You can. but you seem to be working with your own limitations, rather than allowing the composer to come up with more than you can imagine, That's the job of the director to guide, then let your creative people off to see what they come up with.

The composer should be able to find samples or get a musician to play customised samples.

Oh sure the composer could come up with more than I can imagine that would be great! I was just wanting to point him in a direction I was going for, so he doesn't do something that is different than what I was looking for. But if he exceeds what I imagined, that's great.

You're over cooking this, the composer can hear what's required from your temp tracks. Telling them what's in just one of your messages here should do the job.

Of course, given all this may be a year or more in the future, it's best not to get too locked in, ideas can change.

Oh okay I thought that temp tracks would convey what I want better than I could explain it.

They will, but all you need to convey that you feel that such and such sounds good,

BTW There is music other than film music around.

Oh okay, what do you mean there is music other than film music around? Are you saying I shouldn't use temp tracks from movies always?

So many movies use music from other sources.

You clearly still do not understand sampling. If the RESULT doesn’t sound real, that’s because the sample was bad, or more likely inappropriate . I just counted how many string samples are in just one of the folders in just one of my individual sample packages over 3000! Each one is a slightly different single note.

You seem to still be thinking effects. This is not a musical sample, which is what you need.

Why do you seem to make illogical assumptions on what you're being told?

No, just that there's other music around, some of which is the inspiration for film music composers. Penderecki is one such, a classical composer, his music has been used in soundtracks.

In a way, music for visual thinks has been composed for hundreds of years. Fireworks, for example - just like today. Clients brief - we're having a huge firework display, make the people cheer up and feel a bit better, so can you write some music that goes well with the display?

Or maybe somebody wanted to tell the story of a fairytale voyage across calm seas, but then have a storm and terrible calamities? Or maybe a bloody battle, but a proud one - or stories about fairy or swans dying?

It's the same thing - Composer thinks - hmmm let's have a big explosion, how can I do that?

Personally I absolutely hate the idea of a composer being presented with somebodies favourite music as a suggestion. I avoid musical cliches whenever I can.

Ryan - tell me what you learned from watching Guy Michelmore compose? Did you understand how it evolved - and most importantly did you spot any musical cliches?

You also need to sometimes experiment and use sounds out of context. I remember back in the 70s and 80s people who took classical tracks and used synths instead - it was popular for a short time then died out, so that's what I've been trying - I'm not sure if it works, to be honest. Is it more sci-fi or perhaps underwater? I can't decide if I like it or not - it's certainly not movie cliche, but I'm not sure it holds up. The original is destroyed in a way by the treatment and the mangling of bits of it - but I figured the constant arpeggios the piano plays were sort of robotic - so here's my question,

A good direction to expand on, or forget totally and move on.
https://youtu.be/uBF4bJo-d1c?list=OLAK5uy_lw6-etd1TpNEGrJZz6maZsHtO2QZ60JcA

So many movies use music from other sources.

You clearly still do not understand sampling. If the RESULT doesn’t sound real, that’s because the sample was bad, or more likely inappropriate . I just counted how many string samples are in just one of the folders in just one of my individual sample packages over 3000! Each one is a slightly different single note.

You seem to still be thinking effects. This is not a musical sample, which is what you need.

But effects will not work for everything though, and I still need musical samples for a lot of the music, won't I?

Why do you seem to make illogical assumptions on what you're being told?

No, just that there's other music around, some of which is the inspiration for film music composers. Penderecki is one such, a classical composer, his music has been used in soundtracks.

Oh well I am not sure if I want to use a classical composer on the soundtrack. It depends the music of course. But I would still have to get the composer to re-compose it though, in order for it to not be copywritten, right?

In a way, music for visual thinks has been composed for hundreds of years. Fireworks, for example - just like today. Clients brief - we're having a huge firework display, make the people cheer up and feel a bit better, so can you write some music that goes well with the display?

Or maybe somebody wanted to tell the story of a fairytale voyage across calm seas, but then have a storm and terrible calamities? Or maybe a bloody battle, but a proud one - or stories about fairy or swans dying?

It's the same thing - Composer thinks - hmmm let's have a big explosion, how can I do that?

Personally I absolutely hate the idea of a composer being presented with somebodies favourite music as a suggestion. I avoid musical cliches whenever I can.

Ryan - tell me what you learned from watching Guy Michelmore compose? Did you understand how it evolved - and most importantly did you spot any musical cliches?

You also need to sometimes experiment and use sounds out of context. I remember back in the 70s and 80s people who took classical tracks and used synths instead - it was popular for a short time then died out, so that's what I've been trying - I'm not sure if it works, to be honest. Is it more sci-fi or perhaps underwater? I can't decide if I like it or not - it's certainly not movie cliche, but I'm not sure it holds up. The original is destroyed in a way by the treatment and the mangling of bits of it - but I figured the constant arpeggios the piano plays were sort of robotic - so here's my question,

A good direction to expand on, or forget totally and move on.
https://youtu.be/uBF4bJo-d1c?list=OLAK5uy_lw6-etd1TpNEGrJZz6maZsHtO2QZ60JcA

Okay thanks, I watch Guy Michelmore... I listened to your music example there. What am I looking for specifically? When it comes to Guy Michelmores videos, does he do any on cliches specifically? I am starting off his videos now... I didn't think I was telling my composer to do a cliche though, but rather just point him in the direction I wanted.

Some of the music you're using as temp tracks are written by such composers, film music being one of the areas that composers from a classical background work. Jerry Goldsmith has film pieces inspired by Penderecki.

Oh okay. Sure I am open to it, if I like the music, but I would be worried if it would come off as cliched, or unoriginal, if i use someone else's music, that's already out there.

there's a lot of music that an audience will be unaware of.

