Mostly just curious, but how much would it cost for a Mac editing computer?

All I want it to do is edit video on FCP. Big hard drive. I wouldn't want to spend much money on high end CPU. Just something to get the job done.

And monitors, do Macs use the same monitors as PCs? I'm thinking No. What would they cost?

Thanks.

You can use any monitor you want. My wife edits on her 15" iMac G4, 800mHz with 1gig Ram, Superdrive (built-in DVD burner). Total cost of the system $1,500 (bought slightly used). FCP runs $1,000 unless you qualify for an educational discount. The 17" iMac would run about $2,000 new, $1,700 used. The limitation to the iMac is you can't add a second monitor.

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/92/wo/Sq4mSQ9TMBJY3lCuLlB2PNw5yqo/0.3.0.3.27.21.0.1.3.1.3.1.1.0?125,39

The next step up is the G4 PowerMac (tower). They are all Dual Processor now and start at $1,700 (monitor extra).

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/92/wo/Sq4mSQ9TMBJY3lCuLlB2PNw5yqo/0.3.0.3.27.37.1.0.1.3.1.3.1.1.0?108,52

If you can wait, prices will drop after MacWorld in early January. It may take up to 3or 4 weeks afterwards, it just depends on what is announced. I bought mine after MacWorld several years ago and saved $500 by waiting 3 weeks.

Jeff

Dylan,
Just to clarify Jeff's remark, the current desktop Macs have two monitor connectors. One is Apple's proprietary ADC connector which handles power, USB and video signals to an Apple LCD monitor. The other is a more conventional SVGA connector. So, using a non-Apple monitor you would use the latter connection.

If you don't really need a 2nd monitor for editing you can get by with a 17" iMac and an external Firewire drive.

You should also shop around over at www.PowerMax.com . They sell alot of reconditioned Macs. (I just traded my old PowerBook in with them.) They're good people who stand by what they sell. You might find a good deal on a dual 1Gig.

Hmm.. They sure are a bit more expensive than PCs, huh?

How does the CPU speed equate to PCs? Do I need a dual processor? I hear Macs need more ram than PCs do as well.

Frankly, yes they are a bit more expensive. But, in my opinion, they are worth it for video work and for other creative endeavors as well.

The cpu speed ratings are really not easily compared. The PowerPC/G4 is a RISC processor that uses a completely different architecture and instruction set than the Intel/AMD chips. When Apple or related testers compare the G4 they often user PhotoShop as a key speed indicator. This is not really fair since the G4 has a special graphics subsystem, known as Altivec, that gooses-up PhotoShop performance. But, all things considered, you can buy a faster PC today for less money than the fastest Mac.

But that doesn't really tell much of the whole story. The Mac is simply a much better video editing platform than Windows. Application management is -much- simpler. Drive management is -much- simpler, particularly with inexpensive Firewire drives being so available. Firewire is built-in to the system, as is USB. (As I write this I'm editing a short piece off of a 40Gb Firewire drive with Final Cut Pro on a PowerBook G4.) With the introduction of OS-X, a BSD Unix derivative, the platform's become even better and quite comparable to facilities that were only available on SGI workstations just a few years ago.

Re: processors, all of the desktop Power Macs now feature dual processors, with the highest-end currently being the dual 1.25GHz G4.

Macs do not really need more RAM than Windows PC's. In fact, I'd guess the opposite to be true. But with memory relatively inexpensive there's little reason to skimp. 512Mb is probably the smallest practical memory size for video work.

I don't mean to send you into financial penury, but those are my experiences and observations. (And, yes, I still have a Dell Precision Workstation and a Dell Inspirion notebook running Windows 2000 SP2.)

I've been using Macs in a production environment since '93. I simply don't have the problems by PC friends (editors) have. If I couldn't capture footage, I would be out of business. I edit all my work and some of my clients work (some clients have me use their equipment) on a G4 450 dual processor. The speed is not a factor for me. Maybe if I did 3D animation I would feel differently. In ten years of solid Mac work I've never had a problem like yours (I'm not saying Macs don't break).

All of Apple's current line up of G4 PowerMacs are dual processors. I think a lot of Mac users load up on ram because it the cheapest thing you can do to speed up you computer. I use 2 gigs of ram in mine. Until recently PCs (after Windows 98) couldn't use more than 256 megs of ram.

Jeff

Ive edited both on high end PC (Intergraph TDZ's with Softimage|DS), Sony Editstations and normal "consumer" PC's with Premiere. And after getting to work with Final Cut on a G4 at work, i decided to go with the Apple platform when it was time for me to get a edit suit at home.

