Oh okay, but that's what I have been doing. I will tell him the sound I want, and then he says that instrument is. I then know the instrument because he tells me after. That's how I know the instruments so far.

Then why have you been so confused about the difference between a transverse flute, fipple flute, clarinet, etc.? Why have you been so concerned about whether something is a real recording, sampled, or synthesized? Why are we involved in this process?

Give him the sample. Don't tell him what you think the sample is, just give him the sample and say "like this" and see what he gives you. If you then want some minor change, work that out later.

Maybe fast tuba would be appropriate considering what has transpired here for the past two years.

If I'm not mistaken, the original version of this post was better!

Then why have you been so confused about the difference between a transverse flute, fipple flute, clarinet, etc.? Why have you been so concerned about whether something is a real recording, sampled, or synthesized? Why are we involved in this process?

Give him the sample. Don't tell him what you think the sample is, just give him the sample and say "like this" and see what he gives you. If you then want some minor change, work that out later.

Oh well I didn't ask him about those types of woodwinds exactly, just the ones I wanted him to make it sound like. But since he couldn't get the bass native American flute in his repertoire, I then just asked about others to explore other options. I was just curious about other opinions on here about it as well. But I am much more certain on all the other instrument sounds I want from him. Getting that type of flute sound is a tough one though.

If I'm not mistaken, the original version of this post was better!

He may have self-censored to avoid getting deleted

If I'm not mistaken, the original version of this post was better!

He may have self-censored to avoid getting deleted
For some reason after reading a few of his posts, I tend to lose my patients and temper. I keep telling myself stay positive don't get mad it's only Ryan. The angel on my shoulder made me edit it. After all I don't want coal in my stocking.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to frustrate anyone or make them mad. I am just asking for advice, and do appreciate the advice!

I just want to try to find a balance, because in the past, if I do not give the composer specific instructions, the scores didn't come out sounding like what I was looking for. I was just trying to find a way to be more specific and guideful. But I don't mean to make anyone frustrated or mad. I apologize.

Greg - download the demo of the Pianoteq piano. It's not even that expensive and the quality is so good my composer friend doesn't record his C3 Yamaha any more, but uses the Pianoteq product. It can also do that strange half-pedal thing where you can make a similar sound to the one you mention.

Ryan - try to imagine what would happen if you were colour blind, and gave instructions to colourists. Or were deaf and tried to assist the sound mixer? This is what you do. You simply do not have the vocabulary or skill base to 'advise' on music. It could also be that your musical viewpoint is skewed.

I do know that I could NEVER work with you. I assume murder, by ice axe, or garrotting is a crime in Saskatoon?

Oh okay, but don't I have some say in what I want the music to sound like though, and thus picking those sounds? Like for example, I told the composer I like the sound of a certain instrument from a certain example track. He said it was a bass trombone. So I said yes that's it, give me a bass trombone then. But is that bad of me to suggest that?

I do know that I could NEVER work with you. I assume murder, by ice axe, or garrotting is a crime in Saskatoon?
LOL

Oh okay, but don't I have some say in what I want the music to sound like though, and thus picking those sounds? Like for example, I told the composer I like the sound of a certain instrument from a certain example track. He said it was a bass trombone. So I said yes that's it, give me a bass trombone then. But is that bad of me to suggest that?
There are ideas and approaches that have merit but you misinterpret and grossly over use them to point of madness.

A normal approach would be to describe the sound and feel you want for the movie and you'd have back and forth until you're on the same page. Then you describe the mood for a scene then let the composer do his thing.

You act like you're building the Sistine chapel. When in reality you're producing and substandard amateur movie, that won't ever see a movie theater. Throw caution to the wind, let your composer do his thing. The success of this movie isn't hanging in the balance for want of a perfect sound track. Stop copying feature films and be original and creative.

Paul, if I can (again) divert for a moment...

Now I know you're not a drummer, but you seem to know a lot about music theory, mixing, composing, etc.

