Adding new characters doesn't always cover holes in the plot or story, quite a few films have holes if you stop and think about them. It's how you handle them with a slight of hand that covers them, so the audience don;'t notice them. Solving them may need the writer to do some thinking and may involve going back and rethinking their set ups.

An amusing thing about the time of the USSR was that a number of Russians would speak English with a North American accent.

Sometimes, I get the feeling that your film making friends like winding you up.

Yeah most movies I have seen have holes and the movies were still successes, no one seems to care, but for maybe beta readers are more picky about them because the are looking compared to most viewers?

Oh well the submarine script would be set in modern times and not the former USSR I don't think, if that makes any difference.

But for the current script I was wanting to do as well, which I think would still cost less, it was said before on here, that I am trying to emulate movies that are too big budget.

What microbudget movies should I try to be inspired by more, in the crime thriller genre then, if anyone has any ideas on that?

Do the Russians still have an operating submarine fleet?

The submarine used in the plot is older, but the plot is still set in modern times.

Here are some low budget examples: https://screenrant.com/low-budget-thrillers-better-than-blockbusters/

https://www.raindance.org/25-low-budget-films-that-launched-careers/

Although, most have a bigger budget than yours, especially if you allow for inflation.

Regarding Russian subs:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutton/2020/06/03/6-types-of-submarine-the-russian-navys-extreme-modernization/?sh=33e39c807a6e

https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/security/2019/10/russian-northern-fleet-massive-submarine-show

Oh okay thanks. I've seen two of the movies but I can chek out the rest. Well normally in a crime thriller there is going to be physical altercations between the characters, if you want someone to get killed especially, so would something like these be do-able on a low budget, if it made sense to the plot to have them:

Jack Bauer Slaughters Abu Fayed - 24 Season 6 - YouTube

The Chaser - Fight Scene - YouTube

There are also scenes of people being shot though, since cops bring guns to arrests of course, so would something like this be do-able, with today's low bduget effects:

L.A. Confidential (5/10) Movie CLIP - Shotgun Ed (1997) HD - YouTube

I don't want to go for anything too flashy or over the top but develop the characters through the violence, that drives the plot if that makes sense.

You want to drive the story, not the plot.

The needs of the characters will drive the story, to meet their need some characters will use violence.

Physical altercations are doable on a low budget, rolling trucks are less so, unless you've got connections and old trucks.

Oh okay thanks. Well I was thinking for the truck, we just shoot it with a green screen behind the truck, and we just flip it in post and have the actors climb out of it, as if it was flipped over, when it's actually right side up during shooting. But this would just be a bonus and I do not have to have this, but still wanted to try and experiment to see if it would work.

The truck was discussed earlier, if you're shooting on a tight schedule, you could easily spend a couple of hours getting one shot.

Would this just look totally unrealistic. I’m not sure I could make this look real. So many problems. Hair, loose items etc. Sounds like a nightmare and time consuming and equipment heavy

Reminds me of the SNL Toonces the cat skit. Features stock footage that 70s movies were so fond of the car driving off a cliff into a canyon.

Speaking of doing things you shouldn’t. What ever happened to recording the gun shots? You spent months planning and talking about it. Did you ever do it?

Well perhaps if I do the effect I can show them start to climb out of the truck, but then cut away quickly, so the audience just got the idea that they got out and escaped. The characters are wearing hood masks though, since they are in the commission of crimes, and do not want to be recognized. So loose hair may not be a problem therefore.

Yes I did record the gunshots.

So what were the results? I assume they didn’t sound like what you hear in movies and would have been better off buying professionally recorded sound effects. I think that was the consensus in that thread.

Yeah they didn't sound the best, but it was still a good sound recording learning experience. Some movies do use the live gun shots, like I read Heat (1995) did, so I guess the live recordings are preferred sometimes then, if that's the case?

I don't know why you put in the "if that's the case" question. There is reasoning behind using live audio in "Heat" because of the building's reverberation etc so it was probably recorded in stereo. They were also using assault rifles which are puncher than pistols.

Heat Shootout Behind the Scenes Feature - YouTube

What works in "Heat" may not work in your film because you don't have the resources. However, there lots of times in documentaries and news where live gunshots are recorded. It depends on what you want, bearing in mind that most feature films replace the live shots and that seems to drive you more than anything.

Oh okay. I can use sound effects. As for recording in stereo, why does that make a difference, if the mics are right next to each other? Don't the mics need to be significantly further apart for stereo to be effective?