I've never ever regretted that decision. Just make sure you run OSX 10.2 or later. OS 9 can be extension hell if you are not careful :)

Thanks guys. It's going to be a serious consideration for me when it comes time for a new computer. The PC I edit on now is only about 3 months old, so I can't quite justify replacing it yet.

How much do Mac Firewire hard drives sell for (compared to PC ones)?

Firewire drives are non-denominational <g>. They'll work with either platform, although few PC's are built with Firewire.

Prices range depending on capacity and other specs. Take a look at www.Wiebetech.com as an example.

OK, here's a possibly dumb follow up question....
If I have a Firewire drive, can I use it on a PC, and then plug it into a Mac and have it work? For say transfering music or graphics files. Assuming a PC photoshop file would transfer to/and be usable on, a Mac.

Not a dumb question at all. You'll need to use a utility such as MacDrive5 (by MediaFour) for Windows (which WiebeTech now includes free with drive purchases) to enable your PC to recognize your Mac-formatted hard drive. I would start with a Mac-formatted drive.

(Caveat: I've not personally performed this maneuver.)

I am currently in the market for a new Mac as well. I am set on a G4 but am wondering about the options that come with it. Is it worth paying the xtra $$'S to get the NVIDIA card included in the MAc G4 system? Are there better options/deals that one could invest in?

I am told (by gamers) that it's worth the extra expense if you like to play 3D games on your computer. Otherwise go with the standard graphics adapter. Not being a computer game player myself I couldn't say.

It will not benefit your video editing in any way. The standard card displays more than enough frames per second for video editing. If you have extra money I would get as much ram as possible. It is fairly cheap right now and that will help insure thing run smoothly in your multi-tasking. Even the standard card will run two monitors for and extended desktop.

Jeff

Jeff's right: spend the extra $ on memory. Well worth it. Other ideas:

- A good external FireWire drive
- A Contour ShuttlePRO. http://www.contouravs.com/cav_shuttlepro_info.html. It's a handy little gizmo for Final Cut Pro.

This is a continuation of an earlier posting I made on this subject. I'm negotiating with my IT people and the budget for a machine on which I can edit (minimal special effects, but not a simple project), and burn to DVD. The G4 route seems to be squeezing the budget a bit hard: a base level G4 is possible, but no superdrive, etc. An alternative is an iMac 17", which does come with the superdrive.

Here are my questions, if anyone has any thoughts & the time to share thema;

1) Other than the expandability, the big difference between these two systems is the dual processor. Earlier posts I have read here, and parts of this thread seem to suggest that for FCP3, that is no huge deal. But any sense of whether dual processors are likely to play a more significant (or essential) role in FCP4?

2) A second difference is dual minitor support. This one stumps me a bit, since the video card in the iMac very clearly does support dual monitors. Is this just Apple defining its product line by not providing access to the video card features (a jack?), or is it possible to activate this feature?

3) Another cost issue is DVD Studio Pro. I know iDVD now supports a 90 minute, more compressed format (anyone know what the higher compression is)? Is it now pretty functional for longer projects with menuing? Are there aftermarket DVD programs available for Apple that are more functional, but cheaper than DVD SP?

To tell you the truth, with the apparent budget crunch, I'm close to bailing for a PC and Vegas Video. The open architecture and cheaper base components are really attractive, but all the labs I and my students have access to are Mac.

THanks for any help.
Linc Kesler

Linc,
I gather that you're trying to outfit a workstation for a school setting? And that the real issue is initial cost, or is it a platform issue? (I.e. are the IT people afraid of a Mac?)

If these are the true foundations of conflict you'll need to first equalize the cost issue, which is probably being used as a shield against platform phobias. (IT people can always seem to find extra money for what they want, eh?) My two tips in that regard are:

1. Look at www.promax.com for recondtioned G4 1Ghz DP's. They've been innundated with them during the past few months since the 1.25GHz models came out.

2. Make sure you take full advantage of Apple's educational discounts for software like Final Cut Pro and DVD Studio Pro.

Get your best pricing together and then let us know what the differences are between the two platforms. All other platform advantage arguments will wither against the ever-present "budget crunch" (soft) wall.

<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Tanaka :
- A Contour ShuttlePRO. http://www.contouravs.com/cav_shuttlepro_info.html. It's a handy little gizmo for Final Cut Pro. -->>>

I would have to agree on the Contour ShuttlePRO. It makes life so much better. Now I want a FCP keyboard and life would get even better!

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Sedillo : <<<-- Originally posted by Ken Tanaka :
- A Contour ShuttlePRO. http://www.contouravs.com/cav_shuttlepro_info.html. It's a handy little gizmo for Final Cut Pro. -->>>

I would have to agree on the Contour ShuttlePRO. It makes life so much better. Now I want a FCP keyboard and life would get even better! -->>>

Whilst I agree with your choices for the ShuttlePro I would have to put forward as *the* most important accessory for a Mac is a 2-button mouse with scroll wheel. The Apple mouse may look good but once you start using a 2-button mouse you become far more productive, especially FCP even if you don't use a ShuttlePro.