So I started playing drums last year. Unfortunately I can only own an e-kit cause of noise/neighbors. Of course I am super jealous of anyone who regularly gets to play acoustic drums.

I've watched a ton of tutorial videos on drums from different youtube creators, and I have to ask...what is it about acoustic drums that (often) makes them sound better than the e-kit? Theoretically, they shouldn't....using Superior Drummer 3, Steven Slate, (I run through Superior Drummer) etc. etc., you are dealing with professionally recorded (high end studio, legendary producers, etc) high quality samples, and yet, I would say most of the time the acoustic kits just sound better, in the videos I've watched. Doesn't seem like it should be that way...if you mic and record a real kick/snare etc. well, and my e kit generates a sample of that recording when I hit my kick/snare, that SHOULD sound just as good, and yet, there' s something just "missing". And this is with presets in SD that have all manner of EQ/comp/reverb, or as dry as you want.

I dunno, maybe it's all psychological. or it's hearing the clonk of my stick on a rubber cymbal underneath the sweet sound of a hi-hat.

LOL


There are ideas and approaches that have merit but you misinterpret and grossly over use them to point of madness.

A normal approach would be to describe the sound and feel you want for the movie and you'd have back and forth until you're on the same page. Then you describe the mood for a scene then let the composer do his thing.

You act like you're building the Sistine chapel. When in reality you're producing and substandard amateur movie, that won't ever see a movie theater. Throw caution to the wind, let your composer do his thing. The success of this movie isn't hanging in the balance for want of a perfect sound track. Stop copying feature films and be original and creative.

Oh okay, but when describing to the composer, is it still good to give him samples, to help me explain? Can't the composer take those sounds I am looking for and make it his own rather than me trying to explain without any examples whatsoever? Even though they are trying to create something original, we still need to know what sounds we are going to use to get that, don't we?

You can give examples of what you're thinking of, however, you don't need to go into endless detail of particular instruments. The composer can pick that up from listening to the track(s), you don't need to know precisely how they achieve it, you should be listening out for how well it works your film. That's your job as the director, not trying to decide if that's the same flute.

Ryan - it's fine to give him ideas of music that has worked for other movies that you think would suit. That's what you do, then you forget about it. Don't describe or attempt to help - just say like the instrument at 00:38 like you did for me. Let him work it out.

Josh - Oddly, Drums are the one thing I can't play well because I cannot do four limbs at the same time, but I have an electronic kit here and a real one. The real one is not good, but with some work, sounds very real. My theory on this is because most electronic kits have different degrees of sampling. So between a quiet tickle and a full on thrapp, MIDI only has 127 levels, and realistically they get squeezed into far less, but the sample or synthesised sound for that drum might only have three or maybe a few more different tones that get played at different volumes. So the quietest tickle sample suddenly changes to a harder sound, at only a tiny bit louder when you go from MIDI 30 to 31. On top of this, there must be hundreds of different sounds by where you hit the drum too.

I've got a few drum sets in Cubase and some are much, much better than the sounds in my electronic kit's brain. What I'm finding is that my drums now sound better than what I can physically play, and some of them might have 20 or 30 phrases that the machine plays and these are much better than what I program or play. I guess you are finding the same as me - even if I record twice, kick snare first pass and then I add the hats and cymbals, it still sounds a bit naff. Excellent drummers seem to coax more out, but there is a feel from a real skin, and those flex heads like you find in the Rolands, are better than the solid rubber - so my opinion is like yours. However, my son had a drum teacher, who now plays in a technically complex show band - he uses a real miked up snare, real cymbals, but electronic toms and kick - this he says is the best sound, and nicer to play.

I sorta get that. Toms you (typically) only use occasionally and (typically) hit almost exclusively in the center, kicks even if youre an expert player, are hit the exact same way each time, only with varying degrees of hardness. Snare cymbals etc on the other hand sound will depend on stick type, which part of the stick hits, WHERE it hits, as well as how hard etc, so there’s much more room for expression, so it makes sense to let the snare and cymbals be real while toms and kick are samples.

