I've been reading on many of the forums I use hundreds of complaints because forum owners get pressured or persuaded to update software, add features and install modules to make forums content managed friendly - apparently this is modern and cool. At least three of my favourite forums have virtually died when these changes have been made, and all the old members hate it. The site owners have all spent money and hours of work on a worse product - so before this forum changes, please don't.

It's great as it is. The white and two blues is easy to read. The sections are organised and the notification of new posts works really well. Please don't go to white text on grey backgrounds and black boxes and remove the 'New Posts' button and replace it with current/trending/popular or other nonworking buttons that dredge up current posts that were made twenty year previously, but as somebody found one by searching, brings it up as 'popular'.

DV Info is appreciated and liked - so can I please suggest not listening to anyone who tells the owners they need to 'improve' the forum.

One forum I used I have totally dumped and three others are now rubbish - and of course the owners take the hump when their improvements are universally hated. One got the "well if you hate it so much, leave" treatment from the owner and dozens of posts a day is now one every few days, and he is having to start his own topics because everyone has got fed up.

So - just thought I'd say how much this forum is appreciated before anyone tinkers.

Hear hear Paul, I agree 100%!

I thought RO's brief change to XenForo was okay. I'm fine with it on HR dot com. But the implementation of Drupal at RO just makes me click away.

I also agree with Paul on this mater. Please leave the forum the way it is.

Hear hear Paul, I agree 100%!

Yes! Two thumbs up!

Due to lower traffic from pre-pandemic days, perhaps change the "New Posts" to span two days inside of one?

Apart from mobile friendly display (why would you bother using a mobile device for reading a forum board anyway?) DVinfo works well and certainly isn't broken. Look forward to it staying as it is.

Andrew

I suspect many of the software changes in 'updates' are meant to enhance the phone viewing audience of the internet. People who view on large real screens are not the bulk anymore, it seems.

I agree. Don't change. I go to DVXuser and GV EDIUS forums and they have both changed for the worse. Simple buttons like New Posts and quicklinks like mark all read have gone from both on the main screen. Argument again was for phone reading. That's fine but leave the PC user the same.

Haha, DVinfo - last refuge of the grumpy old men! Honestly guys, I don't understand what you're talking about. I'm a mod on two forums that switched to Xenforo and think it's great. I also like the dark themes, nice in a darkened room (like where I edit video). But there's an option to choose either light or dark.

This reminds me of the days when people here were so adamant the 4:3 video was the ultimate form and 16:9 was just some kind of fad. Seriously... it's the *content* that's important, not the colors and forum software. Personally, I'm getting pretty tired of the blue and white. And I know Chris, he always hated things like smilies and "likes"... but, c'mon, it's 2021 and that's the standard. It's about time to adopt those here. Don't get me wrong - I hate FaceBook, Instagram and LinkedIn, so that's not what I want. But having a set of "like" icons let's people quickly react without actually composing a whole post. It's just more efficient.

But - whatever - leave it the same or change it. Doesn't matter all that much to me. It just surprises me that you feel so strongly about this to start a thread.

"... it's the *content* that's important, not the colors and forum software."

EXACTLY! And that in a nutshell is the problem.

The "content" access is nowhere near as accessible as it was previously on one of the forums I visit. Maybe the forum I have in mind is easier to administer, but it is surely nowhere near the elegant functional user-friendly forum it used to be. The end-user experience obviously had little or minimal consideration when any layout changes were being considered. If the end-user experience had been a major focus of consideration which one would expect from a public forum when being "re-worked", then one would have hoped that the end-user experience would have been enhanced. Sadly to date, this has not been the case. The changes wrought have delivered more of a retrograde user experience. What used to be a pleasant enjoyable interaction with a forum has now become a bit of a drudge to dig through. Shame, because it has so much talent contributing. I guess the passage of time will tell us just how successful that particular forum's functionality changes are... or not. As always, all will be revealed in the future by the numbers attending.

+1 about keeping the status quo here at DVInfo. Without a doubt!

