I'm working on a project with a composer, but some instruments are hard to sound natural, since we are using pre-recorded samples, rather than have musicians play for us. But some instruments, like the harmonica or bass flute for example, are really hard to edit together, to make it sound like they are being played naturally.

Would a more experienced audio editor help perhaps, if anyone knows more about this?

Oh no - here we go again. The problem here is you don't have a musician, just an composer who clearly is music technology incompetent. When you use prerecorded samples, they have to be played. By a musician. As if they are a real instrument - which they are.

Cinematic Oboe - YouTube

This track has not used a single microphone on real instruments played live - it is entirely artificial played by me on keyboards in the studio, and few people ever realised I suspect. To be honest, it doesn't really matter - it's what it sounds like that is important. If you don't have people who can do this working for you - find some!

Oh okay but how is a real musician supposed to play pre-recorded samples though? Or what do you mean exactly? you are saying that a real musician has to play the samples on a computer of the recordings?

ryan demo on Vimeo

Harmonica and bass flute - although that is a very strange combination so I added a few other woods. Shot
on my phone. NO editing - just recorded what I played. You can see my left hand and the right, plus if you stop it, you can probably see the screens. You have to play it, NOT edit it, to make a harmonica work.

Edit. Forgot to turn metronome off sorry!

Oh okay I see what you mean. I feel that there is something the harmonica is missing and I found out it was called 'trilling', in musical terms. The harmonica has trilling in this example:

Once Upon A Time In The West - Man With A Harmonica - YouTube

But do you know how to create the trilling, since we have been having trouble with that?

Sigh! This is like when I was a music teacher!

First thing there are NO trills. Just three repeated notes in the motif. The thing with this type of thing is to think about how instruments work. Harmonicas can pitch bend on the draw, it doesn’t work the same way on the blow. So you need for this to play it for real a chromatic harmonica, the type made famous by Larry Adler, and probably a Hohner. The E-C-D, to the E Bend is the vital bit with the pitch bend on the D, often starting not quite on D, but half way between it and the next note above so more like an Eb sliding up to E. Take this bend and slap loads of warm reverb on it. Done. Frankly, if this is beyond your technical skill to knock up, you could with average musical ability record a real harmonica doing that with five minutes practice on the harmonica.

I’ve got a chromatic harmonica here, you need two kinds of modulation to mimic it. You can modulate frequency, as in changing the shape of your embouchure and then wobble your hand to amplitude modulate it.

Frankly you could set this as a task to 18 yr olds in college and they would knock it up in an hour or two.

I would advise caution however. Harmonicas are fatally linked to westerns. The movie world find it difficult to break it away. If your movie is in a desert, with clear sky’s, and people ride horses, it works. It’s risky for any other usage. To much a cliche sound in my view. To record that clip, the first thing tha5 came into my head was that western sound.

On one short film I made the composer created his own samples (these may have been chords) using musicians he knew, the piano was also selected for its "sound". The next short I did with him he created an entire orchestra using the samples he already had.

I'm not sure if he played the piano itself for the recording (as against a sample). because there was an element of performance involved. The funders like the temp track, so the composer offered it as an option, however, the "performance" didn't match the temp track, while the "performance" on his own composition matched the feel of the temp track.

Don't get locked into the music too soon, the final film may take you in a different direction.

How about this harmonica, Ryan. Not so westernish?
https://www.eastanglianradio.com/harm.mp3

You're probably too young to know what song it's from.

Paul, since we’re here and derailment is par for the course in these threads, do you think ALL instruments can be sampled realistically, or at least well enough to fool most folks? Drums are a given, ditto piano. I play guitar and bass so I have those covered. But I have tried things with horns/wind instruments samples and they just dont sound right....easiest way to put is too digital/synth-y.

Couple things may the culprit here... first off these are the samples included with Logic (Logic comes with a huge sample library), so perhaps their quality is inferior to dedicated sample packs by whoever makes them.

Second, even though I dont know jack about wind instruments, I know they each have a limited range and Logic doesnt put a limit on that range when you trigger the samples...i.e you can play an oboe or something as high in pitch or low as you want but since a real one only go low as x and as high as y, pitches above and below those are going to sound increasingly fake/bad/digital/strained.

Third is my weak understanding of music theory/arrangement/composition. Good enough for simple rock, but if you start trying to do something with layers of horns that are used in a way a real composer would never use them, youre probably going to get less than stellar results.

I can post an example later if you want.

Hmm that's a good question. Some instruments can get away with the mimicry hurried in the mix, but the one that jumps out as always badly done are saxophones. They ALWAYS sounds like a really good and expensive Kazoo! The range thing used to be a give-away, but now far less so because since Kontakt came on the market, the way samples are presented stop you making these mistakes, and they will only play in the correct range. If anyone is interested in composing - search out Guy Michelmore on Youtube. He is an ex-TV journalist who is now a full time composer for TV and movies and is also tech savvy, so his videos are excellent - plus he is wild eccentric and mega talented. You can watch him compose and thanks to him mainly, I now use loads of Spitfire products and they get recorded in the worlds best studios, by the worlds best musicians (Don't forget I'm a Brit). They play properly, once you get the idea of how to play them.

Most bad music is not dependent on the absolute audio quality, but on the playing. Saxes are terrible in general, but if you play them right - people don't notice. I've got a few guitar sample packages and if they are used properly, you cannot tell. Even I get confused which is real sometimes when I press play. Oboes are pretty good now, as are most woodwind. Saxes are tricky because you can blow them wild, you can change the pitch, change the tone - all with your mouth. Oboes can't really do vibrato, just tremolo. A little with a good player, but not a lot. You hear people using modulation on oboes and it gives the game away. Logic samples like some of the cubase ones that are free are ensemble patches - they're fine layered up, but useless in general for featured instruments. Once you start to buy serious packages - and we can easily be talking 500+ Pounds, not Dollars - and you get some amazing stuff. Some of the piano instruments have a Steinway, and one has an American Steinway and a British Steinway - same piano, same design but subtly different sound.