That's true. And I am open to using it, depending on what it is, and if it works. However, it was said before that I should get my compose to do something more original, rather than write something inspired by temp tracks. So if I ask the composer to recompose symphonies exactly, then wouldn't that be asking him to something even more unoriginal of him then?

Your temp track selection seemed to be very well known, so I'm not sure that argument hold up. The composer will come up with something that isn't precisely the same as the temp tracks. The main problem is usually the director and others failing for the temp tracks, rather than the composed tracks.

Oh okay, what do you mean the director fails for the temp tracks exactly?

But also, if I ask the composer to recompose a piece of music, wouldn't they rather just compose something of their own creation even if it's inspired by music I wanted to be inspired by? I thought the argument is, is that recomposing a piece of music exactly, is worse than being inspired by one, than doing something somewhat similar but different. If a person recognizes a piece of classical music, they will immediately recognize it as that and say something like "Hey that's Mozart!", etc. But you don't often hear people say "Hey that kind of sounds like it could have been inspired by The Replacement Killers", for example?

he meant “FALLING for the temp track”. It was a typo. in other words director falls in love with temp music theyve been listening to repeatedly for months edited into a certain scene and then when they hear the composed music they dont like it cause theyre used to the temp track

The trouble is you just don't understand music, Ryan. Music rarely inspires in a movie, that's not what it does, so using more well known music is risky, because then the music becomes a tune, or a song. It's perfectly possible to use a more well known song when the choice is right. Tubular Bells in the Exorcist, for example - and in the war movies we get Ride of the Valkyries or Barber's Adagio. 2001 gave us a Strauss Waltz and of course Also Sprach Zarathustra. The failures are songs that didn't really find a proper home.

The worst thing to do is choose a song or piece of music that you like. If you think a song fitted a movie really well, then it won't work for a different movie. If your composer writes the music, then you have to ask if you should remove the possibility of a really good piece of music, written by a competent person that fits the visuals in favour of a musically less competent persons advice that "I think it would sound great with a bass zither" I'd never dream of giving a choreographer a steer because I have zero talent in that areas. I'm incompetent to give advice.

There is scope for composition in the style of. In our industry it removes all the copyright trouble, but also enables a flavour of a style to be appreciated without the clever ones identifying it.

Here's another link to one I did - Eric Satie - I just copied his style and technique, and called it Gymnopedie No. 4 (his stopped at No.3) https://youtu.be/2YuhRskFj78

The trouble is that it can still backfire and people start to think about the music - this sounds familiar, what is it? They should be watching the movie.

You've also missed the differences in the music type - underscoring, or themes. From what I read about your movies, you could be talking both. Maybe a Miami Vice style punchy, pacy theme - but for lots of your movie, the underscore has no real melody - it's not a song, just texture. Your bass flute is texture. You also have harmony and dissonance to consider - one creates tension and one releases it.

I'll ask again - have you watched the Guy Michelmore videos yet on YouTube - you will learn a great deal fro them and also, watch the Spitfire audio demos of how they compose for Film and TV - watch how they do it. Stop taking advice from people who haven't got a clue, and follow your instinct, NOT other people's products. Stop looking through YouTube videos that support your fixed view. Be willing to trust others.

Last question Ryan - what DAW does your composer use.

Try this latest Guy Michelmore video
https://youtu.be/1fpxr0wCErU

Yes it's "fall".

Most people won't recognize Penderecki or the other classical composers you're likely to use on a thriller. Although, one of the funders on a short I made did recognize Penderecki, but she came from an arts background.

BTW She asked for a video of the film with the temp tracks, rather than the final composed music, so it's not just the director who falls for the temp music.

The trouble is you just don't understand music, Ryan. Music rarely inspires in a movie, that's not what it does, so using more well known music is risky, because then the music becomes a tune, or a song. It's perfectly possible to use a more well known song when the choice is right. Tubular Bells in the Exorcist, for example - and in the war movies we get Ride of the Valkyries or Barber's Adagio. 2001 gave us a Strauss Waltz and of course Also Sprach Zarathustra. The failures are songs that didn't really find a proper home.

The worst thing to do is choose a song or piece of music that you like. If you think a song fitted a movie really well, then it won't work for a different movie. If your composer writes the music, then you have to ask if you should remove the possibility of a really good piece of music, written by a competent person that fits the visuals in favour of a musically less competent persons advice that "I think it would sound great with a bass zither" I'd never dream of giving a choreographer a steer because I have zero talent in that areas. I'm incompetent to give advice.

There is scope for composition in the style of. In our industry it removes all the copyright trouble, but also enables a flavour of a style to be appreciated without the clever ones identifying it.

Here's another link to one I did - Eric Satie - I just copied his style and technique, and called it Gymnopedie No. 4 (his stopped at No.3) https://youtu.be/2YuhRskFj78

The trouble is that it can still backfire and people start to think about the music - this sounds familiar, what is it? They should be watching the movie.

You've also missed the differences in the music type - underscoring, or themes. From what I read about your movies, you could be talking both. Maybe a Miami Vice style punchy, pacy theme - but for lots of your movie, the underscore has no real melody - it's not a song, just texture. Your bass flute is texture. You also have harmony and dissonance to consider - one creates tension and one releases it.

I'll ask again - have you watched the Guy Michelmore videos yet on YouTube - you will learn a great deal fro them and also, watch the Spitfire audio demos of how they compose for Film and TV - watch how they do it. Stop taking advice from people who haven't got a clue, and follow your instinct, NOT other people's products. Stop looking through YouTube videos that support your fixed view. Be willing to trust others.

Last question Ryan - what DAW does your composer use.

