I think Ryan would like to hum a tune, and tell the composer "Put that down on paper and have this instrument play it," then play him a clip of some given instrument (which Ryan cannot accurately identify/name). Maybe Ryan doesn't see what we call "composing" as a separate skill set, he's just interested in a transcriptionist/keyboardist to bring his (Ryan's) preconceived ideas to fruition.

I think we see a composer as being like an architect. We say "design me a palatial 3-bedroom house."

Ryan seems to see him as being the draftsman and/or carpenter. Ryan says "move this wall ... no, a bit more to the left ... no, make it like the wall I saw in someone else's house ... but stucco, not brick" and expects him eventually to pound the nails (i.e. play the keyboard).

The client you described sounds like someone else we know.
I actually missed that, but you're right. He was a really nice guy, but his lofty aims were all just problematic.

The only thing we can tell Ryan to do is stop even thinking about music now. Shoot the movie, do the edit - then do the music. It's been months/years so far, so there is clearly no hurry - if it ever gets made at all.

Oh well, it's just I am also storyboarding the script, but when I storyboard I feel that knowing the music beforehand really helps to know how the scene will be shot and cut since I know the tone and style of the scenes more, if I know the music.

I don't need music for every sequence of course, but for the ones that do have music, it really helps the storyboarding and shooting for the edit, if I know what the music is going to be. Even when I direct the acting, if I know the music beforehand, I feel that could help my directing of it.

Plus I am trying to budget everything out. If I know the instrument sounds beforehand, at the pre-production stage, then I know how much it would cost in the budget to by those samples. I was mostly doing this now, because of budget rather than spending an unknown amount of money later.

That method probably works if you're doing animation or a music video, but things change so much on a live action feature film and you don't have the level of control needed to apply it on your budget and shooting schedule. All sorts of issues come and hit you, even when you have the resources.

Watch François Truffaut's "La Nuit américaine" "Day for Night" and you have a flavour of it.

Day for Night (1973) - What is a Director? Scene (2/10) | Movieclips - YouTube

You don't need to know the instruments before hand when doing the budget, just make a working assumption that you may need to purchase X number of samples in the music budget. If you don't need them in end the you can spend the money on something else, which you under budgeted.

When writing on one short film I used to listen to some pieces of music, during the editing we used them as temp tracks where they worked excellently. The composer watched the film once with the temp tracks, I gave him a copy without any music tracks, he came up with some suggestions.

I listened to them, then had a think on the way back home, one was an ear worm, so I phoned him from the car and told him to go with that one, plus another track for the darker stuff, The film's music sound track was build up from those two pieces.

When you engage a lighting person, does he charge you for the software he uses to help the design? Does the sound person charge you for the update to his editing software? Does the makeup person charge you for a new bottle of gas for the spray?

You still have this ridiculous view of samples.


Scene 3a. Interior of a small house is Saskatoon. A young stressed looking man is sitting hunched in front of a laptop. The room is furnished entirely with bookcases, containing ring binders all marked "Rules" and numbered. On his screen is a zoom meeting, with a distinguished looking person clearly sitting in a world class recording studio.

Ryan: Hi Mr Zimmer, thanks for agreeing to compose the music for my new epic, and the fee you have suggested is acceptable to me, we will be shooting as soon as you send me the music so we can shoot appropriately?

Hans Zimmer: Thank you for agreeing the fee, Mr Elder, but vere is the rough cut?

Ryan: I was waiting for the music first?

Han Zimmer: er, OK, but do you have zer story board? That vould help me no end.

Ryan: No, I thought it better to not complete that, as I have to spend a great amount of time learning how to colour correct the storyboard first?

Hans Zimmer: Zis is very strange, can you give me any idea?

Ryan: Yes - remember those tracks I sent of my favourite movies - I want that kind of thing, and make sure you include a bass flute, I really want that.

Hans Zimmer: I can do a bass flute, but it vont fit with the ideas I got from your clips - I thought zey were just flavour?

Ryan: No - I really want that bass flute sound, although I've been told it might not actually be a bass flute - but I do want a harmonica, by the way.

Hans Zimmer: A harmonica? Is zat not rather Morricone?

Ryan: No - I really like it. Do you want me to buy the samples now?