Pianos are a good example - the giveaway is many people don't have a sustain pedal. That is the essential feature for realistic piano.

When you start to do composing, the usual fault is too many notes. Think a string quartet - the most you have is 4 instruments normally only playing one note - so when you play block chords it fights and sounds less realistic. More later.

In the words of a famous man, ok thanks. I have definitely heard the kazoo thing.

Sigh! This is like when I was a music teacher!

First thing there are NO trills. Just three repeated notes in the motif. The thing with this type of thing is to think about how instruments work. Harmonicas can pitch bend on the draw, it doesn’t work the same way on the blow. So you need for this to play it for real a chromatic harmonica, the type made famous by Larry Adler, and probably a Hohner. The E-C-D, to the E Bend is the vital bit with the pitch bend on the D, often starting not quite on D, but half way between it and the next note above so more like an Eb sliding up to E. Take this bend and slap loads of warm reverb on it. Done. Frankly, if this is beyond your technical skill to knock up, you could with average musical ability record a real harmonica doing that with five minutes practice on the harmonica.

I’ve got a chromatic harmonica here, you need two kinds of modulation to mimic it. You can modulate frequency, as in changing the shape of your embouchure and then wobble your hand to amplitude modulate it.

Frankly you could set this as a task to 18 yr olds in college and they would knock it up in an hour or two.

I would advise caution however. Harmonicas are fatally linked to westerns. The movie world find it difficult to break it away. If your movie is in a desert, with clear sky’s, and people ride horses, it works. It’s risky for any other usage. To much a cliche sound in my view. To record that clip, the first thing tha5 came into my head was that western sound.

Oh okay, I can try editing it like that. I just thought that the harmonica would sound good for eerie suspense like how it does in that clip. I don't recall hearing it much in Westerns, but I would have to rewatch Westerns I have seen to remember. I do not mean to scream Western necessarily, just go for a suspense sounding music, and thought it would work. I didn't think of the harmonica as a cliche though, because I haven't heard it in am movie, that I can recall for so long, that I thought it might be a rivival.

On one short film I made the composer created his own samples (these may have been chords) using musicians he knew, the piano was also selected for its "sound". The next short I did with him he created an entire orchestra using the samples he already had.

I'm not sure if he played the piano itself for the recording (as against a sample). because there was an element of performance involved. The funders like the temp track, so the composer offered it as an option, however, the "performance" didn't match the temp track, while the "performance" on his own composition matched the feel of the temp track.

Don't get locked into the music too soon, the final film may take you in a different direction.

Perhaps I am getting locked in soon, but since I am doing rewrites, deciding and budgeting on music now helps me rewrite, if I can hear the music in the scene, if that makes sense. I was also doing a budget on how much the instrument packages would cost. Plus I figure, since covid is preventing me from shooting, I might as well do other things in the project at the moment though...

How about this harmonica, Ryan. Not so westernish?
https://www.eastanglianradio.com/harm.mp3

You're probably too young to know what song it's from.
That's not bad. It has a bit of electronic or electric sound to it, or maybe some sort of post-processing? And no, I don't know what song it's from :).

Hmm that's a good question. Some instruments can get away with the mimicry hurried in the mix, but the one that jumps out as always badly done are saxophones. They ALWAYS sounds like a really good and expensive Kazoo! The range thing used to be a give-away, but now far less so because since Kontakt came on the market, the way samples are presented stop you making these mistakes, and they will only play in the correct range. If anyone is interested in composing - search out Guy Michelmore on Youtube. He is an ex-TV journalist who is now a full time composer for TV and movies and is also tech savvy, so his videos are excellent - plus he is wild eccentric and mega talented. You can watch him compose and thanks to him mainly, I now use loads of Spitfire products and they get recorded in the worlds best studios, by the worlds best musicians (Don't forget I'm a Brit). They play properly, once you get the idea of how to play them.

Most bad music is not dependent on the absolute audio quality, but on the playing. Saxes are terrible in general, but if you play them right - people don't notice. I've got a few guitar sample packages and if they are used properly, you cannot tell. Even I get confused which is real sometimes when I press play. Oboes are pretty good now, as are most woodwind. Saxes are tricky because you can blow them wild, you can change the pitch, change the tone - all with your mouth. Oboes can't really do vibrato, just tremolo. A little with a good player, but not a lot. You hear people using modulation on oboes and it gives the game away. Logic samples like some of the cubase ones that are free are ensemble patches - they're fine layered up, but useless in general for featured instruments. Once you start to buy serious packages - and we can easily be talking 500+ Pounds, not Dollars - and you get some amazing stuff. Some of the piano instruments have a Steinway, and one has an American Steinway and a British Steinway - same piano, same design but subtly different sound.

Pianos are a good example - the giveaway is many people don't have a sustain pedal. That is the essential feature for realistic piano.

When you start to do composing, the usual fault is too many notes. Think a string quartet - the most you have is 4 instruments normally only playing one note - so when you play block chords it fights and sounds less realistic. More later.

Well actually we just decided to use a bass sax for part of the music. I think the only instrumentalist I know is a guitar player, and a piano player. So I might be able to get a real musician playing for those, but I feel everything else, may have to be pre-recorded samples, but is that bad, or will it sound bad for woodwinds and brass then?

You don't understand. Samples are not bad. You can have a 3 million dollar Stradivari violin sample that will sound amazing played on a keyboard by somebody who knows how, and for most people, indistinguishable from the real instrument being recorded - because of course thats how the sample get recorded.

Does your composer have a DAW with piles of sample libraries?
Is he able to use them properly?

I'm lost because I assumed your composer must be able to play surely? What are you playing these samples on? You only know one instrumentalist in addition to the composer, surely? I'm wondering why the composer is struggling with such basic music fundamentals?
I've been madly trying to get stuff published over the past few days so try this one - the flute is sample based, the piano is real, the bass is real and the drums are samples - can you tell?
https://youtu.be/h_5EwHaWWMw

You're spending too much time worrying about budgeting things.

There are a number of instruments used for suspense. It's matter of the sound that fits the world you're creating and the final film may be very different to how you conceived it while writing it.