Try this latest Guy Michelmore video
https://youtu.be/1fpxr0wCErU

Oh okay thanks. I haven been working lately so I haven't watched his videos yet since I just got the message about the videos from you this morning, in the earlier post but I will watch it. Thanks. Also, when you say that the flute is just texture, is that a bad thing of the flute is texture? I thought that was okay.

Also, I could just have the composer do it all without giving him any examples, of what I was thinking, but what if what he comes up with is too different than what I was envisioning? He could surprise and I would like it, but what if I did not, and it was too different for me? Wouldn't it save time to give him some examples, to give him an idea of what I was thinking?

Classical type music can work for some parts, but not for all scenes I don't think. I would have to listen and see what's out there more, since most classical I know of, may not be what I was envisioning.

And I don't want to have music in the movie I don't feel it fits the scene. I wouldn't pick music just because I like it only. in fact, I don't even like the harmonica or saxophone really, I just picked them because I thought they would fit the particular context of the movie.

How good do you think your judgement actually is, without prompting? A good thing we did with students was give them a movie but no soundtrack, and get them to do a music sketch of what they felt the music should be like. It was NEVER like the original. I'm not sure why you already have these ideas before you even shoot? Surely the first time music even gets considered is when you see the rushes for the first time and see what it looks like? I can't write music for something I have not seen. The pace, the feel, the circumstances and the timing would be guesswork, and some advance compositions would just be thrown away. Your ideas for low breathy sounds might work perfectly - but they might not, and you cannot tell till you see the images. I bet Morricone didn't write a note till he saw those big vistas and the empty frames with the space and the actors doing nothing. If those scenes had busy dialogue, then they would have been different. Music supports the edit.

The clip to Guy shows how strange rhythmic bangs and thuds, which seem so out of place with the footage, evolve into something huge - he didn't start with anything but a new sample package - so he used all sorts of sounds - and there's a very useful bit of chat about copyright. This is where he does a live stream of him working, complete with questions and rambling!

The trouble is you just don't understand music, Ryan. Music rarely inspires in a movie, that's not what it does, so using more well known music is risky, because then the music becomes a tune, or a song. It's perfectly possible to use a more well known song when the choice is right. Tubular Bells in the Exorcist, for example - and in the war movies we get Ride of the Valkyries or Barber's Adagio. 2001 gave us a Strauss Waltz and of course Also Sprach Zarathustra. The failures are songs that didn't really find a proper home.

The worst thing to do is choose a song or piece of music that you like. If you think a song fitted a movie really well, then it won't work for a different movie. If your composer writes the music, then you have to ask if you should remove the possibility of a really good piece of music, written by a competent person that fits the visuals in favour of a musically less competent persons advice that "I think it would sound great with a bass zither" I'd never dream of giving a choreographer a steer because I have zero talent in that areas. I'm incompetent to give advice.

There is scope for composition in the style of. In our industry it removes all the copyright trouble, but also enables a flavour of a style to be appreciated without the clever ones identifying it.

Here's another link to one I did - Eric Satie - I just copied his style and technique, and called it Gymnopedie No. 4 (his stopped at No.3) https://youtu.be/2YuhRskFj78

The trouble is that it can still backfire and people start to think about the music - this sounds familiar, what is it? They should be watching the movie.

You've also missed the differences in the music type - underscoring, or themes. From what I read about your movies, you could be talking both. Maybe a Miami Vice style punchy, pacy theme - but for lots of your movie, the underscore has no real melody - it's not a song, just texture. Your bass flute is texture. You also have harmony and dissonance to consider - one creates tension and one releases it.

I'll ask again - have you watched the Guy Michelmore videos yet on YouTube - you will learn a great deal fro them and also, watch the Spitfire audio demos of how they compose for Film and TV - watch how they do it. Stop taking advice from people who haven't got a clue, and follow your instinct, NOT other people's products. Stop looking through YouTube videos that support your fixed view. Be willing to trust others.

Last question Ryan - what DAW does your composer use.

Try this latest Guy Michelmore video
https://youtu.be/1fpxr0wCErU

How good do you think your judgement actually is, without prompting? A good thing we did with students was give them a movie but no soundtrack, and get them to do a music sketch of what they felt the music should be like. It was NEVER like the original. I'm not sure why you already have these ideas before you even shoot? Surely the first time music even gets considered is when you see the rushes for the first time and see what it looks like? I can't write music for something I have not seen. The pace, the feel, the circumstances and the timing would be guesswork, and some advance compositions would just be thrown away. Your ideas for low breathy sounds might work perfectly - but they might not, and you cannot tell till you see the images. I bet Morricone didn't write a note till he saw those big vistas and the empty frames with the space and the actors doing nothing. If those scenes had busy dialogue, then they would have been different. Music supports the edit.

The clip to Guy shows how strange rhythmic bangs and thuds, which seem so out of place with the footage, evolve into something huge - he didn't start with anything but a new sample package - so he used all sorts of sounds - and there's a very useful bit of chat about copyright. This is where he does a live stream of him working, complete with questions and rambling!

I think my judgment of what the music should be is pretty good. When you say without prompting, is prompting bad? It's just with covid now, I thought I would get some other things done for the project while I wait, and felt I could feel the scenes better even, with directing them, if I had rough drafts of what the music would be at this point as well.

You can have thoughts about the music, you can use music to help you visualize the film when writing the script, but don't get too close to it, otherwise you'll end up falling for the temp tracks.

What I mean Ryan is that sometimes your thought processes are very, very strange. I was looking at your past decisions and often you change your mind, or you are fixed and based on people's comments you move the goalposts. You get prompted frequently and so many things people tell you, you should have already considered. You then ask if it's bad? you do this questioning so often, it's predictable. You have the most odd way of working. You plan and plan and plan, and now your production phase has been put on hold, you've now gone into planning overdrive.

