View Full Version : Is it possible to make instruments sound natural through audio editing like this?


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Brian Drysdale
January 25th, 2021, 09:54 AM
There are usually more run down industrial and poorer districts in most cities or surrounding towns.

Greg Miller
January 25th, 2021, 10:32 AM
As for the location, it was said before when I wanted to paint the locations and could not, to just live with the imperfections of the location and make due, so wouldn't that go for audio imperfections with the location as well, or should I try to find better locations for audio and visuals?

First of all, I wouldn't consider wall color to be an "imperfection." Also, painting walls is pretty permanent, AND I've seen a lot of bad painting in my life. Then there's the damage spilled paint can cause. If someone wanted to shoot in one of my houses, and wanted to repaint, I would demand, up front, cash for me to pay a painter to put it back to my colors at a level of quality I accept, and some sort of damage guarantee.

Sound comes and goes. If it's a refrigerator or room A/C, you ask if you can turn it off for a few minutes. If the location is under a flight path, you shoot at night after the day's last flight. If it's server room noise situation, you make sure, in advance, that your sound man can cope with the noise. Of course some b/g noise is OK in the final release, *if* it seems to be appropriate to the scene (e.g. street noise to a street scene). It's the jumping around of level that is unrealistic and jarring.

(BTW, there were parts of your film where the dialog jumped to just one channel, or was on both channels but at unequal levels. There were parts where one channel was more than 10dB louder than the other ... and in those parts there was audible background hum ... that was a VERY bad section of the film. You can't blame that stuff on the location, that was terrible mixing!)

Josh Bass
January 25th, 2021, 11:10 AM
Again, I don't think Ryan knows how to evaluate his personnel...I think he either takes whoever will work with him or if given options doesn't know how to weed out people who don't know what they're doing/talking about.

Ryan Elder
January 25th, 2021, 11:25 AM
Sure, I can try those. Thanks. It's just I don't want the building itself to look rundown, if the story doesn't call for it. But there might be some buildings that do not look like that on the inside there. Thanks.

Brian Drysdale
January 25th, 2021, 11:35 AM
It's the art director's job to make sure it doesn't look rundown.

Ryan Elder
January 25th, 2021, 12:21 PM
That's true, as long as the walls don't look too bad and all. But that's true.

Greg Miller
January 25th, 2021, 01:22 PM
So all you need is a run-down abandoned building in a bad neighborhood, time and money to re-do the interior, utilities turned on and working, and a shotgun to take care of the rats. Sounds like a winner. Oh, yeah, don't forget to evict all the homeless people already living there.

Josh Bass
January 25th, 2021, 01:24 PM
“homeless people?” I think you mean future cast.

Ryan Elder
January 25th, 2021, 03:06 PM
Well I will spend a larger budget on the next one and hopefully that will help things out.

Brian Drysdale
January 25th, 2021, 05:38 PM
Regarding your music, Stop asking questions here, watch this film and work things out for yourself,

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Score-Film-Music-Documentary-DVD/dp/B079JGMVP3

As a director, it gives what you need, If you feel the need to ask more questions here about composers and film music,give up directing.

Ryan Elder
January 25th, 2021, 10:44 PM
Oh okay thanks, that looks interesting, I will watch it! Thanks.

Well the composer wants to use a lot more acoustic samples of real instruments, but there are times when I want to use the synth and actually want the synth style. But he says there is no point in a synth when there are samples of each instrument nowadays. Is that true, the synth is just a paste tense dated instrument?

Brian Drysdale
January 26th, 2021, 02:25 AM
Listen to your composer, it's their job, get them get on with it. The synth is still around, sometimes mixed in with acoustic instruments. The latter can be samples or a real orchestra.

Pure synth can have a 1980s feel.

Paul R Johnson
January 26th, 2021, 02:30 AM
Ryan. You said you watched the spitfire video? How many times must I tell you that nowadays there is no practical distinction between synthesis and sampling, and the software current composers have often feature both. The spitfire people record world class instruments in world class studios and the wrap them in a delivery package that enables attack, decay, sustain, release, filters and effects to be added, which is how synthesisers work. The products are hybrids. You can take the attack off a piano and it changes, you can add attack to a wet finger bowl sound and it changes. You say the composer wants to use more real sounds, but if he does, it’s just a subset in the selection process. Mechanical hardware synths could be from the 80s for a real one, but you now have them as sounds in the computer. Of course they are dated sounds, but you cannot do modern dance music without them, if you don’t do dance music, you might not use them, but if you find a great sound you will.