Hans Zimmer: Samples? Vot would I be vanting samples for?

Ryan: You know - I've been told composers use samples

Hans Zimmer: Ve do - but I prefer to choose my own samples from my own collection.

Ryan: But then I may not like them?

Hans Zimmer: Mr Elder, I am a composer, I have spent years building a vorld class collection of equipment to produce my music. I do not need you to buy me anything. You agreed my fee, and I provide the music. If I need a sound, I need it instantly. I do not wait for you to buy it for me.

Ryan: But what if you don't have what I want

Hans Zimmer: Zen you find yourself a new composer, just like you vill have to do now. Goodbye!

The zoom session is terminated by the other party, leaving the young man staring at the blank screen - stunned and surprised by what just happened.

Fades to black
End

Well a conversation I had with the composer before, did not go like that all. He said if I wanted certain sounds that he did not have, then he was fine with me getting them for him, as long they are not too strange or completely avante guarde per se, and as long as they fit.

I can wait till after the movie is made if that is best, but I was advised before to bring on a composer in pre-production, instead of waiting till post. Is there no reason to do that then?

There's no set time for bringing in a composer. although they usually do the real work after the film has picture lock.

How can you buy his sounds? It makes no sense? There are many reasons first is practical, he needs to get them, and then he can install them and you refund what he paid (and of course, he then has that new library - because it won't be one instrument normally - it will be another package. Normally, to get more stuff you need accounts and you just can't buy samples and give them to him.

he's seriously worrying me now. Are you sure he's a composer? He seems to be very unusual in how he works.

I cannot believe ANY composer would say "I've not got that sound, so you get it" because we do NOT talk about sounds and samples - unless we are talking to a client who really doesn't get it.

This is all wrong Ryan - it's a road to a rubbish product.

Well that is what I meant. He picks out the samples, and I pay him for them. That's what I meant when I said I would buy the sounds. He has most of the instruments already, but not some of the sounds that were in the example tracks I gave him. But I would pay for them after he picked them out.

I'm sorry for banging on and on - but when I'm working and I need something I don't have, I am at a road block. In fact, usually the big problem for a composer is not having it, but finding it. Most sounds can be got via searches and selection - so today I wanted a melody instrument, and thought a flute sound would be OK, but there are thousands of them. So I thought maybe a synth flute would fit, that brought the choice down to a few hundred. I then spent a fruitless hour auditioning them and not finding what I wanted. So I started again with a clarinet sound, and again selected a filter to get rid of the real sounding ones, and I still don't have it. Now I'm having to audition again and try to figure out which one of thousands of sounds. Do I keep searching until I find the right one? Yes. I cannot type in flute into Google and find some out of the way sample maker - I'd be dead waiting for that. This is why I find it impossible to believe your composer doesn't have what you want - unless he has not been doing it very long and has not yet got a decent collection. It just seems very unusual.

Oh well so far the composer does not have the bass sax or the electric viols. He says he may be able to make acoustic viols sound electric with effects though. I think the only one he didn't have was the bass sax so far, but one of the example tracks had sounds I want, which I find out were orchestral chimes, and I am not sure if he has that or not. I can ask. But I can have him put that on hold until the movie is done though. He also has a bass flute the samples were not played in types of sounds that I was looking for in the example tracks, but you said before if we can just get our hands on the bass flute, to just blow into it and make them sounds ourselves.

Watch François Truffaut's "La Nuit américaine" "Day for Night" and you have a flavour of it.

Day for Night (1973) - What is a Director? Scene (2/10) | Movieclips - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBsxbjTIJxs)

Wonderful film!!!

I give up Ryan. I'm not sure if you don't understand or are deliberately obtuse. I play the sax, and have flute and clarinet here too. The idea of you blowing into a bass flute is really funny. You actually expect to produce notes, even if you can actually find somebody daft enough to lend it to you? Playing a bass flute is a possibility for a flautist, but probably a bit optimistic for you.

You crack on - you and the composer do seem rather on top of it. I'm sure between the two of you you will certainly produce something, er, quite special and unique. PS, orchestral chimes are probably better known as Tubular Bells - remember Mike Oldfield? In my sample libraries, I have loads of tubular bells, but no orchestral chimes. Best of luck with the music - I give up.