We try so hard to help, advise and guide and you totally ignore so much of it and come back with the usual "I've been told ...." by somebody with the opposite viewpoint that supports your viewpoint. It would be so easy to just say - yes Ryan, you're absolutely right, and let you wreck the few good ideas you have.

This topic started out with you not understanding how to make instruments sound natural - and you have refused and avoided explaining how you are creating your music. You talk about the samples being poor, but musically, I've tried to explain musicians do not work with single samples, but huge packages of sounds. You won't reveal any details of how the composer works, so how on earth can you guide him if you don't understand what he does?

You have wasted so much energy on one tiny aspect of the music. Chances are your composer will listen to it, and find something better.

I'm beginning to feel that there simply is no point trying to help you because you talk but never listen - why ask questions if all you really want is "great idea Ryan, go for it, you're 100% right - samples are terrible, but your orchestra you have booked will be fine."

What I mean Ryan is that sometimes your thought processes are very, very strange. I was looking at your past decisions and often you change your mind, or you are fixed and based on people's comments you move the goalposts. You get prompted frequently and so many things people tell you, you should have already considered. You then ask if it's bad? you do this questioning so often, it's predictable. You have the most odd way of working. You plan and plan and plan, and now your production phase has been put on hold, you've now gone into planning overdrive.

We try so hard to help, advise and guide and you totally ignore so much of it and come back with the usual "I've been told ...." by somebody with the opposite viewpoint that supports your viewpoint. It would be so easy to just say - yes Ryan, you're absolutely right, and let you wreck the few good ideas you have.

This topic started out with you not understanding how to make instruments sound natural - and you have refused and avoided explaining how you are creating your music. You talk about the samples being poor, but musically, I've tried to explain musicians do not work with single samples, but huge packages of sounds. You won't reveal any details of how the composer works, so how on earth can you guide him if you don't understand what he does?

You have wasted so much energy on one tiny aspect of the music. Chances are your composer will listen to it, and find something better.

I'm beginning to feel that there simply is no point trying to help you because you talk but never listen - why ask questions if all you really want is "great idea Ryan, go for it, you're 100% right - samples are terrible, but your orchestra you have booked will be fine."

Oh sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that I was not taking advice. I do take in and consider all the advice on here, and a lot of it has been very helpfull. I am really appreciating of it. Thank you. I'm apologize for giving the wrong impression.

I don't mean for my thought process to be strange.

And I know that musicians work with huge packages of sound, but what are you trying to say, when you say that? Are you saying that we haven't picked enough instrument samples? Or are you saying he should have more to pick from?

As for details on how the composer works... Well I don't have a DAW for music but he does. He asks me for what kind of music I am going for and if I have any examples, and what kind of tone overall I am going for so far. Is there anything else I can answer about the composer's way of working specifically, that I haven't thought of perhaps?

We are slowly getting there. You were asked for things you thought good, you provided them. That’s good. Now your job is to forget music for now.

Does guy in his videos even use the word samples? I don’t think he does when describing sounds. I’ve got things that just have descriptive names. Swarms, ethereal, world, etc etc. Does your composer need more? Yes. Always a growing collection because you always need more. The difficulty is in remembering where certain sound are!

Oh okay, why is the difficulty remembering where certain sound are?

Because writing down wonderful things you discover never works. When I want say, the sound of space, I go to absynth, ethereal world and a few others but there are thousands of sounds to audition. My best purchase was a kontakt S61 keyboard that has a built in browser and it stores a tiny bit of each sound you can listen to quickly. If you dial up program 445 it might take ten seconds to load in thousands of samples and the firs5 keyboard press says no, you you try 446 an d so on.the keyboard lets you pick an instrument group then a style then presents a list of every sound it thinks matches, and then you can quickly turn a knob and hear them one by one, and reject them so fast. If you search for flute, then evolving, then low, you might get one of the sounds you would like. Most of these sounds you will never even know you have. I’m now even starting my search at z and working back, because often I find a nice one beginning with b and never hear the others.

I’ve just bought a Ronin S, and searching for videos I came across a guy called Neil Fisher who makes really good videos and he lives in ............ Saskatoon!

Oh okay, Neil Fisher sounds really familiar, and I think I worked with him before on someone else's project. Thanks!

How do you remember where certain sounds are if writing them down doesn't work? When you say does the guy in the video even use word samples, what do you mean by 'word samples', in this case?

If you have maybe 4 thousand instruments to choose from, writing things down is impossible, hence why I love the auditioning system. I could write down the names but finding the right sample is all about auditioning. Some of the VSTi instruments I have have page after page of sounds - maybe 8 or 9 hundred in total. Most are also editable - so you spend far too long looking and listening. On the word samples question, what I meant is that he does not use the word 'samples' - we talk about sounds, so if he needs strings he goes to violas - but he probably has maybe 40 good viola sounds to choose from, so will have favourites. My favourites change frequently. I bought the Abbey Rd package recently - I think three hundred pounds, and it's full of orchestral and precision sounds recorded in the famous Abbey Rd studios, but I think I like the Albion package better for what I do. What I know for certain is that I probably have the sound somewhere, finding it is crazily difficult. Every day, it seems, new package appear, and some offer very tempting offers from a few pounds to hundreds and if one turns up just when you are struggling for a sound, your credit card takes a hit. Sometimes you can spend hundreds to get one sound if it's important.

Oh okay. Well in order to guide the composer in the right direction for sounds I want, would giving him temp track examples, help even more possibly then, because then maybe we can locate sounds similar to those of the instrument, in the temp tracks, rather than just tell him I like this instrument, etc?

