View Full Version : Cyc walls - build or use pre-fab?
David Banner September 8th, 2021, 07:58 PM Planning on building a studio and as we all know the cyc coves/curves are not easy.
So I found a place that will sell the curved wood framing for the skeleton, and then you have to assemble, apply the drywall and everything else. I'll have to hire it done because there is no way I can do the drywall corners..
Or a place that has pre-made cove/curve pieces of foam with reinforced mesh on top, and they will come install the thing too.
So I'm looking at one of those 2 options because cutting all those curved wood pieces looks like a nightmare.
What are your thoughts about which is better over time? Seems the pre-made foam pieces are better than bent drywall?
U shaped cyc,
40' wall, 38' wall, 20' wall
18' high
Paul R Johnson September 9th, 2021, 01:26 AM I did one in the early 2000’s when I was working at a college. I doubted my ability and the construction folk jumped at it as a real world project. I paid for the materials and the students did it, and their tutors did the ‘repairs’ where their work was a little rough. Downside was time scale it took a month of a few hours here and a few hours there. Maybe this could be an option in your area. Don’t be thinking it’s free labour, but a real educational problem for them to solve. You’ll need to explain the accuracy and finish you need to the course tutors, so they can build it in, and present the plan very early. If you can do this, it could even be good to shoot,
Allan Black September 9th, 2021, 03:06 AM U shaped cyc,
40' wall, 38' wall, 20' wall
18' high
Hi David, that’s a big studio, are you planning to shoot video in there - with sound.
Might be worth getting an audio specialist in there, so the cyc becomes part of the quote to soundproof your studio.
Cheers.
David Banner September 9th, 2021, 08:06 AM Thank you Allan and Paul
Allan Black September 9th, 2021, 05:45 PM There’s more David :) If you’re videoing music with guitar amps and shooting sound in there especially if you’re using wireless mics, set one up asap and with headphones, carefully listen for any local radio frequency interference at various times of the day and night, police, ambulance, FM radio etc. If you do hear some at any volume, do a Google search for ‘Faraday cages for RF interference in recording studios.’
If you’re planning to rent your studio out, check the local ordinances for fire safety rules etc. You probably need to get govt. approvals. You might have covered all this but if not, best to do it before you get under way.
Cheers.
David Banner September 9th, 2021, 06:34 PM Thanks Allan. The studio is not built yet. I'm trying to determine budget for it all.
I'm building it primarilly for my own projects but also will rent it. Certainly will be recording sound - lav mics and mics on stands etc. And yes I foresee music videos happening in there too. I wasn't aware of any special govt approvals needed so thanks for bringing that up
Allan Black September 9th, 2021, 08:48 PM David, after spending a heap in building a good video/music studio, obviously renting it out to recover your investment is the natural progression.
In 1978 I built music production studios in Sydney and went thru the same exercises you’re going to. I was lucky in knowing a brilliant acoustic engineer who saved me heaps in solving problems before they cost me much more in solving them. 3 phase electrical power with star grounding to earth and silent running studio aircons were set up before we opened for business, impossible to install these later.
Right now, even if you don’t rent it, I suggest you check out the local building codes in your area and make sure the neighbours are on side. Get any approvals in place before you do anything else.
You might also check out your local studio competition, their advertising and their studio rates. You could visit them incognito and make notes later. You could also check if there’s a local video school and offer student rates while you settle your systems in place. It’s a lotta weekends, late nights, worries, money ... and satisfaction.
The old saying goes - ‘The harder you work the luckier you’ll get.’ That’s true I know.
Cheers.
David Banner September 9th, 2021, 09:05 PM Thank you. You have great valuable experience. I've checked on the zoning but I need to check for any other approvals. All great points about HVAC and electrical etc.
I'm attaching my latest rough layout in case you have advice. After I'm happy with it I will give it to my architect
My main intended use is my corporate videos and commericals. But also some larger scale special effects for a show I'm trying to produce. Also music videos and going to approach a dance school about a colorful dance promo. So I want to have some range of capability.