Yeah that's true, I just thought I should have some idea of what I want beforehand, for when I do the execution of it. I know there are other instruments for suspense, but for some reason I can't put into words, I thought this one would best for some parts.

You don't understand. Samples are not bad. You can have a 3 million dollar Stradivari violin sample that will sound amazing played on a keyboard by somebody who knows how, and for most people, indistinguishable from the real instrument being recorded - because of course thats how the sample get recorded.

Does your composer have a DAW with piles of sample libraries?
Is he able to use them properly?

I'm lost because I assumed your composer must be able to play surely? What are you playing these samples on? You only know one instrumentalist in addition to the composer, surely? I'm wondering why the composer is struggling with such basic music fundamentals?
I've been madly trying to get stuff published over the past few days so try this one - the flute is sample based, the piano is real, the bass is real and the drums are samples - can you tell?
https://youtu.be/h_5EwHaWWMw

Oh my composer can play guitar, and keyboard instruments. But I know two other people one has a real piano, and one has more guitar selections, if they would be useful as well. I and the composer only just started not too long ago, but so far, the viols sound really real to me. But the guitar and harmonica sound kind of synthetic to me. Maybe we just need better samples?

And no I couldn't tell what was samples in your work there, it all sounded real to me.

The idea I suppose is to stop thinking about the instruments but the sounds that come out of them? I have loads of samples and the VSTi instruments that play them that produce the most weird and wonderful sounds - and the names try to explain what you'll hear bit fail. The funniest to me was a commission to produce two and a half minutes of sound for rainforest visuals. I found one labelled as evolving soundscape - it was number 500 or so in one instrument. I pressed one key and held it down for 150 seconds - it was a great ever changing forest-evoking sound that took absolutely no skill whatsoever apart from the patience to audition the 499 that didn't work. I like to think this is what I was paid for. The client was very happy and it sounded amazing.

The harmonica music was harmonica with three different reverbs, and two harmonicas, slightly different, layered together - and is the intro to a Supertramp song from the 70s!

Realistically - if your composer can play guitar and keys, that's all you need if you have the hardware and software.

withour listening, was the Supertramp song “Take the long way home”?

No - good guess though - think about school?

I confess I only know their radio staples. So if its not long way home, goodbye mary, logical song, or the one about kippers for breakfast, Im lost

Paul - re Post #13

"Masquerade"
That was really, beautiful!!!

Thanks John. It’s a bit odd actually. It’s a project from years ago, mixed with recent. We had a project almost finished to do a Carpenters tribute, and it took months to get the harmony parts finished, so long in fact our lead lady by this time had started a family and touring was totally out, so we gave up and shelved it. While recording some other stuff recently I played the track to a different singer, who is more musical theatre in style, and she wanted to sing it. We did a couple of takes for fun then moved on. Grant the classical pianist played just the solo section for me when my fingers just wouldn’t do it. Again, in the middle of his classical projects. He doesn’t even remember playing it, and has never seen Ellie for twenty years. The beauty of digital is that you can rescue stuff so simply. My recent experience with how music can be heard anywhere in the world by accident just made me dig out unfinished stuff and put it out there. In money terms, video seems to be a product that has sensible money attached. People are willing to pay for video shoots and treat it as a real thing. music is just music, and don’t want to pay for it. Very odd. They pay for Netflix’s, and all the other streaming services, but being asked to pay for playing music in shops here in the UK brings out very bad tempers?

Well after thinking about, if I use the harmonica the way it was played in Once Upon in the West, that movie plays it so uniquely that if I have a composer whip up the same thing, do you think it would be seen as ripping it off, since it's not often played that way, in that kind of tune?

Thanks John. It’s a bit odd actually. It’s a project from years ago, mixed with recent. We had a project almost finished to do a Carpenters tribute, and it took months to get the harmony parts finished, so long in fact our lead lady by this time had started a family and touring was totally out, so we gave up and shelved it. While recording some other stuff recently I played the track to a different singer, who is more musical theatre in style, and she wanted to sing it. We did a couple of takes for fun then moved on. Grant the classical pianist played just the solo section for me when my fingers just wouldn’t do it. Again, in the middle of his classical projects. He doesn’t even remember playing it, and has never seen Ellie for twenty years. The beauty of digital is that you can rescue stuff so simply. My recent experience with how music can be heard anywhere in the world by accident just made me dig out unfinished stuff and put it out there. In money terms, video seems to be a product that has sensible money attached. People are willing to pay for video shoots and treat it as a real thing. music is just music, and don’t want to pay for it. Very odd. They pay for Netflix’s, and all the other streaming services, but being asked to pay for playing music in shops here in the UK brings out very bad tempers?

It aint just the UK. People like to steal music the world over. All intellectual property, really. Many folks dont think of it as a “real” thing, because it isnt tangible the way say, a car is. Also cause digital can be copied an infinite number of times without depriving anyone of the original—-many people feel nothing has been “stolen.”

Well after thinking about, if I use the harmonica the way it was played in Once Upon in the West, that movie plays it so uniquely that if I have a composer whip up the same thing, do you think it would be seen as ripping it off, since it's not often played that way, in that kind of tune?

As long as the don't use the same notes in the same order you'll be fine, Many pieces of music are inspired by other pieces and that harmonica sound has been used in other films and commercials, however, it's usually done in a knowing way.

Oh okay, thanks, that makes sense.

Well when it was said before on here that a sax sounds like a kazoo, when trying to make it sound right with samples, since I was wanting a bass sax for part of the music, will this be a problem, for sounding real?

That's not my area, it's something that needs to be worked out with your composer, since all these things will depend on their skills.

Of course, you could use a musician to play the sax if samples are an issue.

No - that's not what I said Ryan. Saxophones are an instrument that has a very wide tonal range, and while you can easily sample one and for some songs it would be fine, it would be terrible in others. Only sax players know properly what I mean - It's not that the technology is deficient - how on earth can you cope with an instrument that you blow and also hum, growl and even shout into? At the same time as you play notes on the damn thing. Is there a parameter for recording these things, let alone recording a session? I suspect the closest would be acoustic modelling, but I doubt we're close yet, technology wise.