Yep - and drummers buy loads of different sticks don't they, and these don't get modelled by the brain. Quite a few of my drummer friends are now putting triggers on their real kits so they can get extra sounds, or negate the need to buy extra drums. They're late to the party, but my God they are now drinking hard. One band we work with (or used to) had such a complex drum setup, it travels set up inside an enormous flight case that lets it go in the truck in one piece. They roll it into position, lift the lid off and plug in the preset mics and sampler outputs! He has a butt kicker too - if you've never tried one, and get the chance have a go it's madness. You hit the kick hard and your bum fires into the air!

Sounds cool.

As I said I run through superior drummer...so the kit brain sounds are bypassed, midi data sent through SD instead, so I hit the snare and it generates a snare sound from SD. there actually are some brush kits/samples and things like that, and you can probably buy add on packs. More advanced pads and kits support positional sensing which knows where you are on a drum (i.e. how far between center and edge and approximates that sound by mixing center and edge samples, whereas my simpler kit has a sharp cutoff between edge sounds and center sounds, no grey area.

You can give examples of what you're thinking of, however, you don't need to go into endless detail of particular instruments. The composer can pick that up from listening to the track(s), you don't need to know precisely how they achieve it, you should be listening out for how well it works your film. That's your job as the director, not trying to decide if that's the same flute.

Oh okay. Well I didn't think I went into endless detail. I thought I would just tell him the instrument and sound like, and he would tell me. But I feel I have to point out the sounds I want, because in the past, if I didn't, the composers would not use those same instruments at all, and it wouldn't sound like what I wanted.

If I could take a break from talking about Ryan's movie and his never ending problems.

I wanted to wish everyone a Merry Christmas.

I couldn't follow half the things you guys were talking about. It's like a different language. Now I know what my clients must hear when I talk video jargon.

I just completed editing an organ concert that I filmed the other day. I was amazed by the skillful of playing of such an instrument and the wonderful songs. Ahhh music! gets me every time.

I just completed editing an organ concert that I filmed the other day. I was amazed by the skillful of playing of such an instrument and the wonderful songs. Ahhh music! gets me every time.

Is it OK to discuss audio here? I'm curious what sort of mics you used, and how you placed them. Of course this will involve description of the space and the instrument. There seem to be a huge range of opinions about recording organ (partly because no two organs or spaces are the same). What did you do; how did it work out?

Oh okay. Well I didn't think I went into endless detail. I thought I would just tell him the instrument and sound like, and he would tell me. But I feel I have to point out the sounds I want, because in the past, if I didn't, the composers would not use those same instruments at all, and it wouldn't sound like what I wanted.

Providing the example tracks should solve this. If this is your feature film the composer could provide a number of short demos of the music, before composing the entire sound track, so that you can hear their proposed music.

This is more about communication, the composer should know how to create or source the required instruments.

I guess we’re in the audio section and We’ve done all we can for Ryan again.