I'm planning on having 18' clear height for the light grid, since I'll lose several feet from that from the space lights that are around 3.5'
Allan Black September 9th, 2021, 11:04 PM Thanks David .. very interesting layout, on the ground floor very important for stability. I notice it’s Studio D, where is A-C, in the same building, or are they in another part of town. Are you part of a bigger outfit?
And I’m assuming at present it’s a cleared empty space, so you can line the walls with acoustic materials. Looking at the size and intended projects I don’t think you need perfect sound studio acoustics, that’s where your costs will be, but you do need acoustics that control the unwanted reverberations in your studio. Will your surrounding properties make intruding noises? If so it’s a different acoustic ball game, very important you check this out now before you go any further.
There’s probably a local acoustic guy who could help … or there’s a specialist on the web who I worked with many many years ago, John Sayers who could possibly help you …
https://www.johnlsayers.com/
If you contact him I’d say he’ll give you a reasonable quote after you send him your specs, but make sure everything is accurate. Mention me, tell him you’re not building the Taj Mahal but I still don’t think he’ll give you a discount lol. Let’s know how you go.
Check this out. … http://johnlsayers.com/Recmanual/index.htm
Cheers.
Paul R Johnson September 10th, 2021, 01:11 AM Governments tend to use safety as the source of their control. Planning permissions, changes of use rules, fire safety, electrical safety are protected world wide in most territories. Numbers of people vs numbers of fire exits. Emergency lights, electric shock protection etc. All controlled locally usually. Regulations on all kinds of things once you move from home/hobby to work/business. Even things like the number of urinals per group of people. Sanitary bins, maintained emergency lights and kitchen ventilation. Quite normal wherever you are but always different to other countries and sometimes different to even other districts!
David Banner September 10th, 2021, 08:57 AM Thank you again.
This is to be my only building (No A, B or C studio). I just gave the file a random name. I am not part of a bigger group. It's just me and I'm a small time guy.
The building is not built yet and the property I am looking to buy is pretty good as far as not having noisy businesses next door, no high traffic roads nearby and no train tracks. Aircraft should be infrequent since I am out of their flight path.
The design I shared is attempting to surround the studio with noise isolation rooms on the sides that could protect against the sides of the building that would have the most noise coming from outside. I am trying to minimize how many walls have to be framed, and save money by having all plumbing in same area. This is a huge stretch for me so I am planning to pay for a large part of it by selling all my non-video assets so I don't have crushing debt in the hard times almost sure to come.
That sound studio link you shared is excellent!
I'm really not trying to make a studio for live music recording. There is a friendly guy 50 minutes away that does that so I am not trying to compete with him. I want to be able to shoot commercials and corporate projects mainly so I need clean audio for speaking but not necessarily a sound treated stage for a pristine band recording. The music videos I would shoot would most likely all be lip synced to playback at the studio.
I certainly do not want to make a critical mistake. I am thinking the biggest threat from outside noise in that design would be from the roof, or echoes/etc from inside, and HVAC. So I need to figure that out and plan accordingly.
I know an architect who can help with meeting the codes. You guys have wisdom and experience about video studios so I am hoping to gather knowledge from all and put it all together into something that will accomplish what I am trying to do
Allan Black September 10th, 2021, 05:53 PM Hi David thanks for explaining your plans. One thing I would definitely make sure is acoustically correct, is the audio booth. When you get a reputation for recording an excellent voice sound, you’ll get that work separate from the studio work.
John Sayers is very helpful in publishing his acoustic manual on line - there’s some important information there to help your architect and builder … The Recording Manual (http://johnlsayers.com/Recmanual/index.htm)
But the best thing so far in your thread is, you’ll own the building. 20 years from now when its value has increased out of sight, it’ll be your retirement plan and you can look back and enjoy this thread. I believe Chris Hurd has said he’ll still be going.
Cheers.