To be honest hiring a decent sax player is often cheaper. For me personally, it annoys me to not be able to play what I need to play. Having a nice virtual instrument would be great - but we don't have one yet!

Oh okay thanks. What do you mean when you say 'acoustic modelling', in that context?

As for looking for real musicians, they are hard to find in my area. All the musicians I know, choose to either play piano, guitar, or drum set, but cannot find any that know how to play other instruments so far.

Blimey Ryan - is your area really this short of creative people? However, your composer should be able to do all this, if he is a real composer and can play keys, has a computer and the right software.

Loads of my old students are musicians and technologists - what we're talking about really is the kind of thing that HUNDREDS of music enthusiasts do - this is not a rare hobby. Home studios and musical people are everywhere.

This probably isn't the place for this, but you have two broad methods of creating sounds in a hardware or software device. You have sampling - where you record every single note an instrument can play, one at a time, in every way imaginable. Quietly, through to loudest, raucus through to gentle, plucked, hit, pressed, blown, mangled - you name it. Then if you do it yourself, you spend hours manipulating these sounds so they blend and respond to your keyboard. Gently press an A2, and you use the quiet sample, hint the ky hard and it uses the loud one - use the expression control and it gradually changes from the quiet gentle sound to the mean and loud ones, an effortless mix. You might set key switches so a press of a non-sounding note selects one type of sound, but another key switch brings up a lovely legato, another gives you spiccato, another pizzicato etc etc. Some sample libraries are 50 or 60 Gb in size. The alternative is synthesis. There are no samples at all, but maths. Let's imagine a piano - we model it's acoustic properties. It's a string (or two or three strings) that get excited by being hit with a hammer - the hammer might be hard felt, or on a knackered piano, old soft felt, or even rock hard felt. This is what excites the string, in it's frame. What does the frame do? Provides resonance, sustain and gives body to the sound. When you press that note and hold it, it gradually dies away - or you release the note and a damper drops onto the string silencing it by stopping vibration. Synthesis does all this stuff with maths. Acoustic modelling can produce some really realistic instruments - sometimes better than sampling. They can also be easily modified. Some instruments use the maths in real life to produce their sound. Clarinets and oboes and flutes for example. Conical, or cylindrical bores. Some produce all the harmonics for each note, but others might emphasise odd numbered harmonics - hence why an oboe and clarinet sound different. Clarinets and saxophones have a single reed that vibrates, oboes have two reeds - they work differently and this can be modelled. You can have different tunings - so an out of tune piano can be created, and the degree of out of tune-ness controlled. Analgue synths used loads of oscillators to create amazing sounds, then Yamaha 'invented' FM synthesis that works totally differently (and was hugely more difficult to edit). So difficult in fact, that whenever Yamaha took one in for repair, it was rare to find anything new in the user banks. In the 80s - this meant with this new MIDI connection, stock sounds were in the charts all the time. These synths had rubbish real pianos, but really good electric simulations. They had good string simulations and pretty horrible brass.

There you go a potted version of synthesis and sampling.

Oh okay, but when you mentioned acoustic modelling before, you said you doubt we are there yet, technology wise. So does that mean acoustic modelling, is do-able or not therefore, is what I don't understand. Sorry, I was just seeing a contradiction there, or so it seemed, and I did not understand if it would work or not.

I can try to keep looking for musicians of the other instruments.

Ryan - why are you making this so hard? What do you want other musicians for? Unless you are now going to spend lots of money, and have the aptitude, recording real musicians for your projects is a daft thing too contemplate.

Non-musicians can buy affordable DAWs and some sample libraries and produce music, but it's musicianship you need. You haven't got it, so you need your composer to do it. Frankly, though, I'm very surprised he's struggling because I don't think I have come across a composer since the 90's who is not computer literate and has their own dedicated kit - and, we all like similar but different kit. Today, I'm replacing somebodies poorer violin sounds with mum better ones, which requires me to edit and replay some of it.

Is your composer able to do this stuff? If he is not - you seriously need to reconsider his composer label.

We are not at present able to model saxophones very well, and we're not able to use samples very easily - just a tricky example. Everything else seems to be possible. WHY ARE YOU STRESSING OVER THIS? It's for your composer to sort.

Oh okay I see. Sorry I don't mean to make this hard, just trying to understand more of it.

So the sax is an exception and is difficult compared to all the other instruments then pretty much.

I'm sorry Ryan - you're trying to put your rule book together again. I'm using the saxophone as a common instrument difficult to recreate. But equally, it's also difficult for a beginner to master the things it can do. everyone recognises that screaming kind of sound you can get - but beginners don't realise that to do that they have to actually hum, or kind of sing, and the sound that comes out is the breath through the reed, modulated by the hum/singing.

These things apply to other instruments too - like the difference between draw and blow on the harmonica. Trumpeters can split notes - that's also difficult to simulate. I've just bought a theremin - and it's going to take a while to master, but seems capable of creating the sounds from every sci-fi B moviemakers from the 50s.

How about the Ondes Martinot - another weird instrument from that era - Google that one.

The one thing beginners forget about mimicking/recreating real instruments is that you need to think about how they produce notes. Somebody mentioned range, and you can research this easily, and the lowest note is the vital one on pretty well every instrument. This is why 5 string basses are popular. The lowest note on a 4 string is an E - but many popular songs are in the easier to play keys so C is popular (the white note scale), but a Bass guitar only has a higher C, but a 5 string has a very low C (and the B below).