You have just shown that you still have no clue at all about composition nowadays. Sadly, nor does your composer. If you want your music and effects to be like real movies, you’ve got to stop living in the past and embrace the quite simple technology of music production, or find somebody who does understand it.

I have a Korg synth from the 80s. I also have the same thing in my computer as a 40 pound VSTi plug in. The computer one wins, because it doesn’t go out of tune. Korg still make profit from a 40 year old product. Some people still love the sound and feel and even smell of old instruments. Rick Wakeman lives in my part of the world and has a barn full of old synths, but he has multiples of his favourites because they’re old and fragile, and plays some very modern and expensive ones live. In the studio, we all have access now to any sound we want. We do not care how it is constructed. Explain what part of this you don’t understand?

Ryan Elder
January 26th, 2021, 08:05 AM
Oh okay, but in the spitfire video though, I thought it didn't sound complete, because he still had to add articulation and certain effects after, on a finished product, or so that is what the composer told me. But if a synth is just as good as sampling then why do a lot of musicians even use sampling, or why was it even invented, if a synth is just as good and no difference?

Paul R Johnson
January 26th, 2021, 10:38 AM
Yes - that is exactly how you PLAY synths and samplers - you have what are called controllers - volume, expression, modulation, pitch bend, noise, ADSR - and your driving keyboard has these mappable to all the parameters - so you have notes played with one hand, and then controllers played with the other hand, feet or even knees! That is why traditional pianists often suffer.

Sampling is the process where you take a sound an manipulate it. The old tape based mellotron was a crude sampler. Today's samplers are totally different. The spitfire collection for example - a violin sample is probably 5000 separate samples. If you play quietly, you might have 100 of those in play, if you play a bit louder, a different set of 100, play louder and another - if you use key switching - your middle C note might be playable in 15 different styles, each one with a hundred samples. So when we talk about sampling - a bass flute could actually be many thousands of samples - and all those faders, keys and knobs select which ones play!

Synthesisers originally were analogue devices, lots of oscillators and filters. Then Yamaha invented FM synthesis which produced different sounds in a totally different way. If you buy a synth at any period in history, you have stock sounds and then variations. If you are Michael Jackson, then you buy a Prophet, which was one of his favourites. However, if you had a Roland, it didn't sound like a prophet. Rick Wakeman loved Moogs, but they were terribly unreliable. Samplers originally were crude devices - they could record, and replay. That's about it. They got better and better but still clunky things - then software overtook them and things exploded. Now if you want to, you can buy a package of Korg historic instruments - their popular synths since the 80s - and I cannot tell the difference. A product called Kontakt can take the samples produced by many individuals and it manipulates them to make something amazing. Some sounds came from a microphone, others have never been real but are recordings of other recordings - hence why sampling and synthesis are now very closely linked. In the 90s, you bought an Akai sampler, connected a microphone and recorded maybe six notes from your chosen instrument - very crude, but they worked.

Sampling and Synths are just different, and now it's a bit like comparing a tape based camera with a card based camera. They are very different in construction, and the media is totally different, but once they are in the editor, can you tell if it started life on tape?

Musicians are no longer restricted by technology, or actual instruments. If you have a guitar recorded with the bottom note as an E - what happens if your song needs an Eb? You tell your DAW to change it. In the DAW that note is a sample, it can be changed.

You are still thinking these things are separate. They are NOT. I've said this time and time again. If I select one sound out of the hundreds on the single knob - I only know if it is a sample or synthesised when I press a button and look. I simply do NOT need to know. Frankly, nor do you, or your composer - who is clearly 20 years behind the times I am afraid. If your composer is less than 25, you have to ask why he doesn't know this? Every teenager at school and college doing music use this kit nowadays.

Ryan Elder
January 26th, 2021, 12:12 PM
Oh okay thanks, for the info. Sorry for not having trouble understanding yet.