Paul R Johnson September 11th, 2021, 12:40 AM There’s a similar topic running elsewhere on the subject and the guys plans have been evolving nicely, and he has included some living space hidden into the design too.
https://www.dvxuser.com/forum/off-topic/cafe-ala-dvx/375567-studio-layout-advice-requested
John Nantz September 11th, 2021, 08:31 PM David - This is an interesting project you have. Buildings are more in my comfort zone, while studios not at all. With regard to buildings, here are some of my thoughts:
The building is currently at 4,400 sq ft,grose, but if over 5,000 sq ft it will have to be sprinklered for fire.
Not sure if the footage requirement is based on the outside dimensions, or net useable area, but there is that threshold to look out for.
The area over the office and break room could potentially be used as a mezzanine storage area; items that are seldom used (seasonal decorations, archive file cabinets, left-over construction materials that can be used for patching like floor tile, carpet, paint, ceiling tile, etc.), would need a stairwell. It is unbelievable how much storage of stuff can be accumulated over time. Don't need standard ceiling height and should not need heating or cooling but that can limit what gets stored there if the items can't take the temperature extremes. Insulate under the floor for the spaces below.
Potential location for the HVAC units overhead in the Van garage, but plan for replacement access via forklift as they don't last forever. Service will require clearance for safety. For sound isolation, perhaps an outside ground level spot would be better but would likely require longer duct runs. Edit: Note "HVAC units" is plural; recommend two units so there is always one functional in the event there is a maintenance problem.
Three-phase power is not available everywhere so be sure to check for availability. Mostly found in industrial and commercial zoned areas. Expensive to run new lines.
ADA requirements are critical. This is an architect and lawyer full employment opportunity code requirement. Bobrick has a helpful ADA restroom design booklet. Some states have ADA requirements that are over and above the national requirements, like California for example.
Seriously consider optimizing solar power in the roof design, even if not needed for today, and also in the overall building design. Energy is only going to become more expensive. Provide some empty conduits to the main electrical panel and elsewhere. The types of conductors (not just electrical) keep changing. Remember the old phone and TV coax wires? Some inexpensive empty conduits in insulated walls will help to future-proof the building. UPS system? Sub panel? Generator? Security and theft system?
Small storage areas:
Coat closet
Janitorial equipment and suppliies
Landscape maintenance tools
Below is an ADA restroom I recently installed. The existing restroom was a former approved ADA one, but the standards have changed. The path from the parking stall (which has to be nearest to the entry door), all the way through the building to the restroom, must meet ADA requirements. Edit: Note tilt mirror for wheel chair use. Recommend plumbing not be located in an outside wall to avoid freezing.
David Banner September 11th, 2021, 11:12 PM Thank you everyone.
Thanks Allan. I will research your info link more so that the audio VO booth is accoustically good.
Thanks John. All good points and I had some ideas on spaces for the
-Janitorial equipment and suppliies
-Landscape maintenance tools
but am unsure and am certainly listening for suggestions
Certainly want to stay below 5000sq ft! Thanks for the warning.
I'll check on 3 phase power. All the locations I'm looking at are commercial zones.
You mentioned several other significant things I need to check into. My restroom locations might be a problem...
My earlier design had a bigger garage space for storing stuff but this new one considerably less, which is a concern. Newer idea was to try to make the biggest studio/cyc I can muster.
I had looked into solar power somewhat in the past but it looked too costly. I'll ask about that again though.
The stairs in the studio space actually go up to a 2nd floor that is only above the edit/work room/lounge/meeting area (lower left corner of the picture). I plan on living in that space. Depending on requirments for the bathrooms celings on the 1st floor, I may use some of the space above them for storage too.
The basic idea for the project is an insulated commercial box building "shell" and I build it out as needed inside, leaving as much of it as I can with exposed concrete floor, exposed insulated walls and exposed insulated commercial "ceiling" to minimize how many walls and ceilings I have to build to save $$.
You hit on several things I need to really think about, some of which I hadn't thought of at all.