Chris Young

+1

Content is what matters. In that regard I want to know what is new from the last time I visited a forum. A nice "new posts " button and when I leave want to mark "all read" Really simple I really have no bother about colour etc just the content and know whats new. Is that so hard to achieve in a new layout ? DVXinfo and Grass Valley EDIUS forum failed in this simple layout where they had these features in the "old" layout.

That's all fine. But it has nothing to do with the choice of colors or forum software. I'm not familiar with the sites that are being complained about - DVinfo is the only forum I frequent for video. Sounds like they made poor choices with forum re-designs. But you can still have all the things you guys like in terms of content and organization PLUS give the forum a more modern look and have features such as "likes", emoticons and optional dark mode.

Changing colours is fine. Just don't loose all the convenience for the colour change. Just change the colour scheme, make it easy to see on phones or whatever. Just don't reduce the useful features. It is just as useful to have a button for new posts or mark read on a phone as it is on a PC. Simple needs please note for the forums you moderate Boyd.

Simple needs please note for the forums you moderate Boyd.

I don't understand, is that a question? FWIW, the best example would probably be MacRumors which (aside from apple.com) is the largest Apple-related site on the net and also one of the largest forums of any kind. We have hundreds of thousands of members and surely more posts in a day than DVinfo sees in a year. Anyway, we migrated from vBulletin to Xenforo a few years ago. Seems to me that the layout would meet all the requirements that people want here, and I especially like the sidebar that shows recent posts - but you can hide it if you don't like it. And yes, the light mode is still blue and white, LOL. There are also buttons for new posts and marking everything read. Here's an example of the dark and light styles. You can choose either, or automatic mode to switch after dark.

Coming back to my earlier point, look at all the space that is being used in this thread by people simply saying they agree with the OP. That's just a waste IMO, a "like" button would accomplish the same thing without taking up so much space with "+1" type comments.

They look fine as they seem to have the ability to, with one button, give the user a list of new posts for them. There is a difference for totally new activity and a new post on a thread that I am following. With the one button press I would like to go to the place I left off as well as list anything new. Not an unreasonable request for a new improved forum software. I really have no comment on colour scheme as that is of lower importance to me. Even create my own button would be great too.

There is a difference for totally new activity and a new post on a thread that I am following.

That is what alerts are for, they show up at the top of the page for any threads you are following. There are a variety of options to configure these as well as the buttons at the top of the page.

As much as I love DVinfo, I'm sad to see how the quantity and quality of posts has declined over the years. Back when I started, this was a really active place with insightful technical discussions in all areas. For sure, some of these still exist, but so many less. There are only a few new posts each day, recently there have been days with no new posts.

And (sorry) the bulk of the threads in the past year were created by one individual who was encouraged by a handful of other members pandering to that person's "issues". Happily, it looks like he has not been very active recently. But those long threads do no service to the site IMO, wouldn't be surprised if they drove people away. I know that I was reluctant to even check in here while those threads were so active.

Anyway, the reason DVinfo is such a great site is because of Chris. Haven't heard much from him recently, I'm sure he is busy with other things. But maybe - just MAYBE - a refresh of the site design would help draw new, younger members? Without them, sites tend to wither and die, just like the old f*rts who inhabit them (myself included, I'm 72). I'm also a moderator at gpsreview.net and that site is all but dead, mainly because average people just use their phones today and don't buy dedicated GPS devices. The other major GPS forum (gpspassion.com) suddenly disappeared without warning a few months ago - they didn't even give the moderators a heads-up. These sites with predominately old male membership are starting to look very dated in today's world.

I think there could be some parallels here, people are using phones instead of buying consumer video cameras today. But there's still a need for forums like this and it would warm my heart to see more new members and more interesting threads here at DVinfo.

JMHO of course, but it's something that's been on my mind for awhile.

Haha, DVinfo - last refuge of the grumpy old men! Honestly guys, I don't understand what you're talking about. I'm a mod on two forums that switched to Xenforo and think it's great. I also like the dark themes, nice in a darkened room (like where I edit video). But there's an option to choose either light or dark.

I'm okay with XenForo, but one went to that briefly then switched to a Drupal CMS system. It's awful.

