it would be insane not to. otherwise you might throw out everything youve done up until that point cause you find out it doesnt work, and that would probably piss him off

Well It was said before that I shouldn't pick the instruments and just let the composer pick them. However, int the past, the composer would pick ones I didn't like as much. They were okay but they just didn't pop. For example, there was one score a composer did for me where the harp was the lead instrument and the harp was not in any of the example tracks I gave the composer.

There is also another project, where the composer decided to have the french horn as the lead instrument and I just wasn't feeling the french horn as much. So shouldn't I have some say in the instrumental sounds therefore, depending if I feel they fit the tone, or no?

No one's saying you shouldn't have input on the finished music. But a) really don't worry about it til you have an edited movie to score and b) tell the composer some general mood details, give him/her an example of your inspiration, let them do their thing (i.e. first draft), THEN criticize/refine/tweak.

Micromanaging again, Ryan? The example track is mood, feel, air, emotion, purpose, support and if your composer picked a hair because he felt it fitted thematically what he was seeing - then please forgive me - it is probable that you expected the same instrumentation but different notes maybe? That is not composition. You really want him to produce new, excellent music, but be tied down to instrumentation. It's rather like being ZZ Top, and being given a Metallica track as inspiration or guidance for something new, then complaining when it sounds like ZZ Top.

May the snag with the music is that you don't understand it because you are not musical. As the producer it's perfectly OK to not like it, but expecting to not get a harp, because it wasn't in the demo is a bit silly. The important thing was does the harp work? It's a bit silly that if you are musically compromised you still want to make decisions like these on your own?

Well I didn't feel the harp worked with what I was going for. The composer can come up with new instruments that are not in the example tracks that can work. But I didn't feel the harp worked in this case for what the mood and tone I was wanting. I don't want every instrument in the example tracks and the example tracks are not perfect, just the closest I could find.

What I could do is listen to what a composer has for me, and that if he came up with instruments that I feel worked, then great, but if I feel they don't fit, should I recommend a different instrument then for the tone, or what should I do if I feel certain instrumental sounds, don't fit the tone here and there?

Ryan - I've read a bit of this thread, and you have legitimate questions that have been somewhat answered. My suggestion is to now concentrate on the big picture. Let me explain - when you were surprised to hear a harp when there was none in the temp score - does it work? Or does it create a different mood or impact than what you looking for? When you suggest specific instrumentation, do you think the composer(s) share your emotional understanding of what instrument "X" might provide? And doesn't the same (combinations of) musical instruments) deliver different outcomes? Brass can be militaristic (march), or mournful (taps) - or deliver any number of other emotional messages, depending on the musical notes themselves, and context.

Instead of getting bogged down with details such as instrumentation - and it is relatively secondary, as an effective score can work musically prior to definite instrumentation (as in played on a piano while intended for a chamber orchestra etc.) - concentrate on the emotional content you'd like the music to provide, scene and genre dependent. A simple example - a main character is troubled, but you want to indicate that there is still hope. Music can connote that hopefulness. Where you energy for music will be best served is to be able to clearly communicate, in depth, what the emotional and action-supportive needs for music are. As the filmmaker, you need to identify and make literal what you are trying to achieve. That is what you need to share with your collaborators - the emotional foundation you seek, and how you want the action to be supported. Whether that's via a harp or an accordeon only matters once there's a score whose essence communicates what you are looking for. That is how I like clients to approach me for music; I'm a trained composer (western classical) and organist who has mostly made a living as a filmmaker, with intense period of composing applied music for film.

You are the commissioner, so feel free to tell the composer you don't like it and have a conversation. Your recommendations might be (in musical circles) laughable - you are paying a musician to musische. If you had a dance routine in the movie, would you tell the choreographer how do do his/her job, or tell the set constructor what kind of joints he should be using? Your job is to say yes or no to what is offered, and try to explain why, so you can communicate. If you tell the artist who has no yellow in his pallet, he must use yellow, the result is never good.

You interfere too much Ryan. Leave the experts to do their thing without you tying their hands behind their backs. You need to stop the over management - we've told you so often, your idea of input is instructions, rules and edicts. Composers quite like being told it needs to be warmer, darker, colder, sexier, angrier, happier...... NOT instructions on musical ideas. What makes you think your competence in the musical area is good enough to produce accurate assessment other than your own likes and dislikes?

Oh, well the harp I didn't feel go for the tone. I know it's less about instrumentization and more about tone and feeling. I just thought that if I asked the composer to use certain instruments, the sounds of those instruments would convey the tone and and feeling I wanted more accurately, rather than end up with sounds I didn't like, which is what happened in the past on other projects.