I was also wondering in my script, it said before that I reveal too many plot points too fast. I was wondering, how long should I wait in between plot points before revealing the next one, if there is a good guideline for that?

Stereo recording is a subject that allows a listener to close their eyes and perceive a stereo field. As in you can point to where something is with varying degrees of accuracy. Your brain is able to determine two functions. Differences in level between left and right and differences in time. There are broadly two different techniques, but hundreds of subtle differences. A/B where microphones are spaced, so there is time and level differences between what they capture and X/Ywhere the microphone capsules are as close as possible and the only differences are in level, not time. The right technique for a given circumstance sounds real, but the wrong one sounds wrong and your brain views the scene and the sound and they fight. TV and movies usual cheat and recreate stereo field to suit the bigger screen and home viewing setups, hence why voice centre effects in stereo has become the norm.

It is usual to use coincident techniques not spaced, because you have more versatility and mono compatibility hence why X/Y and M/S are more common. Gunshots being impulse sounds respond badly to spaced microphones.

Oh okay. Should I record everything in stereo then, including the actors' dialogue?

But if two mics are both pointed at the same thing, such as the muzzle of the gun to record the gunshot, then most people cannot tell the difference if the mics are right next to each other, when pointed at the same source, right?

But right now I have two boom mics, but they are both mono. Should I trade them in for stereo condenser mics?

No, you record the actors in mono. Any stereoscopic positioning will be created in post, although dialogue is commonly keep cental.

Stereo recording is usually only used for at atmosphere tracks. Effects are recorded in mono.

M/ S..is the usual method used by sound recordists. https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/introduction-mid-sides-recording. In this case, the stereo part would come from the reverberation from the surrounding buildings, not the gunshots themselves. I imagine there was work done in post if they were going for that effect, since M/S offers flexibility. That will give them both the mono and stereo information.

You should read up on that, you'll need an additional mic for the side and a windshield for the double mic arrangement.

On one of my shorts we recorded a PA system in the middle of some buildings in order to catch the echos. The actor's voice was prerecorded and was feed into the PA speaker..

This is going over old ground, it was discussed in another thread. Reading some of the books on film sound recording techniques wouldn't go amiss and would act as a reference.

You still seem to be confusing plot with story, they;re different. Using set ups earlier will prepare the audience for the reveals, You seem you be looking for rules again, it depends on your characters and the actions they take that will create the reveals. Look at the first three Bourne films for reveals and how Bourne's need drives the three films.

You really need to actually read people's posts. It seems you just cheery pick little bits of posts and remember a few facts and totally discount everything else. Recording dialogue is totally different to recording the sound of spaces. With speaking, the mic does not want to capture the background, so it follows the actors, but when you are recording BIG spaces, like maybe a shopping mall - the mic is FIXED and records the wide stereo field. On a football field, the same thing applies - a fixed stereo field, however, if you wanted to record a motorcycle entering right at speed, leaving the area left, you have a decision to make. You can record the motorcycle with a closer perspective, following it with a directed shotgun in mono, or you record the stereo image with the fixed pair of mics in X/Y or M/S. It's easy to pan mono right to left, but the fixed mics will also capture the doppler shift, making that more realistic.

I mean, you guys remember there was a whole other thread that went on for pages about this?

You really need to actually read people's posts. It seems you just cheery pick little bits of posts and remember a few facts and totally discount everything else. Recording dialogue is totally different to recording the sound of spaces. With speaking, the mic does not want to capture the background, so it follows the actors, but when you are recording BIG spaces, like maybe a shopping mall - the mic is FIXED and records the wide stereo field. On a football field, the same thing applies - a fixed stereo field, however, if you wanted to record a motorcycle entering right at speed, leaving the area left, you have a decision to make. You can record the motorcycle with a closer perspective, following it with a directed shotgun in mono, or you record the stereo image with the fixed pair of mics in X/Y or M/S. It's easy to pan mono right to left, but the fixed mics will also capture the doppler shift, making that more realistic.

Oh okay thanks. Sorry if I wasn't remembering enough. Yes I remember the other thread about recording in the field. However, there is one thing I still do not understand. Let's say I record a motorcycle for example, going from right to left, with a stereo mic. There is no center channel. So later when I do the sound mixing in post, wouldn't I have to create the centre channel? for when the motorcycle goes into the center more so? And if I create this center channel in post, does recording with a stereo mic to make it seem more realistic, make a difference in that case?

What do you mean by 'doppler shift'?