Coming back to my earlier point, look at all the space that is being used in this thread by people simply saying they agree with the OP. That's just a waste IMO, a "like" button would accomplish the same thing without taking up so much space with "+1" type comments.

-1

Boyd - I don't get it. Where is all that wasted space?

After looking over the posts with the numerical integer in lieu of the like button, pretty much everyone wrote something of value; such as their view, their opinion, or even contributed something else. The added prose that may be taking up space helps with the discussion so others can get an increased idea of where they are coming from.

So, if the only thing that was left was a "un like" button (the same as a like button), who would know what was liked? or unliked? Or why. Guess I don't understand "the wasted space" thing.

By the way, I often go to the Apple Communities web site(s) even though I don't like their forum presentation. Talk about wasted space! Font, I like this font better than theirs. On the other hand, they do have some very helpful moderators and I pretty much always get my questions answered by someone.

Wasted space???

My point was that a "like" button allows people to show their agreement/support without actually creating a post that has separate lines for:

thread name
date
user name
group
join date
location
number of posts
status

On my 32" screen at 92dpi, that takes up about 1.75 inches of vertical space at a minimum. Everyone who "likes" a post is displayed on a single line at the bottom of the original post. "Joe Video likes this" seems pretty equivalent to Joe Video creating a post such as "Yes, I agree completely - nice job!"

Sorry, I don't understand this part:

So, if the only thing that was left was a "un like" button (the same as a like button), who would know what was liked? or unliked?

Anyway, seems like you guys just don't "like" my point, so I've said my piece. As I posted earlier, Chris was never in favor of "likes" or "smilies" in the past. But they are features that are standard on most forums today, and I would use them here if available.

My point was that a "like" button allows people to show their agreement/support without actually creating a post that has separate lines for:

thread name
date
user name
group
join date
location
number of posts
status

Okay, I *think* I got it now.


Sorry, I don't understand this part:
On a re-read, guess it should have been written better.


Anyway, seems like you guys just don't "like" my point, so I've said my piece. As I posted earlier, Chris was never in favor of "likes" or "smilies" in the past. But they are features that are standard on most forums today, and I would use them here if available.
Boyd - You're correct about other sites that have lots of traffic having these cute symbols, and, Yes, it does take up less space, and, Yes, it is fast. On the sailboat site I go to I've used the symbols but infrequently. Some people use them a lot. In fact, one time I was actually ostrasized, so to speak, for not tagging a post with a "like" even though I wrote a post that supported him. Some members seem to "collect likes" and he was one. Guess I'm not of fan of going to that extreme.

Apple has expanded their repertoire of symbols because its in vogue, I guess. On the iPhone its faster and easier to click on the symbol than to write a message. The female sex who seem to always be on their phone, even while in a crosswalk on a busy street, seem to use them a lot. At least the ones in my circle, they pepper my Messages with 'em.

grew up with a 120 box camera, Argus 35, Standard 8 (still have them all), Fortran IV, punched cards, but you're more into this than I am so maybe a small change would modernize the look here. I personally don't need them but I'm sure they would get used. Otherwise, I like this layout better than the Sailboat. com site and especially better than the Apple Communities site. The Mac forum is okay, been to it but only for information, never joined due to all the tracking cookies.

There are a few problems that have been compounding the lack of traffic. One is the virus that limited opportunities for actually doing video by some, the wedding group to be sure. Another is the transition from tape and SD > digital HDD and 1080 > digital SSD > and 4K in a short space of time, at least compared to 8mm and Super 8. These changes resulted in an upgrade frenzy (well, for some) and numerous trade shows for gear.

Maybe that has started to level off, or even decline. Sales of video cams has certainly declined and now everybody has a cam on their smart phone. A site like this is probably "over the heads" of many smart phone cam users; if they can't even hold it properly that is a good sign [they don't know what they're doing].

Having said that, there have been some good videos using a smart phone and one I was very impressed with was a Argentine guy who rode his bike/bicycle from the Arctic Sea down to near the Canadian border with the US. No stabilization but the content and presentation was super. He would have been a good candidate here for improving his video. Its a balancing act between kit and the situation; one wouldn't use the smart phone as the main cam for a wedding or use a high-end cam on a surfboard.