But the composer said that some of the sounds I want in the example tracks I gave him, are from instruments that he needs to have pre-recorded samples of, and that no synthesizer can create those sounds from scratch. Is he right on that, or a synthesizer can sound just like any instrument without any pre-recorded samples at all? He's in his 30s.

Paul R Johnson
January 26th, 2021, 12:49 PM
He is speaking complete and utter rubbish Ryan. I have two locations. Audio I do from an extension to my house, and this is where my audio studio is, and it has Tb's of instruments on it. I use Cubase 11 Pro currently. I keep adding when new ones pop along that appeal to me - which means I'm not interested in drum loops or electronic dance music sounds, but I am very interested in movie and classical style sounds. My video studio and office is a 20 minute walk away and there I have Cubase Elements - a cut down version, and my many of my sounds are able to be used on two computers. Others are only on the studio computer. Occasionally when I'm working on a project in the video studio, I can't find exactly what I want. However, there is always something close - but not right. So I select that and carry on. Then when I load it up back at home, I'll find something else to replace it with. I could record my own samples of a strange instrument into Kotakt and then play them on a keyboard, but I rarely do that any more - I can create exactly what I want in the machine. Let's imagine you are still totally sold on the bass flute. What I do is listen to a few on YouTube and try to determine how it is different from an ordinary flute. Obviously lower, but the airflow is also lower so it has a breather sound and more hollow. So I look at all the flutes I have and transpose them down an octave. Some just don't work. Others work but change tonality in the wrong way, but then I find something closer to what I want. Maybe, the synth/sampler tells me, m this is made up of a transposed flute with a hint of clarinet and an exotic Indian instrument. You tweak and audition and you have made a new and unique sound. often it sounds better than the real thing. Lower woodwind often degenerate to a washy windy noise with no attack - but with the tools available, you can add attack, that a real one simply cannot do. Something like a harmonica patch can sound horrible - but you double it, compress it, and add long reverb to it and it can sound magical. Not remotely real when you compare it. It sounds like your composer just has a rubbish, or incomplete library - or of course he could really be into electronic dance music and his library is huge, but he has few of your instruments. Instruments - as in real ones fall into very specific categories. They will be hit, plucked, blown with a single or double reed, or will use your lip, or they will use an air splitting device. others might be strings or membranes under tension, and can be tuned to a single pitch or tuned to a general non-tuned sound - like a timp in the orchestra or a tom-tom. One has a pitch, one doesn't. The tight string or membrane can be 'excited' with fingers, hair on a bow, hit with the wood on the back of the bow, twanged with a pick, or even excited by sounds in the room. All these things have a physical process that happens. Nowadays we can synthesise this entire process so well, you would swear it was real. For instance Steinway and Bosendorfer two great piano makers have collaborated with the software people and endorsed the sound that comes from the synth as worthy of the name. Equally, some synths are truly dire. I have a saxophone one that sounds like a kazoo. Oddly though, I have even used it!

Does this make sense Ryan.

Ryan Elder
January 26th, 2021, 12:58 PM
Oh okay, but you said that a synth can produce the same sound as sampling and with no difference. If it can do that, why bother to record all the instruments and build a library then? Why not just have the synth to make the sounds for without sampling, if it can do the same things? That's the part I don't understand.

I also don't understand what is wrong with the bass flute, since it keeps being brought up. Is it just a totally inferrior instrument and should never be used? Because out of all the sounds I wanted from example tracks, the flute keeps coming up, so it it just bad sounding, or what's the problem with it?

Brian Drysdale
January 26th, 2021, 02:01 PM
Why don't you look online for these differences?

Pro Tips: Samplers vs Synths - YouTube.

Meet the Bass Flute - YouTube

Paul R Johnson
January 26th, 2021, 03:21 PM
It's simply because we are talking about nuances, and subtlety Ryan. If I wanted to play my double bass, but do a palm mute, or a slap, that is very difficult to synthesise musically. If I wanted a walking bass sequence, then I'd probably dial up double bass and pick the one that sounded right. This could be a sample or a synthesised sound - I wouldn't bother to even check. There is no rule - whatever sounds best, is best.

