DVX, you could continue to use your same editing software, etc.

A great script doctor is a good idea, hopefully you have a great one (there are a lot out there who aren't!) For script evaluation I recommend Craig Kellem of www.hollywoodscript.com, he's talented and very experienced and does a great job at a great rate. Not a script Doctor, per se, but someone who knows stories inside and out, an ex-ICM agent, the producer of The Rutles movie, etc -- he's been around and he understands scripts.

If you decide that you do want to go the HVX route, and you're looking at new editing computers, I'd have to say that the Mac is looking pretty darn interesting. Canopus may (or may not) prove to be a more compatible solution for my style of editing, but recognize that I'm not out there trying to hire myself out to get jobs as an editor. For someone who may do that, I think FCP is probably the much wiser choice, as it enjoys substantially wider market penetration in production houses than Canopus or Vegas likely ever will.

Thanks for the input Barry. I got much the same advice from Shawn who is doing the re-write of the script. His recommendation is that I rent an HVX and see if I like it, and I may do that if they are available well before my planned shooting schedule in June. He also pointed out that the Cohen bros among others use FCP so it looks like it may be the best way for me to go. I do hope to do a good enough job that the film is picked up by a distributor. The story is the first of a trilogy, and I'm planning to shoot all three with the HVX if Holy War is successful. There have been so many stories lately that are re treads of other movies or TV shows, and what I write is very well, unique, so hopefully that will work in my favor.

As for the DVX's I have, though I did buy and install the 16X9 AG-LA7200G lens for them, they have limitations on use. They are harder to focus, have no auto stabilization available and though I don't use it, no auto focus. For moving shots they have limitations and are harder to use that the HVX should be. For what I'm trying to do I think the HVX will be a better platform, and I won't have to move up again camera wise if the first film is successful. Also the workflow should be a bit easier if everything is tape less. Having said that I'll be watching what you and others report on the HVX and will hold off until I see how they match up to the hype.

As for taking out the second, well the truth is that with over 25 years left on my first, I'll never live long enough to pay it off and be able to retire, so this is my best shot to do both. My best asset is my creative mind and I need to put it to my best use while I can still use it. Thank you for your reply, and I look forward to reading what you have to say about the HVX and the software and hardware to make it fly.

David

From what I understand, there was a codec revision from FCP4.5 to FCP5 -- supposed to have fixed a color-shift issue. Am I right on that? I saw a color shift in a file that someone compressed in FCP4.5 for me, and the Avid codec retained perfect color. Anyone know for sure?

It's still got issues. I think the aliasing I saw on the "Tosh" website composite pic was particularly due to this:

Captured to FCP DVCPRO HD
rendered as a second pass of compression to create the composite
Color filtering in QT codec still screwed up

That pic had obvious blurring applied to the edges (around the hair of the guy and girl) in order to make it look better.

One area where DVCPRO HD really sucked, was in applying a long (4-5) second fade to black on a high contrast scene that had fog and shafts of light. (Think dark Bladerunner stuff) Banding like a mofo. I know this is most likely an issue with 8 bit codecs in general, but it was just plain awful rendered in DVCPRO HD. You either have to apply some dithering noise to the transition or import the clip into After Effects or Motion and render it in a 10 bit codec.

One area where DVCPRO HD really sucked... it was just plain awful rendered in DVCPRO HD. You either have to apply some dithering noise to the transition or import the clip into After Effects or Motion and render it in a 10 bit codec.

Shouldn't one be mastering to Uncompressed 10-bit in the first place? I think yes.

Shouldn't one be mastering to Uncompressed 10-bit in the first place? I think yes.

Sure, but what deck are you going to output to? D5? HDCAM SR? At some point you have to reintroduce compression unless you can output to a very expensive tape deck.

Sure, but what deck are you going to output to? D5? HDCAM SR? At some point you have to reintroduce compression unless you can output to a very expensive tape deck.

Both of those sound great to me. However, most likely by the time it hits any distribution format, it won't look nearly as good as your uncompressed master, or even a DVCPROHD master, unless you're going film out. Now let's think of how it'll look on someone's Tivo. :)

have you put in a request or asked sony if they plan to add native DVCproHD or a DirectX 100 codec support in Vegas ?
Oh heavens yes. Several threads on the official Sony Vegas forum, as well as on DVXUser, direct contact with them at trade shows, and even a conference call with some Vegas employees. They're well aware that we want it.

in general for DvcProHd there has been little native support for it in NLE's ...maybe that will change in 2006 ?
The "big two", Avid and FCP, have it already and have had it for a while. Canoups has full support. Liquid is expected to support it -- they already have MXF support, it's probably just a matter of integrating a DV100 codec and Avid happens to make one and coincidentally they just bought Pinnacle, so it seems likely that Pinnacle/Avid Liquid will support it.

The only major-market-share players that don't have native support yet are Premiere and Vegas. Rumors abound that Premiere Pro 2.0 will have support. Haven't heard any encouraging rumors about Vegas yet.

Yes its a sad day for Vegas. Barry Green is dropping it as his NLE, and moving out of Vegas Nevada in disgust to make a point. No more Vegas love.

:(

Has anyone tried the Edius Demo from Canopus? I cant get it to even run.

Sure, but what deck are you going to output to? D5? HDCAM SR? At some point you have to reintroduce compression unless you can output to a very expensive tape deck.

Here is an interesting workflow that many of us may be following in the near future and even tho Preimere Pro will have a DVCPRO HD codec I think this may be better....

Article:

http://www.videosystems.com/mag/video_apartment_musician_laptop/

Final Video:

http://www.formikafilms.com/cactusflower/JG480p.html

FCP is a great tool, but it still has some codec issues as far as rendering DVCPRO HD goes.

http://codecs.onerivermedia.com/

"render with caution"

This is VERY VERY worrying... Specially on the dv50 file... SO, basically, if I render a clip with effects for 10x, it gets white???? No , thank you!

The dvcprohd didn't show much trouble, tough.

So there really is a generational loss if you apply Effects and transitions to a clip in FCP. I always felt that, after applying and effect on a certain clip, it got worse (not very noticeable, but you could see a slight difference in quality).
Any way to get over this? Will deleting the preview files save us from this generational loss? How to avoid it without having to recapture everything? Not using uncompressed, of course...