My preference is this version
https://youtu.be/pICA--V9stE

Oh okay. Well as far as the composer is, at making things blend together, is it a difficult task to try to ask them to blend serious music in some tracks, with over the top dark comedy music in other tracks, as long as the context calls for that kind of shift?

I could give him temp tracks of each, and they do sound different, but I would just ask make something similar to both, but at the same time, make it feel like they are from the same movie, if that helps.

It's the musical equivalent of having your granny write one the scenes in the script - you may well have the same characters and sets, but it doesn't blend.

Think about the entire music content of your movie as a classical work. They have a number of sections. You might have Vivace, then Allegretto, then Presto, followed by Allegro - all different tempos and content, BUT, all part of the same symphony.

If you have a piece simply slotted in because you want it, it's a musical mistake. Your composer will be choosing keys that fit together properly and genre typical differences. The slow scene, the romantic scene, the angry scene, the chase scene etc - I cannot imagine a 50s cartoon scene working with some of those other angry or lyrical scenes. They're musical opposites and I would have no idea how to flow cartoon comedy into rhythmic cinematic. It's going to be difficult enough with your bass flute and harmonica.

You have a movie with murders, violence, nudity and comedy? Seriously?

They MUST all have some elements in common - instrumentation, style, key, tempo. You are taking this too far again. You are intending micro managing the composer. It won't work. That I am sure of. Do you know any movies where the music selection is this random in nature. I'm thinking about the soundtrack albums available for most big movies. How many have these total changes in style apart from Jukebox movies.

If you went to see ZZ Top, how would the audience react if they played a slow gentle waltz in the middle or did a disco number? Metal Bands can do the occasional slow song, as long as it's a slow METAL song, and not Dolly Parton. She'd struggle if she had to sing the Ace of Spades?

It's the musical equivalent of having your granny write one the scenes in the script - you may well have the same characters and sets, but it doesn't blend.

Think about the entire music content of your movie as a classical work. They have a number of sections. You might have Vivace, then Allegretto, then Presto, followed by Allegro - all different tempos and content, BUT, all part of the same symphony.

If you have a piece simply slotted in because you want it, it's a musical mistake. Your composer will be choosing keys that fit together properly and genre typical differences. The slow scene, the romantic scene, the angry scene, the chase scene etc - I cannot imagine a 50s cartoon scene working with some of those other angry or lyrical scenes. They're musical opposites and I would have no idea how to flow cartoon comedy into rhythmic cinematic. It's going to be difficult enough with your bass flute and harmonica.

You have a movie with murders, violence, nudity and comedy? Seriously?

They MUST all have some elements in common - instrumentation, style, key, tempo. You are taking this too far again. You are intending micro managing the composer. It won't work. That I am sure of. Do you know any movies where the music selection is this random in nature. I'm thinking about the soundtrack albums available for most big movies. How many have these total changes in style apart from Jukebox movies.

If you went to see ZZ Top, how would the audience react if they played a slow gentle waltz in the middle or did a disco number? Metal Bands can do the occasional slow song, as long as it's a slow METAL song, and not Dolly Parton. She'd struggle if she had to sing the Ace of Spades?

There is no nudity. I was told to put nudity in but I don't have any so far. I can try to think of movies that are serious but have dark comedy music in them as well. But let's say I want dark comedy music... where do you find tracks that would fit dark comedy, unless you go for music that is somewhat cartoony?

And why would it be difficult for a composer to work in a bass flute and harmonica? Other movie scores have had those, so I don't see why it's so difficult.

One movie that came to mind just now is Dick Tracy (1990). The music is mostly serious and exciting, but they do have moments of comedic music here and there, when they want to be more comedic. Another movie that also comes to mind is 15 Minutes (2001), which had dark comedy music in certain moments, and then serious music in the more serious moments. I guess Sin City (2005), might count as well?

The music with those instruments may have musicians playing them and how the musicians perform them is important, as is the genre of music they're playing.