Being very frank, with regards to the bass flute, is that in 40 years, I have never had one, let alone played one properly, because they're really not common instruments. If I wanted one in this area I doubt anyone actually has one. It's not remotely a common sound or a common instrument. You would not find one in many orchestras - although a few players of that calibre would probably have one - they just wouldn't need it often. You went on about it so much, it's stuck in my head - but it's like a bass harmonica - have you ever heard one of those? They exist, but few people have one.

You're doing your rule book thing again - you find it difficult to think in the abstract and want maths. If a certain thing happens, you want to be able to produce a conclusion. There are loads of nice instruments out there, but they don't get used very often.

Josh Bass
January 26th, 2021, 03:30 PM
So Paul, not that I'm in the market right now, but is there one package/plugin, maybe a starter something, that has some of all the most common stuff? horns, flutes, strings, etc., maybe quick settings/presets to manipulate them to get common variations on how each of those things can be played, that you would recommend? Something that could be hosted inside Logic? I've especially had trouble with the Logic built-in synths finding 80s cheese keys patches/sounds. Granted, I do not fully understand the synths because they are so complex, so maybe I could make them myself if I knew enough.

Ryan Elder
January 26th, 2021, 03:34 PM
It's simply because we are talking about nuances, and subtlety Ryan. If I wanted to play my double bass, but do a palm mute, or a slap, that is very difficult to synthesise musically. If I wanted a walking bass sequence, then I'd probably dial up double bass and pick the one that sounded right. This could be a sample or a synthesised sound - I wouldn't bother to even check. There is no rule - whatever sounds best, is best.

Being very frank, with regards to the bass flute, is that in 40 years, I have never had one, let alone played one properly, because they're really not common instruments. If I wanted one in this area I doubt anyone actually has one. It's not remotely a common sound or a common instrument. You would not find one in many orchestras - although a few players of that calibre would probably have one - they just wouldn't need it often. You went on about it so much, it's stuck in my head - but it's like a bass harmonica - have you ever heard one of those? They exist, but few people have one.

You're doing your rule book thing again - you find it difficult to think in the abstract and want maths. If a certain thing happens, you want to be able to produce a conclusion. There are loads of nice instruments out there, but they don't get used very often.

Oh okay, well I understand what the guy says in the video, in the difference between sampling and synthesizing. One is pre-recorded sounds of real instruments, the other is creating from scratch. But the composer said that some of the sounds in the example tracks I want are impossible to create from scratch and he would need to use real samples of real instruments to get those types of sounds.

And like you said, a slap or palm mute would be difficult to create from scratch. So therefore, I didn't think they both sampling and synthesis could achieve the same results therefore.

But as for the bass flute, well in some of the example tracks I wanted the score to sound like there is a flute playing, and the cloest flute me and the composer could find for it was the bass flute. So I was just going for that regardless of the popularity of the instrument. But I figure since a flute sound like that has been used in other movie scores, then it's okay to use that type of sound probably. I can ask the composer if another flute around the same range, would be better though. But I don't have to use the bass flute. Maybe there is a better one I do not know of. Is there? I can ask him.

Paul R Johnson
January 26th, 2021, 03:46 PM
Of course there is a better sound than the bass flute, you and me just haven't found it ....... yet.

Your composer may not known how to do it, or may not have the right software, or may have it and not know it, or a million other reasons. If you want a Vietnamese nose flute - sometimes you just don't have time to create one, so buy one.

Here are some:
https://www.sonixinema.com/products/brute-flute
https://www.alessandrobaticci.com/hyperflute/
https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Special_Woodwinds/Bass_flute
There are deals available on the last one to get the complete bass flute package for 88 dollars.

So if you want the bass flute - that's a start - but then it might sound not remotely like you have in your head, so you could try th e baticci one, and if that too doesn't sound right the brute-flute might work for you. The snag being that even with their samples available until you try it in the mix you won't know if it works, will you?

Ryan Elder
January 26th, 2021, 04:01 PM
Oh okay thank you very much, I am just going to look at those. Well one instrument that I was told cannot be created from scratch is a bass sax, and I would need good samples of those, if that's true? Or can one be created from scratch and still sound like one?

I could ask the composer if I different flute would be best though.