Paul R Johnson September 12th, 2021, 12:20 AM Commercial ceilings keep dust out. They rarely keep sound out. They also aren’t structural, so weight needs carrying from above. So if you need sealing for audio reasons, the you’re probably going to have to think about how you hang heavy lighting? Ground supported truss works but not when you build in cyc curves. Timber internal framing works but you must carry a heavy ceiling for the span, so that’s usually steelwork, with interior sheeting or the newer engineered timber trusses, which are stronger and lighter than solid timber. You’ll need advice on this one with weights vs spans. Studios that hear aircraft going over and car horns inside wont be popular.
Allan Black September 12th, 2021, 07:01 PM Some interesting DVXuser advice there Paul, I came across this from Chris F …
‘If I had to do my last studio over again I'd curb my excitement about building my dream space and would have just focused on building the white cyc, making sure all the amenities are really dialed in, invested more in dampening the sound inside and blocking sound from outside and then just used and rented the studio as is for a year at least and then see how I and other people actually use the space before making any more customizations. At the end of the day a lot of productions just want a big, quiet space that they can customize to their specific project with the amenities that make their production easier.’
That is interesting but there’s more :) When I built my studios in 1978, one of the first well known specialists I got advice from wanted to make the whole site a huge music studio, able to accommodate a symphony orchestra with expensive film projection gear and big screens to score music for movies.
But I knew from watching others ‘operational problems’ over the years, the aim should be to try and have as many sources of income as possible. First was acoustic music studios for others to rent, 2nd was my quadraphonic s/track productions for clients multi-screen audio visual programs. 3rd was our high speed audio cassette duplication business, and we invested in a big Otari loop bin system with auto winders and ‘print on’ for the labels. This took up our whole 2nd. floor and I really got into making a great sounding cassette. In 1995 we got an offer to buy us out from the biggest outfit in the country.
But the idea was, when business was down in one area, the others would support our operation. And that’s what happened, in the economic downturn in the mid 1980s, we never noticed it but our competition certainly did. Our music studios were quiet but the a/v soundtracks still went ahead. But our biggest income then was, we had a contract to supply the store background music on audio cassette to most of the retail chains in Aust. Every Friday we delivered 6000+ cassettes to a mailing house. There were problems at the start, staff was one, until we settled on a group of reliable ladies to run our cassette operation.
I had a sleeping bag and regularly slept at the studio. Many times I had coffee watching passersby going to work. I have to add, my dear wife took a series of book keeping lessons but, I missed my daughters early school years however I’m proud that we earned enough to send them to excellent private schools. And that’s paid off, they now have university degrees with great jobs in upper management, married with their own young families. Then by 2002 the city had expanded to our front door, we got an offer I couldn’t refuse so we sold our business, our building and I retired.
David I wrote this to let you know, there are definitely other avenues for your intended studio business, you just have to find them.
Cheers.
David Banner September 16th, 2021, 08:35 PM Thank you for sharing that. Seems their diverse offerings got them through the changing times in the story you shared.
I'm not sure what else I can offer with the gear I have now and limited funds besides.
white cyc
green screen
VO
tape transfers
disc duplication
There are other ideas I have but can't do.
David Banner September 16th, 2021, 08:39 PM Thanks again Paul. Yes. I'm talking this over with architect. Lots to figure out. Thankfully you guys are helping a lot
Paul R Johnson September 17th, 2021, 12:23 AM I have two duplicators and I’ve not put a CD or DVD through them in 3 years! One when new had Blu-ray capability. Not one client ever requested one. For physical delivery it’s usb sticks and digital downloads 100% for my type of products. Even my diehards have shifted.
David Banner September 17th, 2021, 07:09 AM Thank you. I also have a USB duplicator but my clients still mostly want DVDs which I thought would be end of life years ago but are still hanging on. Could change any year though..
Allan Black September 17th, 2021, 09:54 PM I'm not sure what else I can offer with the gear I have now and limited funds besides.
white cyc
green screen
VO
tape transfers
disc duplication
David you have a couple of areas there, you just have to watch for all your options in those areas. As you build your place over time, ideas and options will emerge. Honestly I think the mistake you could make would be to stop looking.
