I am used to using shotgun mics and regular mic set-ups but I am a little confused with wireless set-ups. I am going to need one for weddings and events, especially for vows, etc. What do I need? Can I pick up a ebay set for $150-200? Like this one? http://cgi.ebay.com/UHF-Wireless-Lapel-Microphone-System-New_W0QQitemZ7361819286QQcategoryZ100230QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Or do I need something else to actually record audio. I am in the dark and any help would be greatly appreciated.

thanks
jamie

You need a system with a portable receiver. Something that could be attached to the camera if you're doing weddings and the like. Check out Audio Technica, Sennheiser, Azden 500, Lectrosonics (money money). You want something that will not only be portable and camera attachable but something that doesn't need to be plugged in.
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Don

Jamie, look at the thread titled Mic's? started by Justin Lang. Lotta good info there on wireless.

Also, do a search for iRiver in this forum and read up on comments about using that type of audio recorder. Briefly, the iRiver is one of those cigarette lighter size & shaped MP3 players that's also an audio recorder. Hook up a Giant Squid (also discussed in this forum) lav mike to it, and for about a total of $100, you've got a good, some say great, audio recording system. For the price of one good UHF wireless transmitter & receiver, you can get 4 or 5 of these.

I am liking the iRiver idea. I assume you would have the groom wear the mic and have the iRiver in his pocket or something like that? I am not at all worried about syncing up the audio to video in post, if that matters at all.

If you are looking for a wireless system I would suggest going with a UHF system. Personally I like lectrosonics, but you are going to pay well over $1000.00 (even if used). I have heard good things about Azden and Senheiser as well, but again, you are going to pay more than you were talking about. I would giver serious consideration to the iRiver/Giant Squib set-up. You might be able to get one for the groom and one for the minister and still be within your budget. Good luck! Isn't it fun buying new toys?

haha...fun when it's on the 'cheaper' end. Yet nothing is cheap in this business. haha

I would like to avoice wireless if possible. I would like to know if this iRiver system isn't cumbersome to have in a pocket or something like that. Just trying to be as less obtrusive as possible, without sacrificing quality.

I don't know anything about iRiver, but I use Olympus digital voice recorders. You can read more about my experiences with them in the other thread entitled "Mic's".

I would like to know if this iRiver system isn't cumbersome to have in a pocket or something like that. Just trying to be as less obtrusive as possible, without sacrificing quality.

Whether using a wireless transmitter or an iRiver, you'll still have a lav mic with a wire out going somewhere. In either case, the "somewhere" isn't obtrusive. The iRiver is maybe slightly larger than a throw-away plastic cigarette lighter; a wireless transmitter is about the size of a pack of cigarettes or a smaller, depending on brand.

I tried an iRiver for the first time a couple weekends ago at a rehearsal. The minister clipped the lav to his tie and dropped the iRiver in his shirt pocket. Wasn't even noticeable. When I listened to the audio later that evening, I was impressed. Not as good as with a wired XLR system, but equal to or better than wireless, IMHO.

Depending on the bitrate you set it at, a 500mb iRiver can record several hours of audio. If you do a lot of record & stndby with the camera, syncing can be tedious. If you let the camera roll continuously, syncing in post is a breeze.

Thanks. I think I am going to go with a lav mic and a iRiver. Thanks for your help.

Would any lapel/lav mic work with the iRiver? What would you guys recommend?

thanks

I cannot recommend the Giant Squid lavs enthusiastically enough. Google "Giant Squid Audio Labs" and hook yourself up with the sweetest, full sounding lav you will find for the money. These things blew away my audio technicas big time. You'll want the iRiver Mono Omnidirectional.

Would any lapel/lav mic work with the iRiver?

I'm not an expert on the iRiver by any means -- all I know is what I've read plus a bit of my own experience.

Apparently the mic jack input for the iRivers is not wired in the standard way, so while any mic should work, all won't necessarily work to peak performance. That's where the Giant Squid mic comes in -- there's a model specifically wired for the iRiver.

Personal experience: I first used the lav mic that came with a Sony wireless I have. I selected the Line In setting as recommended in other posts here about the iRiver, and got essentially no recording. I switched to External Mic and did get a good recording, but I had to crank the volume up to max. Also, there was just a bit of noticeable hiss in the background.

A few days later my Giant Squid arrived. It worked perfectly using the Line In setting and the volume at 45 (as recommended). There is no hiss.

