The music only helps if you're using some to get your thought processes going, however, the instrumentation shouldn't make much difference. I used the music I had used during the writing of the script as temp tracks, but it was the mood and tempo that mattered, not the instruments used. It was an eclectic mix that worked with the film, but the final sound track was more homogeneous in nature.

I'm in the office, which has the cheapest version of Cubase installed on it - the Halion SE VSTi has two flutes that would fit perfectly sounding very similar to the clip you posted - it comes with the software. Buy your composer Cubase and stop worrying - and then maybe he can learn some modern music technology skills, which will have developed by the time your movie gets made?
This is what it looks like

Oh okay thanks. Well my composer already has logic pro X, and he has a variety of instruments already on it. I just thought maybe we need more flutes to choose from buy maybe we don't... But is logic pro x, not up to task?

I would think Logic is fine...theyre all just DAW programs that do the same thing in slightly different ways, just like various brands of video editing software.

I know Im farting into the wind at this point, but, again, instead of wasting your time with this (and it is at this stage a complete waste of time at this point since, as others have said, youve not even finished the script), you could use this downtime to make short films on your own, starring only yourself, and experiment with the seven million cinematography/sound/editing techniques youve asked about for the last two years. Thats what someone who REALLY wanted to get better at filmmaking would do.

Oh okay. Well I have been expirementing more with the sound and editing. I usually like to leave the cinematography up to a seperate cinematographer while I direct, and thought that would be better, but I can expirement there as well.

The music only helps if you're using some to get your thought processes going, however, the instrumentation shouldn't make much difference. I used the music I had used during the writing of the script as temp tracks, but it was the mood and tempo that mattered, not the instruments used. It was an eclectic mix that worked with the film, but the final sound track was more homogeneous in nature.

Oh okay, maybe it's just the way I hear things, but to me, an instrument can make a huge difference in terms of feeling and tone, but that's just me.

I think that's just you, it's how the musician plays an instrument together with the orchestration and arrangement that has the bigger impact than a particular instrument without these factors coming into play. Otherwise what you could do with instruments would be extremely limited.

Your difficulty in selecting an instrument would tend to confirm this.

You still seem to be copy and pasting. Thrillers can have many types of music, depending on their world. "The Third Man" used a zither, the composer was heard playing the instrument at a party in Vienna by the director.

The Third Man - Anton Karas - YouTube

Oh okay, but I thought that different instruments would evoke a different feeling though. For example, if you were to take a piece like this and replace all the brass with strings, or non-brass instruments, wouldn't that give a very different feel:

Main Titles - YouTube

Or wouldn't a more electronic sounding track like this one, sound very different it were replaced with mostly brass?

To Live and Die In L.A. Track 5 “City Of The Angels� Wang Chung - YouTube

I think it would but that's just me. But also what makes you think I have difficulty selecting instrument. I picked a lot of the instruments I like so far, so why do you say I have difficulty?

As for copying and pasting, I don't want to copy and paste but I feel I need to give the composer some examples as to what I want, and then he can make it his own from there, as long as it's not hugely different from what I am looking for.

You seem to obsessing about selecting instruments and then asking people, who don't know much about your proposed film, what they think about this instrument or that instrument. How do we know what will work with your film? That's for you to discover, you're the director. From your limited examples it sounds like copying and pasting.

A cigar box guitar might work just as well or better, we don't know.

Dusk Brothers - Hold On [OFFICIAL VIDEO] - YouTube

Oh okay thanks. I don't think that that guitar would work well for mine, at least not from hearing it in that playing style so far. But thanks. Well in terms if choice of instrument making a difference, in this track for example, which is also one of the example tracks, why did they choose a tuba?

Sub-Main Title / Cussing Out the Joker / I Had a Bad Day (From The Episode "Joker's Favor") - YouTube

If instruments don't matter so much, then why didn't they go with a double bass for example? Why did they choose a tuba specifically?

They used the tuba because it can be a humorous instrument - the Joker. However, I suspect the director didn't sit with the composer saying I want a tuba.