Organs are amazing things and for my birthday in May last year, my wife bought me a session with an organist at a very large church where I have actually done a few recordings. Inside it revealed why sometimes they record oddly. The ranks of pipes you see sitting there were dummies! They’re crammed into every space. Things have been bodged over the years and some are even split ranks, where half are in one place but the rest squeezed into a space on the other side of a stone pillar, daft things like this. When you record, you record the sound of this crazy setup, hidden away, that escapes through spaces at the top and gets to the ears via the building’s acoustics. So when you record organ, you are recording the building, that just has an organ in it. This means the best place for a stereo pair of microphones might not be on the centre line of the nave, which is where we always put them, BUT, if you put the mics where the centre line of the physical organ loft is, you might get a reverb trail that lurches off to one side. Even worse, the huge size of some organs means there are obvious time delays between a bass note on one stop, and a treble pipe on a rank somewhere else. The room sound makes this into something focussed, so you need to wander around and find the special place. In some situations maybe even spaced techniques not coincident ones might be best, if the space is not very nice sounding, for example. Part of my present was being able, with my limited keyboard skills, to play the thing and it was so odd. Some of the original ranks of pipes are played with tracker wire, basically a bit of wire from the keys to the valves below the pipes, and pressing a key gives you a delay, then the note. Other newer additions are worked via electronics and sound more instantly, and a few done by pneumatics which sort of come in between. Add in delay from the more distant pipes and you have to play by feel, not your ears. And of course, there’s a huge motor blowing air which sounds like a railway train in some organs. Some record well, some are really awful. I did one recording, thankfully with a close miked singer for a video where the organ got totally replaced. It was old and so out of tune on some notes, you winced. Replacing the organ was actually quite hard because not only out of tune, it was globally out of tune. A hundred and fifty years ago it had been tuned by a dodgy tuning pipe, and ever since, because not all pipes could be returned, it had been tuned wrongly, repeatedly! In the old days, a new organ was tuned by simply taking a pipe from one church to another and using that, so like railway time, it wasnt that accurate. I had to raise the singers pitch half a semi-tone to put it right!

The picture is a good example. Church with two naves, one with a choir and the organ in the other. Choir mics in their section had hardly any organ so two sets of mics blended in the studio. It was a washy mess wherever I tried

For Ryan.
This features samples used for synthesis. I got an offer today so bought it. It explains maybe how it doesn't;t matter how sounds are created nowadays, absolutely weird but useful for movies I think.

https://youtu.be/UBlMCizA4Gs
Here's a walkthrough Watch this and see how the synth and sample content work together. maybe you'll get it.

https://youtu.be/g6q0ciCwZKE?list=RDUBlMCizA4Gs

My audio approach to the organ concert was unsophisticated. I didn't fully understand how organ worked, but now I have a better idea. It's situated up in a small choir loft. The pipes are hidden away in separate room with grates to let the sound out. I position a Zoom H1 to record up in the loft, which worked good but picked up the squeaking of the floor boards when I moved. I adjusted the mix for the sections to remove the noise. Which I'm uploaded the corrections as we speak.

My second mic (Zoom H5) I positioned down in the center of the sanctuary. There are additional pipes and grates at the back wall. I think these could be for the lower tones. This mic picked up more of the acoustics of the large space.

The audio results came out good but it was a pretty easy recording since there was only one instrument the organ. I brought a lot of equipment like 302 and various mics but I didn't have the time to use them and I didn't think they would help. I was more concentrated on the visuals. I also had challenges in that area too. I can't believe how much time I spent tweaking things. Every time I re-watch it I notice something new to fix.

CBI Organ Concert 1-8-21 on Vimeo

If that was your first organ outing you did a great job being honest. Did you notice the changes in location as she swaps manuals. I'm sure you know bit for others maybe - the closed box with the louvres is a section of the organ called the swell - the Louvre foot flaps open and close following the pedal the organist can use to make the sound swell, or fade away, with a change in brightness too. The other ranks are the Great - a collection of the classic origin tones - and these are fixed in volume - pull the stop and that's the volume. No variation apart from selecting a quieter one! Bigger organs like this will then have a choir - melodic pipes that provide the 'filling' and then sometimes orchestra - where the sounds mimic orchestral instruments, where you find flutes, brass and woodwind sounds. The trouble with organs is that it's these ranks of pipes that are about in the open, that often end up a long way away. If you get the placement right - when suddenly the oboes join in - the stereo field suddenly opens up, which can sound great. American churches I've noticed are less reverberant than English churches, so can come across a bit dry when the they play big multi-stop combinations - the range in volume can be wide too - like when she plays on the lower manual. You also have the bass to consider - the big 16 and 32 ft pipes that can be humungously loud. The end of the popular Widor Toccata for example where it often seems like every rank is playing, and played by every limb and finger available!