That makes more sense than what you've been arguing about.

Just give the composer the temp tracks and let them get on with their job.

Oh okay, but I thought that's what I was doing, but it was said on here before to explain to the composer what I want, because that's better than giving temp tracks.

You've confused things, as per usual, by by thinking everything is a simple, single approach, There's no point in giving a list instruments and the composer not knowing how they're played and the other aspects required in a piece of music.

There is also a broad discussion with a composer regarding the music for a film.

Some composers don't like temp tracks, again you need to discuss that with the composer. With one such composer he watched the film once with the temp tracks, then I gave him a copy without any temp tracks.

A steer is always good, instructions are not. Your orchestra list, for example, is pointless. It’s like your store cupboard of supplies in the kitchen. John williams probably has a list like that, but are you going to get the canteen bar song from the first Star Wars or Schindler’s List?

It’s the artist’s pallette. When he is writing it, and needs a B from the flute it cannot play, you stick in an alto flute. Only if this can’t play it would you try to find a bass flute. When notes get low of course, you might even be able to ditch the bass flute with a digeredoo.

Oh yeah, I wasn't going to just give him a list of instruments and that would be it. The temp tracks have the instruments in, and how I want them to be played and sound of course more so.

The list of instruments was just in case he didn't have any from the temp tracks I gave him, in which case we would get them.

Danger Will Robinson - you're falling into the trap of prescription again. How you want them to be played and sound is a non-musical viewpoint again. The composer has the skills to make sounds blend, or not as they need - you don't.

Temp tracks set mood and maybe suggest feel - but they are not to mimic, copy or just re-arrange. They're about telling the composer this isn't a slow and smoochy scene but a punchy aggressive one. Maybe the sound makes you angry, sad, on edge - that kind of thing. You're not supposed to copy them literally.

For instance - why did you include come of those instruments? Do you need an electric guitar? If you were booking musicians to play them, if the composition didn't need them, that's a mistake. In the real world, if budgets are low, you create the music in a machine and there it stays. Sometimes you need real sounds, but sometimes when budgets allow, you get in musicians. A string patch saves perhaps 6 musicians - or maybe 30? So until you have the parts, how do you know how many real people you need. Frankly, to the smaller scale composer, real musicians are total pains in many cases. Sometimes, you just need them. Other times, you don't. Your composer is in control of this. If you want to help, you need to generate the funds he needs, or you MUST tell him he cannot have real players. Maybe your composer is at home with string quartets and wants to use his four friends - this may be perfect for the movie, but of course, you might struggle with budget. If you cannot afford four people, then he needs to know from the very start. Plenty for you to do setting the framework, organising the funding and gently suggesting style - then you go away and listen to the first version - then you agree on the number of revisions to stop you micromanaging and making the quality drop.

Danger Will Robinson - you're falling into the trap of prescription again. How you want them to be played and sound is a non-musical viewpoint again. The composer has the skills to make sounds blend, or not as they need - you don't.

Temp tracks set mood and maybe suggest feel - but they are not to mimic, copy or just re-arrange. They're about telling the composer this isn't a slow and smoochy scene but a punchy aggressive one. Maybe the sound makes you angry, sad, on edge - that kind of thing. You're not supposed to copy them literally.

For instance - why did you include come of those instruments? Do you need an electric guitar? If you were booking musicians to play them, if the composition didn't need them, that's a mistake. In the real world, if budgets are low, you create the music in a machine and there it stays. Sometimes you need real sounds, but sometimes when budgets allow, you get in musicians. A string patch saves perhaps 6 musicians - or maybe 30? So until you have the parts, how do you know how many real people you need. Frankly, to the smaller scale composer, real musicians are total pains in many cases. Sometimes, you just need them. Other times, you don't. Your composer is in control of this. If you want to help, you need to generate the funds he needs, or you MUST tell him he cannot have real players. Maybe your composer is at home with string quartets and wants to use his four friends - this may be perfect for the movie, but of course, you might struggle with budget. If you cannot afford four people, then he needs to know from the very start. Plenty for you to do setting the framework, organising the funding and gently suggesting style - then you go away and listen to the first version - then you agree on the number of revisions to stop you micromanaging and making the quality drop.

Oh yeah, I know I am not suppose to copy them literally, but I don't want them to be so different that they are not remotely what I am looking for either though, of course.

Yes I am not going to book musicians and most of the sound is going to created in a machine. I chose the electric guitar because I wanted an electric distorted sound for some of the music in certain scenes, and since the composer can play the guitar and has one, I thought the electric guitar would work for that. I also thought the electric guitar would have a more romantic feel, for some of the earlier scenes as well. But the other instruments will be created in a machine though.

As for why I included the other instruments it's hard to put into words but I thought they would create the feel and mood I wanted for the scenes I had in mind for different ones. For example the cello has a more sad and dramatic sound, at least to me, so I thought it would be good for one of the instruments in a more sad and dramatic scene.

Indeed it would - but the snag is getting from section to section in a cohesive way. Otherwise you end up with a mish-mash of clashing styles. You're still thinking like YOU are the composer. I can imagine some guitar sounds being romantic but others less so.

DO you have examples of the tracks you are thinking of using for his inspiration?

Indeed it would - but the snag is getting from section to section in a cohesive way. Otherwise you end up with a mish-mash of clashing styles. You're still thinking like YOU are the composer. I can imagine some guitar sounds being romantic but others less so.

DO you have examples of the tracks you are thinking of using for his inspiration?

Oh okay, thanks. I I don't want to be the composer of course, I just want to work with him correctly and communicate correctly with him. I'm still looking for one for the more romantic one, but so far, these two tracks are kind of what I was thinking:

Eric Clapton - Meet the Martin Riggs â™› - YouTube

But I am trying to find something a little different perhaps still.

