Oh okay, I thought that a bad would cost more than a composer who could do it all virtually.

I didn't think the pan flute was cliche as I hardly ever hear it in movies.

As for trying to be creative and artistic,
I guess I just got to do the best I can...

I don't mean for my judgment to be the best, I am just trying to establish what is best, and why, which I guess what I asked.

The musical world is larger than movies, an instrument's place is larger than what you hear in film soundtracks. It brings all that "baggage" when you use it in a movie.

Being creative involves doing something that you haven't done before and possibly hasn't been done in a particular way by anybody else. Often it's someone's personal experiences that they've put into a production that resonates with the subject matter and so the audience.

No one here can advise on what is best for your film because we know nothing about it. The music is just one element that needs to work within the whole.

The snag is you wouldn't understand the 'why' - we've been trying to explain this for a very long time. You don't understand and want to very badly, but repeatedly demonstrate you don't have the artistic side at all. Your version of art is a collection of examples you have used to create rules that are faulty, and the need to cling to rules means you lose sight of what is creatively best. Film makers who are successful instinctively know these things. Many are totally non-technical and they surround themselves with technical folk who bring their vision to life. your solution to everything is to try to take control and basically interfere with everyone's role. You have shown that your ability in virtually every department as a technical operator is flawed. you've also demonstrated your creative roles - producer, director, DoP etc also have issues because you never, ever make decision on the spot. You post every decision on the net, and wait for people to make decisions for you, but then reject the good suggestions and use the one or two that corroborate your poorer one.

One day, a lightbulb moment will happen and you will make a decision for yourself, and it will be a great one and you will be so pleased you will burst.

Ask yourself a question. Why do you get creatives involved with your projects if you constantly tie their hands behind their backs and force them to do what you think is best?

Oh okay, I didn't think I was tying anyones hands though. I don't for example, the DP or actors or sound recordist found their hands tied. What did I do to tie their hands in the past?

You're discussing the composer here, not DPs or actors. Although, the same issue of discussing things comes up regarding the DP in other threads.

Oh okay, well I don't mean to be too controlling, I am just trying to acquire what I feel is best, using my own judgment, but I do welcome input from people as well. I just like having preliminaries ready to go, such as preliminary temp music ideas for the composer.

Unfortunately, you're not totally using your own judgment. The temp tracks will be finailsed during the editing, when you can judge if they're working,

With one of my shorts. we used as temp tracks the music I listened to while writing the script. Interestingly, in one piece, it wasn't just the instrument or the piece of music, it was how it was being played that was important. One of the funders asked for me to use the composer playing the same piece of music for the opening, instead of the music composed for the film. We agreed that the final selection would be made in the mixing suite.

The composer cleverly matched the emotions of the way the temp was being played in his composition and kept his playing of his version of the temp more neutral . We asked the dubbing mixer which he preferred and the answer was the composer's music. So the film had his music throughout.

Oh okay. Well I was advised to bring a composer on early on, but if I do, won't they be making decisions before the editing process then?

Also, I see what you mean about an instrument vs. the way it's being played I think. It's just that it's hard to find temp tracks that are exactly what I want so I will have to tell the composer, I like the rythym, it's just perhaps could use a different instrument for part of it, and I will suggest the instrument, but maybe the composer would come up with something better.

For example, one of my temp tracks I like the beat off, but the main instrument is a saxophone, and a sax sounds too sexual or too erotic, probably because it's a cliched instrument for being used for scenes like that in movies.

But I like the beat. This is why I thought, I want a similar beat but with the sax replaced with something else, if that is a sensible reason to replace it, as one example.

If you look hard enough you can always find suitable music.

Composer are commonly brought on late in the day, if they're your friend you can have chats with them.

There are cases where the composer is brought in before shooting starts, but unless it's a musical that not the usual way of working. Sergio Leone did it with Ennio Morricone, but I gather they went to school together, so there's ab old relationship.

Sax can sound sexual or erotic, or it can sound haunting or sad. It can also sound totally rhythmic. It's capable of being played in hundreds of ways. You're thinking cliche, hence why you have a pre-formed opinion of these things.

You are also getting very confused with temporary tracks - they are just unlinked mood music - better than silence and scene setting. They have little to do with the finished music, and it's rare they actually fit in a way that lets them be used.