Yeah I thought it was because the tuba was humorous. Well what I could do is let the composer do it without making suggestions, but if it doesn't sound humorous enough, should I just tell him that then, and then maybe he will pick more humorous sounding instruments? Or since it was suggested to me before on here, that maybe I shouldn't go for as humorous of a tone, perhaps a double bass would be better because then the music sounds a little humorous without being too humorous perhaps.

If you tell them that you're after humour, a composer will know what to do with their instrument choice, without any backseat driving.

Edit Leave this to the composer. If they don't want the tuba to sound humorous, I'm sure they can do it.

Oh okay, but if I want them to pick something that sounds like brass or a viol, for the majority of it, is it okay to tell them that too without backseat driving?

You can say you want a brassy sound, but it to them.

A more serious tuba
Heavy Tuba Experience "Sick Hammond" - YouTube

Oh okay, thanks. I thought the tuba could be used for serious parts as well, if we do not go for the double bass. Well as far as the instrument not mattering as much, in this example track I gave him here:

György Ligeti ~ Musica Ricercata, II [Mesto, Rigido E Cerimoniale] - YouTube

Would the tone and feeling be changed around if you went with a guitar for example? I thought maybe guitar might make it sound too peaceful, unless maybe it wouldn't. The composer said a guitar would be too light and we need an instrument that is heavier for that kind of feel, if he is correct?

But I guess there are times when I feel the instrument matters or doesn't matter, and it depends. I decided to ask to the composer to use a cello instead of a harmonica instead, if that would be better.

How the instrument is performed and the nature of the music is all part of creating a mood. You're regarding all this in a simplistic manner, a guitar doesn't have to be peaceful, but the feel would be different, Of course, it's what the composer makes of it.

Amazing Guitar Percussion - YouTube

Ben Lacy - guitar percussion - YouTube

Yeah that's true. But I guess the reasons why a lot of musical pieces of several different instruments is because they still prefer certain instrument sounds, so it's good to pick based on sound as well, after you have picked the tone, and feeling or no?

One I do have trouble picking with is a double bass or a bass guitar, for pizzacato style. They sound very much alike, so it's hard to pick for example, but the composer says it's my choice.

Your composer doesn't sound that strong a character or he just can't be bothered arguing with you.

You repeatedly try to control every single thing in your movies that you have no skills in. You like certain instruments. No, you don’t. You like a particular playing style you have heard, played on that instrument. Part of what I do is copying certain songs. Most times you say flute, clarinet, fretless bass, but often you hear the sound but cannot identify it. I recreate what I hear but frequently discover a note my instrument cannot play, so it could not for instance have been a violin, it must have been a viola. As a non-musician your input is interference and not helpful. Why tie your composers hands behind his back and force him into narrow corridors with no escape. A total mismatch of tones that will be hell to squeeze in. Like the old script writers exasperation trick when fed up with unwanted input, where they put in words at random. Their close friends bet them they cannot get “conjugate” in the script somewhere without the director getting the joke. Sometimes the words progressively get sillier with each rewrite.

Logic, by the way is fine, and he has all these sounds, so leave the man alone, or get a soundtrack designed by committee.

Your total randomness in picking instruments before it’s time just shows how little you understand music. You have also started to use the term “we” not “he” which shows you believe you are a co-composer, and you are not.

You repeatedly try to control every single thing in your movies that you have no skills in. You like certain instruments. No, you don’t. You like a particular playing style you have heard, played on that instrument. Part of what I do is copying certain songs. Most times you say flute, clarinet, fretless bass, but often you hear the sound but cannot identify it. I recreate what I hear but frequently discover a note my instrument cannot play, so it could not for instance have been a violin, it must have been a viola. As a non-musician your input is interference and not helpful. Why tie your composers hands behind his back and force him into narrow corridors with no escape. A total mismatch of tones that will be hell to squeeze in. Like the old script writers exasperation trick when fed up with unwanted input, where they put in words at random. Their close friends bet them they cannot get “conjugate” in the script somewhere without the director getting the joke. Sometimes the words progressively get sillier with each rewrite.

Logic, by the way is fine, and he has all these sounds, so leave the man alone, or get a soundtrack designed by committee.

Your total randomness in picking instruments before it’s time just shows how little you understand music. You have also started to use the term “we” not “he” which shows you believe you are a co-composer, and you are not.