So I thought if I could be more accurate in the sounds, then I could get the tone I wanted more accurately, in terms of sound. What I could do is show the composer what sound I have in mind, and then ask if that's the best choice or if he has anything better, if that's the way to go?

Ryan - you don't need to communicate "the sound" you have in mind - just the emotion you want it to describe, as paired with the footage. And if you have some temp music that comes close to what you want, all the better. Sharing great ideas is always fine, but otherwise it's best to concentrate on your own rice bowl.

Oh okay, but if the composer comes up with sounds that I feel do not reflect the emotion or feeling I am going for, should I then suggest to them to maybe pick a different sound, or ask them to pick a different instrument then?

Neither - just better describe the emotion you're after, and make certain the composer understands. She/he will translate this to music.

Oh okay, it's just when I did that before, I would get sounds that I feel didn't work at all for what I was going for like the harp for example with a composer on a past project. So I thought I needed to be more specific therefore, rather than just say what feel I was after.

It's OK to comment on instrumentation, but really your job is to focus on relating, in words, the emotional state you seek, and how the music supports the action. If you can't express what you want in words - not in musical instruments or examples - as a non-musician you will never get the results you want. If your composer doesn't get it, either you're not communicating effectively enough or you are both on non-copacetic wavelengths.

Oh okay, well sometimes it's hard for me to communicate in words. For example if I say I am going for suspense, so there are so many different kinds of tones of suspense, music wise. So I will pick an example track, that I feel conveys that exact feeling of suspense. But if the composer starts putting in different types of sounds that are not in the example track, then I feel a different type of suspens is being conveyed if that makes sense?

It may be better than what I had in mind, but if I feel it's not, then should I ask him to use the sounds that are in that example to get what I was going for more?

No. "Sounds" alone do not convey emotion or drive action - it's the underlying music, and context, that holds the key. The instrumentation is just the actualization, the delivery person, of what should be there in the music score. If your suggestion for a different instrument does not resonate w/ the composer, it's because the music itself isn't working. This is super basic stuff - for example, a piano reduction of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring is much more similar than different from the full orchestration.

The thing Ryan, is that in the real world, you perhaps give some examples, then you let the composer work to the images. Until you have shot them, edited them and presented them to the composer - they can't compose. You seem to think the visuals are not important and they can produce the music first - it doesn't work like that. We've explained this over and over.

Oh okay, but if the composer gives me a demonstration of what he has cooked up, and I feel that the sound is not working, should I just ask him to go with the sound that was in the example track instead, or should I ask him to keep trying with different sounds instead then? I feel that certain sounds could create a different emotion or feel, compared to other sounds, but that is how my brain interprets the feelings.

Ryan sounds like you're obsessing over your subjective ideas that aren't rooted in an expertise. A competent composer can use most any instrument to pull it off. A movie is for other people who aren't going to share your personal preferences in music, so as long as the music supports the mood of the scene that's all that matters. So you might like bass flute or associate that instrument with a certain mood but any other person probably won't share your opinions, that's why it's waste of time to micro manage such details. Maybe you should ask other people to listen to the track and describe the mood.

How do you know without the images? You have the cart before the horse. You are deciding the music based on if you like it, like hearing a song on the radio. There is no context. Remember that cowboy film with the kind of whistling shrieking sound the great and grew. It fits the movie, but if you heard it without the images, we'd all hate it. Some of the music in Blade Runner without the pictures is atonal and horrid, but with the edit, it works perfectly.

The question of course is if your brain functions the same as the audience's. You are producing the music for their mood and emotional needs, not yours.

In one of the other topics somebody mentioned 2001. The scene in that movie where Dave in the pod is travelling has the weirdest images and a totally weird soundtrack. If that soundtrack had been played without the images, everyone would have hated it.

Ryan sounds like you're obsessing over your subjective ideas that aren't rooted in an expertise. A competent composer can use most any instrument to pull it off. A movie is for other people who aren't going to share your personal preferences in music, so as long as the music supports the mood of the scene that's all that matters. So you might like bass flute or associate that instrument with a certain mood but any other person probably won't share your opinions, that's why it's waste of time to micro manage such details. Maybe you should ask other people to listen to the track and describe the mood.

But if anyone instrument can pull off an emotion though, that how come in some movies it sounds much better than others when they use different instruments then?

How do you know without the images? You have the cart before the horse. You are deciding the music based on if you like it, like hearing a song on the radio. There is no context. Remember that cowboy film with the kind of whistling shrieking sound the great and grew. It fits the movie, but if you heard it without the images, we'd all hate it. Some of the music in Blade Runner without the pictures is atonal and horrid, but with the edit, it works perfectly.