For someone who has no money and is struggling with the basics, why on earth is he concerned with hiring a composer? It's all ridiculous but to be expected.

I can hire a composer. If temp tracks are not used for the composer to get ideas from, then what do you call the tracks you give them to get ideas from, or is there a term for that?

If there are no temp music tracks in the edit, you can only offer separate music recordings that can act as a guide for the type of music you're thinking of, These recordings can act as reference music for the composer.

Oh okay, well so far I have just been giving the composer examples, without actually editing them into the scenes. I could edit them into the scenes exactly, but if I recut the music pieces, then parts of them become butchered for the composer to use as examples, but as long as the composer still gets the idea.

No you can't! You cannot just plonk tracks into your movie and chop them up. It doesn't work. Ryan clearly you simply do not remotely understand music. Give your composer a steer. Tell them something needs to happen at X point, tell them you want a sunconsious theme for a character, or location, tell them a mood needs to change and then let the musician do musical stuff.

You're hopelessly confused about these jobs. you don't seem to realise the talented people will simply refuse to work with you if you keep this up. You are starting to sound like one of those directors who nobody wishes to be involved with.

Are people often unavailable when you ask them, and maybe this also explains why your actors keep becoming unavailable.

If you like your composers work, let him do it and stop trying to micromanage with no understanding of what they do.

Often temp tracks are there to give the editor something to edit against or for the producers and other people who are viewing the film before the final sound track music is in place, rather than the composer.

A competent composer is quite capable of picking up the rhythm of a scene, they are also inventive in creating any leitmotifs required for characters etc. They may also be able to add some of the emotion that the poor acting doesn't emote

You don't need to chop up the music. I made an 8mm film when I was 16 and when I projected it I had an LP that I played with it. The music matched the action so well that it began to Mickey Mouse in places and it worked all the way through the film. That was rather fortunate, but if you select appropriate music it's surprising how well it will work.

Is this all for your feature film project or a short film?

It would be both for the feature and the short I am planning, if that is what you are asking.

The only reason I suggested editing the music, is because it was suggested on here before, that I edit the music to the scene. But wouldn't that result in the music being chopped up? I was just taken the suggestion on here before, but was asking about if it would come off as chopped up if I edited the music down.

But I don't need to give the composer temp tracks in the scene in then, and should I just show him examples of what I would like seperately then, if that's better?

If you select the right piece of music and edit correctly, you shouldn't notice the changes. It's something that has been done for years on films, even those with a sound track composed for it. That's because things change.

There are techniques used during the days of editing on magnetic sound film. It was called tracking and was also done with library music, I expect it still goes on. except it's much easier doing it now on a DAW.. It's a skilled job.

You could do timing sheets, which have the timings of all the action and important dialogue down to a fraction of a second. This would assist the composer regarding key points.

Discuss with your composer what works for them,

Well the composer is allowing me to pick a lot of instruments so far, or at least asked which ones I would like so this has me thinking... Should I pick based on what instruments sound the best, or should I go with what I think will work within the universe of the movie, regardless, of how I feel about the sound? Or should it be both, and has to work within the universe of the movie, of course, but has to sound good to you as well...

For example in the movie Goldfinger, when Bond arrives on Goldfinger's Kentucky farm, they play a banjo. Now did the filmmakers like that instrument, or did they just say to themselves, well... Bond is in Kentucky now, so I guess that means we should use a banjo, even though we don't like it...

Or likewise, even though I thought about how I wanted the harmonica, I only wanted it to create a western feel. But I am not really a huge fan of it, and there is probably something that sounds better out there. So do I go by sound, or feeling I am trying to create, such as a Western feeling?

You work with the strangest people. Camera ops who ask you what framing you want, sound ops who want you to pick their equipment, lighting people who seem to be clueless as to how to light a scene, and now you have a composer who asks a no musical person to pick their instrumentation. Is Saskatoon inhabited entirely by people who are clueless?

You are using your movie cliche list again? If it was set in Australia it would be a digeredoo, or a sitar in India, or a duduk in Africa, a harmonica in cowboy country, bodrhan is ireland, bagpipes in Scotland, pan flutes in South America and strange pentatonic in scales in Asia. Busy music for cities, wild sweeping strings for deserts. College course first week caricature studies.