There are all sorts of models of the iRiver, and I have no idea if all are created equal as far as recording ability. The ones most mentioned in this forum are the 795 and the 895. As near as I can tell, the main difference is that the 795 has the headphone and mic jacks side by side at the end of the unit; while the 895 (the one I bought) has the headphone jack at the end, and the mic jack on the side. Both are 500mb and both work with either a PC or Mac.

I bought mine on eBay from the guy who advertises same day shipping. It's true, I bought it on a Monday afternoon and it was in my mailbox Wed. morning. I just looked and apparently he's sold out of the 895s and currently has only a couple 795s left. Mine is a refurb, but except for the plain brown box it came in, everything was sealed and looked brand new. Works perfectly so far.

I've been working with wireless mic systems for some 20 years. Instead of the word "wireless', think more in terms of "radio". A wireless mic system broadcasts on a radio frequency range that is freely available to anyone without license. The frequency range is freely available without license, which means low transmitting power as well as the risk someone else could be using the same frequency with their wireless mic system. Then there are possible interferences from cell phones, or electric motors used to drive heating/airconditioning systems. Primrily because of the limited transmission power any one of these things could interfere with yur mic system. And, ther is always the possibility a broadcast television station may be using a frequency also used by your mic system. However, if one does his homework he can identify the frequencies used in a particular geographic area and virtually eliminate any interference problems. I have worked on stage shows in metro areas where 20 or more wireless microphones were in use without so much as a hiccup.

Two factors make or break success with wireless systems for the event videographer. Identify the problem frequencies in a given area, and avoid them. Visit any reputable wireless mic manufacturer's web site and do a search in the support section for anything relating to wireless mic use. Invest in the best systems you can afford. Those two factors alone will eliminate most of the scares I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

That said, stand alone digital recorders are wonderful. I use an iRiver as well as four wireless mics, mainly due to Daniel Runyon's investigative work. Depending on the situation, one system will out perform the other.

Be prepared to invest a lot of time learning how to capture good audio. It is much more difficult than video in event situations.

An Iriver looks like an interesting device, but you don't know what you are getting until the day is over. Scary.

There is no substitute for a good wireless system. I NEVER have to worry about my Lectrosonics wireless lav. Lectrosonics sold me the unit that is out of the frequency bands of Hi-Def television broadcasts in my region (Hawaii). I have never had hiss or noticeable dropouts in my recordings. The only thing I ever deal with now is making sure my camera has the right input sensitivity. The auto-gain on-cam is okay, but sometimes I like to ride the input gain knob in special circumstances.

You have spent several thousand dollars on cameras...less than $1500 on a mic system that solves all your problems is not too much to ask. You will pay for it one way or another (dramatic music crescendo)! Audio is half the job of a videographer, maybe even more. Don't get a $200 mic system. The cheapest I would go under any circumstances is a Sennheiser or Samson UHF system which run about $5-600. An Iriver as a backup seems like a good idea.

[QUOTE=Marcus Marchesseault]An Iriver looks like an interesting device, but you don't know what you are getting until the day is over. Scary.

There is no substitute for a good wireless system. I NEVER have to worry about my Lectrosonics wireless lav. Lectrosonics sold me the unit that is out of the frequency bands of Hi-Def television broadcasts in my region (Hawaii). I have never had hiss or noticeable dropouts in my recordings. The only thing I ever deal with now is making sure my camera has the right input sensitivity. The auto-gain on-cam is okay, but sometimes I like to ride the input gain knob in special circumstances.

Hi Marcus,

Are you based on Oahu? ( I'm on Maui )
I'm also looking at getting a Lectrosonics wireless setup to replace my aging Samsons. Could you tell me which Lectrosonics wireless setup you bought and the frequency bands to use in Hawaii?


Thanks,
Todd
p.s. the iRivers are great units to use as backup (I have 4 of them)

"the iRivers are great units to use as backup (I have 4 of them)"

Aah! Four backups? Jeez, either you have serious problems with your primaries, or I need to start making more money so I can afford more backups! :)

I'm on Oahu and have done about two hundred weddings and event videos. Mostly, I shoot, but sometimes edit. I haven't been persuing weddings much lately and have been doing a few commercial jobs. I've also been working on some small independant shorts with students, etc. to improve my lighting and on-set skills. I actually did a wedding over on Maui in July for a friend of mine on his FX1 and it turned out well. It was a beautiful location up in Kula at a flower garden. Great views of central Maui and the temperature is perfect.