The question of course is if your brain functions the same as the audience's. You are producing the music for their mood and emotional needs, not yours.

In one of the other topics somebody mentioned 2001. The scene in that movie where Dave in the pod is travelling has the weirdest images and a totally weird soundtrack. If that soundtrack had been played without the images, everyone would have hated it.

Oh yes I will get back on the project when it's finished shooting, but still have a preliminary plan going in. But I was also advised before to bring the composer early on in pre-production. Should I not then and only hire one in post?

But when you say I am doing it for the emotional needs of me and not the audience, wouldn't what I want, reflect what the audience wants since if I like it in a movie, than others should as well? Shouldn't I use my own judgment as to what I like as a basis?

Uh, NO. If you still somehow haven't figured it out, you think VERY differently from most people and don't have a good sense of objective judgment about the way the things you put out there come across to others, which is why you're often baffled by the criticism you get. Most of us can use outside opinions on our art because we are too close to it to judge it objectively; you REALLY need this.

I think a good example was given before concerning brass.

Ryan, imagine for a minute that we are back in silent film days, with a live pianist in the movie theatre providing accompaniment to each film that is shown. In one scene, a guy is in a barroom talking and laughing with friends; the piano plays something upbeat and maybe major key. Next scene there is a barroom brawl; the piano plays something more energetic, maybe some strident chords (or dischords) as the punches land. Next scene, our hero wins the fight; piano plays a fanfare. Then the protagonist jumps on his horse and rides away; the piano plays some "galloping" kind of music. Later the protagonist is in military uniform, marching to battle with other soldiers; the piano plays a march. And so on. At the end of the film, the protagonist is in a casket, we see the lid closed and the casket lowered into the ground; the piano plays taps. ... The next movie is a Buster Keaton comedy with entirely different mood to the music ... same piano.

For many people, for many years, the music did convey the proper mood to match each scene on the screen. And it was all played on the same piano. Imagine that's what you have to work with, and quit obsessing about telling the composer how to compose. How much time have we wasted debating whether a bass flute sounds to you like a clarinet (or whatever)?

The Pope did not tell Michelangelo what color paint to use, and certainly not whether to use Sherwin-Williams or Pratt & Lambert.

When I went to the hospital to have my gall bladder removed, I didn't tell the surgeon where to make the incision or which tool to use. I didin't tell her which kind of knot to use on the stitches. I didn't even tell the pre-op orderly how to shave my belly. I am not a surgeon or a surgical orderly. And you are not a musician.

Since you seem to believe in micro-management, here is my micro-management directive to you: Do not begin your reply with "Oh, okay." Not just today, but for the next seven days. How does that sit with you? Do you like being micro-managed? How does micro-management affect your composer and other collaborators?

wouldn't what I want, reflect what the audience wants since if I like it in a movie, than others should as well?

"SHOULD"? That is a big leap of faith on your part. That will be determined by the movie's success or failure.

Perhaps what the composer wants reflects what the audience wants. After all, he's hopefully a somewhat successful musician, and admitted you are not.

Greg, good analogy with the silent movie. But I have a feeling we're all talking in circles.

Oh we definitely are. But I thought we were all ok with that and agreed that posting in these threads was a fun waste of time while we await the sweet embrace of death?

I thought we were all ok with that and agreed that posting in these threads was a fun waste of time

"FUN"? That is a big leap of faith on your part. ;-)

Ryan asks continually for advice, and when he gets it, he totally ignores it, or tries to convince us that he's right and we're wrong. Happens all the time, but I hope one day, the light bulb will go on and he'll realise.

I really would be pleased if he just tried some of our thoughts once in a while. or maybe we could just tell him he is right and he'd be happy.

Frankly, though - some things just make my jaw drop - such basic concepts that he doesn't get. Like this.
But if anyone instrument can pull off an emotion though, that how come in some movies it sounds much better than others when they use different instruments then?

Surely if we listen to any piece of music, we can, without any training, say it sounds happy, or sad, or angry. Kids at school do not get taught this - but some instruments get tagged with emotions. Saxophones are sexy, strings are sad, brass can be military, and so on - but then for every sexy sax, there will be one absolutely NOT sexy, and the romantic sad strings suddenly make going into the shower very scary.

So many times it is NOT the instrument but the notes it plats and how it's played. If you limit the pallette the composer can use, you really do tie a hand behind their back.

"FUN"? That is a big leap of faith on your part. ;-)

I mean, I agree, but at this point it can't possibly be 'cause anyone thinks anything we post here will actually help. Maybe it's the modern day equivalent of flagellating ourselves with a cat o' nine tails in punishment for our own sins?