For the more distorted electric guitar sound, I was thinking something more like this

TMNT 1990 Soundtrack Shredder's Suite - YouTube

Or maybe an electric cello would better for that more electric distorted sound but just guessing. But the composer does have an electric guitar though.

And there are these two temp tracks from before:

BEST OF ENNIO MORRICONE - MAN WITH A HARMONICA HQ - YouTube

The Replacement Killers soundtrack part 3 - YouTube

Here's some that were meant for dark comedy other another parts:

Sub-Main Title / Cussing Out the Joker / I Had a Bad Day (From The Episode "Joker's Favor") - YouTube

Amusement - YouTube

Sin City OST - Marv - YouTube

To Die For: Main Titles - Danny Elfman's Music - YouTube

Here are some others so far for more serious or exciting moments:

SPARTAN End Credits - YouTube

Pino Donaggio - Blow Out (1981): Burke Kills Sally - YouTube

Incomprehensible Captivity - YouTube

United 93 Soundtrack- The End - YouTube

Max Payne 2 - Main Theme - YouTube

07 - The Hotel - James Horner - Red Heat - YouTube

08 - Bus Station - James Horner - Red Heat - YouTube

Scorpio Takes the Bait - YouTube

György Ligeti ~ Musica Ricercata, II [Mesto, Rigido E Cerimoniale] - YouTube

(Robocop Soundtrack) Robo Drives To Jones - YouTube

Eric Clapton - yes, I get this one, style wise. I can imagine this working for certain love scenes, or just thoughtful scenes. Best bit is it has no real melody - so nobody will be humming it.
TMNT - yep again, I can get this one - the precision (I've got loads of amazing bangs in some of my library)
The Morricone one with harmonica and delayed/reverby twangy guitar - a bit cliche, but a style I guess. Always makes me think cowboys and Arizona deserts with rocks.
The replacement killers is a collection of effects, sub bass for angst and a bit cliche ridden, but works as a style to work with.
Batman - no. 1950s/60s cartoon classics and just needs Mel Blanc's voice. It's a period style that doesn't;t relate to contemporary use of music in movies.
No idea about the Amusement piece. Totally out for me as it sounds locked in the 50s and jocular so OK for an Ealing Comedy, or cartoon, but it conjures up everything your movie doesn't for me.
Sin City - works for me except whatever that low reed is - which I personally hate and it gets in the way.
Spartan - works for me as it's moody and rhythmic but isn't memorable - which I think makes it better.
Blowout has great incidental music and again, does the job.
Incomprehensible captivity - not, in my view one of his better pieces, but it sets the scene and makes people uncomfortable, so probably out of context, is a good choice.
United 93 - another non-descript rhythmic piece - again, does what it is supposed to without going anywhere.

Red Heat just shows Horner can write noise too. Probably needs the scene for me to contextualise. The hotel is tricky for me, but the chase feel to bus station is typical, but of course cliche based.

I have seen one of those movies - just one!

Eric Clapton - yes, I get this one, style wise. I can imagine this working for certain love scenes, or just thoughtful scenes. Best bit is it has no real melody - so nobody will be humming it.
TMNT - yep again, I can get this one - the precision (I've got loads of amazing bangs in some of my library)
The Morricone one with harmonica and delayed/reverby twangy guitar - a bit cliche, but a style I guess. Always makes me think cowboys and Arizona deserts with rocks.
The replacement killers is a collection of effects, sub bass for angst and a bit cliche ridden, but works as a style to work with.
Batman - no. 1950s/60s cartoon classics and just needs Mel Blanc's voice. It's a period style that doesn't;t relate to contemporary use of music in movies.
No idea about the Amusement piece. Totally out for me as it sounds locked in the 50s and jocular so OK for an Ealing Comedy, or cartoon, but it conjures up everything your movie doesn't for me.
Sin City - works for me except whatever that low reed is - which I personally hate and it gets in the way.
Spartan - works for me as it's moody and rhythmic but isn't memorable - which I think makes it better.
Blowout has great incidental music and again, does the job.
Incomprehensible captivity - not, in my view one of his better pieces, but it sets the scene and makes people uncomfortable, so probably out of context, is a good choice.
United 93 - another non-descript rhythmic piece - again, does what it is supposed to without going anywhere.

Red Heat just shows Horner can write noise too. Probably needs the scene for me to contextualise. The hotel is tricky for me, but the chase feel to bus station is typical, but of course cliche based.

I have seen one of those movies - just one!

Oh okay thanks. If no one will be humming that kind of guitar, is that bad?

I just want the harmonica from the Morricone track and not the twangy guitar. But I'll let the composer know that.

The Replacement Killers I wanted mainly for the low flute. I could do without sub bass unless I should have that as well.

The Batman music and the Amusement music were for a specific sequence where I wanted dark comedy music, and thought that that cartoony type music would add to it in a twisted way. But maybe something like this would be better instead?

Ennio Morricone - Investigation of a Citizen Above Suspicion - YouTube

To Die For: Main Titles - Danny Elfman's Music - YouTube

Because this is not as cartoony?

The King Kong one is one of the lesser ones for me as well, and we might not do something like that, as perhaps the United 93 and Blow Out tracks are enough for inspiration.

When you say the low reed in the Sin City track, do you mean the saxophone? That's what I thought was a bass sax, when I wrote bass sax on my list, but you said there is no such thing as a bass sax, right, so that might be a baritone then? Unless you mean a different reed?

I also posted some other temp tracks in the previous post, since.

We always take a step forward then go back two.