Oh well it was said before on here, to just blow into the flute myself, unless that was incorrect and should not do it. The composer can just use samples then if that's best. I will ask him. But let's say I save all the music for post and the picture is locked. Should I then put the example tracks in the movie, if getting opinions from an audience on the example tracks does not work, because the audience does not know enough about it, like it was said before, then what do you do then? How does a filmmaker get opinions on what music works for a scene and what not befor asking the composer to do that type of music and feel?

Wonderful film!!!
Just watching that scene makes me want to see that movie. I'm putting it on my watch list.
I give up Ryan. I'm not sure if you don't understand or are deliberately obtuse. I play the sax, and have flute and clarinet here too. The idea of you blowing into a bass flute is really funny. You actually expect to produce notes, even if you can actually find somebody daft enough to lend it to you? Playing a bass flute is a possibility for a flautist, but probably a bit optimistic for you.

You crack on - you and the composer do seem rather on top of it. I'm sure between the two of you you will certainly produce something, er, quite special...
Sounds like you've had too much fun for one day. lol Ryan is like beer after 2-3 posts that's my limit. Anymore and I'm getting a hangover headache.

Unrelated, I got a relatively simple audio recording project and I've been trying to educate myself on using multi-track audio programs. I'm currently making my way through Reaper. I can't believe I've been using Audacity all this time. I only do basic edits but still I had no idea how much better these other programs were. I also purchased a MixPre 6 but now I wish I got the 10 instead. As soon as you start recording musicians you need lots of tracks. It should be fine because I don't anticipate becoming an audio engineer.

My forehead is sore from the wall banging.

Once you get a proper DAW, some of the things they can do really make life much better. Years ago it was always X vs Y vs Z and everyone disagreed, but now, they're all remarkably good, just different, so Reaper Logic, Cubase and the others really are all good - just different. Cubase for years has had decent MIDI editing, and now that familiar screen we all used in the 90s doesn't really look much different, and the basic operation is the same, but now it can show you real audio and let you fix faults. I've got the latest version of Cubase and it has a plug in - well, a link to a separate piece of software called spectral layers, and I was so impressed I bought the full version. You can remove reverb - something totally impossible only a few years back, but you can also take a commercial recording and it splits out stems - so vocals, bass, drums, keys, guitars etc - each one as a separate track. It can fix all kinds of noise - and I've not scratched the surface. As I use Adobe, I still do little audio edits from Premiere by using Audition, but Cubase and Sound Forge are my usual tools. Spectral tools doesn't have a preset for fixing bass flutes though.

You can remove reverb now in audio? Wow! Is their much quality loss if you do?

Yes and sometimes yes. Izotrope can do it, and there are several other programs.

You need to listen and hear if it works in a particular situation, However, these things are usually best avoided, unless there's no escape.

How to Remove Echo in Premiere Pro - YouTube

Oh okay thanks, if this is only a few years old now, no one in the filmmaking community has been talking about it that I caught wind of. It's mostly the locations that have some reverb, but I can live with it, as long as audiences are not bothered by it.

Split out separate stems from a mixed track? That's hard for me to envision ... it sounds like the nonsense on the CSI genre of TV shows. (Of course ten years ago I'd have said you can't remove wow and flutter automatically. And fifty years ago CEDAR hadn't been conceived.) Paul, is Spectral Layers a standalone program, or does it work only under Cubase? I don't need all the editing facilities but I certainly would like to clean up some audio, especially older recordings.

To my shame I’d never heard of it, and it appeared in Cubase 11 pro. I tried it and it removed the vocal from a track I’d tried to do myself and failed and it worked. It also retained the stereo field which others usually destroy. It also left me the removed vocal as a stem. I did a bit of Googling and discovered it’s a separate product Strienberg sell. So I bought the full version. It’s does so much I’ve only scratched the surface.
If you have a mix where say, the vocal has too much reverb, you can extract the vocal, dereverb it, then put it back. You can also adjust the stem balance. If you listen to the stems there are artefacts. But as they are just unwanted bits of other tracks, when you remix, they stop being artefacts and sit back where they should.