For the Lectrosonics, you may only be able to get those from a dealer. They seem (at least in '99) to like to stick with local dealers. My dealer was a guy at his house. The key thing for Oahu at the time was "Block 29". That best avoided the HD broadcast frequencies that share the UHF band. There were some other blocks that were good, but 29 seemed the best from their chart at the time. My model is the UM100 transmitter and UCR100 receiver. It is not a diversity system, but that doesn't matter. It is perfect in any church I have worked.

I looked up the frequency charts for Maui, and it looks like Blocks 24, 25, and 26 are totally free of interfering stations and 27, 28, and 29 only have one station in each block range. Lectrosonics "blocks" are broken up into 4 chunks each, so each transmitter should easily be able to get around one or two stations in it's block by changing frequencies. There are lots of frequencies available for selection on the unit by a small dial. In fact, for Maui it looks like you could probably get away with just about any block since there is no more than one nearby station in any of the blocks.

Call Lectrosonics for prices, and if you are scared off you are probably safe with any frequency sold on ebay. They still sell for a high percentage of their original price, but they are very rugged so I wouldn't worry too much. I am 100% sure that the metal cases of my system can be run over by a car without bending (not that I would try). You say you are replacing aging Samsons, I don't ever expect to replace my Lectrosonics unless they are stolen or dropped in the ocean. If I were to need a replacement and didn't have the money, I would consider a Sennheiser, but they really aren't that much cheaper.

Marcus

The best way to get good sound is by placing the mic as close to the source of the sound as possible. Event video will always have a challenge regarding audio because of the lack of structure inherent to live events. A lot of people will use a wireless lav mic with a shotgun. Others use camera mounted dual wireless system, sometimes in tandem with a shotgun. Both of these approaches can be made to get results, but I have always had a problem with them.

My approach has been to use four wireless mics with an audio mixer, sometimes with an iriver backup. The entire system is baded upon flexibility.

My mic systems are all NADY mfg. As described below, my total mic investment, including 500' of XLR cable, is under $1200.00. I did my homework and identified unused frequencies in my local area before ordering the systems. Were I in a metro area instead of a rural area I would have chosen tunable receivers with eight or more frequencies for each receiver, with an invenstment increase of $1500.00. Two UHF and Two VHF receivers are in a roadcase that sits on an Ultimate light stand that can be extended to 8'. One of the keys to good RF (radio frequency) reception is to insure line of sight with no physical obtructions between transmitter and receiver. All receivers have both hand mic and lapel mic transmitters. The lapel mic receivers can take either mic, instrument, or line level inputs. I have a variety of lapel microphones to attach to the transmitters. Two of the hand mic transmitters can be attached to any XLR source.

All four mic systems feed into a 4 mic, 4 line audio mixer made by Berringer. I have individual control over each mic via the mixer, and bring each or all into the mix as needed. The main outs of the mixer feed into my camera. Secondary outs can be sent to a PA system or audio recorder as needed.

As you can imagine, all this gear demands one camera be mounted on a tripod. Set-up time is significantly increased. I allow two hours just to get ready for a ceremony. That is before my half hour of site shots and guest arrivals.

Microphone assignment is usually as follows:
Ch 1: Officiate.
Ch 2: Groom.
Ch 3: Family/friend commentary during ceremony, or open for house ambient sound.
Ch 4: Musicians or ambient house audio, whichever seems more appropriate.

The iRiver back-up is usually placed in the vicinity of the ceremony site and connected to a Shure condenser lapel mic which is hidden in the decoration.
I add a mini-plug mono to stereo adapter on the iRiver to resolve the input confusion that sometimes occurs. So far, no issues.

For iRiver users, the following information may be useful. I copied it from a post on another forum, then edited the information to bare bones for quick review. I never thought I would be adding it to a post of my own, and didn't have the sense to include the author's name. My sincere apologies to the author:

***SETTINGS***

(NEW) Upon initial use, hold down the record button (far right of top three buttons) until you get the 4 selections to choose from (Mp3-Radio-Voice-Line in). Select "Line In"

Timer (manual section 5-17)

- Sleep power off - OFF / Beep OFF
- Stop Power off - 60 min

Control - (manual section 5-22)

- Line in recording mode:
Mono
44.1KHz
160 Kbps

Stereo
44.1 KHz
320 Kbps

- Line In Rec Volume: 45 (Giant Squid Mic) 50 (MT830 mic) 50-55 (Azden 503)

- Line In Auto Sync: OFF

- Line In / Ext Mic: EXT MIC

***SETUP***

1. Connect mic to line-in jack
2. Set line in rec mode as above (SETTINGS)
3. Press and HOLD "Mode/Rec" button
4. Select Line-In mode
5. Press "Nav/Menu" button to go to PAUSED record mode
6. Press REC
7. Engage the LOCK!