<<<-- Originally posted by Simon - X :
Whilst I agree with your choices for the ShuttlePro I would have to put forward as *the* most important accessory for a Mac is a 2-button mouse with scroll wheel. The Apple mouse may look good but once you start using a 2-button mouse you become far more productive, especially FCP even if you don't use a ShuttlePro. -->>>

I would have to agree with you. Each day that I use the Apple mouse, I curse it.

Oh baby, do I second that motion! I almost forgot about that. I use a Wacom Intuos tablet which comes with a stylus as well as a 2-button scroll wheel mouse. Best money I've ever spent. In fact, it's even handier than the Shuttle Pro particularly for Final Cut Pro, After Effects and PhotoShop work. Gotta have that.

I really LUST after the Wacom tablet. That is one piece of gear that would help me out in short order. I keep tracking them on eBay.

Paul,
I use a Wacom Graphire tablet with my PowerBook. Less $ but basically same functionality, slightly smaller and lighter, easy to schlep if need be. Ask Santa for one!

Ken,

I wish I could. Problem is I have been "requesting" a Panasonic AG-DVX100. Not that I expect to get one mind you. :)

Went to Pro Tape today with Mark Austin and we had serious toy lust going on. It is a crippling affliction that is a tough to battle. Some days it almost gets the best of me. Poor Mark had to be drug out of the store kicking and screaming. Something about wanting to mate a GL2 and a PD-150.

If you really want to improve your speed as an editor then get the custom FCP keyboard. If you could sit in and watch the fast (best?) editors they use the keyboard with their left hand and a mouse (or trackball) with the right hand. Then sit back and watch the keys fly. But I would urge anyone who wants to become a better editor, to use the keyboard. It is much faster than any other method of editing.

Jeff

Hey Ken, thanks for your reply. In fact, the IT guy would prefer I go for a Mac. He considers them more stable and less hassle, and esp likes X.2. I've been following the PC forum, and it sounds like a year ago, the PC platform compatibility and crashing issues were pretty serious. People do seem a lot happier with the 1394 cards and general stability of Win 2000 and Vegas Video now, though. The issue really does seem to be cost. I'm tempted by Vegas Video given that its sound editing features seem to be much more robust than FCP3, and by my familiarity with the PC platform (I once even did assembler level programming there), and by the cost factors, but compatibility with the labs is a real issue if I have students doing work there.

Here's something else experienced Mac users might tell me. When I'm not video editing, I'm writing, and hour per hour, I'm writing more. It seems to me the way the Mac renders text is similar to the way Windows renders text in .PDF files (as a graphic)--which is to say, pretty fuzzy, compared to the sharp edged text of the native Windows text. When I was using the big flat panel screen on the video editor in the lab I've been using, reading text just about drove me crazy, as my eyes have never been great and now have only one focal length (the years are not kind). Is this pretty much the way it is in the Mac world?

The good news is this decision will be history in a day or two, and I won't bother anyone with questions (about that) any more!

One more though: in Mac land, given the choice between a base-level G4 with whatever monitor I could scrounge, and an iMac with the 17" screen, which would you take?

Thanks again for any advice,
Linc Kesler

Linc,
Now that you mentioned it there is a bit of difference in text redering between the Mac and Windows. I have a digital SGI 1600 flat panel monitor on my desktop Dell PC which is razor-sharp. The Mac's text has become better (to my eyes) with the advent of OS-X and the associated Quartz rendering engine. When composing a doc on Word I feel perfectly comfortable (on my 22" Cine monitor). But your eyes are really the judge.

Hmm..a 17" iMac -vs- a G4 with whatever. Ideally I'd choose a G4 with a 17" monitor. But, failing that, I suppose I'd still choose the G4 desktop and then whine persistently for a better monitor <g>. Seriously, though, I think the 17" iMac is a reasonably good value particularly with the availability of good Firewire drives. You should definitely be able to do some good editing with it.

Is this for a school and, if so, how do you market the class(es) that will use this workstation?

It's for use in a university, Ken. I'm currently doing a research project recording oral histories surrounding some major political and social events in American Indian communities in Oregon. My new home will be in British Columbia, where part of my job will be developing a framework for similar projects with First Nations communities there, quite likely with undergraduate interns (some of whom, I hope, will go on to become graduate students). Your suggestion about the G4 seems like a good one. Thanks for all your advice.