Your thought and post was good because the discussion is needed. I'm sure we would like to see more postings, but not necessarily becoming Grand Central for smart phone users. So ...

:) Boyd likes this

Regarding smartphone video, I did a 4-hour 3-camera shoot with 8-track audio of a "family concert" last weekend and am just starting to edit. Two of the "cameras" were phones and the other was my old XDCAM-EX1. Was using a "PivoPod" motorized mount with app on the phone for AI tracking.

We're a "theatre family": grand daughter is already in an intensive professional dance training program, my daughter has a BFA in Music Theatre, Son in Law is an actor/musician, my ex is a costume designer and I'm a set/lighting desigher/techie. Lots of fun - but exhausting! Anyway, I have some thoughts on this and will start a thread about it in the appropriate forum here soon. I'd like to see more discussion of this kind of setup here, but will say that I actually learned about Filmic Pro from a couple posts here at DVinfo, and it's great, even on my old iPhone.

A number of forums have changed software recently, as long as the "corporate" colours remain similar, the change usually doesn't that much impact. I suspect they're usually updates of their current forum software.

I know one cinematography that updated their software in the last year and there appears to be little impact other than a few comments at the time; There's still a steady flow of new members. The overall graphic appearance stayed similar, but with a few layout changes.

A NLE's forum is going through a change to another make of forum software. I gather this will have major changes, but it's a big operation moving everything over, so that the old forum contents can continue to be accessed.

I don't know what the impact will be on the regular users, I suspect there'll be complaints from some and a few hiccups when it goes online.

Most important for me in forums is the ability to press one button and get all the new posts since the last time I was on the forum. Then either automatically mark all as read or have a button to select " all read"

DVXuser and Grass Valley EDIUS forums updated software and neither have effectively retained these features. Very annoying. Still go but it is becoming tedious. Surely it cannot be that hard to include something that was there before.

I know it's been awhile but I've been following this thread and thinking pretty hard about it.

The harsh fact of the matter is that the forum software is indeed long overdue for a badly-needed upgrade. However...

Most important for me in forums is the ability to press one button and get all the new posts since the last time I was on the forum. Then either automatically mark all as read or have a button to select " all read"

...this feature and many others will most definitely be retained.

The general look and feel of the current version is going to be carried forward as much as the migration to a new platform will allow. I can promise you that.

There's no timeline I can state right now for any of this, but it certainly is pending.

Hope this helps,

Haha, DVinfo - last refuge of the grumpy old men!

You are not after cashcowing me into buying a new computer I hope. This forum has worked just fin over the years for me. I don't want to be dragged kicking and screaming into some new tech that is going to be a cost-burden.

Then again, I am the self-confessed luddite.

This forum ain't broke.

Andrew

But it looks like they’re going to fix it Andrew :)

Btw has the idea of a ‘speech recognition’ feature come up, or is that in the 2 hard basket. I don’t believe any other video site has it. You might say ‘but speech recognition is for vision impaired people, on a video site?’

But that’s just the point, a new feature for a new audience not available anywhere else.

Cheers.

This forum ain't broke.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but the forum software is indeed antiquated, and my host is constantly urging me to update it. Google urges me to update it. It ain't broke in that it's still functioning (for now), but it can't even run the current version of PHP and that's gotta be rectified.


But it looks like they’re going to fix it Andrew.

Ain't no "they."

I'm the only one here.

It's gonna get a new engine and transmission, but the overall look and feel will be kept as familiar as possible.

I'm entertaining all sorts of suggestions, so keep 'em coming please. Hope this helps,

The forum I moderate is switching to a new version with it being hosted as part of the new upgrade. Seems very expensive but the mods and admins who understand these things think it worth it. I use about 6 forums regularly. Not one is nicer to use after the upgrading because it’s full of features I hate in visual formats I hate and my old preferences for using forums get lost in the quest for modernity! I guess this is what kills more forums than the technical reasons.

As long as we can still search past posts, I'm OK with a change. As you say, it will look similar to this one.
I'm in another forum for my car, and it's a palaver just to start a new post.