Larry Adler - Genevieve Waltz, from the Film ''Genevieve'' (Mouth Organ) (Mundharmonika) (MFP) - YouTube

Blues harmonica solo - YouTube

For a modern urban film, the type music you'd play will be different to that of an Italian western (or Once Upon A Time in America), which tends to be "operatic" in nature.

Since your film appears to be a police procedural, which different genre to the examples you've given

Dick Tracy is about a comic strip character, so having comedic sections can be appropriate, since he's not a dark character like Batman. Both used Danny Elfman at the time.

I think this whole instrumentation thing is being done too early in the process. You have to let a film breathe allowing it to have a life if its own, everything is getting too locked in for a film that, in the end, may work out differently to the way you imagine it.

Especially, since you seem worrying about allowing it to become a rape and revenge film..

One feature that the above mentioned films have is a sense of style, which your film doesn't currently seem to have. That's something that you personally have to put in and it won't come from listening on other people's opinions, either you have style sense or you don't.

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But what about movies that are not based off comic books that are serious but still have comedic sounding music during the more dark comedy moments, such as 15 Minutes (2001), or To Die For (1995)?

But even if the music I am into is operatic, don't other movies that take place in modern times, have operatic music? Doesn't a modern police procedural, such as The Silence of the Lambs or the prequel Red Dragon, even more so for example, have more operatic music?

It doesn't matter what type it is as long as it works. The real and 'proper' Batman from the 60s (the only good one to my way of thinking) had big band instrumentation and it worked well with the light hearted TV show. The same characters in the movies when it went dark also do a great job. You can introduce opera if it is appropriate. This is what you have trouble with. You ask and ask and ask and get contrary input, that you take as meaning something is wrong. Perhaps it is, but sometimes you get bad advice. At some point you need to be able to decide for yourself. You seem to itemise other movies and if they were a success you determine the choice of music was correct, so when your path crosses, you determine that X is correct, because it worked on Y.

Music really is bolted onto the visuals. It's rare to come first. It's both a creative and reactive art. Who can tell if the certain sound you want for some reason will fit your edit? We certainly can't. To be honest, nor can you?

As Paul says, you have to use music that's appropriate for your film.

What works in another film may not work in your film. it may even be counterproductive.

You personally have to know the emotions that's being created in your film and how the music will assist in conveying these. Endlessly referring to other films seems to suggest that you can't make creative decisions unless someone has done it before in a movie.

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I think the music will go with the context of the movie. The temp tracks I picked sound wildly different from each other, but they were the closest things I could find to what I want. So I thought the composer could take ideas from those, and do similar tracks, but make them sound closer to one another, or so I thought.

This is why I thought we should pick a certain number of instruments with him to stick to, because I thought that if you stick to those instruments, the tracks will not sound so wildly different, if you want to change moods for certain scenes. Or so I thought.

You really do put the cart before the horse, you haven't even seen your rushes or cut the film yet. The whole mood may change with the images and the performances

The music is the least of your worries and is possibly a distraction from the real decisions that need to be made.

Yeah that's true. I just want to do what I can during covid, since I cannot shoot anything at the moment, plus it being winter time as well, which makes some scenes difficult to shoot. So I just want to get things done in the mean time. Plus I thought if I played music during some of the dialogue-less scenes, it would help actors to perform a certain way later on, during the shooting.

All I can say Ryan is that you should search out a website called clients from hell. Have a good read through and you'll see that you are, or are working towards being one of those clients.

You are choosing entire tracks, when it's the components that matter. You really cannot join two different style tracks together. It has never worked like that, but you're not a musician, so you will have to take our word for it. However, if (as you usually do) want rules, then study Disney movies. They have much wider extremes - they go from comedy to dire straits, from animals and people dying to them being born. Maybe look at the lion king, because primarily the well known music is songs, with song structure. They're also simpler. Look at all the music in Lion King, and you will see the commonality, the sequence, the style and the mechanics of blending moods. You simply cannot join things randomly together. Please believe us, it doesn't work. If your composer is really good, he could do the mechanics so the keys match, the tempos blend and the instrumentation doesn't clash - BUT - it will sound horrible. Like those old crash edits we used to do with video. Ideally - trust the composer.
Scene one, 2:38. Slow, romantic, but ends with a shock.
Scene two. 3:20 From the shock start, tension builds as the characters search the area for the murderer. They find him at 3:57 when the tension releases and the captured murderer is put into the police van and we see his awareness of what is to follow.