Linc Kesler

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Sedillo :
... Went to Pro Tape today with Mark Austin and we had serious toy lust going on. It is a crippling affliction that is a tough to battle. Some days it almost gets the best of me. Poor Mark had to be drug out of the store kicking and screaming. Something about wanting to mate a GL2 and a PD-150. -->>>

Oish...don't I know it. I think I've got it bad. I just bought the 16x manual lens for my XL1s. That means I now have every available lens and accessory (except the 3D lens which is mercifully out of production) for the XL1s. We need to start a support group here.

Oh man Ken, that is *exactly* why I don't want to buy an XL1S. I'd go crazy with all the extra stuff and end up broke in about a month.

<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Tanaka :

Oish...don't I know it. I think I've got it bad. I just bought the 16x manual lens for my XL1s. That means I now have every available lens and accessory (except the 3D lens which is mercifully out of production) for the XL1s. We need to start a support group here. -->>>

Ok, yesterday I did breakdown and added a new tool to the arsenal. Thanks to you, I am the proud owner of a new two button mouse with a center dial. Man it makes life so much better on my Mac. How did I live without this thing?!

This post is picking up off part of this thread from a while ago. At that point, I was negotiating with the IT people at my new job, long distance, for a computer that would handle video editing of lengthy, but not overly complicated projects intended for DVD. I eventually decided to go with a Mac platform and FCP3, as Ken and Jeff and others had suggested. I've arrived now, to find a G4 with a nice 17" NEC monitor. So far so good. The G4, however, is a 400Mhz single processor model, though it does have 512 RAM. They plan to add a Pioneer A05 DVD-R burner. Before we go farther, though, I'd like more experienced opinions on whether this machine is likely to be adequate for the task at hand. I know that one of you more expert people remarked once that this is about the level of machine that they routinely use, and if it's up to the job, it will save further wrangling. I am, however, likely to be using this machine for a while, and coming in is a better time to argue for an upgrade than later on. My only other concern is that I don't see Apple marketing this machine anymore, so it may well be a refugee from some student lab. Anyting other than the hard disk that is likely to go belly up? The other good news is that the software (OS X and FCP3) are all on site-license and up to the latest releases, but that would be true for any replacement as well.

Thanks for any opinions,
Linc Kesler

Linc,
Well, it looks like you're facing a good news/bad news story here.

Adequacy to task is, I suppose, a relative impression. I imagine that that G4-400 can get the job done for you, but Apple hasn't sold those for approximately 2 years. So it's clearly had a life before you.

With respect to FCP, you will not be able to get the most out of it. With the release of FCP3 Apple more or less declared that a G4-500 is their low water mark. Rendering effects, transitions and color corrections will be quite time-consuming and FCP will not produce any "real-time" rendering on that machine. ("Real-time" rendering is only available on 500MHz G4 processors and higher.)

The hard disk would be the other bogey I'd consider replacing.

My first Mac was a G4-500 dual processor so it's hard for me to speculate further on your Mac's adequacy. I suppose you should take FCP for a test drive on the machine to get a feeling for what you're up against.

It is barely suitable for FCP 3 and will be not suitable for FCP 4. Dual Processors are the way to go. The Dual 450 or 500 will barely work with FCP 4 and a good portion of the features (at least that's the rumor). I would look at the Dual 867, which should drop in price in the next 30 days or so. I guess I would point out that future software (FCP 4) will be problematic and tell them you'll live with the 400 you have until the next price drop.

Jeff

Thanks for the replies. My situation here seems to be clarifying a bit, and the choice is now between an 867 dual and a 1 G dual, both with 512, superdrive, and the cheaper video card. The difference in price is about $800 Can ($500 US), for the slightly higher processor speed and faster bus speed. Since this chunk comes out of my budget, my question now is whether the faster box is worth the money. I'm sorry to bother you again with this inquiry: if this were in the PC world, where I have more experience, and with software I'd used more extensively, I'd know the answer myself. I really appreciate the expertise found on this forum.

Thanks again,
Linc Kesler

Don't worry about the video card. It make little if any difference in editing. I would get the 867 Dual Processor and use the savings to buy more Ram and another drive for FCP media. It can be internal (cheaper) or FireWire (more expensive).

Jeff

Yup. That's what I'd do on a limited budget, too. You'll get much more value from memory and/or the external media drive than you will from the extra processor horsepower.

So how did you wrestle-up from a G4-400? Tantrum? Blackmail?

Actually, it ended up just being clarification and getting the budget lines sorted out. Until last week, I'd been dealing with this long distance while managing a number of other things. Now that I am on site and can actually talk to people, it's working better, and, so far, its a fairly helpful environment. I hope it lasts: it's such a pleasant change from my last 20 yr gig.

Thanks again for the advice.

Linc