EDIT
I've a track I'll share for scrutiny - it was recorded before covid struck. The backing harmonies and the music were sorted, but vocal wise, all we had was the guide vocal Ellie sang in one take, and she didn't even know the song very well - so it was a kind of rough run-through so the BVs could be sorted. In some places she even sang the wrong notes - AND - she sang with the studio monitors like a PA - never intended to be used. With covid the project died. I thought I'd try Spectral Layers to clean her track up, and then see if it was clean enough to fix the wrong notes. It's quite exposed at the start, so now you know how it was recorded, you might be able to hear the artefacts. I think they're pretty low. I'd welcome comments.
https://youtu.be/cf7htTtwlmw

They can extract a vocal from a mix? Insane.

Not just vocals, but vocals, drums, bass, keys and 'others'.

Here's the unmix feature
https://youtu.be/aPsxWSGEM0c

Im afraid I cant watch that cause my brain just exploded

Wow that’s amazing

That's what I thought - with cubase, I got the elements one, or most of it for free and I decided the range of stuff it can do was really impressive. The noise fingerprint looks useful, even though I haven't used it yet - but the thing I have used is where you take a mix from years back - extract the stems and then you can re-balance it. My recordings from the 90s, as I'm a bass player historically, were always a bit bass heavy - and you can split the recording, then lower the bass, but leaving the piano left hand - really neat! Oddly - Steinberg's videos are pointed at modern EDM dance music creators, leaving the old fogeys like me to work out which bits would work for us. It's clever enough to hear the difference between piano and electric piano. Just a few years ago we told people reverb was permanent, and likened it to removing one ingredient from a finished cake - it couldn't be done, and now we can.

Ryan - watch this video to the end, and tell me that this would not be exactly what your composer should have in his machine. 25Gb later - it's mine.
https://youtu.be/LwYKhZ4vFF8

I watched it. Thanks for that. So yes, my composer does seem to have that type of machine from what I can tell. Why?

Good - because note how that guy way writing music using that one new package, and kept talking about how important it was to watch the visuals. Note how the exact instrument was not important at all, but what was, was how it was played. That bit of software takes samples of real instruments blends them together into the kind of stuff you need, and that single package is less than two hundred dollars, once you've got the player on your computer. Going through the combination patches - some have low flutes in the blend - but the point here is the combination of the sounds. Can you perhaps see better why picking a single sound as a foundation may be the wrong approach, for professional, quality audio for your movie?

Oh yes, I know what you mean. What I did was, I would show the composer sounds I wanted, and he would tell me what instruments those were so we could keep track of how to get those sounds. For example one sound I showed him he said was a base trombone, and a tenor trombone being played simultaneously. Or another sound I wanted he said was a cello and a viola being played simultaneously. So he just made a note of what instruments in order to get that combination sound. But I know what you mean, about the sounds being played a certain way. I would show the composer the sounds I wanted and then he would make notes of what instruments they were, for reference.

But it seems that he cannot get the sounds from some movies, even if he has the same instruments. For example, one of the example tracks I told him I thought would be good, the instrument on it was a celeste he said, but the celeste samples he tried out, just didn't sound the same as in the movie, and gave off a very different feel, even though it was the same instrument.

one of the example tracks I told him I thought would be good, the instrument on it was a celeste he said, but the celeste samples he tried out, just didn't sound the same as in the movie, and gave off a very different feel, even though it was the same instrument.

But it wasn't the same instrument! It was an entirely different instrument, just with the same name. More than one company makes a celeste, and they are recorded in many different studios using many different mics. (even ignoring the ones that are electronic, not a real physical instrument) Surely you don't expect every combination to sound the same. That's why Strads and Guarneris are famous (and famously expensive): they sound better than other violins. A recording made on a smartphone, in the St. Louis Aquarium, compared to one made in Severance Hall using Telefunken mics and a Nagra digital recorder, will not "sound the same": they were made with different recording instruments. And yet you think it's noteworthy that the two celestes "don't sound the same"? The longer this thread goes on, the more it becomes clear that you just don't "get" music. I mean ... you don't seem to have the least little bit of "common sense" about this facet of what you're doing. Yet you keep trying to apply "Ryan-think" to your hypothetical musical score.