Most composers could follow that and come up with something appropriate. If you decide that you MUST have the harmonica when he is caught inside the van - this if planned and prepared for won't be a problem.

WHAT WILL BE A PROBLEM IS MIMICRY - Expecting him to re-arrange an existing track is deadly dull to do, artistically uninspiring, and 0 satisfaction in a job well done.

Once you get the script sorted and the video shot, and have done a satisfactory initial edit, you burn in the timecode and hand it to the composer. You then wait weeks perhaps while he builds all the cues from scratch. You then annoy him by requesting changes because you just remembered the similar scene from an ancient Steve McQueen movie. He fixes this, but you then feel the next scene is not right and make him change that and so on. Then he say "stuff it" and walks. Musicians are temperamental types and all the musical directors and composers I know hate interference from Directors when they know what they have is good, and the Director believes a bass flute will fix it.

I see what you mean. The temp tracks I provided on here, are not close at all, and I realize that. But they are the CLOSEST I could find to what I have in mind. Of course they do not match, and the composer would have to come up with ones that go together more. I just provided them as examples, because they were the closest I could come across.

I don't have to give the composer any temp tracks at all if that's better. I just thought I would have trouble describing what I want, if I do it in my own words, and thought that that temp tracks could give a better idea than I could.

One of the short films I did before, the music didn't turn out much like how I wanted it it to at all, just based off my explanations, so I thought that temp tracks examples, would help.

What you are talking about isn't a temp track as used in the industry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temp_track

never seen that link Brian, sums it up pretty well.

I started another today as it happens and the steer I got was sci-fi drones, and the time. That's it. The video is an animation of some kind of space ship or possibly underwater. It's a low res computer animation and has a title at the start that indicates it's an early render without the submarine/spaceship (it says vessel to be added later) and I just have a cube moving through 'things'. I've assumed space. I'm just being careful that if it turns out to be water, I can tweak to make that work too.

Oh okay, should I call them example tracks then or should I use a different term?

It's more a music industry term, but demo might be closer in this case, since it's more a demonstration of the instruments than a temp track.

Oh thanks. Well I can either give the composer demo tracks, unless the tracks are too different for him to get what I am going for, in which I can just describe what I want, and with a list of instruments to make it all sound of the same and blend, if that's better?

Ryan, you just don’t understand. Your not a musician so what you call them doesn’t matter. Using the right terminology doesn’t matter if the subject is wrong, and giving him tracks you call temp tracks, that aren’t doesn’t matter if the musical intention works. We work in skill area compartments. None of the departs on their own area expect others to really understand what they do, but we all need to do translation. Have you considered for a moment that your composer might have better ideas than you, and like me, might really wonder about your ‘guidance’. You cannot give him a list of instruments to make it sound the same, that’s like forcing an an artist to use somebody else’s colour pallette.

You are trying to be involved more than your role normally allows. He needs a gentle steer, but you want control of the rudder and the map.

Remember that if you insist on providing tracks that has to work to, they need to already blend and match. You need to find examples of how your comedy music blends with murder music. It’s so odd a mix, he’ll struggle. So if you can’t find suitable examples, that’s because it doesn’t work, as you seem able to find the strangest examples so far.

Best advice. Forget about the music till you can give him something real. In the script topic, we haven’t got a clue about your movie because you explain it so badly. So how can you write music for something so vague and ever changing?

Oh okay. I can give him a gentle stear without examples, if that's best. He probably has better ideas than me. He just asks me what I want so I am want let him know what I was thinking for the music in the best way. But he'll probably come up with better ideas, and that's great.

Just wait until you're editing the film before getting deeply involved in the music, Things can change before then.