Other common mistakes are the bottom notes of clarinets, saxophones and other transposing instruments. People forget that if you play a low C on a tenor sax, it actually sounds a Bb, and an alto sounds an Eb. It also means that there are tonal changes to take into account. At some point you move from the lower register to the upper register, and when you do, the tone changes. So if you really want to mimic a sax, you might go up and then after the C, you play the D at the bottom of the upper register and it sounds different. A simple sax instrument played on the keyboard won't do this automatically, you have to edit. Some instruments are also very tricky to go from certain notes to certain notes - too many finger movements. If you do a slide down the fretboard on a guitar, that is NOT a pitchblend - it is a series of individual notes a fret apart - so you have to mimic that. Strings don't play chords, the create chords with other instruments. Beginners often get this very wrong. You have to write multiple separate melodies that merge to create chords, but in a quartet it would be two violins viola and cello - so they all sound different. A string patch with three or four notes all sound the same - unless its a very good sampler instrument when if you spread the four notes into two hands with more space between, it sounds better. You also in more orchestral arrangements with double basses, have them very often doubling the cello part, but lower.

Ryan - you like low instruments - you mentioned bass flute and bass clarinet I think. Remember these are niche instruments. They get added when numbers and budgets allow and are mainly texture. Bass flutes, for instance are rarely going to play critical parts because they are mild, and even perhaps weak instruments because they are big and rely on air across the lip plate to excite the air inside. If you have ever blown across a big jug, you find you cannot be loud - it's just more than a lung full at high pressure and doesn't;t sound nice. Bass clarinet doesn't sound very different from a bassoon played gently. You need to be careful with these less 'useful' instruments because they get lost. Remember that when they invented saxophones, musicians nearly went on strike in europe - they hated them because their design meant loud, brash and unbending - exactly the opposite of most orchestral instruments.

If you are vaguely musical and have some money to spend - I'd suggest Cubase elements - because it comes with useful sounds and can easily have VSTi instrument added - many of which are free or cheap and fan developed. The big boys like Spitfire even have really usable free sample packages - which encourage you to buy their expensive ones, which can cost the price of a brand new car! Some of the stuff are soundscapes and stuff even a non-musical person can use to create really useful music for video.

Your composer really should haver this stuff. I'm serious here - Look at people like Hans Zimmer - Music Technology people. Do watch the Guy Michelmore videos on Youtube - see how he creates emotion and tension. You'll also see how being a musician is critical for some things. You need musicians who can handle technology. Dinosaurs who cannot, are useless to you. Nobody nowadays has budget to record people as experiments. The big names do it in a computer, and then may well bring in 100 musicians, but their computer stuff is excellent. If people want - I'll happily link to stuff I've done (I never sell music, I licence it, so after a period, I get it back to do whatever I want with it) I won't put it up and waste space unless people want examples. I've just finished one and its been rejected - the client wanted a synth version of a Debussy piece - Golliwog's Cakewalk and I sent the advance copy off and he'd got the wrong piece of music. He's trying to find the name of the thing he wants - so it's wasted really. Still he's paying as it's his mistake. At least I didn't finish polishing it.

When I was examining this kind of thing, I remember vividly how awful some submissions were despite having great kit. It was simple mistakes that make it unrealistic.

I'm sorry Ryan - you're trying to put your rule book together again. I'm using the saxophone as a common instrument difficult to recreate. But equally, it's also difficult for a beginner to master the things it can do. everyone recognises that screaming kind of sound you can get - but beginners don't realise that to do that they have to actually hum, or kind of sing, and the sound that comes out is the breath through the reed, modulated by the hum/singing.

These things apply to other instruments too - like the difference between draw and blow on the harmonica. Trumpeters can split notes - that's also difficult to simulate. I've just bought a theremin - and it's going to take a while to master, but seems capable of creating the sounds from every sci-fi B moviemakers from the 50s.

How about the Ondes Martinot - another weird instrument from that era - Google that one.

The one thing beginners forget about mimicking/recreating real instruments is that you need to think about how they produce notes. Somebody mentioned range, and you can research this easily, and the lowest note is the vital one on pretty well every instrument. This is why 5 string basses are popular. The lowest note on a 4 string is an E - but many popular songs are in the easier to play keys so C is popular (the white note scale), but a Bass guitar only has a higher C, but a 5 string has a very low C (and the B below).

Other common mistakes are the bottom notes of clarinets, saxophones and other transposing instruments. People forget that if you play a low C on a tenor sax, it actually sounds a Bb, and an alto sounds an Eb. It also means that there are tonal changes to take into account. At some point you move from the lower register to the upper register, and when you do, the tone changes. So if you really want to mimic a sax, you might go up and then after the C, you play the D at the bottom of the upper register and it sounds different. A simple sax instrument played on the keyboard won't do this automatically, you have to edit. Some instruments are also very tricky to go from certain notes to certain notes - too many finger movements. If you do a slide down the fretboard on a guitar, that is NOT a pitchblend - it is a series of individual notes a fret apart - so you have to mimic that. Strings don't play chords, the create chords with other instruments. Beginners often get this very wrong. You have to write multiple separate melodies that merge to create chords, but in a quartet it would be two violins viola and cello - so they all sound different. A string patch with three or four notes all sound the same - unless its a very good sampler instrument when if you spread the four notes into two hands with more space between, it sounds better. You also in more orchestral arrangements with double basses, have them very often doubling the cello part, but lower.

Ryan - you like low instruments - you mentioned bass flute and bass clarinet I think. Remember these are niche instruments. They get added when numbers and budgets allow and are mainly texture. Bass flutes, for instance are rarely going to play critical parts because they are mild, and even perhaps weak instruments because they are big and rely on air across the lip plate to excite the air inside. If you have ever blown across a big jug, you find you cannot be loud - it's just more than a lung full at high pressure and doesn't;t sound nice. Bass clarinet doesn't sound very different from a bassoon played gently. You need to be careful with these less 'useful' instruments because they get lost. Remember that when they invented saxophones, musicians nearly went on strike in europe - they hated them because their design meant loud, brash and unbending - exactly the opposite of most orchestral instruments.

If you are vaguely musical and have some money to spend - I'd suggest Cubase elements - because it comes with useful sounds and can easily have VSTi instrument added - many of which are free or cheap and fan developed. The big boys like Spitfire even have really usable free sample packages - which encourage you to buy their expensive ones, which can cost the price of a brand new car! Some of the stuff are soundscapes and stuff even a non-musical person can use to create really useful music for video.