Yeah I know I like the instrument in particular playing styles. But I don't tell the composer use this instrument. I will show the composer an example track of what I want, and ask him what that instrument is particular, and he will tell me and I will tell him I would that, but played in a similar style of course, like in the example. Or if he suggests something better, and shows me, great. I always ask him what the instruments I like played in the style first though.

But is that bad of me?

It still too early for this type of detail, what you think you need now may prove to be redundant in the final film. The composer may have to create emotions and moods which you, your actors and DP have failed to capture. That's what music is commonly used for and it's extremely unlikely that you will know what will be required in advance. .

But is that bad of me?
Probably.

You change your tune more than the musicians.

Well it's just that in the past, when I just told composers to do their things and I left them alone without collaborating more, the music wasn't what I wanted much at all, so I thought I should collaborate more and be more specific, if that would help.

It still too early for this type of detail, what you think you need now may prove to be redundant in the final film. The composer may have to create emotions and moods which you, your actors and DP have failed to capture. That's what music is commonly used for and it's extremely unlikely that you will know what will be required in advance. .

Oh okay. But even if the actors are expressing different emotions, I am still shooting in a way, with the music in mind though. The camera could still be moving with that music in mind while shooting, and the shot choices are still done with the music in mind, as well as the cinematography and production desgin. So is it worth changing the music later if the actors are acting differently, if everything else was set up for that specific music during shooting?

You can try that, but you'll be in such a scramble to get the shots that, chances are, any musical co-ordination with the camera will disappear once the reality kicks in.

There's a reason why almost all films have the music composed when the film has been mostly edited to a final picture lock.

Oh okay. I just thought would help the style of the shooting if I knew roughly what kind of music I was shooting too for the final edit, roughly.

I’ll be honest, there are many things Ryan believes (misguidedly) that I can say “Yeah, I could see why he would think that, it almost makes sense, if you didnt know better,” but this one is beyond me.

There is an wall surrounding Ryan that no amount of reasoning can penetrate. Always reminds me of the scene from This is Spinal Tap, where Nigel ignores what Rob Reiner says and looks blankly back "... but these go to 11".

To an outside observer, reading your post for two years, it's clear that this movie mainly serves as vehicle for you do whatever you want. Unfortunately, indulging your every whim and ignoring the standardized practices of movie production will lead you no where.

Oh okay, I wanted to get as much done as I can now with covid, but I can do more of it after, if that's best, with the composer.

Oh okay, I wanted to get as much done as I can now with covid, but I can do more of it after, if that's best, with the composer.
You sound like a jumble mess, copying ideas from films, second guessing yourself and others you work with, planning to death everything, doing things out of order...

Maybe you should go out into the wilderness for as long as it takes to discover who you are and what's your purpose in life. Without an inner calm, confidence, and purpose you're doomed to this chaotic storm you seem to always caught up in.

I’ll be honest, there are many things Ryan believes (misguidedly) that I can say “Yeah, I could see why he would think that, it almost makes sense, if you didnt know better,” but this one is beyond me.

You can know roughly, but you don't need to know this level of detail. Knowing that a certain piece sounds like a possible starting point is all you need. Going into endless detail on the instrumentation now is just pure masturbation (as I one film called at Cannes).

Well I don't think it's wrong to take inspirations from other movies, is there? Other filmmakers do it as well.

But you don't take inspiration, you lift and copy - and have done this over and over again, and are eternally surprised when it goes wrong.

I don't think I have ever shot video to music already existing, apart from music videos. The composers job is to work to picture, not the other way around. I want scary, or lovey, or on edge, or suspenseful, or relaxing, or relaxing suddenly changing to something else at a certain point. People have given me examples of music they found that supported this. Not once has anyone every said "I want a bass flute", or a harmonica. Providing a harmonica as an example would be fine, or the breathy flute, but we are in a creative, cast and crew industry and everyone falls into one category, or maybe two - hardly ever all three. Sadly, you're not very creative, and struggle at being one of the crew. I was lighting a band once, and realised the guy standing in the wings was the Lighting Designer who had just done Genesis and the Rolling Stones. It made me extremely uncomfortable. It made me realise that while technically, I'm pretty competent, artistically I'm not that creative. Ryan doesn't understand this at all. He has his fifteen volume rule book, and still believes that by following page 43, followed by 225, he will have a hit, because Zeffirelli used the trick and so did Ridley Scott so it will absolutely work.