Time moves on Paul. For retail store background music over the years, the equipment went: audio cassettes > CDs > replaced with a dish on the roof of each store for music from a satellite link. The changeover to CDs was gradual as store players were installed and along with the cassettes, we employed one of the first CD duplicators.
But while high speed cassette duplication needed special expertise, it wasn’t hard to realise that simple backyard CD duplicators would soon appear - with cheaper prices. So I was happy when in 2002 we sold everything including our Otari plant, not really concerned where it would end up. But it was sold to an outfit in Indonesia and we know if it wasn’t for 3rd world countries, magnetic audio tape would have disappeared years ago.
When we were on holidays in South Africa a few years later I went into a record shop in Capetown. On one wall there was a rack of CDs while on the opposite wall there was a shelf of local and imported music cassettes. You could order a cassette recorded from a CD and come back an hour later to collect it. I’d say that is still the case in the far east.
Cheers.
Allan Black September 24th, 2021, 01:46 AM Hi David, here’s what they’re doing in Istanbul in Turkey. If you save this link, it might give you some ideas when you get to this stage …
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SfeSYJcSk_KgpV9VrhaqEPYB1IS-2FE_/view
Cheers.
John Nantz September 24th, 2021, 11:01 PM Question: Does the 38-ft x 50-ft space have to be clear of any ceiling supports?
Reason for the question is, as the clear span increases, the beam strength to support the roof increases tremendously, and consequently, the cost. A support column to cut down on the clear span will help tremendously in reducing the roof cost.
Allan Black September 25th, 2021, 04:36 AM Good question for Davids proposed studio John, it depends on important answers from his Structural Engineers Report. What will the estimated 1st floor weight be, what will the ground floor ceiling be made of etc.
I remember when XXXX in Sydney built their new museum, to save costs someone specified timber for the floor of the first floor, ie: the ceiling of the ground floor. After they built it all hxxl broke loose, they couldn’t load the 1st floor because of the weight limit then finally downstairs it looked like forest with all the timber supports.
This is why a certified SE should always be employed for the job, I’m not saying XXXX didn’t but someone took over control.
Cheers.
David Banner September 25th, 2021, 02:04 PM Thanks again. That link in Turkey looks good and much bigger. Their white cyc configuration seems unusal next to the green wall divde seemingly cutting off usability though?
I look at a lot of studo layouts, constantly trying to get ideas and they vary a lot.
Ideas and options will change as you said over time. I need to have the space and ability to adapt.
Seems the studio space needs to be clear span for the shooting stage space with no support poles in the way.
A wide clear span certainly introduces a load and cost factor. My architect sent me a pic of a 50X80 example building using wood for supports in the ceiling as an alternative to a PEMB that could be used to support the ceiling fixtures and also said if needed we could bury a steel support in the walls for extra strength if needed.
This project involves much that is beyond my current knowledge obviously. So I'm trying to learn.
It also seems that a studio/stage space as big as 38X50 really needs a ceiling higher than 16' else the height becomes a limiting factor. So I'm wanting 18' clear height.
20' would be better but I've looked at lots of studios online for rent and 12,14 and 16' are common heights to the grid in the modest studios. The really big ones are taller but I simply cannot afford a huge studio nor currently have demand for one. Though I want one :)
Seth Bloombaum October 18th, 2021, 10:33 AM Perhaps I’m late to this party, but I do want to speak up in support of finishing methods that control room reverberation. Its been touched on here; notice that it was the #1 or #2 takeaway in the reflection from DVXuser that was quoted.
There are two basic acoustic challenges in a studio; isolation (from building and exterior noise sources), and reverberation control.
Isolation has largely to do with mass between any noise sources and the studio, mechanical isolation from sources of vibration (HVAC), and control of the velocity of airflow from HVAC.