Ryan seems to be confusing what he personally likes with what everyone else might like. All this is subjective and, as usual, he seems to be copy and pasting rather than trying to sense what the film itself may require so that it stands out.

It may be the case that a piece of music he personally hates may be what is best for the film.

I mean, I agree, but at this point it can't possibly be 'cause anyone thinks anything we post here will actually help. Maybe it's the modern day equivalent of flagellating ourselves with a cat o' nine tails in punishment for our own sins?

I'm just doing penance for the pain I caused the adults around me when I was about ten years old and was always right because I knew everything about everything. Now I know slightly less.

When you’ve taught music in college you realise that what people individually like can be wildly different. We also change our own likes. I keep remembering the first music I ever bough on a double LP. Goodbye yellow brick road. Still love it. Yet all the others I bought in the seventies I now hate. Spotify has them all, but some I cannot stand now!

From the things you mention in your post I imagine you headbanging in your studio to Metallica and Motorhead.

And what were the rest of them, Paul? Just imagining you in a disco outfit. ;-)

Okay so if my judgment of music is not the best then, and I should find out if the what I have in mind will work for the audience then, should I wait until the final cut of the movie, put the example tracks in then temporarily, and show it to an audience and ask them if they feel the types of tracks I have in mind would work then, before showing a composer those example tracks; or how else do you find out what the audience would think would work then?

Plus I didn't think I was ignoring all the advice, and I took a lot of the advice on here before. For example it was said to not use the harmonica, cause it wouldn't fit, so I didn't ask the composer to use it now, as a result of the advice. It's just some of the advice is risky, like if a composer gives me a track in the past, I didn't think worked with what I was going for, and the advice is to just let go with it anyway, it seems risky.

Actually it was Status Quo and AC/DC. And now 40years later I’m in a Beach Boys band - you can have a laugh at my expense. Here’s us at the Abu Dhabi formula 1, pre-covid! Like the shirt?

It was also said on here that some of my choices of example tracks were good, so I didn't think they were too bad so far.

Eric Clapton - yes, I get this one, style wise. I can imagine this working for certain love scenes, or just thoughtful scenes. Best bit is it has no real melody - so nobody will be humming it.
TMNT - yep again, I can get this one - the precision (I've got loads of amazing bangs in some of my library)
The Morricone one with harmonica and delayed/reverby twangy guitar - a bit cliche, but a style I guess. Always makes me think cowboys and Arizona deserts with rocks.
The replacement killers is a collection of effects, sub bass for angst and a bit cliche ridden, but works as a style to work with.
Batman - no. 1950s/60s cartoon classics and just needs Mel Blanc's voice. It's a period style that doesn't;t relate to contemporary use of music in movies.
No idea about the Amusement piece. Totally out for me as it sounds locked in the 50s and jocular so OK for an Ealing Comedy, or cartoon, but it conjures up everything your movie doesn't for me.
Sin City - works for me except whatever that low reed is - which I personally hate and it gets in the way.
Spartan - works for me as it's moody and rhythmic but isn't memorable - which I think makes it better.
Blowout has great incidental music and again, does the job.
Incomprehensible captivity - not, in my view one of his better pieces, but it sets the scene and makes people uncomfortable, so probably out of context, is a good choice.
United 93 - another non-descript rhythmic piece - again, does what it is supposed to without going anywhere.

Red Heat just shows Horner can write noise too. Probably needs the scene for me to contextualise. The hotel is tricky for me, but the chase feel to bus station is typical, but of course cliche based.

I have seen one of those movies - just one!

You still miss the point Ryan - it is NOT the instruments, it's the context of those instruments in those pieces - they just work. The harmonica in westerns - it became a cliche sound. It was never the best, but for one movie it fitted, so another movie tried it and then at some point it stopped being in used. That doesn't make the harmonica a wrong choice - it was rejected and that's fine - it's evolution. You want to have a list that has instruments matched to genres and moods, and that doesn't work.

What I'm saying is that composers choose the sounds to match the piece - they often nowadays don't even know what it is. I'll try to explain. I had this one to do - the visuals were fish - tropical fish and carp type things. I used a piece of public domain classical music and used synths and samplers rather than conventional instruments, and I actually started with a Harmonica - I suspect it could have been our chats on the forum that made me think harmonic was good, but it wasn't and evolved into a treated celeste - which with all the layers of stuff all adding flavour I think worked pretty well. For context, imagine a dark exhibition booth with the rear wall made up not of TV monitors but fish tanks against black backgrounds - with this playing. So the arrangement uses most of the notes Camille Saint-Saens wrote a long time ago - but with different instruments to his version. I also did a version of Clare de Lune which also has that wobbly kind of background and the two were cycled through and probably drove the stand people mad for three days.