The EDIUS and DVXuser forums I am sure have the same engine. The change is a backwards step on both. For me they are both worse than they were before. Comments suggest they are better on phones and tablets. Not sure for me as I always use my PC to read and on that they are worse. The most annoying thing is that to "mark all read" one has to go to the main menu and scroll all the way to the bottom to find that button. At least DVXuser has now a new post button but EDIUS forum is still a mess. With the change please put both "new posts" and "mark read" at the top of the page. The Blackmagic forum still works fine I just hope they do not change that too.

Ron has hit it I think - forum software now has to be nice on phones and tablets first, so the portrait format improves things a little. I hate forums on phones though - it's so tricky to view. Google kept insisting my own website was mobile unfriendly and went on and on every visit about changing it, and the content works great on computers but I've had to include some mobile/tablet pages (that merely link to the real ones) just to get Google off my back. I like big and uncluttered.

With the change please put both "new posts" and "mark read" at the top of the page.

That's just as important to me as well, so... I guarantee it.


Not one is nicer to use after the upgrading because it’s full of features I hate in visual formats I hate and my old preferences for using forums get lost in the quest for modernity! I guess this is what kills more forums than the technical reasons.

What if I can show you the new version, ahead of time before it goes live, and get your feedback on it. Address whatever objections or issues that come up, get those rectified or at least explained, and try to tailor it to whatever the regular crowd here sees fit to endorse... so that there aren't any nasty surprises later.

This offer goes out to anyone DVi member who's interested, not just you two.

Bit late to this thread. Say Chris, why not announce prizes for the best members ideas you use in the updated site eg; T-shirts with
DV Info printed on the front.

Cheers.

That's just as important to me as well, so... I guarantee it.

What if I can show you the new version, ahead of time before it goes live, and get your feedback on it. Address whatever objections or issues that come up, get those rectified or at least explained, and try to tailor it to whatever the regular crowd here sees fit to endorse... so that there aren't any nasty surprises later.

This offer goes out to anyone DVi member who's interested, not just you two.

I'm in.

Also, I run my own webserver and it's still possible to set an older version of PHP to a single account. Google might complain but the software will still run beautifully despite that version of PHP no longer getting security updates. It's gotta be pretty dang secure by that stage anyway.

Andrew

Yes Chris I would be happy to pass comments if that would be useful.

That's just as important to me as well, so... I guarantee it.




What if I can show you the new version, ahead of time before it goes live, and get your feedback on it. Address whatever objections or issues that come up, get those rectified or at least explained, and try to tailor it to whatever the regular crowd here sees fit to endorse... so that there aren't any nasty surprises later.

This offer goes out to anyone DVi member who's interested, not just you two.

That would be nice and maybe other members would then flag up what they consider the really things the new one can do, that perhaps deserve a go, but I suspect we all use this one differently, so my unused feature is somebody else’s mainstay.

I spent ten minutes yesterday composing a helpful post to a guy who’d bought an elderly mixer on another forum. What the forum did was present it as a current post, it turned out he’d bought in new in 2004 and keywords had dragged it up. When I realised I couldn’t edit it or delete it, and I posted a short “I hate this……..” in frustration. The site owner got crazily defensive and we’ve fell out after 20 years. I suspect the advantages and improvements he got just caused the huge drop off in existing members and the number of new member help posts with no answers has risen. Very sad. It’s recording.org if you want to see how it looks and works.

I'm currently involved in testing the new forum for the NLE. The original software hadn't been updated since about 2010 and the change to different software, rather than just an update has involved a lot of work,

I don't know how the forum users will react to the new forum, since they use it in a rather complex way, with links to other threads and quite a few inserted images and videos. I imagine there will be complaints, if the old links don't work as they used to.

The forum mechanics seem to be an improvement on the old forum and the appearance appears clean and easy to read. However, it is different, so is open to the shock of the new.

Since Chris started 20yrs ago, people now have many more choices with their time, more sites, podcasts, audio books, sophisticated on line games. At the Emmys the other day, streaming services won the majority of the awards and you pay for those.