Paul R Johnson
January 26th, 2021, 04:20 PM
Saxophones are probably the worst to create because there are so many ways to play them, and even two saxophones that look the same sound different. Synthesising a sax is hard, but equally samples may not help because saxophones are very expressive and the sound is often the combination of instrument, musical prowess and the construction of your mouth, nasal passages, throat and diaphragm. I have a couple of saxophone synths and they can do some things quite well, but they fall down on recreating what happens when you tighten your embouchure and bite down. To be frank this is most obvious on tenors through to sopranos. Baritiones mainly honk and a bass saxophone is like the bass flute. I have had a baritone but don't currently own one and have no need or desire to spend crazy money on one. I have never played a bass saxophone. They're rare, and rather limited in what you'd do with one. They also cost the price of a rather nice car.

what on earth do you want to use these random instruments for? If I wanted a bass sound - I'd not be looking at a bass sax, that's for definite!

Josh Bass
January 26th, 2021, 04:24 PM
He's obviously taking inspiration from this

The Lost Boys Sax Man Scene HD (2011 Epic Remix) - YouTube

Ryan Elder
January 26th, 2021, 04:36 PM
Oh some of the example tracks have certain sounds I wanted in a similar context to the example track.
One of the sounds I wanted was the bass sax at 0:12 into this example track:

Sin City OST - Marv - YouTube

I wanted that bass sax sound particularly for it.

And the bass flute, is in example tracks like this, at 0:38 in:

The Replacement Killers soundtrack part 3 - YouTube

And at 1:44 into this clip:

The Replacement Killers soundtrack part 4 - YouTube

It may not exactly be a bass flute, but it's some kind of flute, but it was the closest sound the composer could find and I think it's close and good, but maybe there is something better. There are other parts of the movie, where it plays more, that I could not find online though. But I could cut them out of the movie and use them as example tracks.

Paul R Johnson
January 26th, 2021, 05:00 PM
I'm really not hearing named instruments Ryan - sounds to me like a library I have when you pick low woodwinds for the flute - the same kind of synthetic feel - so recreating that would be simple. I doubt it's a bass flute - I mean, it could be, but that is a processed sound, so where it came from is immaterial real bass flutes do NOT sound like that. On my system I can select the broad heading 'flute', then various types - raspy, windy, fluttery, synth and synthetic - sub menus let me refine the search down to atmospheres, layers, SFX, morphing, and lots of others. Then - you might end up with a short list of 60 maybe to go through, one by one. If you don't find it, you change the search terms and start again.

The sax - sounds more like a baritone to me, but again - I'd have dozens to select from.

I have to point something out though - those sounds work because of the other sounds. Change those and the one you like would get lost or stand out like a sore thumb. You cannot take that kind of music - all those clips, and produce a definitive track list. They probably are collections of layered sounds - there could be half a dozen and you hear just one - they're often called combinations. Collections of sounds layered together to produce the patch.Now I realise where you are coming from. You are on a pointless quest. It's like you have a favourite meal, but the essential ingredient is a jar of cooking sauce from the supermarket that doesn't;t have a label on it. You might think it has cumin in it, but maybe it doesn't, and has a few other spices that trick you into thinking it's cumin. You like the style and the feel. You have a low reed instrument, but treat it just as that - do NOT get sidetracked trying to define it further, it's like typing one hand behind your back.

One point - if you have played those clips to your composer and he is clueless, then he will never be able to produce what you want. You are speaking two different languages - he hears you bang on about a bass sax or bass flute and is now locked in on that and doesn't realise you are just misunderstanding what you are hearing. Don;t buy those samples I suggested, they won't produce these sounds I doubt.

Ryan Elder
January 26th, 2021, 05:07 PM
Oh okay. The composer said it was a flute with processing and effects added to it, but he says it was real flute samples originally, and not made from scratch, because of how the flute flowes from one note to the other. Or that is what he said anyway. So I would still need real flute samples to start with he said. There are also two other parts of the soundtrack where you hear the flute from the same movie soundtrack more, but I cannot find any online links to them. Since he said he would need real flute samples to start with, I thought the bass flute was the closest when I listened to examples, but that's just what I thought might be best, based on the sound being the most similar that I could find.

He said it was a bass sax, but yes it could be a baritone, I was just going with what he told me. And yes, he can add similar interests, to create a similar context. I am not saying I want those sounds played in different ways in different contexts. I just wanted those couple of types of sounds in those contexts particularly, for what I wanted.