Pete,

That's a nice recording. I presume you did *not* have the recorders at too high an elevation above the floor, since you didn't mention stands. In the range from "more organ" to "more room" I'd say your recording falls toward the "more organ" end. Some folks seem to favor the "more room" end of the range, to the extent that I find the organ - and the playing - poorly defined.

The pipes in the rear of the sanctuary are usually called the "echo organ." Not necessarily for just lower notes. Often containing softer or more mellow-sounding ranks of pipes for a more ethereal effect ... at least in the organs I've heard.

What Peter refers to as Louvres (Not the museum) would be spelled "louvers" in the US. That part of the instrument (which opens and closes to control sound from the organ's "swell" section) is alternatively called, in the US at least, "shutters."

Ha! Another difference to add to my book! I've never heard the US spelling of that word (not to be honest that many people here actually spell it right, for once, the US spelling might actually be better.

You know electric cars that don't have an engine (motor?) at the front? We've started a new word for a luggage space at the pointy end of a car - I'm hearing English people use the term "frunk" - your trunk works better than our "boot" - fboot, or foot wouldn't work would it!

Very best wishes to everyone for Christmas - Weather here has been heavy rain for a couple of days, with high winds, and my son's a police officer. He just got home telling us they called the army out as many small villages near us are flooded when the rivers broke their banks!

Thanks for the kind words. This was my first organ recording. The H5 was on a mic stand. I wasn’t expecting to use the H1 so I improvised by placing it on chair seat to elevate it. The volume in the sanctuary wasn’t as high as I expected even with the H5 at 8. I was lucky that the levels were high enough but didn't clip. That’s always the risk of unattended recorders because you do a sound check and then you get a song that's really loud and it clips. In classical music you can get such extreme highs and lows. I think you’re right the pipes at the back are more for acoustic effect.

We've started a new word for a luggage space at the pointy end of a car - I'm hearing English people use the term "frunk" - your trunk works better than our "boot" - fboot, or foot wouldn't work would it!

If it's a boot at the pointy end, why not call it a "poot"?

There should only be a poot in the car if youre driving alone...

Somehow, though, that's not how it turns out in real life. The passengers know what's coming when all the windows start rolling down simultaneously.

Sounds like someone who’s too comfortable and confident in their relationship with those other people

They'd do the same thing to me. That's why God created chili. Besides, at least I open the windows.


I just realized it's already Christmas across the pond, and soon will be here. So let me take a sec. to wish all of you Happy Holidays.

And best wishes for a 2021 that almost surely will be better than 2020. Check out the link I've posted in another thread:
https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/open-dv-discussion/537740-award-winning-year-end-psa.html#post1963000

Peace, out.
Greg

Well some filmmakers advised me to save money and just do the music myself like other microbudget filmmakers have done such as Robert Rodriguez, Shane Carruth, or Melvin Van Peebles. But even though I know what sounds I want, I don't think I could actually compose the melodies though. But maybe it's worth a shot with practice to save money like they said... Of course this would be done in post, but just budgeting now.

Ryan I hope nobody in your family ever needs surgery, as clearly, you could whip out the odd appendix, or fix a slipped disc.

Then best you could do is use the music from the tracks you like so much. I cannot believe a non-musical person really believes they have the skills and talent to do this? What is your piano playing like? Or any other instrument? I'm totally stunned.

I presume your composer has told you to stick it?

No the composer is very interested still, I just don't know if he would be available later on, and I was still trying to save money.

I can play piano but it's mostly memorization of melodies that are already written down, rather than actually creating the music. But yeah, perhaps I am trying to do too much myself.

No perhaps about it Ryan. Leave the music to musicians.

Sure, I can leave it to the composer. Thank you very much everyone for all the advice!