But I think the biggest threat to this site is the improving cameras in smart phones, many people can’t afford a video camera plus a phone, so the phone is their choice and it’s more convenient. We should have a smart phone forum for video, apps, etc.

Cheers.

Chris, will it be as 'simple' as performing an upgrade to the vBulletin software and tweaking the install?

This should enable you to maintain the rich history of internal links and other stuff you don't want breaking whilst giving the multiple device native display/support that the current software lacks.

Andrew

I don't think it's just about phones, other sites, even ones that were cinematography sites are lively with posts, including both film and video.

Must be the season, Red is up with a new look. https://www.reduser.net/ but then they make their own video cameras - that helps.

One or two new posts in 4 days, we need new features that attract members and viewers.

Cheers.

Increasing the footfall is key to this.

The NLE forum has, for technical reasons, prevented new users from posting for the last few months on the old forum. When the new forum software is up and running it's hard to tell the impact this lull will be, certainly the traffic is currently down. So, it's unknown if the flood gates will open or if there will be a slow drip of new members.

The lesson from this is to keep your forum software up to date. otherwise you could be into a lot of pain.

The other issue is that after a few months people will have learnt new internet browsing habits at other sites and may not necessarily come back. Gotta have all bugs ironed out at launch time.

(I'm sure Chris will be on top of this.)

Andrew

I think that's perhaps the thing Brian. Lots of little changes rather than cling on and then the shock is too much. Oddly - the forum I just left I've replaced with a similar one that has a much higher usage level, but has a wider spread of coverage. I never bothered with it too much because I thought many of it's interest areas were uninteresting - but now I've started, I'm quite comfy there.

I'm a member of the Guild of Television Camera Professionals - and their forum is simply horrible - it's as close as it can be to the old listserv bulletin boards, with topic threading and ancient processes. The membership were asked what they wanted and the needs were so wide - nothing suited everyone, so what we have is the worst suit all fit possible. Everyone still is required to put their name, location and contact phone number on every post, because the forum does not even have a click on info box where if interested, people could get that info. There is also a facebook group - and the users of both clearly do not read both! Everybody secretly knows how terrible it is, but because people pay for membership, everyone's views are valid!

The other issue is that after a few months people will have learnt new internet browsing habits at other sites and may not necessarily come back. Gotta have all bugs ironed out at launch time.

The change is taking place under new ownership, so they're updating everything on the web site, since it wasn't a priority for the previous owners. I suspect they discovered more and more difficulties once they were into the change over.

Having said that, the new forum software does fit in with the look of the new web site, so is probably a good investment in the longer term.

That would be nice and maybe other members would then flag up what they consider the really things the new one can do, that perhaps deserve a go, but I suspect we all use this one differently, so my unused feature is somebody else’s mainstay.

I spent ten minutes yesterday composing a helpful post to a guy who’d bought an elderly mixer on another forum. What the forum did was present it as a current post, it turned out he’d bought in new in 2004 and keywords had dragged it up. When I realised I couldn’t edit it or delete it, and I posted a short “I hate this……..” in frustration. The site owner got crazily defensive and we’ve fell out after 20 years. I suspect the advantages and improvements he got just caused the huge drop off in existing members and the number of new member help posts with no answers has risen. Very sad. It’s recording.org if you want to see how it looks and works.

White text on a black background is a total turn off for me plus so much wasted screen real estate... & that's just looking at the first screen.

What if I can show you the new version, ahead of time before it goes live, and get your feedback on it. Address whatever objections or issues that come up, get those rectified or at least explained, and try to tailor it to whatever the regular crowd here sees fit to endorse... so that there aren't any nasty surprises later.

This offer goes out to anyone DVi member who's interested, not just you two.


+1 on that! Gets my vote for sure. That would be a good way to shake the frum down before commissioning it. If it's good enough for the Navy with a new warship where things have to work correctly once the ship is commissioned it's good enough for me.

Chris Young

Clearly something is going on - four forums I use are having the same discussions, so the software folk are driving the changes I suspect. Old is not always bad.

It appears that you need to update the forum software, otherwise you may find yourself with aspects of the software which isn't supported over time.