Like for example the sax has a pizzicato bass and a drum and other things that along with it. The composer can have those play along with them too of course, in order to make it work.

Paul R Johnson
January 26th, 2021, 05:18 PM
Who can tell Ryan? Why does it matter? If he can make the sound somehow - you are happy, if he can't you will spend hundreds trying to find the elusive sound. Composers rarely use anything as it comes out of the box - they always tweak, enhance, modify - they often cannot remember what they even did.

Why don't you just stop involving yourself in things you don't understand - what is the point? If your composer cannot sort it - he's not really very good, is he? You certainly cannot help - apart from saying you like it or not.

Would you not be better putting your effort into your script - something you CAN do as it's your script, and you know it better than anyone else. Leave the other stuff until you have some footage to work to for sound.

Ryan Elder
January 26th, 2021, 05:20 PM
Oh well it's just I want to get more involved in the music process because in past projects, the scores didn't sound like how I wanted them to, so I wanted to get more involved therefore. Otherwise I feel the same thing will happen and it will not sound how I feel it should.

Brian Drysdale
January 26th, 2021, 05:42 PM
Just watch how the best film music composers create their music in that "Score" documentary, At the moment, your current method seems to be a moving target of copy and pasting stuff from other films.

Ryan Elder
January 26th, 2021, 05:56 PM
Well I don't want the composer to do the exact same track but give me something that is simiIar in feel and sound, but is that bad? I watched the movie Score. It was pretty good, and learned some things from it for sure! The producer and director do work with the composers during the process though in the video clips in the movie, and the composer still seems to want to give them what they are looking for to an extent, but also throwing in some ideas of their own. I think after thinking about it and what you people said that I should perhaps put the example tracks in the final edit, but then ask the composer if he has any other ideas too in his experties, that I may like better. Then in the end, I can pick which temp tracks I feel work best, if that's better?

Brian Drysdale
January 27th, 2021, 02:14 AM
That sounds more sensible. In the documentary, they're composing music in the post production stage, so everyone has a sense of what the film actually feels and looks like.

For anyone in the UK, it's currently available on iplayer: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0002pf6/score-cinemas-greatest-soundtracks

Paul R Johnson
January 27th, 2021, 03:02 AM
The guy michelmore I bang on about is worth watching because he gets sent new instruments, so in his videos he will have an instrument to use a video and no guide at all. Composing music for film and tv is his job. He listens watches and plays. Sometimes it works and sometimes he just says no, that’s rubbish, when I rather liked it. However, the way he works is important and it’s also always fast. If he is showing off something he plays with it, tweaking and fiddling until he goes aha, then a melody appears. He will do the whole cue or just 16 bars of it. He spends time getting tempo right or deciding on the time sig, but he plays, and it builds. Most music in a movie is not a theme - the bit that gets promoted as the movie music, but it’s mood music and after people finish the movie they cannot remember it.

Josh Bass
January 27th, 2021, 08:54 AM
There are or used to be scoring programs that used virtual instruments along with settings for tempo, mood, key, probably a billion other things to create a score suited to your movie. You can do it bar by bar so it builds and dips in the right places etc. One was “sony cinescore”. Doesnt look like they make it any more but maybe there are others. Something like that seems like it’d be perfect for Ryan. yeah, you wont the most unique score but do you really need it? This aint Star Wars or Indiana Jones. He could fart around to his heart’s content til he got it just right and not have to pay anyone else or harass them with endless tweaks and revisions.

Ryan Elder
January 27th, 2021, 08:57 AM
Okay thanks, I saw some of the michelmore ones before, and can watch some more. Thanks.

I wasn't thinking most of the music would be 'theme music', just music that fits the moments more so.

Ryan Elder
January 27th, 2021, 01:15 PM
There are or used to be scoring programs that used virtual instruments along with settings for tempo, mood, key, probably a billion other things to create a score suited to your movie. You can do it bar by bar so it builds and dips in the right places etc. One was “sony cinescore”. Doesnt look like they make it any more but maybe there are others. Something like that seems like it’d be perfect for Ryan. yeah, you wont the most unique score but do you really need it? This aint Star Wars or Indiana Jones. He could fart around to his heart’s content til he got it just right and not have to pay anyone else or harass them with endless tweaks and revisions.