But in the other thread it was also said not to bother to record in surround on while on set, and to just do the mixing in post, because recording in surround causes other problems. So if recording in surround on set causes problems, compared to mixing in post, wouldn't that apply to stereo as well in some cases, especially if there is no center channel on a stereo mic?

No, you record the actors in mono. Any stereoscopic positioning will be created in post, although dialogue is commonly keep cental.

Stereo recording is usually only used for at atmosphere tracks. Effects are recorded in mono.

M/ S..is the usual method used by sound recordists. https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/introduction-mid-sides-recording. In this case, the stereo part would come from the reverberation from the surrounding buildings, not the gunshots themselves. I imagine there was work done in post if they were going for that effect, since M/S offers flexibility. That will give them both the mono and stereo information.

You should read up on that, you'll need an additional mic for the side and a windshield for the double mic arrangement.

On one of my shorts we recorded a PA system in the middle of some buildings in order to catch the echos. The actor's voice was prerecorded and was feed into the PA speaker..

This is going over old ground, it was discussed in another thread. Reading some of the books on film sound recording techniques wouldn't go amiss and would act as a reference.

You still seem to be confusing plot with story, they;re different. Using set ups earlier will prepare the audience for the reveals, You seem you be looking for rules again, it depends on your characters and the actions they take that will create the reveals. Look at the first three Bourne films for reveals and how Bourne's need drives the three films.

Oh okay thanks. But when recording atmosphere with a stereo mic, there is still no center channel in the mic. So do you create the center channel in post then? Yes when recording the gunshots on a mono mic, I did point the mic at different areas on different shots, to capture possible reverb sounds. But if I had more than one mic, or a stereo mic that would make it easier of course. It seems that most of the sound was coming from the gun itself though rather than any reverberation. Like the gunshots were overpowering any change of reverb being picked up I mean.

I also found that if you aim the mic at the back of the gun, it seems to capture more of a gunshot sound, compared to aiming at the muzzle. Unless I am doing it wrong.

Is 'plot point', the wrong term then, and I should just say reveal then? What if in a script the characters, have no reason to hold off on reveals though? It was said before that I give too many reveals in the story, too soon, but if the characters don't have a reason to hold off on them, wouldn't that make it more natural to the characters?

Read the link for M/S, so that part makes sense.

This is going over old ground there are left, centre and right channels in release stereo sound tracks. Don't you remember a whole thread that went in circles discussing this? Even on standard stereo system, without the need for audio in the centre of a large screen, you can create a centre in the stereo image (assuming you've set up the speakers correctly) with L and R speakers.

In "Heat" they weren't working in the simplistic manner you do, They wanted the sound of the guns going off in an urban environment, where the echos are all part of the audio landscape

If you're serious in being a sound guy, buy the books on this subject.

You should rethink your script, reveals should be there when they move the story forward and takes you to new places, some of which may be dead ends. You should check out the French TV series "Spiral" for using reveals, because it has endless reveals because everything inter meshes like gears.

Read the link for M/S, so that part makes sense.

This is going over old ground there are left, centre and right channels in release stereo sound tracks. Don't you remember a whole thread that went in circles discussing this?

In "Heat" they weren't working in the simplistic manner you do, They wanted the sound of the guns going off in an urban environment, where the echos are all part of the audio landscape

If you're serious in being a sound guy, buy the books on this subject.

You should rethink your script, reveals should be there when they move the story forward and takes you to new places, some of which may be dead ends. You should check out the French TV series "Spiral" for using reveals, because it has endless reveals because everything inter meshes like gears.

Oh okay. Yes I remember that their are left, right and center channels, and that is why I bring it up, because stereo mics only have 2 channels, or so I thought. That's why I brought it up, because there will be no center channel. However the article says there there is a mid mic in M/S so I guess that means 3 mics then? But also, in the article it says you just need two mics earlier on, so that part is confusing for me. It says you need two mics, but then later it mentions a mid mic. Is that one of the two mics, or is that a separate mic all together?

However, after reading that article, if I am reading it correctly, what you are saying is that the M/S system will help fill a center channel basically from what the article says, and what you are saying?

For my script, I thought the reveals did move the story forward, and to new places, unless it doesn't?

You take forever to do simple things, making them overly complex, ending up with a poor result.

In this case, a gun shot sound that matched the scene was called for. Instead of buying it, you insisted on to recording it yourself, despite being advised not to. You ended up with a sound everyone here predicted you would. You say even though it didn't turn out right it could have been used for the shoot out scene in Heat. Even if this was true, who cares because the whole point was to get a sound effect for a particular scene in your movie. Btw that scene is memorable because it's a shootout with assault rifles, in downtown LA, with crackling of gun fire reverberating of the buildings. Which is yet another example of you trying to copy out of context material from other movies.