Well I don't think it's wrong to take inspirations from other movies, is there? Other filmmakers do it as well.
This is the key. You are repeatedly misunderstanding other filmmaker's techniques and turning inspiration into mimicry. Other filmmakers use it for inspiration and produce things better.

Oh okay but when I tell composers what I want I'm not following a rule book am i?

You can be inspired by an idea or a technique used, but you have to make it your own. Just because it was used in someone else's film. doesn't mean it's appropriate for your film.

In this case, you seem to be copy and pasting the instruments used in other films, you're seemingly not paying any attention to the mood or the pacing or other aspects of the music which will be particular to your film. .

Well I don't think it's wrong to take inspirations from other movies, is there? Other filmmakers do it as well.
It seems all you're capable of lifting ideas directly form others work to create patch work quilt you call you own. I have far more respect for someone who follows their own vision and does something that is original, even if it fails. Because even with that failure they are growing stronger by the process of creating. When you copy you become weaker because you are building a dependency on other people's ideas. You'd be far better off not looking at another movie until you can stand on your own two feet.

It may very well be you lack the ability for this creativity. There is no harm it. Just do something else that doesn't require it. Its better to accept your limitations and put your efforts in where they are well suited.

Oh okay, I want the music to be the composers own of course. But don't I need to give some sort of examples? He can then take those examples and make them his own as long as it's what I like but is that not good?

You can give some examples of the music you think might work, but don't get involved in micromanaging the type of flute being used, that's the composer's job.

Oh okay, well the reason why I thought of a bass flute is because I didn't want the composer to pick something that sounded too strange for the project necessarily, but maybe that would be a good thing.

But when I told him I wanted a cello for certain parts of it, is that bad of me to say for example? He might suggest something I like better, which is good.

Again, that type of detail can wait until the composer is working with the final film. Given the amount of time until the music will be required, that leaves a fair amount of time for you to go through endless changes on the instruments that you may want in this music

The length of this thread over a month would seem to indicate that there could be quite a few changes over a number of months..

Ok okay thanks. You're right I will wait till the final film. But I was thinking of what some filmmakers have done and play the music during shooting the scene for the actors to get the feel of, like Sergio Leone did, unless that's a bad idea?

What you are repeatedly missing is the understanding or appreciation of WHY one composer chose an instrument and most importantly how it was played. Not once have you said I want a cello played spiccato, rather than staccato. Picking an instrument without guidance is pointless.

Liking something is no guarantee it is musically appropriate. As we keep saying, you insist on making decisions you shouldn’t. You don’t trust your people. If you are a top league director, your micro management could be very appropriate. We’ve given loads of examples of composers, actors, DoPs being overruled and it working, but this result is very rare and unlikely in the majority of cases.

Shoot the movie, do the editing and then the composer will know how to fit music to whatever your plan morphed into.

Remember your old projects and how crazy circumstances required heavy changes? Why write music for scenes you will savage later.

I'm aware of Sergio Leone doing it, but you don't have the resources of any of his films, which also used looped dialogue (ADR today), as was the the Italian method at the time. So, you could play music and shoot directions without worrying about the sound.

I'm aware of Sergio Leone doing it, but you don't have the resources of any of his films, which also used looped dialogue (ADR today), as was the the Italian method at the time. So, you could play music and shoot directions without worrying about the sound.
Oh but I thought I could do it during scenes that were not so dialogue driven when dialogue was not being spoken. But yeah, I won't do it then and save it for later.

What you are repeatedly missing is the understanding or appreciation of WHY one composer chose an instrument and most importantly how it was played. Not once have you said I want a cello played spiccato, rather than staccato. Picking an instrument without guidance is pointless.

Liking something is no guarantee it is musically appropriate. As we keep saying, you insist on making decisions you shouldn’t. You don’t trust your people. If you are a top league director, your micro management could be very appropriate. We’ve given loads of examples of composers, actors, DoPs being overruled and it working, but this result is very rare and unlikely in the majority of cases.