Ryan, many people here are trying to help you, and are giving you a lot of advice. After each suggestion is posted, you reply in essence, "Yes, but here's what I did and what happened." The people here are already aware that the process is frustrating and the results are unsatisfactory to you; they are trying to give you other options. Yet you seem to keep doing things your own way. It seems you don't much want to take advice; then why are you asking for it? And why do you keep defending the way you've done things up 'til now? Do you think you will eventually convince people here that they are wrong and you are right?

Sorry I don't mean to not take advice. I appreciate the advice. It's just when people tell me to let the composer have free reign and work behind my back, and then expect good results, this didn't happen in the past. On my past projects, I was told the music was not good. On here I was told this as well.

So I feel if I do the same thing again, I will have the same results. It's just risky. So when the advice is telling me to be risky, I am weary of it going wrong again, since it did in the past, that's all. I am just trying to figure out the reason, why take the same risk again, and to expect a different result. That's just the part I do not understand in the advice.

So I thought if I made sure the music was more like more professional tracks in more professional movies, than that is probably better than leaving it up to chance and the unknown. I just don't understand what the benefit of taking the same risks are, and no one has commented on what to do if the same results yield, if I do the same thing again.

But it just seems the advice is too take the same risk again and that will be better. That's the part I just don't understand. So it's not that I don't mean to take the advice, I just want to understand why I am doing it, especially when it has not worked for me before.

when people tell me to let the composer have free reign and work behind my back

If someone said those words, I missed it. Of course on a thread with 383 posts (and counting) and the same things said over and over again, how can we expect any clarity. Perhaps other specific words that you misinterpreted? Footnotes, please.

Well I was told to just describe what I want in words to the composer, the feeling I want, and to leave them to it. Doesn't that mean free reign on what to do, after I tell them what I want? However, if I have misinterpreted the advice in anyway, then I apologize. I am greatful for the advice. I have followed some of it so far for sure.

Can we hear what music you have had before, that people have told you was the good. There is always the possibility you have taken advice wrongly, and misunderstood, like you do here all the time. Your current insistence that composing must be a ‘we’ process, a collaboration, rather than your composers own work, is going to spoil it. Consider your credits. Music by Fred smith or music by Fred smith and ryan Wray?

However the more we go on and on, I wonder about your composer, because he is starting to sound like a pianist who composes the old fashioned way, and is not at all comfy with technology. Both of you talk about instruments as if they are the main feature. This Celeste rubbish for example. Orchestral Celestes are one of the instruments that, like harps, do NOT sound like people think they do. They’re a family of instrument, and as reformists discover, each is unique, but for movie music, they end up treated, and enhanced to make them the bell like pure tone that everyone ‘thinks’ celestes sound like. This is what Greg is talking about. In a cathedral, they sound wonderful because of the building. The Celeste usually sounds pretty horrid in somebodies house, or in the studio. If you have a synth Celeste sound, that is not remotely what they sound like. Your composer seems very green on substitution.

Oh when you say the music before that people told me was good, do you mean the tracks I chose for this one, or music from past projects that is good?

I mean the people who told you the music was bad - before you do anything, perhaps we should investigate of they were correct? If they didn't like the music they could be correct and there is a problem, or they could simply have been wrong?

Sure. Here is one where I was told so, or it was not bad, but just generic perhaps.

In the Mood For Wrath - YouTube

Well - my view is that it's often far, far too loud, which makes it stand out, but some is missing. The scene of the bad guys with the bats going up the stairs - where is the tension building music, but then at the end scene we get quite epic, but detached music. It's not in my view appropriate - it's the sort of thing you'd use to be patriotic or proud or triumphant, it's too nice for the action. There's also silence at the end.

None is bad music, but levels are extreme, and while most fits the mood, that end scene is spoiled by the music, not enhanced. Not what the average listener/viewer would expect. Sometimes you can do it with mismatched music for effect - Pearl Harbour, and other war movies often have very contrasting music - to make the images detached. The suspense building music on the stairs is a cliche of movie music, and works well - so odd you didn't use it. I'm surprised your comments said the music was bad. Maybe you just didn't polish it properly but much is fine, bar the weird style at the end.

Your audio needs work - all the cuts in the edit in the office have very obviously edited sound - the background noise changes quite clearly on the cuts. some are severe and even with the music blasting away can still be heard.

Oh okay thanks. I had an audio mixer do the audio editing and mixing. Perhaps I could get someone else next time for it then.