You keep trying to record things either in stereo or surround sound when it shouldn't be despite being repeatedly advised not to. Who on earth would be concerned with the sound effects before the movie has been filmed and are still working on the script?

Oh okay. When did I record things in stereo or surround though? I was told to record surround before but did not. I only have mono mics, so I cannot record surround or stereo so far.

I know nothing about your script, nor do other people in this forum, so they can't comment on your reveals.

Stereo and surround was brought up in another of your threads. From what you're saying, you should just work in mono, rather than get involved in the complexities of a stereo or surround soundtrack. In this thread. it was brought up regarding the "Heat"soundtrack.

Okay thanks. I can record stereo for atmosphere, if that's better. I was just doing recording different areas with the environment with one mic, and then mixing them together later, so I wouldn't have to buy a new mic. But also, if I do it all with the same mic, I don't have to worry about any mismatching sound I thought.

As for the story, it seems that some of the story points on here, gave the impression that they were not necessary because they will not pay off later. I think a couple of other readers get this impression at first as well, until later when they pay off. But how do I as the writer, communicate to the reader "Don't worry, these story points and reveals will all pay off later", rather than give the impression that some of them may be unnecessary and mislead?

Watch "Back to the Future 1" for set ups and pay offs.

Oh okay thanks. I have the first one and it's one my favorite movies. It was said on before that I shouldn't introduce a character on a phone call, and have that be their first scene normally, but in Back to the Future, Doc Brown's introduction is over the phone though, so why did they choose to do it that way, rather than an in person introduction?

Blimey Ryan! Have you never played with 5:1 sound and actually listened to what is on each channel - this was the first thing I did with my first 5:1 product. Listen to see what information they carry. The centre channel is vitally important, because it is the cinema screen, No matter where in the auditorium you sit, the voices come from the middle of the scene. In years gone by, there would be a huge horn speaker that fired THROUGH the screen. The left and right tracks are for the components that need to be non central, or move. Music, like something we all know - let's pick Jaws. That low frequency DUM DUH sound. Pretty much equal between the speakers, so, like in home stereos it sounds like it comes from the middle, when it's really coming from L+R equally. So centre, but NOT the dedicated Vox track. The other parts of the music and probably some effects will come from the L and R channels. the two rear channels mainly have effects in them. Usually reverb, or other scene setting stuff like factory noises or rumbles.

That's your five channels. At the risk of saying it again - M/S is a stereo capable setup that allows width to be adjusted in the mix with no mono compatibility issues at all. one mic points forwards and captures the mono central sound - which can be used for all sorts of purposes, even straight dialogue. The other microphones concerntates on left and right with minimal capture forwards. The two things get blended using phase cancellation techniques and as their level increases, the stereo width increases. Quite a neat trick really, and it also means they can be built into similar zeppelin style windshields for use outdoors.

Last thing. Didn't they teach you about Doppler shift at school? As a sound source comes towards you, the wavefront compresses, giving a rise in pitch, as the object passes you the pitch lowers and as the wavefront is going away from you, the pitch is correspondingly lower. Police Sirens are the obvious one, although airplanes heading towards you and passing overhead also exhibit it.

You need to get firmly into your head the differences between dialogue and effects tracks. They do a very different job

Oh okay thanks. I have the first one and it's one my favorite movies. It was said on before that I shouldn't introduce a character on a phone call, and have that be their first scene normally, but in Back to the Future, Doc Brown's introduction is over the phone though, so why did they choose to do it that way, rather than an in person introduction?

At that point, we have already been set up for Doc Brown and know that hasn't been home for a while, plus he's stolen plutonium and is into time.

Back to the Future, Part I: The Beginning Scene (1985) [HD] - YouTube

Blimey Ryan! Have you never played with 5:1 sound and actually listened to what is on each channel - this was the first thing I did with my first 5:1 product. Listen to see what information they carry. The centre channel is vitally important, because it is the cinema screen, No matter where in the auditorium you sit, the voices come from the middle of the scene. In years gone by, there would be a huge horn speaker that fired THROUGH the screen. The left and right tracks are for the components that need to be non central, or move. Music, like something we all know - let's pick Jaws. That low frequency DUM DUH sound. Pretty much equal between the speakers, so, like in home stereos it sounds like it comes from the middle, when it's really coming from L+R equally. So centre, but NOT the dedicated Vox track. The other parts of the music and probably some effects will come from the L and R channels. the two rear channels mainly have effects in them. Usually reverb, or other scene setting stuff like factory noises or rumbles.