Oh okay, but I thought that this would also help get more people on board, and investors too, if I had everything planned out, down to the music as well.

Investors aren't interested in the music, they want to know who's acting in the film, not the composer.

Getting a cast is more important, not the music.

Sure, I can do that, and not concentrate on the music much for now. But the composer told me he would prefer demo tracks actually, to get a better idea of what I want, unless the ones I could think of before, are too different from each other

I have a question about the choice of synthesizer as well. For some of the soundtrack I figure a synthesizer will be cheaper to save on budget, but also because there are some synth sounds I want.

But the composer wants to use samples of real instruments for everything though, and he thinks that synthesizers are thing of the past, when no one could get samples. Does he have a point, and they are dated?

80s Synth Riffs - YouTube

Oh okay thanks. I don't necessarily want the synth sounds to sound 80s, but maybe more modern instead. But maybe since there are samples of every instrument now, maybe the synth is pointless for a lot of type of sounds now?

Oh I also decided not to go with the harmonica based on the advice posted here before. Thanks.

I wouldn't say any instrument goes out of date, it's how you use them that matters. Certainly there were a lot of synth bands during the 1980s and some films such as "Blade Runner" and "Midnight Express" used electronic music at that time.

However, films continue to use electronic music.

https://plus.pointblankmusicschool.com/top-10-electronic-film-scores/

https://www.factmag.com/2017/10/20/hans-zimmer-wallfisch-blade-runner-2049-interview/

It's really comes down to how appropriate electronic music or any instrumentation is for your film,

I get so exasperated, in my band the keyboard player uses a Kong M1. It’s old and has a few great sounds but also has lots of awful ones. He has a working spare and one for parts. He is computer phobic. I on the other hand have a big pile of old keyboards and ALL are now in my computer system. I used to have a big patch pay where I could connect the synths and samplers. My new studio does not need a patch bay as everything I want is in the machine! Ryan. You are now dictating which synths your music ‘expert’ uses? Would you go into hospital for a procedure and tell the surgeon the make and model of his equipment. You can point him to the type of stitches you’d like, or tell him you don’t mind a big scar, and make sure he knows it is your right arm that has to come off, but you don’t tell him how to choose his tool!

Sometimes Ryan your micromanagement gets way out of control. Do you really want potential collaborators to have this impression of you? PS you never choose a musical instrument on cost, only on sound. The only hardware synth in my studio is a Kong Triton because there are two sounds in it I like and I have not got these available in software. Roland and Kong have excellent software and if you don’t need the knobs and keys there is no reason to find a synth.

It is like buying a 90s three machine edit suite because you want to mix in an edit recorded on digibeta, but have one working playback machine for the archive footage. You’d digitise the material and edit in you computer. It does it quicker and better. Same with old synths. Manually turn that knob at 1:32 every time or use software and let the DAW turn the knob for you?

Leave musical choices to musicians for goodness sake.

Oh okay. Yes the synthesizer I am talking about is all on a computer, there are no manual knobs I don't think, the way he has it set up. It's all knobs on a computer.

There is synthesis and there is sampling - then each can be treated to make the real different and the unreal different too - it makes NO difference. Clearly, you pick a sound. I mentioned before, on my cubase system with the Kontakt installation, I select something like flute as a main heading and up come hundreds of flute sounds - some will be orchestral flute sounds and be indistinguishable from something I could put a microphone on, or they might be whispy, layered, evolving synthesised flute sounds? Who cares - you go through 200 flute sounds and pick the most appropriate one - why does it matter how it was constructed? My most realistic piano sound is synthesised and sounds more real than the sampled ones I also have. Your composer has real instruments in mind when it sounds like you have artificial sounds in mind. Music seems something you can't do yourself, or even communicate properly - so satisfy yourself with giving your composer a steer, then letting him get on with it, and you say yes or no.