Your composer really should haver this stuff. I'm serious here - Look at people like Hans Zimmer - Music Technology people. Do watch the Guy Michelmore videos on Youtube - see how he creates emotion and tension. You'll also see how being a musician is critical for some things. You need musicians who can handle technology. Dinosaurs who cannot, are useless to you. Nobody nowadays has budget to record people as experiments. The big names do it in a computer, and then may well bring in 100 musicians, but their computer stuff is excellent. If people want - I'll happily link to stuff I've done (I never sell music, I licence it, so after a period, I get it back to do whatever I want with it) I won't put it up and waste space unless people want examples. I've just finished one and its been rejected - the client wanted a synth version of a Debussy piece - Golliwog's Cakewalk and I sent the advance copy off and he'd got the wrong piece of music. He's trying to find the name of the thing he wants - so it's wasted really. Still he's paying as it's his mistake. At least I didn't finish polishing it.

When I was examining this kind of thing, I remember vividly how awful some submissions were despite having great kit. It was simple mistakes that make it unrealistic.

Oh okay. I don't remember mentioning bass clarinet, or if I did, I must have changed my mind. For the bass flute, I wanted a multiphonic effect but is it possible to get those in samples? I see what you mean, that the musician has to sing into the instrument a certain way, but can you get samples, with different kinds of singing into the flute?

As far as instruments go, here are instruments I thought would sound good so far, for the score:

Violin, Viola, Cello, steel string acoustic, and electric
Trumpet
Trombone
Tuba
Synthesizer
Taikos
Snare
Bass Flute
Acoustic Piano
Electric Guitar, maybe acoustic
Xylophone
Harmonica
Bass Saxophone

We will probably add more, but this is what I had in mind so far, but would any of these be difficult to make sound good besides the bass sax, and possibly bass flute?

Ryan - you're trying to talk a language you don't know. Think about a few things. How on earth can you sing into a flute? That would be comical as we'd hear it. You're also not quite understanding the technique - you don't sing as in sing a melody - you might sing the note you are playing, or one harmonica linked, or you might growl - but you won't find a sax player in an orchestra doing this. They won't bend notes either. Your instrumentation list is a proper orchestra if you remove the synth part (and what is this going to be doing?) I think you might mean baritone saxophone. A bass sax does exist, but is an impossible instrument to blend in with others without being specially written for - and - I don't know anyone who has one! What is the role of the bass flute - because that is another rarity in historic or contemporary musical styles. No basses I note? Taiko? Really?

Not being funny - but what on earth have you in mind that needs a full orchestra - well, mostly full as it's severely lacking woodwind, and that bass flute won't be heard with all that brass.

What do you mean when you say multi-phonic? What effect do you want it to do? Flutes are pretty limited in effect styles - you can have double tonguing and if the player can do it, all kinds of flutters, but it's low and usually a bit feeble.

Do you have the music written? I get the impression you have just randomly picked a collection of mismatched instruments for some kinds of music.

Tell me about your composer? Is he producing this list for you? Please tell me you haven't picked them and given him the arm behind back job of writing for them?

Lastly - you've just not got this sample business at all. Go to the spitfire audio website and watch and listen to their products - they have all sorts of different packages, and none of them have the saxophone stuff. Forget it, I've confused you completely trying to explain why saxes don't sound good without massive work.

Some packages are orchestras. Some are individual instruments and others what they call combinations - useful collections. BUT you need to forget about individual samples, you buy a package. A stand alone collection that works with it's own small app in your DAW, or maybe as a Kontakt instrument. The problem with all this is that your composer will need to be able to use it. You can easily spend thousands on sample libraries and be disappointed but discover a freebie that works - BUT - for one project where what it does fits.

Beware mixing electric and synthesised instruments with traditional ones - they usually fight like mad.

Is this the music for your other topic - the Police rape legal thing?

https://distrokid.com/hyperfollow/pauljohnson/golliwogs-cakewalk-revisited

This is a link to a short bit of the weird synth thing - see the weirdness of mixing synths with real sounds.

Ryan - you're trying to talk a language you don't know. Think about a few things. How on earth can you sing into a flute? That would be comical as we'd hear it. You're also not quite understanding the technique - you don't sing as in sing a melody - you might sing the note you are playing, or one harmonica linked, or you might growl - but you won't find a sax player in an orchestra doing this. They won't bend notes either. Your instrumentation list is a proper orchestra if you remove the synth part (and what is this going to be doing?) I think you might mean baritone saxophone. A bass sax does exist, but is an impossible instrument to blend in with others without being specially written for - and - I don't know anyone who has one! What is the role of the bass flute - because that is another rarity in historic or contemporary musical styles. No basses I note? Taiko? Really?

Not being funny - but what on earth have you in mind that needs a full orchestra - well, mostly full as it's severely lacking woodwind, and that bass flute won't be heard with all that brass.

What do you mean when you say multi-phonic? What effect do you want it to do? Flutes are pretty limited in effect styles - you can have double tonguing and if the player can do it, all kinds of flutters, but it's low and usually a bit feeble.

Do you have the music written? I get the impression you have just randomly picked a collection of mismatched instruments for some kinds of music.

Tell me about your composer? Is he producing this list for you? Please tell me you haven't picked them and given him the arm behind back job of writing for them?

Lastly - you've just not got this sample business at all. Go to the spitfire audio website and watch and listen to their products - they have all sorts of different packages, and none of them have the saxophone stuff. Forget it, I've confused you completely trying to explain why saxes don't sound good without massive work.

Some packages are orchestras. Some are individual instruments and others what they call combinations - useful collections. BUT you need to forget about individual samples, you buy a package. A stand alone collection that works with it's own small app in your DAW, or maybe as a Kontakt instrument. The problem with all this is that your composer will need to be able to use it. You can easily spend thousands on sample libraries and be disappointed but discover a freebie that works - BUT - for one project where what it does fits.

Beware mixing electric and synthesised instruments with traditional ones - they usually fight like mad.