You are desperate to be involved in every part of the movie, even when you have no talent in that area? The next topic will be about your graphic designer who is creating the titles. What fonts should you let him use?

Seriously though Ryan, if you don't KNOW, and have to ask on a forum, why are you not asking the person skilled in the role HIS advice. If I got told to use certain instrumentation because that person had no idea and asked on a forum, I'd walk. Seriously, these people cannot be real if they let you, clearly a novice, set the rules they as a professional have to follow. I work with many musicians better than me, and I always defer to their judgement when I know it's better. I just cannot imagine musicians working this way.

Regarding Goldfinger, I suspect the banjo was John Barry's decision, rather than Guy Hamilton's. He has already used music to set up a location in the Miami sequence the film. He had used a similar technique to set up location in "From Russia With Love" and in "Zulu".

There are a number of instruments that could give a western feeling, so the choice isn't limited to the harmonica.

That's true, the choice is not limited to harmonica, but I guess my feelings are just telling me harmonica will sell it more than other instruments. However, if I am going by sounds I like, my brain tells me pan flute instead, because it sounds better. So do I make the decision based on what sounds I like, or what trying to create a genre feeling, regardless of sound, in this case western?

Use what serves the story, not which instrument you like better.

Again, you're following rules as to what fits in a particular genre. This tends to be more fashions at a particular time. You could put someone singing a song in, since that was the fashion during the 1950s and 60s in westerns, .

This is one of the best songs with Tex Ritter, there are some awful ones in westerns.

Do not forsake me, oh, my darling - Tex Ritter original soundtrack High Noon - YouTube

Oh okay. How do you know what instrument would fit though? For example, I watched the movie The Killer (1989) recently, and noticed they have a pan flute on the soundtrack a lot. I didn't think a pan flute would fit an action crime thriller set in modern times, but they go for it.

So how do you know what fits, especially when other filmmakers go for something more unique and original like that, that I have not heard in that genre, in any other movies?

If you can't tell when you hear it, you're in the wrong business. Learning that is part of the 10,000 hours and even then you could still be wrong.

It must fit emotionally with the character and the story. Here's the pan pipes with other instruments.

Ennio Morricone – Cockeye's Song (Once Upon A Time in America) - YouTube

What a coincidence I just thought of Once Upon A Time in America, and was going to mention it. Well I guess I can ask the composer to use whatever instrument sounds good then, as long as it fits... Some instruments are hard to get good samples for, so maybe it would be worth it find someone who can play it, or maybe that would cost too much more, but I can see...

Ir's not about what sounds good, but is it appropriate? They are Jewish gangsters in Once Upon a Time in America, so that adds an immigrate aspect to the story.

An instrument may sound good, however, if it doesn't add anything or detracts from the culture, the characters or the action you need to question why it's there.

I just don't get why you want to strangle the composer with a demand for a certain instrument when this might stifle a perfectly wonderful idea. You're too young to remember Gheorghe Zamfir - he did for pan pipes what your president is doing for mask manufacturers - confusing everyone.

Have a listen to Morricone's Once upon a time in the West - absolutely haunting and a female voice with no words but incredible 'aaaahing'. Contrast this with the signature theme/song from Blazing Saddles, which used every musical cliche possible - the instrumentation and even the accent of the voice - a caricature of 60s era westerns.

At the end of one of the Austin Powers movies, there was a piece of music recorded by Alan Parsons - for copyright reasons I had to re-record this for a project, but it's quite full of more subtle music 'clues' - it's called the time machine but is kind of a piece of music that's quite predictable. The Time Machine - YouTube

oh okay. I don't want to stifle the music of course I just thought that certain instruments would help bring out the feeling better what I was wanting the composer to do.

They will. The problem is you are not a musician.

Yep that is true, I was just trying to get the sound I was looking for based on the temp tracks I like.

Talk to the composer about this.

Ryan - if you were colour blind, would there be any point in selecting the colours for the costumes or set? You'd let somebody who you trusted look after them wouldn't you?