Reverberation control usually comes from absorbent materials on walls and ceilings. It’s important to control at least one side of parallel surfaces. Eg. most of us can’t put absorbent materials on the floor, so the ceiling would have treatments. We can’t make the cyc absorbent, so the opposite walls of the cyc get treated.
Do discuss with your architect and consider the services an acoustical engineer. Some things are easy and inexpensive to do during construction, like leaving ceiling insulation exposed, but must be designed per the structural plan for the ceiling. Some things are straightforward to add later, like fiberglass/rock wool panel wall treatments wrapped in cloth, but will be more economical if you are working to a design that has your construction workers do installation.
Some may recommend to just build it, see where you are, then fix it. So much of the noise environment can be analyzed and structure designed to accommodate the intended use… it’s relatively expensive to add mass to the structure later. It’s difficult and expensive to update the HVAC system. Etc.
Reverberation control for the spoken word may become a make or break issue for renting your studio. Get a good reputation for sound from the first day you open your doors! Way better than the alternative.
Allan Black October 18th, 2021, 04:28 PM You’re not too late Seth, afaik David is still in the very early stages with his new studio project. I agree with your comments, especially the last one, he has to find as many different sources of income as he can, from the same studio.
Cheers.
David Banner October 18th, 2021, 10:29 PM Perhaps I’m late to this party, but I do want to speak up in support of finishing methods that control room reverberation. Its been touched on here; notice that it was the #1 or #2 takeaway in the reflection from DVXuser that was quoted.
There are two basic acoustic challenges in a studio; isolation (from building and exterior noise sources), and reverberation control.
Isolation has largely to do with mass between any noise sources and the studio, mechanical isolation from sources of vibration (HVAC), and control of the velocity of airflow from HVAC.
Reverberation control usually comes from absorbent materials on walls and ceilings. It’s important to control at least one side of parallel surfaces. Eg. most of us can’t put absorbent materials on the floor, so the ceiling would have treatments. We can’t make the cyc absorbent, so the opposite walls of the cyc get treated.
Do discuss with your architect and consider the services an acoustical engineer. Some things are easy and inexpensive to do during construction, like leaving ceiling insulation exposed, but must be designed per the structural plan for the ceiling. Some things are straightforward to add later, like fiberglass/rock wool panel wall treatments wrapped in cloth, but will be more economical if you are working to a design that has your construction workers do installation.
Some may recommend to just build it, see where you are, then fix it. So much of the noise environment can be analyzed and structure designed to accommodate the intended use… it’s relatively expensive to add mass to the structure later. It’s difficult and expensive to update the HVAC system. Etc.
Reverberation control for the spoken word may become a make or break issue for renting your studio. Get a good reputation for sound from the first day you open your doors! Way better than the alternative.
Thank you Seth. Not late at all. Great info. I've been focussed mainly on isolation from outside sources but I see interior reverberation certainly needs to be addressed now. I have a modified layout that I probably should share here for input. Yes I am still in early stages trying to get the land and determine a lot of things about the building. I hope to meet with architect soon and go over a number of things that have been discussed online
David Banner October 18th, 2021, 10:54 PM Here is the latest idea I have. The idea is to have a lot of open space for flexibility, a sound proofed green screen room, and 15X15 fashion wall.
I realized that a 55' wide building would be better but I don't need clear span expensive load bearing 55' trusses for the ceiling grid, only 38' wide across the stage part so I'm going talk with architect about possibility of building a box in a box (pink area). That could also provide a 2nd barrier for the ceiling.
I have exterior sound concerns regarding the large O.H. door and also coming from the left (main entry) side which will have windows so my thoughts are to have sliding/expanding wall/curtains that I can close in for a second barrier at the top and the left side?
However after reading Seth's post I wonder how sliding walls would work with interior reverb? And if I should angle the corner of the green screen room towards the stage?