Oh well even though I know what I want the music to sound like, I still don't know how to write it. But does does Sony cinescore allow you to use samples of instruments though?

Josh Bass
January 27th, 2021, 01:29 PM
They don't make it anymore; maybe can find an old version on eBay or similar software, but yes, that's what I was getting at, samples/instruments are built in, you don't have to know jack about music...it has all sorts of parameters for mood, tempo, etc you adjust, and you can edit to build/climax at just the right moment etc. It's aimed at people who don't know how to write music.

David Dalton
January 27th, 2021, 02:35 PM
There are several examples on Youtube demonstrating Cinescore. I know nothing about music but used it on amateur films. I found it very useful. A lot of people were disappointed when Sony didn't develop it.

Josh Bass
January 27th, 2021, 02:37 PM
Seems like there have to be alternatives? Surely sony isnt the only one who thought to fill that niche.

Pete Cofrancesco
January 27th, 2021, 03:46 PM
It's on ebay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-Cinescore-1-0-Professional-Soundtrack-Creation/201900457264?hash=item2f02347d30:g:DoAAAOSwvihY-mdO

I predicted 10 pages back that Ryan would want to take over the composer's job.

... You strike me as someone who pumps a professional for information then instead of hiring them, you try to do it yourself. You embody many "bad" client characteristics.

Ryan Elder
January 27th, 2021, 04:03 PM
Oh okay, I'm not taking over the composer's job. It was suggested to me that I try out cinescore, so I was just taking the suggestion.

Paul R Johnson
January 27th, 2021, 04:29 PM
The snag with it was simply technology moved on and the Cinescore results started to get over-used, as any good software tends to. There really wasn't much wrong with it, but the number of add on packs didn't;t develop - so with the rise of Shazzam, the 'uniqueness' of the end results started to drop off - people on forums would complain that everything started to sound the same, and they also started to object to the need to buy continual add ons to be different from the ones you did last week. A great idea and for a while, it was different, but then it started to just get boring and, to be fair, they didn't have the ability to put in a bass flute themed track - clearly a severe limitation.

Seriously though - technology has got a lot better in ten years - but also the kind of music people want has also changed.

Greg Miller
January 27th, 2021, 06:30 PM
they didn't have the ability to put in a bass flute themed track - clearly a severe limitation.

But if you layer a didgeridoo and a nose flute, couldn't you approximate the same thing?

Ryan Elder
January 27th, 2021, 06:45 PM
Oh okay. Well I wanted sounds from different sources, and wasn't planning on relying on just one package, if that is what you mean, unless that package were to be so good, it would have them all in it.

Dave Baker
January 28th, 2021, 02:00 AM
Seems like there have to be alternatives? Surely sony isnt the only one who thought to fill that niche.The alternative is Smartsound's Sonicfire Pro, they are still updating it and producing new music for it.

I have both, I often prefer Cinescore music but the repertoire is very limited, even though I have four of the five theme packs they produced. The one on ebay looks to be the original package with only the Cinescore Essentials theme pack, which also contains some sound FX. Unless some other theme packs can be found it would be very restricted. I have searched for the pack I am missing, but no luck, so haven't bothered for a few years.

Paul R Johnson
January 28th, 2021, 02:18 AM
Dave’s comment is the problem, you need to constantly add and update. I think Ryan missed we were talking about the products that generate the music for you. He’s talking now about the sample/synthesis packages and few weeks pass without buying something from the email offers that come every day.

Sounds are personal. I collaborate with another musician and we have a core of common packages. If he needs X for a project I will work on later, I buy it too, and vice versa. However, though I just bought the latest spitfire, he found nothing in it useful to his music, which only deals with real instruments, not the pads, washes and effects. I have lots of violins, because he writes violin music!

EDIT
Ironically yesterday I got a Ryan style commission. I got a time, and a mid piece hit point for a change. Small chamber music, sadder at the start, brighter at the hit point, then, can it have a bass clarinet and a violin! I thought of Ryan straight away.

Ryan Elder
January 28th, 2021, 08:32 AM
Oh why did you think of me, because of that?

Paul R Johnson
January 28th, 2021, 09:52 AM
Make the link Ryan - you should not have to ask the question.