I deliberately said low reed because you cannot tell with certainty. A Bass saxophone certainly exists, but needs two people to carry it, and is a rare and terribly expensive beast and very limited in what it can do. It could have been a baritone sax, or maybe a bassoon - who can tell? I thought we'd explained all this?

There's so little point posting all these examples without the context being stated. If you give an entire track to the composer because you like the bass flute, you're giving the composer such a hard job. They are also going to be very difficult to imagine in the same movie. If you take the music for an entire film, there are always repeated motifs, and variations of some components, but so much similarity. You cannot have a light section from one movie and and heavy section from another - it doesn't work.

When you write a theme, you want people to hum it. When you write a cue that makes people get on edge, and know something nasty is coming, the last thing you want is them humming it. Everyone can hum the der-der, der-der-der-der from Jaws, but most people could not hum the bit that follows it.

The sub bass adds to the unease - you feel it, but don't really hear it - so it's presence is good when it does a job.

There is funny music and there is odd music. Your choices were children's cartoon cliches - in what the music does and the style of recording. I get the sense that your steer to the composer is based on a very unsound base. If you put all these styles together it's very genre unfriendly. You're not giving the composer things he can work with. It's like you are collecting your favourite flavours and want the chef to use them all - irrespective of their origin. It's a confusing mess of disparate ideas. Every time I think I have a handle on what you want, you surprise me with more and more confusion.

You have the same way of dealing with script - plus the confusion in story telling we see in everything - and I'm sad to say a constant misunderstanding of everything we say. You want the harmonica, but not the tangy guitar? Weird - they worked together really well? It points the way to a musical mess.

EDIT
The Dirty Harry thing only really works in the context of the period and the jazz of the time which the composer took advantage of. I think it's not suitable for modern audiences now. That piano thing I felt was awful - I hated it, but maybe in the context of the movie it worked? I have no idea. The other was OK, but of course genre specific. Incidental music, of the Robocop ilk - as to it's style in your movie? I don't know.


Every Week Eric Matyas puts up links to his music - why don't you go through his stuff. The City material sounds far move Police detective story than all these movie clips, and he only wants donations and credit.

We always take a step forward then go back two.

I deliberately said low reed because you cannot tell with certainty. A Bass saxophone certainly exists, but needs two people to carry it, and is a rare and terribly expensive beast and very limited in what it can do. It could have been a baritone sax, or maybe a bassoon - who can tell? I thought we'd explained all this?

There's so little point posting all these examples without the context being stated. If you give an entire track to the composer because you like the bass flute, you're giving the composer such a hard job. They are also going to be very difficult to imagine in the same movie. If you take the music for an entire film, there are always repeated motifs, and variations of some components, but so much similarity. You cannot have a light section from one movie and and heavy section from another - it doesn't work.

When you write a theme, you want people to hum it. When you write a cue that makes people get on edge, and know something nasty is coming, the last thing you want is them humming it. Everyone can hum the der-der, der-der-der-der from Jaws, but most people could not hum the bit that follows it.

The sub bass adds to the unease - you feel it, but don't really hear it - so it's presence is good when it does a job.

There is funny music and there is odd music. Your choices were children's cartoon cliches - in what the music does and the style of recording. I get the sense that your steer to the composer is based on a very unsound base. If you put all these styles together it's very genre unfriendly. You're not giving the composer things he can work with. It's like you are collecting your favourite flavours and want the chef to use them all - irrespective of their origin. It's a confusing mess of disparate ideas. Every time I think I have a handle on what you want, you surprise me with more and more confusion.

You have the same way of dealing with script - plus the confusion in story telling we see in everything - and I'm sad to say a constant misunderstanding of everything we say. You want the harmonica, but not the tangy guitar? Weird - they worked together really well? It points the way to a musical mess.

EDIT
The Dirty Harry thing only really works in the context of the period and the jazz of the time which the composer took advantage of. I think it's not suitable for modern audiences now. That piano thing I felt was awful - I hated it, but maybe in the context of the movie it worked? I have no idea. The other was OK, but of course genre specific. Incidental music, of the Robocop ilk - as to it's style in your movie? I don't know.


Every Week Eric Matyas puts up links to his music - why don't you go through his stuff. The City material sounds far move Police detective story than all these movie clips, and he only wants donations and credit.

Oh okay thanks, I will check out his stuff.

The instrument sounds a lot more like a bass sax to me compared to a bassoon, but if it's a bassoon, then it's a bassoon. We can try either and see how it sounds.

But when I give the temp track to the composer, I do tell him what parts of it I like and to go for something in that inspiration. Do I have to like every single thing about the track then?

And if you say I shouldn't take tracks from other movies, because they are too different, I can't just give the composers temp tracks from all one movie, because then it feels like then you got all your inspiration all from one movie soundtrack. Unless that's good?

But the composer does have the script, and knows the contexts, so couldn't I just ask him to repeat motifs and blend?

Usually a temp track works as whole, it's not usually a bit of works with the film because a section sounds good. More it works with the action and mood of the film and connects with it.

Oh okay. I cannot find exact temp tracks as to what I want. So is it better than I just describe the sounds I want? For example for the temp track for The Replacement Killers, is it best instead of showing him the track, I just say I want a low bass flute sound of some sort, played in a mysterious suspenseful way, along with other instruments of course?

But as far as needing to use a whole temp track as inspiration, what if I do not like the whole track though? For example, here's one I like that I thought would fit some of my scenes, and I like the start of it:

To Die For: Main Titles - Danny Elfman's Music - YouTube

But at 1:04 into the track, it goes into heavy metal, and I do not want the heavy metal. I prefer everything before that though. So is so wrong to cut off the heavy metal part, if I give him a temp track of it? Why do we have to be inspired by the entire track?