Oh okay. Sure I can do that. Actually when it comes to flutes, since I wanted a flute like this at 1:15 into this example:

Scorpio Takes the Bait - YouTube

The flute has a lot overblowing I guess you could call it. But is it possible to fake overblowing with a synthesizer, and no real samples of any? My composer is not sure so far, as he hasn't tried it with a synthesizer but is possible?

I have about 30 of those before editing them. Some are synthesised some are samples, but I still think you and your composer simply do not have any experience of 'playing' these things.

If you have, for example, a sample library for PLAYING, not SOUND EFFECTS, then you get the option in some packages of controlling the sound from just about sounding - through flutters and stutters, to a continuous note, then that note can be a round robin - as in it plays as long as you hold the Bb or whatever key down. Or it will be a single recorded sample that gets pitch shifted or time shifted, or it will be all these things, presented in a playable manner. Some packages just require you to play with different velocities, others require you to also control expression, modulation and volume - AND - play at the same time, or do it in layers. You keep talking like a sample of a gun going off bang. This NOT what musical sampling is. You do not need to know how to record them, you need to learn how to play them.

Your breathy flute should give your composer 30 seconds worth of thinking, then probably half an hour of trying and auditioning sounds. This is how it is done. As I'm saying till I am blue in the face, it does not matter whatsoever if the generation of the sound is synthesised or sampled - totally irrelevant. You pick the sound by auditioning to get a short list, then you add the effects and treatment. Even more possible with that sound is to borrow a damn flute and record it. No music skill required - it's monophonic, so a bad musician could generate a great sound by total luck. You are making a huge mountain where the ground is flat.

Frankly, your composer sounds like he is totally at sea too. The prospects are not good if this is causing such grief at the planning stage. If the pair of you really are so green in the music technology stakes, send me the damn track when he's recorded without the flute and I will play it for you, free of charge - just give me a credit for flute - Paul Johnson, I've never had a credit for flute before!

Honestly Ryan, this is so, so simple - it really is. It's an overblow chatter with reverb. The kind of thing beginner flautists do accidentally, when trying to play very quietly.

Oh okay, well I can just try to get a bass flute or similar sounding flute from somewhere and do that. But would it match the rest of the flute we use then that is suppose to be played well, or will it sound like it is coming from two completely different sources in the sound then? Will it be able to blend with the good flute playing in the samples?

Since you're so fond of those movies you should forget the synth and flute. What you need is an organ and a good BANJO!

Sabata vs Banjo - YouTube

Ryan you're ridiculous but that's why we love you.

Oh okay, thanks.

Well the banjo is actually my least favorite instrument ever probably and cannot see myself using it. The organ maybe, but not sure if it is the best for this particular project. But maybe.

You bring too many limitations.

Deliverance • Dueling Banjos • Arthur Smith - YouTube

Oh really? Was the list of instruments I posted before, not enough and we should have more?

I was going to post Deliverance but I didn't think he'd get it.

No Ryan the point is any instrument will work if it fits. You seem to assign an intrinsic value to a particular instrument depending if it was used in a scene of a movie you want to copy.

The banjo was a joke but even that instrument was used in a classic like Deliverance and probably was used in many other movies that don't come to mind. You're so limited in your ideas.

You hire a composer and then you micro manage and try to take over like you know better than someone who specializes in that field despite that you have no background in it. Just like the gun shot we told you not do it yourself but you thought for some reason you could do better.

Oh okay, but shoudn't the producer and director have some say over the music that is being done, and the sounds that are being used in it?

Ryan, I really dont know how to explain this more simply. Forget the bass flute, just find a flute sound from the sounds any good music technologist has, and play a low note. That fluttery, windy sound you want is a construct, it’s treated to sound like that, in real life a flautist playing that would need assistance from effects. Seriously, if you want that sound it’s in countless collections, synths, samplers and even in my guitar synth! It’s a cliche sound, and so, so easy to find - I cannot understand why it’s causing you any problems finding it., but you are STILL thinking about a single sample, and we do not do single samples any more. We have moved on to sets of sounds. For goodness sake watch some of the spitfire videos I suggested, then you will understand how it works. At the moment, you are not thinking like a musician, but are thinking about sound effects. They are not the same thing remotely. If you want that Clint Eastwood flute sound, easy to do.