Paul R Johnson October 19th, 2021, 01:52 AM If you want clear space and flexibility, then have you considered a floor supported truss. Back in the 2000s I had a flexible space to look after and I invested in some triangular aluminium truss that I could build into different shapes to suit what we were doing. My total height was 4.5m to the ceiling, which was absolutely NOT load bearing - 120 yr old plaster and lath! The truss was mainly 2m sections, with some shorter ones, and various corners and cross pieces. So we might have had 6 legs and put in cross trusses where we needed to support equipment or screens, drapes etc. The mistake was using 3 chord triangular - which has an 'up' and a 'down' which limited some designs because we'd want to go the wrong way - I'd buy 4 chord truss now, as it doesn't have orientation issues. You could use it on the edges of the set, and hang cloths and drapes from it, use it to hang your lights or speakers, support cables, and sometimes just look good, with the black masking on the outside - great for industrial feel. You can add extra tube across the top, or hanging down for lights that must be in certain places and then when that shoot is done, part-dismantle it and build a different shape - ideal for screening off.
Sound wise - large hard panels do create great reflectors and with a big space, it's always worth creating more absorption than you may think - so in larger spaces make sure every parallel pair of surfaces has one of them covered in panels. You can often get away with doing a great job on just two walls of four, and then when you add the drapes it gets better and better. two hard surfaces facing each other are always bad, and in bigger spaces can be quite noticeable.
Allan Black October 21st, 2021, 02:19 PM With your latest design, looks like you’ve moved the audio recording booth away from the outside wall, further into the building David. That should help isolating from any sound coming from outside the building.
Don’t forget to run tests for spurious Radio Frequency interference at different times over 24x7 periods at various points in the site, before you start any construction.
Now’s the time you need to find out if you have to cover your whole place in chicken wire, like we nearly had to do, before we settled on a star ground electrical wiring system.
Cheers.
David Banner October 21st, 2021, 07:18 PM Another big thank you to everyone. I won't be able to sound proof the large space but certainly want to sound treat it during construction with techniques that would help and be more costly later. I hadn't realized that the larger space would be more problematic so I need to determine some things to do to help for sure. So I have some more learning to do to determine what to do now.
I do however plan on making that small green screen room sound proof so I have a fall back option in case of a high noise day. That was a suggestion a nice guy made.
David Banner October 21st, 2021, 07:21 PM With your latest design, looks like you’ve moved the audio recording booth away from the outside wall, further into the building David. That should help isolating from any sound coming from outside the building.
Don’t forget to run tests for spurious Radio Frequency interference at different times over 24x7 periods at various points in the site, before you start any construction.
Now’s the time you need to find out if you have to cover your whole place in chicken wire, like we nearly had to do, before we settled on a star ground electrical wiring system.
Cheers.
I would like more info on this please. Is this issue you are describing an interferance issue with wireless audio due to the building's electrical system? Or is this issue related to radio interferance from the location the building is built in? I haven't checked the air waves at the locations I'm thinking about buying yet...oooh
David Banner October 21st, 2021, 07:40 PM should I angle the wall of the green screen room would that help?
Allan Black October 22nd, 2021, 05:20 PM I would like more info on this please. Is this issue you are describing an interferance issue with wireless audio due to the building's electrical system? Or is this issue related to radio interferance from the location the building is built in? I haven't checked the air waves at the locations I'm thinking about buying yet...oooh
David, as said previously, your studio needs special electrical power cabling that blocks all RF, that’s Radio Frequency wireless interference from police, ambulance, civil rescue, CB radio etc. in worst situations each time you open audio faders.
To do this you need pro help to test for RF, your construction people might give you leads, and call local radio, tv stations and people who know what happens if you get it wrong.
Cheers.
David Banner October 22nd, 2021, 10:29 PM Thank you again very much, Allan
Paul R Johnson October 23rd, 2021, 01:10 PM Sound treatment doesn't always have to be clever or technical and mega expensive. Film studios, and larger TV studios have frequently used timber battens vertical on the wall, 2" deep, with rock wool in the gaps - covered with chicken wire to prevent the Rockwell falling out. Looks horrible, but while rock wool this thin does little for sub 500Hz, it's very good at deadening the 'big' sound you get from slapback from the parallel surfaces. As you usually cover the walls with drapes or green cloths anyway. There are some big studios waiting to be knocked down on the Thames in London - and in this picture you can see this kind of construction - I found another picture from 2016 when the place was in use - I loved it there.