As for the music, I too felt it was too positive sounding at the end and felt it didn't fit. However, the choice to have no music as they went up the stairs was my choice though, because I wanted to emphasize how quiet they were trying to be, to not be heard. Is that bad, to not have music during a scene where characters are trying to not make sound?

But I also felt that the music was too positive, before I got other people's comments on it. So that is why I thought perhaps I should have more of an active roll in the music process with the composer for future projects, rather than just leave them to it, and take whatever they give me, whatever that may be. Wouldn't that be a logical way to go, based on past experience?

You keep asking if things are bad, they're only bad if they don't work. A number of films have very little music, only sound effects.

Deliverance: Biggest River - YouTube

Oh okay, but I thought that the music in that short film example of mine, that the music didn't work though. But as far as choosing to have no music in some scenes, well Paul thought it was a strange to have no music in the one section, so would others think so then?

Well I was told to just describe what I want in words to the composer, the feeling I want, and to leave them to it. Doesn't that mean free reign on what to do, after I tell them what I want? However, if I have misinterpreted the advice in anyway, then I apologize. I am greatful for the advice. I have followed some of it so far for sure.

If you describe what you want to the composer, I wouldn't say that's giving him free reign. That's allowing him to use his expertise and creativity within the guidelines you have set.


From www.collinsdictionary.com
Behind one's back definition: without one's knowledge ; secretly or deceitfully

From www.thefreedictionary.com
"Behind someone's back": without someone's knowledge; secret from someone. The phrase typically suggests wrongdoing or deceit.


Ryan, I challenge you specifically to find a quote where someone said the composer should work "behind your back." Do you really think someone told you to have the composer work without your knowledge, secretly or deceitfully, with some element of wrongdoing? If that's how you interpret the advice then you are really paranoid. Otherwise (more likely IMHO) you are misquoting and twisting people's words in order to reject our advice and support your own way of doing things.

Sorry I don't mean to twist people's words. Behind the back was my term, but what I meant was, I would have them do what they do without checking up on it at all, if that is what the advice was.

I could describe what I want to the composer, it's just that when I did before, I would end up getting something back that was very different from what I was thinking. So I feel I have to be much more specific in my descriptions therefore, so I do not get something back that is too different and at the risk that it will not work as well.

Right, so you are saying what you want is creative people, but they can only be creative with your input?

That happens to many directors because they're dealing with something that they can't completely control. It may be the reason why only a small number of composers get to do major feature films.

Well I just want to be a part of the creativity more so and offer some of what I would like. That way, I know what's going on, rather than be surprised later if I do not make myself a part of the process. What I could do is show the composer example tracks of I want and then they can give me samples of what they come up with and I pick the best sample, for him to make the rest out of... But that's just an idea. I just don't want the music to be out of place or not work like before and not sure how else to do it, without having more specific requests.

So you want them to create the music, then when you don't like it, start again with another then another? So you want them to do three times the work for one fee? get real Ryan. You talk about doing it like the pros - then come up with this. What you are missing is trust. You find a composer with ideas, then you let them run. If you really want appropriate music you need to give them the finished edit, or at least a time locked one, then they can do their best work. If you withhold this, or get them to do the work only, then constant revisions make it tiresome to do - and your input will drive them mad. Creative people respond very badly to less creative people interfering. Why engage somebody then remove their autonomy? Frankly - in the movie, events, theatre and entertainment business - every single department tends to work on it's own - with guidance but whenever a Director oversteps the mark and over-directs, the product suffers. Let the people do their job. You're worrying about specific instruments, when clearly your input would have been better placed sorting the sound so it's less distracting, and if you couldn't notice the dialogue vanishing behind the music, then maybe your judgement in audio matters needs to adjustment. If you get your bass flute, who decides how loud the music is?

Well this is why I wanted to give the composer very specific ideas and specific example tracks and sounds from the tracks. That way, the music I feel could turn out better in a much shorter amount of time. But it was said before that that's micromanaging. So I am not sure where to draw the line between being specific in example tracks and sounds, vs. trusting them to come up with something that fits, without knowing what they will actually come up with.

As for who decides how loud the music is, that would be up to the audio mixer, not the composer, wouldn't it be?