***STOPPING***

1. Unlock
2. Press "Mode/Rec" button
3. Press and HOLD the STOP button

Expected record times based on 512 Mb model (256 will be half...1Gb will be double the record time below)
In mono:
44hz 32kbps = 35 hours: 31 minutes
" " 40kbps = 28 Hours: 25 minutes
" "" 48kbps = 23 hours: 21 minutes
" " 56kbps = 20 hours: 18 minutes
" " 64kbps = 17 hours: 45 minutes
" " 80kbps = 14 hours: 12 minutes
" " 96kbps = 11 hours: 50 minutes
" " 112kbps = 10 hours: 09 minutes
" " 128kbps = 8 hours: 52 minutes
" " 160kbps = 7 hours: 06 minutes

In Stereo:
44hz 64kbps = 17 hours: 45 minutes
" " 80kbps = 14 Hours: 12 minutes
" "" 96kbps = 11 hours: 50 minutes
" " 112kbps = 10 hours: 09 minutes
" " 128kbps = 8 hours: 52 minutes
" " 160kbps = 7 hours: 06 minutes
" " 192kbps = 5 hours: 55 minutes
" " 224kbps = 5 hours: 05 minutes
" " 256kbps = 4 hours: 26 minutes
" " 320kbps = 3 hours: 33 minutes

Make an adapter to for mono mic to the iRiver, as the iRiver records the right channel as the left when in mono.

Radioshack part and a stereo cable from the dollar store.
• Cut the cable leaving about 4" of wire from the male mini.
• Strip 1/4" of the outer plastic case,exposing the 2 wire and shielding
• Use ohm meter, identify the "ring" lead.
• Cut the OTHER wire short.
• Using the meter identify the sleeve of the inline jack.
• Make sure you have the collar on the wire before soldering.
• Solder the shield from the stereo cable to the sleeve terminal of the jack.
• Solder the "ring"lead of the cable to the other terminal of the jack.
• Crimp the cable holder on the jack around the outer case of the wire.
• Make sure no wires are exposed to touch the others.
• Done"

Thanks for the Iriver how-to. Thanks also to the original author. I think I'm going to look into these further, even though I love my Lectrosonics. Redundancy is never a bad idea.

thanks for the info

Just a personal opinion, but I can't imagine relying on a stand alone, unmonitored audio recorder for an event like a wedding. I would never use such a device in a groom's pocket for example.

There is no substitute for a quality UHF multi-channel wireless system. We've been using Samson UM32s for years with no issues. Wearing headphones, you can monitor and control levels for every word.
Bob

I've read the posts about the iRiver and some posters are quite adamant about having that "live" audio via wireless. The concern being that you want to able to monitor the audio. Fair enough. The immediacy of monitoring and tweaking audio has merits.

But if you're $1500 wireless lav system goes down what are you going to do? Interrupt the service so that you can replace the transmitter?

Of course not. If you have experience with the iRiver's it would be reasonable to assume that you'll know what you're going to get from the audio barring a failure. Additionally I'd use a shotgun mic as a backup in case this did happen. If there's a failure? Either way you're going to know. If not now, then when you get back to the editing suite and access the audio files. Either way there's not a lot you can do about it while the service is going.

That and you only spent $150 for a piece of equipment that you won't feel too bad about having been stolen or broken or fail.

Just my two cents and intended with respect to all who have posted.

sincerely,


ian

Ian,
I'd sleep a lot better with a $1500 wireless than a $150 iRiver in my bag. Granted, if either option fails, you're in deep ---- but I'd still rather monitor audio. How does an iRiver user compensate for a bride who barely whispers her vows?
Bob

If you have $1500 to spend go for it but personally i can’t see many people buying a wireless lapel for that kind of money.

I have been using wireless mic devices for over 10 years now.
First started with something cheap (bought in Singapore), then I bought a Samson VM1/VT3L combination which works 60% of the time without freaking out and dropping the signal.
I now bought an ENG 100 from Senheiser. Finally something you turn on and that works reliable and has a good signal-to-noise. The price it goes from around $700. It's worth every penny, if you had the experience of dropping mic's at those crucial moments.

My advice if you go wireless: buy something good or don't do it at all.