Is this the music for your other topic - the Police rape legal thing?

https://distrokid.com/hyperfollow/pauljohnson/golliwogs-cakewalk-revisited

This is a link to a short bit of the weird synth thing - see the weirdness of mixing synths with real sounds.

Oh okay, but there are real movie soundtracks though where they mix synth with real instruments, so if other movie soundtracks do it, then what's wrong with it?

Perhaps singing into the flute was the wrong term, but if you blow or hum, or do whatever, into a flute a certain way, certain sounds are created, so I guess it's all about finding samples of those kinds of sounds?

When I say multiphonic, it was a term the composer used. What I mean is this kind of flute effect at 0:41 into this clip:

Braveheart Soundtrack - Revenge - YouTube

He said it's called multiphonics, unless he is using the wrong term?

The bass flute is also being played in this clip at 0:38 into the clip:

The Replacement Killers soundtrack part 3 - YouTube

So if those movies can use a bass flute, then what is wrong with it?

As for a bass flute not standing out, I think it all depends on the track as there are movies where I could hear the bass flute, no problem, on the soundtrack.

The music is not written all yet, but we are going over what it sound like from temp tracks I have picked out for him, and those instruments that give those kinds of sounds, on the temp track.

As for the role if the bass flute, I don't know the "role", I just thought it would sound good on certain parts of the score, compared to scores I have heard from other movies.

As for the taiko, what's wrong with that? I feel it's a really low dramatic sounding drum, that is good for blood suspensful moments, so what's wrong with it?

I was told it was called a bass sax, but perhaps I was told wrong and it's a baritone I am looking for then. When you say it's impossible to blend with other music, I heard in other music, so what's wrong with it, or how is it impossible?

Yes this is for the score for the project I was talking about before, with the police, yes.

As far as buying libraries go, the composer has a library but he says that some of my instrument choices are not in there and I would have to get for him individually, such as the taiko and harmonica or sax so far, but is there anything wrong with that?

Again, the composer can listen to the temp tracks and hear the instruments being used. You don't need to go into this level of detail, unless you intend composing music yourself, this level of micromanagement will just piss off any good composer.

It's especially not required if you're still at the script writing stage.That's assuming that this is for the feature film.

The composer should be able to add instruments to their library, it's their job to do so, not yours, although you may have to pay for them.

There is no was of knowing if that really is a bass flute, and alto flute or a flute at all - it could easily be somebody blowing over the top of a bottle .It's a manipulation of an effects type sound. I'm amazed you can even find a sound like this, then track down what it's claimed to be? In the time you take on forums, you could have spent time creating this sound and have it done, rather than agonising about what to write in your film making rule book.

I took my flute - a normal ordinary flute, and played as quietly as I could, until it started to flutter and break up - then I dropped it by an octave, and added reverb - it's now an effect, not a real note. Is this the kind of thing you want to create?
https://www.eastanglianradio.com/flutefx2.mp3

The replacement killers clip - 38 seconds? Bass flute? Really?

It's a low woodwind sound, but I doubt it ever sounded like that.

Like many of your thoughts, you've got confused about how the thing works. Have you watched Guy Michelmore yet to see how it's done? Then you'll see why names mean very little. Multi-phonics by the way is a meaningless term for impressing people who ask questions. Omni-phonics is another. My claim to fame is inventing 'sonic coherence'. I was writing a qualification and was stuck for a word to describe that Eureka moment when it all comes together - and I was stuck badly. So, as a place holder, I wrote candidates must demonstrate sonic coherence .......... and I forgot to change it. It was being demonstrated in the UK for 5 years, by students at colleges and university. Not one person ever asked the exam board what it meant! These are the flowery descriptive words only the originator understands. A chap on Youtube compares microphones. His favourite word for some is 'papery' as in, this one sounds rather papery. I decided to test it out and used it in a forum post and again, nobody ever asked. I'm sure everyone nodded their heads and took their own understanding. My advice is never use words you cannot describe. Saying somebody else said it means you didn't understand, but wrote it in the rule book as a definition. Bass flutes are multiphonic. No. They're not. Theyre also not even a common instrument because they lack power and depth - but always sound 'windy' - which in this circumstance is what you are after. If a couple of trumpets start to play, the bass flautist might as well go home.

Oh okay thanks. I didn't intend to use the word multiphonic to impress, it was the word I was told by someone when I asked about it, so I was quoting them. My mistake. And yes, I wouldn't have the flute play the same time, as a trumpet for example.

I just wanted a low flute for some of the more quiet moments.

The effect you did is similar to what I am going for yes. The flute I heard on The Replacement Killers after doing more research is possibly a Bass native American flute. I am having trouble finding good samples for that instrument, but if I cannot find any, I might just settle for a bass flute instead, since it still producers a low flute like sound, nonetheless, or so I was thinking.

You're going about this very oddly Ryan. You're hung up on names, and many are names of convenience - A bass Native American flute. Or a panpipe, or an ocarina. I'm not sure there is a bass version of the Native American flute? There are certainly different size ones, but 'bass' is a contemporary tag applied to lower range instruments. Flute, or pipe? end excited flute, like a recorder, or cross excited like a flute - one has a labium, one doesn't (if you want to be technical) Realistically, it doesn't matter. The example I quickly recorded is actually more a mistake - I'm not a good flautist at all, and my tone goes windy by mistake quite easily.

I'm worried you are looking for complete samples and not musical samples? If you want a sound effect - then those are often called samples, and if you Google flute sample, you get a pile of random notes, separately recorded. I don't have any of these - I have proper musical samplers. Hundreds, or even thousands of individual samples that a player app puts together and switches between then seamlessly? These can be played. Individual samples are just effects and can't be played musically with any real success.

If your composer uses Kontakt instruments, he will need them in a certain format, but they are NOT universal. What are you using for these samples, because in the musicians world there are so, so many - I bet you are not looking for the right thing. Samples are a pain - in the office today I tried to load up some sounds that weren't on the machine, so if you want to swap files around between you and your composer, you both need the same packages.

Tell me about how you are doing these sample experiments.