I'm very interested in the comments about screened mains wiring. In the UK this is very rare. Where there are large EMF fields, we'd still put cable in steel conduit, but I do have to say that I have never deviated from our standard wiring scheme here, which is ring circuits, NOT radials. Our power for control rooms, and all normal areas would be flat twin and earth in 2.5mm2 size, rated at 32A. In practice this means audio equipment, for example is actually enclosed in a ring main, surrounding it - nowhere to hide. We don't get problematic interference. I've never done a noise survey on radio mic channels, for instance. Never had to stick the studio in a Faraday cage. The BBC for many years had technical earths (grounds) - as in a totally separate clean grounding network throughout a building, leaving the mains grounds to just be there for safety purposes. The jury was always out on the technical ground as it only took a single badly designed piece of kit that had the mains earth attached to the chassis for it to introduce hum into a quiet system - usually when bolted into a 19" rack. Technical grounds are now quite rare. Where screening is required - maybe to make absolutely sure there is no leakage from cables feeding dimmers, etc, then the dimmers would be fed locally from a distribution point, and that point wired back to the intake with Steel Wire Armoured cable (SWA) with glands grounding both ends. Now we're into LEDs, the higher current supplies seem to be vanishing. My 63A 140V single phase outlet in my studio is empty most of the time - my current consumption has gone right down. My floor area of course is smaller, but mains borne interference and RF interference isn't an issue at all for me, and hasn't been for years.
David Banner October 24th, 2021, 06:20 PM Thank you Paul, very much.
That is encouraging to hear some sound treatment might not have to be too clever, technical or mega expensive.
Those photos are good.
With lower draw LED fixtures I was wondering how much power I should have available. I do not plan on using lots of high power tungsten lights, but ~20 LED space lights do suck some power, but not insane amounts. No telling what someone coming in to rent the place might want to use
Allan Black October 24th, 2021, 07:03 PM Your electrician can give you 3 phase power requirements and costs based on your list of current gear David. Add it up then add 50% to cover new gear you haven’t thought of yet.
Check out ‘Magnesite’ cork and rubber compound flooring for your studio. It covers your buildings concrete floor. In 1962 we had it at NBN Channel 3 in Newcastle north of Sydney, it’s designed for stable, silent tracking for studio cameras. It’s now used for a lot of other similar applications and the compound has improved and the price has come down a lot over the years.
All NBNs studio walls and ceiling were covered in sound absorbing Bullswool and this was held in place with small gauge chicken wire. This contributed to blocking any RF inference and while I was there, we never had any trouble with electrical grounding problems, hums, clicks or anything.
Cheers.
Paul R Johnson October 25th, 2021, 12:45 AM Even with LED, power requests can often be higher than you expect. Maybe somebody needs to lift something with light weight truss, but they need three phase for the motors. Sometimes people have equipment with power connectors determined by where they usually go. For instance, if you do a music video, then they may bring their touring kit because it does their tracks, in ears and monitors. It will probably be rigged, if it was in the UKm with single or three phase on 63 amp connectors. Even if it only needs less than 10. Having power available if required, makes sense. If you have electricians in, the cost for just in case supplies is trivial but useful.
David Banner November 19th, 2021, 08:52 AM Hi again. Wanted to share update. We've been working on design and fixing some things.
Here is our plan.
Planning on building a box building inside of a PEMB box building to isolate from exterior noise.
Plan on having large black curtains that can slide around to cover up things in side the studio as needed (such as green screen and OH door).
Do you recommend the electric panels being where they are or inside the studio?
I'm thinking to increase the audio booth by another 6 or 8 inches to allow for more space to compensate for interior deadening
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