Shoot the movie, do the editing and then the composer will know how to fit music to whatever your plan morphed into.

Remember your old projects and how crazy circumstances required heavy changes? Why write music for scenes you will savage later.

Yeah that's true. I can save the music for later. I wasn't giving the composer instruments without context. I would show a composer an example track to work of and would say I like that instrument and the way it's being played, and he would tell me what it was, and then I would say I want that, or something like that.

You didn't say that earlier, you said you picked the instrument, not him. You also repeatedly talked just about the instrument and only in the latest Clint Eastwood clips did you mention anything about playing styles. Like when you said you wanted a cello - why? What for, as in purpose? Schindler's list can work brilliantly on a cello, oboe, clarinet or even disco synthesiser, when played with care, sensitivity and passion.

Perhaps I am not explaining well enough. If you search the net for MIDI files, most computers will attempt too play them. The Morricone stuff is there, produced by wonderful musicians AND musical incompetents. I just turned the TV on and Karate Kid is on - the music was pan flute and strings, with sea shore effects - so almost anything can fit if a musician is involved. My favourite score has to be Blade Runner. Hardly a real instrument to be heard. A great Director, but I bet he never asked Vangellis to stick a bass flute in that!

Film the movie then compose the music to support the mood and action of the scenes. What could be simpler?

Two words: Bass Flute! For Ryan Out Loudddddddd! I mean we can talk about the manner he is supplying the copy paste suggestions to his composer...

You didn't say that earlier, you said you picked the instrument, not him. You also repeatedly talked just about the instrument and only in the latest Clint Eastwood clips did you mention anything about playing styles. Like when you said you wanted a cello - why? What for, as in purpose? Schindler's list can work brilliantly on a cello, oboe, clarinet or even disco synthesiser, when played with care, sensitivity and passion.

Perhaps I am not explaining well enough. If you search the net for MIDI files, most computers will attempt too play them. The Morricone stuff is there, produced by wonderful musicians AND musical incompetents. I just turned the TV on and Karate Kid is on - the music was pan flute and strings, with sea shore effects - so almost anything can fit if a musician is involved. My favourite score has to be Blade Runner. Hardly a real instrument to be heard. A great Director, but I bet he never asked Vangellis to stick a bass flute in that!

Oh well what I mean is, I will ask the composer what instrument this is in the sample, he will tell me, and then I will tell him that is what I want, if he thinks that's good. So I will allow him to suggest something possibly better too that I might like.

For the cello, I just thought it would be good for the types of music I want, and in the examples, I gave the composer there is a cello in them, so I thought a cello would work played in a similar context. There will be other instruments too of course, but I mentioned cello before as an example as one of the in the context that I would like.

Film the movie then compose the music to support the mood and action of the scenes. What could be simpler?

Two words: Bass Flute! For Ryan Out Loudddddddd! I mean we can talk about the manner he is supplying the copy paste suggestions to his composer...

The bass flute has been brought up a lot on here, so is just a really bad instrument to pick most of the time, or what is the problem with it? Some of the example tracks I gave the composer as to what I am looking for have a bass flute in them. So the composer can make it his own of course, but thought I would still give him the tracks and say I want sounds like that, for him to take it and make it his own. Unless that's bad, or the bass flute sounds I want are bad?

There is NOTHING wrong with a bass flute if it fits. https://youtu.be/mKa9QOst14Y
It's a bit unusual, that's all, and might work fine - if it fits the action. There are however, loads of other intruments so why pick this one seemingly at random.

Oh well I wanted a flute sound that sounds like this and played in this type of tone, context and feeling, at 0:38 into this example:


The Replacement Killers soundtrack part 3 - YouTube

I was told that that flute is a bass native American flute. But I couldn't find sample tracks of that particular flute so far. But it seemed to me that the bass flute is the closest flute to sounding like that, that I could find. And the composer already has samplesof it. So I thought that might be a good choice for that type of flute sound and feeling, played in a similar context. But I would want the composer to make it his own of course too, and not copy exactly of course.