That's your five channels. At the risk of saying it again - M/S is a stereo capable setup that allows width to be adjusted in the mix with no mono compatibility issues at all. one mic points forwards and captures the mono central sound - which can be used for all sorts of purposes, even straight dialogue. The other microphones concerntates on left and right with minimal capture forwards. The two things get blended using phase cancellation techniques and as their level increases, the stereo width increases. Quite a neat trick really, and it also means they can be built into similar zeppelin style windshields for use outdoors.

Last thing. Didn't they teach you about Doppler shift at school? As a sound source comes towards you, the wavefront compresses, giving a rise in pitch, as the object passes you the pitch lowers and as the wavefront is going away from you, the pitch is correspondingly lower. Police Sirens are the obvious one, although airplanes heading towards you and passing overhead also exhibit it.

You need to get firmly into your head the differences between dialogue and effects tracks. They do a very different job

Oh okay. I took the directing and producing course at the school more so, and they didn't teach me a lot of audio. Thank you for that.

So in the M/S set up, it says that there are two mics, but what I don't understand is, is there a 3rd mic, when you say one mic points forward and captures the central sound? Does that mean there are 3 then?

I know which channels are which in a surround sound mix. But I was asking more about how a stereo mic would record the center channel. I wasn't asking about the post mix that is.

The centre channel is created in post.

The link I gave you earlier explains M/S and how it works, the side mic has a figure of 8 pattern,.This also explains: https://www.uaudio.com/blog/mid-side-mic-recording/

Mid Side Demystified - YouTube

Oh okay thanks. But in order for me to understand the route if it, I am having trouble understanding the pick up pattern of the mic itself. When you say the side mic has a figure 8 pattern, by that do you mean a bi-directional pattern, or what is technical pattern of the figure pattern? What pattern does the mid mic have?

At that point, we have already been set up for Doc Brown and know that hasn't been home for a while, plus he's stolen plutonium and is into time.

Back to the Future, Part I: The Beginning Scene (1985) [HD] - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xL74O4hsqE)

I forgot all about the opening to that movie. Love it.

Needed a break from Ryan. Maybe we can go back to talking about blue filters. What was the other thread... oh yeah it started of with star filter lol

Okay I think I have figured out the M/S concept based on the articles linked. What they are saying is, is that it's a bidirectional mic, with both mics point left and right of the sound source. And then a center mic is pointed at the sound source. Is this right?

Ryan, there is a whole other thread where they went over all of this stereo/mid side stuff exhaustively, and it wasnt that long ago. I am genuinely curious how you dont remember it.

Sorry, I have been packing in a lot of information lately and working a lot. I will go back to the other thread and review it. Sorry about that. But after reading the article again on how it works, I remember now. Two mics at the side, and one pointed at the sound source. I remember now. I can do that. I just need a bi-directional mic.

Sorry, I have been packing in a lot of information lately and working a lot. I will go back to the other thread and review it. Sorry about that. But after reading the article again on how it works, I remember now. Two mics at the side, and one pointed at the sound source. I remember now. I can do that. I just need a bi-directional mic.
A couple of posts ago you told me you're not interested in recording in stereo or surround sound, but here you go again.

There's nothing wrong with learning new things, but it's moot point because it's unnecessary for a low budget movie like yours.

To make an analogy you're novice baker who has never baked a cake, yet is interested in pipping techniques for icing.

I am interested in recording stereo if I got another mic for it, if it's worth it.

No Ryan. Only one mic for the side.however it’s a microphone that has a front and a back pickup. Quite common when ribbon mics were popular, i.e Beatles era on TV, long before that on radio. Then you change it’s placement so it fires left and right. The little ribbon is actually oriented forwards backwards, so a sound coming in from the left goes one polarity first, and sound arriving from the right produces the opposite polarity first, exactly what M/S needs.

Oh okay, thanks. I thought of a bi-directional mic as two mics, since it seems to be two mics in one, pointed at opposite ends. But yes, I see what you mean, one mic.

Buying a book or two on sound recording would really help you. They can be used as references, so when you forget the details of something you can look it up. They can be be used in non linear fashion. so you can quickly access the information..

Oh okay thanks. I did order the one recommended to me before, but I haven't read it yet since I have been reading some other filmmaking books lately, such as the Directing Actors one, also recommended. But I should do that, thanks.