I was wondering, since music sampling has become so good now, does it look bad for a microbudget movie if the score is really good sounding, since it doesn't cost that much because of the technology? Like if the score sounds so much more higher budget than the rest of the movie, is that bad? Or is it good to go for the best score you can get?

Of course not, just as having really good acting or photography doesn't. It just means that talented people are working on the film and who are working for free in order to get experience. It all depends on the people the filmmaker knows and those who are available in their location and can be persuaded to work on the film.

You always go for the best you can achieve, but that will also depend on the people you're working with and any baggage you and they are bringing to the production.

You sort of answered it. Stop calling it sampling. It’s just music production, like using ‘film’ when we don’t use it anymore. Success is down to the skil of the person doing it and technology is no barrier, only to your wallet. If you are able to have high quality music, it’s never a negative because people don’t notice it. Everyone knows the Harry Potter music, but ONLY the theme. If you play the track called Hedwig’s Journey, do you remember that one, or even notice it in the movie?

In EVERY aspect of your movie, you should go for the best. Individually or collectively, less than your best is a fail. One good area does not recover the feel from the bad ones. The worst is what audiences remember.

Alright thanks. When I watch other microbudget movies, they don't go that big on the music, so I thought if I did, it might come off as overdone, if other ones do not. But if making it the biggest and best it can be is good, I can ask the composer to do that.

I really don't understand Ryan - when I get a commission to compose ANYTHING, I do my best to make it the biggest and best. I cannot imagine any musician needing to be asked to do that by the director or producer? Music doesn't;t have to be big of course - some movies might have huge orchestras, while others have a score done by one guy and a computer - the outcome has nothing to do with big or best, but simply most appropriate. If there was a sad scene - you could play a piece of sad piano music - just piano, and it could be an amazing fit. Frankly, now, you can be as big as you like I you have the right sounds in your arsenal.

I'd leave music alone Ryan - it's not something you understand or seem to be strong with.

Okay that makes sense. But the composer is leaving some things to my call to make, and I am not sure what call to make. I can save this for later after it's shot of course, but still wondering what call to make on certain things for later though of course.

“Mr. Composer, my movie is going to be an underwhelming mess, and since I strive for tonal consistency, please make the music the same. Thanks homie.”

. But the composer is leaving some things to my call to make, and I am not sure what call to make. I can save this for later after it's shot of course, but still wondering what call to make on certain things for later though of course.

Leave decisions as late as possible, because you'll change your mind in the meantime, so calls are a pointless exercise if not needed.

Okay that makes sense. But the composer is leaving some things to my call to make, and I am not sure what call to make. I can save this for later after it's shot of course, but still wondering what call to make on certain things for later though of course.
Big picture Ryan you don't have the budget for a composer. If you're able film this movie then you can come up with the most economical way to add music.

The composer no doubt has picked up on that you're an unqualified, indecisive micromanager, and has concluded it be waste of his time making musical decision that you'll likely override and change. You strike me as someone who pumps a professional for information then instead of hiring them, you try to do it yourself. You embody many "bad" client characteristics.

Oh I thought I had the budget for a composer or at least I could do the budget again. I asked the composer if I was micromanaging him, and he said no, I am fine, and he never felt that way.

It could be that Ryan only has these exhaustive discussions on HERE and talks to his composer etc. once a month.

In my whole life I have NEVER told a client that they're a pain to work with. None of your people every tell you the truth, that' very clear. I'm sure you're a lovely person, but you sound like a real client from hell. Last week I told a client that sadly, I will be too busy on a long term project to squeeze him in, and I was so sorry I could not assist him. He bombarded me with requests, clearly had no contingency budget and had believed the planning people who he'd obviously confused, so that they said he did not need planning permission when it was clear to me he did. All my alarm bells were ringing, so I made up an excuse, and breathed a sigh of relief.

Oh okay. Well I can only go by what he tells me I guess. He said that I was quicker to work with than most people, because the requests were much more specific compared to other clients, so the process was faster so far he said. But we can wait till the movie is over before we finish of course.