You have in your head a sound and it's glued to a movie. You need to understand that guide and demo tracks are just that - examples of the kind of thing - NOT something for a musician to rigidly follow. Most musicians I know would fall into two camps. Do whatever the client asks for and if it's rubbish, it's their fault, or those who would suggest or try to explain. clients who rigidly hang onto flawed choices rarely go far.

Here is a link. The Aquarium - YouTube

There's a screenshot if it helps.

As an aside. I used "The Aquarium" as a temp track in one of my films. The composer went for the feel and mood of it, using different instruments, with the music that he composed for the soundtrack.

That's the point Ryan doesn't get I think, Brian - they're a stimulus, and not a rigid formula to follow. I've got a kind of unofficial 2 tier pricing for this kind of music. Public domain classical style can save client budget, or they can have totally new. One got me - he liked a piece of Satie - put wanted a unique one so I wrote a No. 4. I was rather pleased when I saw somebody discussing it and telling a friend there was actually a much less well known no.4 - which turned out to be mine!

Oh okay, when it comes to context, I felt that the example tracks I picked were in context with the story and script though or at least I thought so.

You know what you like - nobody is doubting that, the question is what about the audience?

Oh well what if I put the example tracks in a cut of the movie, just temporarily and showed it to a test audience and get thier opinions on the tracks, if that's best?

Ryan the larger issue that comes up in every topic is you struggle with decision making and judgement. Seems like stubbornly clinging to rules or copying other movies is a coping mechanism you've developed.

Everyone, including a child has opinions and knows what they like, but this doesn't mean that they are qualified to make good decisions.

We can't answer your questions and you can't understand our answers because you lack an underlying fundamental ability needed to direct and produce a movie.

Why do you think there are no indie film makers here asking the type of questions you ask?

Ryan, if you show it to a test audience, you would not believe them if they said anything other than your own opinion. You do this all the time.

Well I can try to keep an open mind then and follow the advice. If my judgment is not as good then, should I do the test audience method?

I can try to follow the advice on here. The advice is, when working with a composer, let the composer choose the sounds. But if the sounds do not work I find after? What's the next step? Is the next step to show it to an audience and ask them if they think it works? If not, do I go back the composer and ask him if some adjustments can be made based on the audience's opinions?

If your music is working properly the audience may not have an opinion on the music, they may only be aware of it if it's distracting.

An example of a film completely changing the music after a viewing is "Chinatown" , but it wasn't the result of the audience as such, just one highly experienced musician in the industry, who told Polanski that the original music was killing the film.

Robert Even then hired Jerry Goldsmith to compose a new score.

Oh okay, that's interesting. What if I asked the composer for his opinion on my example tracks, would that be enough to know if the example tracks work with the movie or not, or should I get more people's opinions other than the composers?

You can use test screenings, in which the film as whole is tested to see if they understand and emote with it. Just doing it for the music alone is a waste of time., it has to be part of the whole.

However, you'll probably get differing opinions, so the director has to decide.,

Do you trust your composer's opinion on the music, or don't you? Can he write music that works? It sounds like you have somebody who is either immune to your constant interference, guidance, advice, criticism or doesn't care.

You speak of your composer as if you don't trust him all the time. You think you know best, so why even have him work on it if you don't trust his judgement? I think most decent composers would find working like this impossible.

I n' remember if I mentioned it, but I had a new client just before Christmas and I fired him. He rejected advice, he didn't listen and kept moving the goalposts - so despite it being a ten week project, I knew I'd never get to the end and the end result would be compromised by his inability to set proper goals that we could achieve. I wished him luck, but told him I dirdn't think I'd be able to do his project. He tried to back track saying that he'd do this and that, but I stuck to my guns and turned work away, in this covid work starved year. If he asked my advice, requested costings and then rejected everything with really unsound reasons, I can't work like that.

Do you trust your composer's opinion on the music, or don't you? Can he write music that works? It sounds like you have somebody who is either immune to your constant interference, guidance, advice, criticism or doesn't care.

You speak of your composer as if you don't trust him all the time. You think you know best, so why even have him work on it if you don't trust his judgement? I think most decent composers would find working like this impossible.

I wouldn't be surprise the composer is working on trade for services or some sort on non monetary compensation. Can you really imagine a legit composer taking this project and putting up with all this? The client you described sounds like someone else we know.