If this is causing you, and more importantly, your composer, problems, something is wrong, because he should be laughing this off because if the simplest of things is beyond him, you have far worse problems to come.

Ryan, I really dont know how to explain this more simply. Forget the bass flute, just find a flute sound from the sounds any good music technologist has, and play a low note. That fluttery, windy sound you want is a construct, it’s treated to sound like that, in real life a flautist playing that would need assistance from effects. Seriously, if you want that sound it’s in countless collections, synths, samplers and even in my guitar synth! It’s a cliche sound, and so, so easy to find - I cannot understand why it’s causing you any problems finding it., but you are STILL thinking about a single sample, and we do not do single samples any more. We have moved on to sets of sounds. For goodness sake watch some of the spitfire videos I suggested, then you will understand how it works. At the moment, you are not thinking like a musician, but are thinking about sound effects. They are not the same thing remotely. If you want that Clint Eastwood flute sound, easy to do.

If this is causing you, and more importantly, your composer, problems, something is wrong, because he should be laughing this off because if the simplest of things is beyond him, you have far worse problems to come.
I haven't been following this thread closely but I wouldn't be surprised he doesn't want to spend the money on sound library or whatever is needed. Couple that with how all his ideas come from copying other movies. Same thing happened when he was trying to copy a scene which we determined used a dolly but then he didn't have the money or skill and wanted to do it with a hand held gimbal. Everything he does is for the wrong reason and involves re creating elements he saw in another movie. Last time it was a gun shot sound effect, this time it's a flute.

Oh okay, but shoudn't the producer and director have some say over the music that is being done, and the sounds that are being used in it?

Yes, but they need to to know what they're doing and also be aware they they could be wrong. John Barry had arguments with Harry Saltzman regarding a couple of the best known Bond songs.

I think he's also working on the music for a movie he hasn't filmed yet. He should describe the movie and mood of the particular scene to the composer and then let him do his thing.

Ridiculous, ridiculous, ridiculous!

Oh yeah it doesn't have to be a bass flute specifically, but I wanted a flute that is not very high sounding, so that is why I thought a bass flute might best. But if there is a better flute out there for the sounds than sure.

Also I am totally willing spend the money on a sound library or music library. That is why I made a list of intstruments I thought would be good, so I could budget what to spend on, if the composer does not have them in his repertoire.

What about The Rockford Files series, where the lead instrument alternates between synth and harmonica? You get the best of both worlds. Although I think a bit of didgeridoo would add something priceless.

Oh okay. Well I don't know if I am digging the Didgeridoo so far. It's okay. But I think I might not to use the harmonica though. The part where I was thinking a harmonica might be good, I might switch to a cello now.

All this is still putting the cart before the horse, you may find that all your thoughts about numerous instruments fall by the wayside when the film itself is finally edited. They do have a habit of taking on a life of their own and what they demand musically may turn out very different.to your copy and paste instrumentation.

Ryan, why does your composer not have these things? Sounds to me like he is either a pianist who composes piano music, rather than somebody who already composes movie music. The notion you are buying him his instruments is laughable. Can you imagine booking Hans Zimmer or Vangelis and discovering they want YOU to buy them their instruments. Totally ludicrous.

Even the most basic version of Cubase comes with all the sounds you’ve mentioned.

Can you imagine saying to a chef “ I want celery now, I’ve gone off rhubarb, but I might want to add some marmite?” They would walk out of the door they are just so different ingredients they would struggle to create a recipe that could be swung that far.

Well actually I think he has all the instruments so far. I was just saying I could buy one if it turns out to be something he doesn't have. But I think he has them all so far accept for the bass saxophone I believe.

And we are just doing it now, mainly because of covid, and shooting is delayed. I thought it would help me shoot the scenes even better possibly, if I have a good idea of what the music is going to be. But maybe we are just doing it because we do not have a lot else to do while waiting...