I think this was discussed before, you can edit music tracks assist the timing and to match the mood in the edit. However, there's no point in going over old ground, since you don't seem have the skill set to do this,

For sure, I can edit them to match the length of a sequence of how long I want it. If a temp track is too long though, I might have to repeat parts of it of course though.

But since it was said before that my temp tracks are too different, I don't know where to find temp tracks that would be similar enough to match each other, since I get the idea for tracks from different sources. How does one find temp tracks that are similar enough to each other?

I think I might have realised the problem. We're talking blindly about 'temp tracks' with our understanding of them, and not realised Ryan may not have realised that temp tracks are not a defined, factual and quantifiable item, but a loose description of a problem solver. I looked back at my own temp track usage, in terms of ones I received, and ones I generated.

The critical thing I think, is that they are all designed for a purpose, and are a way that can often allow parallel development of the editing, sound, effects and process without everyone wasting time doing the wrong things, or working on assumptions later to be proven wrong.

A temporary audio track can provide the editor with the 'feel'. The context to allow editing to start. On the other hand, the visuals with the attached temporary audio track can then allow the composer to work properly - seeing hit points and the purpose of some of the audio cues that have to be built.

The director has a scene in his mind where the two characters enter the frame from the side, hold hands and slowly walk off into the distance. It even says that in the script. What it doesn't say is if it's a Brief Encounter style walk off, or something much lighter, maybe like singing in the rain? So are we talking about those rain scenes in my favourite, Blade Runner, or Gene Kelly jumping around, or something very personal and sad?

You find a nice audio track - preferably NOT from anything well known, but because that can come with the context from that movie. You want something emotive but anonymous. Something that can be faded out to match the length of the supplied video clip. The audio file without any video is pretty pointless. How does it help? You have one piece of music, and you're supposed to produce another???

If you do NOT have the visuals, you will perhaps have the visual version of the audio temp track? The storyboard, or at the very least a VERY detailed explanation of the scene, and it's placement in the entire movie, that itemises every scene, and how they lead into each other. This is critical for producing music that has a common anchor.

If you as Director, have particular wishes for the music - then ten seconds of a windy flute, or the screechy strings from Hitchcock movie will do the job - NOT the entire piece. If you envisage a strange droning sound to make the viewer feel melancholy when viewing a vista of a sand storm in a desert, find that sound and give them the sound - not the entire track. REMEMBER these soundtracks for the movie were written with the visuals in mind - the entire cue won't work out of context, but the sound you like might?

So the editor wants the feel for the scene, so much easier with a piece of music in their heads. The composer of the music needs the visuals. The trouble is there won't be the sound for the editor, or pictures for the composer - so temp tracks can induce the feel both need - BUT - they are a guide, NOT a prescription.

In Ryan's movie we don't even have the finished script, so we have no coherent story to follow. In this case, where the music has to be started early (far too early in my view at the moment - as if things get changed the music can be wrecked) then the only sensible way is a table showing the scenes, the action, the visuals and the sound, with some notes. Then the editor and composer have the same starting points.

Lets use this as an example.
SCENE 1 - BUSY 1980s CITY STREET - FAST, PACY, RHYTHMIC - Music needs to show how hectic and busy the scene is, with so many people rushing about going to work, getting on and off trams, taxi cabs rushing up to kerbs, people going in and out of slyscrapers

SCENE 2 - EMPTY VISTA OF A DESERT, CAMERA PANNING SLOWLY RIGHT TO LEFT, WITH TUMBLEWEED. - SLOW, UNCOMFORTABLE, DISSONANT, EMPTY, WAITING FOR SOMETHING TO HAPPEN - Music emphasises the contrast between the city, make the viewer wonder who or what is about to happen - ideally Wild West style harmonica, and maybe haunting fluttering from low flute type sound??

SCENE 2a - OLD DUSTY VEHICLE ENTERS THE SCENE ANDTRAVELS TOWARDS THE CAMERA. IT STOPS IN A CLOUD OF DUST AND OUR CHARACTER GETS OUT, WEARING CITY CLOTHES AND VAGUELY CLINT-EASTWOODESQUE. The music tells us something important is coming with a reveal, and needs to build to the climax of the car door opening and the character stepping out into the heat - ending with a pause as he looks around. Maybe a rattlesnake sound as he gets out of the vehicle?

SCENE 3 - POLICE STATION IN THE BUSY CITY - A LARGE OFFICE WITH BUSTLING PEOPLE - The music has elements of the original music in SC1 but is less overt, but similar - just calmed down a little. Maybe a rhythmic percussive feel?? (Example clip from 48 hours attached for the example of the rhythm)


That 48 hours clip would not be a temp track, but more of an example. If the composer got stuck, then he could ask for an example of what the director thought for the others.

They're tools to help editing and composition, not things to be copied.

Ryan seems to have got the process mixed up - I guess in reality, in this project, the sound needs to be set aside till something actually gets shot that can be worked to, or everyone will have to do things twice.

Temp tracks don't need to be all the same, although they should reflect the mood and emotions of the scenes and give the film its feel.

Your composer will make it consistent throughout.

EDIT, I posted this after having written part of it, then doing some domestic stuff before finishing. it. As Paul says, you need to understand how temp tracks get used. An example where you can compere is 2001, which uses the temps tracks in the final soundtrack, but now you can buy Alex North's music for the film, so you can compare the music. Some classical composers did very well out of that soundtrack.especially György Ligeti and Richard Strauss..

2001 - A Space Odyssey - Alex North title - YouTube

Alex North's score is pretty standard Hollywood big epic, but you can hear how things change from "temp". He did the score to Spartacus, which may explain why Kubrick selected him.