You also say you won't have the flute play at the same time as a trumpet - but that isn't how you play music is it. How many well known pieces of music have a rule that says when a trumpet starts, something else stops? You are thinking about an entire orchestra and haven't any clue about balance and blend. This is way, way too difficult unless you are already a musician. If you aren't, why are you even doing this. You need to stop wanting to be a one man band, and get involved in every process. It's silly!

Oh well I thought it was normal for the director to give the composer temp tracks, of what they want the music to sound like, and go over what is it about the temp tracks that they like for the composer, thus in thi case the low flute sound.

Do directors not do that with a composer?

Yes and no, but they don't go into the detail you do, it's more about mood and various other things. The composer doesn't really need to have a detailed breakdown on the instruments it's more about what you're trying to emotionally convey at any point in the story and if the music can assist in doing this.

Also, underline anything that isn't coming across visually, action or performance wise.

You had that idea about pan pipes, and clearly that's where the flute idea cam from - but the composer needs the idea - in fact giving them a clip and saying you like the effect at say 3:01 is more useful than doing research into what it is, or probably isn't. What concerns me is that your composer seems so 'uncomposer-ish'

Remember that if you are unable to pay the real rate for the job, they will need to feel free to do what they do best, and you sound very difficult to work for? You want them to have a free hand but must incorporate all those disparate instruments - orchestra, synth, electric guitar and now unusual instruments like bass flutes. The fact that they don't appear in the popular mainstream packages show you how unusual they are? Musicians, actors, singers dancers, lighting designers and composers are all used to working to vague and unprofessionally explained briefs - they hate people muscling in on their world with detailed suggestions as most times it's clear it won't work, or worse, be impossible to dovetail in with the rest.

I remember having to not laugh when a Theatre Director was talking to internationally famous Lighting Designer Patrick Woodroffe. He nodded a lot, appeared to be listening, and despite all the clever technical talk, he just said "So you'd like it to be more Pink?". Pink wasn't a colour, it was a mood. The Director was so pleased he got it. Yes! That's it. The end product was more blue, more purple and a bit of yellow. No Pink. Director was happy.

Oh okay thanks. But are the sounds I want for the mood and the score, really so unsual, since I have heard those sounds in other movies? And yes, I would have to order library music samples of the instruments from other packages for it the composer, butI don't mind. But there movie soundtracks where the composers have no problem having certain instruments that are not the most mainstream, so I thought this was normal, when it comes to other movies. I mean if other movies have a low bass type flute in, why is that a complication to want to do as well?

Ryan - music is NOT sound effects. I can't do anything with a client who provides sound effects. Musicians do NOT use sound effects, they use sound samples that they can play - quietly, loudly, rhythmically dis-rhythmically, layered, isolated, detuned, blended, stretched and shrunk. Do you ever look at the suggestions I post. Look at British Drama Toolkit from Spitfire. Watch the video, watch how they create sounds you hear on TV and film and how those sounds are created. You are thinking sound effects all the time, and they are nothing to do with composition. For goodness sake - if you have a composer, and like certain types of sound, let the poor man work with musical tools.

Watch the clips of how Hans Zimmer composes, or Vangelis, or Morricone or even John Williams and others - they use music, not an off the shelf clip of a flute going woooooof.

You've got totally and utterly the wrong impression of what composition is all about. Composers sit with a clip maybe, or often just the written paperwork saying what happens and they get musical ideas, like an artists sketch pad.

if you gave me a sound effect, I could work with it and perhaps treat it, or probably re-sample it, but why would I need to - I'd just do what I did with that flute - play it's lowest note, discover I needed to go lower and make it happen. If I played you a low note from a bass flute, could you tell it wasn't an alto flute (much more likely to be what a flautist actually has) and sometimes a bassoon can sound like a low flute. In fact, sometimes low woodwinds are almost impossible to tell apart. I have never, in over 40 years of playing instruments ever held, or even seen a bass flute. I've heard them on recordings and seen them on video, but I've never seen a bass saxophone either. Bass clarinets I've seen, but never played - I did own a baritone sax, but it's value was so high, and usage so low, I took the money!

I'm sorry Ryan, but you really don't understand the music side of this business at all. If your composer is decent, and frankly I am wonderings now, this is all very personal to him. I cannot tell him what equipment and sample instruments (not effects) he should have because his needs will be different to mine, but you don't trust him, and as he's not already exploded or walked away, I'm left believing he's musically not up to this either if he has not said exactly what I have said to you in person. I know some very, very talented people in this field - and they simply would not work with you, as you're doing everything very, very strangely.

I've read over and over the topic you and Brian are doing about the script, and it's way out of my comfort area now, but it looks very much like this one - you rejecting everything and trying to justify your strange choices. Some people can not do every role they want to, no matter how hard they try!

Oh sorry I don't mean to make it seem like I am rejecting advice. It's just if I am advised to something I feel I need to know more about it, with details, otherwise I don't know why I am taking that piece of advise, or what I am doing with it exactly. That's all. I don't mean to make it sound like I am rejecting advice.

I know music is not sound effects, but I thought we were talking about more than just sound effects, and actual music I want, aren't we? And yes you are right, I cannot tell the difference between certain instruments. But I know that I want a low flute like sound and that that sound is made by a flute for sure. So wouldn't that be good for a composer to go off of? I don't understand the musical side of it, but I know what I want the music to sound like. But if I don't work with the composer on it, then it likely not sound like how I want, will it?

You do need to trust your composer, otherwise you'll just end of with another example of your copy and paste approach to film making.

Oh okay, for sure. It's just some of the instruments seem to difficult to make sound natural if using samples, and wondered if anything else can be done, audio wise, or anything.

Isn't this your composer's job rather than the directors?

Yeah I just wanted other opinions on what the limitations are and wondering if it was possible with just other samples perhaps? For the flute example, all I did was tell the composer I want a low bass flute type sound, played in a similar way like in the temp track I showed him. Was that really abnormal of me to do that, and is it really going to be that hard for a composer to do? I thought saying that was not asking too much?