You insist on using industry titles for people's roles, but don't let them do that role - you dilute it by taking back partial control, and two people can never agree and really be happy. If you cannot help interfering in every decision, you will never grow.Would you ask the composer about camera angles, and would you ask the actors what aspect ratio would be best? Of course not - but you cannot resist it - you want control of every area and do not trust anyone. You want to be director but lack the talent, so you want a good director to allow you to co-direct, which we've told you many times never works. You are a medical student who wants his first operation to be heart surgery, not removing an ingrowing toe-nail.

Oh okay, I can let the composer do his job. I just want the music to sound like how I want it to sound as well, but don't most directors want the music to sound like how they want, or do they give the composer complete free reign and however it sounds, is however it sounds?

Ask yourself a question.

Will your likes and dislikes be appreciated by the viewing public? If you like Greek Bouzouki music will this be appreciated by others?

Most Directors who understand music and how it works would have a composer who shared the same ideas. You don't seem to be on the same planet sometimes? I suppose because you don't even trust yourself to make decisions, your abilities in this area are somewhat compromised?

Most feature film directors have discussions with the composer and leave them to it, they don't sit over their shoulder all the time as they compose. Surprise and accidents are all part of the creative process. However, it doesn't always work out, the original music for "Chinatown" was dropped and Jerry Goldsmith was brought in for new score.

The "Battle of Britain" film had a complex tale, with William Walton doing the score, that was rejected by the guys in charge of United Artists (not the director), John Barry was approached, but refused. The Ron Goodwin accepted the gig. although one of the producers was unhappy about the choice. In the released film Walton's music also gets used and if you buy a DVD in the UK you've a choice of musical score.

The music is something that does make directors nervous because they don't have control over it. Talk with your composer and make your suggestions, but don't micro manage because you'll stand a good chance of getting a poor soundtrack.

If you wish to have precise control use pre-recorded music, that won't change.

Oh yeah, I wasn't going to watch over them as they work. I just wanted to give them samples, and ask them ot use certain instruments in the samples, unless they had better ideas perhaps. I didn't think that was micromanaging though.

Engage an interior designer and then insist they use your colours, that they know are not going to work?

What we are saying Ryan is that you could say I would like to feature digeredoo, because I think it goes really well with this scene, and you supply them the rough cut and they think, it's a bit weird, the scene is about somebody abandoned in a deserted nuclear power station, but it fits so they write a great piece for the scene. Or, you have a scene where there is a great vista like scene featuring a lake, birds and the actor alone in a boat, but tell them you'd like to feature a bassoon. Not a horrible instrument, but honky and nasal. The composer could feature it but it removes so much opportunity.

If you think your ideas are guidelines, that the composer is free to disagree with and offer you alternatives that brilliant, but you before were telling them to use certain instruments, which might not be appropriate or easy to listen to. Do you think your musical skills are up to making good decisions, or are you on page 89 of your rule book. Movie=western. Western=harmonica or sensual/sexy=saxophone. Shower scene =violins.

Oh well, I was just going by what I thought sounded good for emotional purposes. The temp track I had in mind has a duduk in it for example, and I like the sound which is part of the reason why I think the temp track is effecetive. Or one of the reasons why I like another temp track is because a harmonica is in it, which I thought was efffective.

I didn't think the duduk and harmonica were not easy to listen to. I was just going by what I thought would sound best. But I was going by what inspired me in movies before. Unless going by inspiration from other movies is not good?

You're not good with inspiration, you seem to want to copy. Taking little bits from movies and using them as templates. You have, in these topics, come up with so many examples from movies that I've never seen, and often never heard of, and then used these as examples. I've no idea how somebody of your age has seen and remembered so many movies! You've also got a movie history going back years before you were born. A massive collection of hundreds of styles and genres. You are having trouble assembling them into a cohesive movie. You pick a camera move from one, lighting from others and music from others and expect it to suddenly congeal into a nice to experience movie. It doesn't work like this.

Go to YouTube and look up guy michelmore a musician who composes, I think I've mentioned him before, and watch him compose. See how he writes music, and how he chooses sounds. Watch how he builds the content to match the brief. Watch him decide no sound fits so he creates one from a strange noise. See how he builds tension and create mood.

You don't understand how the process works, so your opinions on emotion are built on very shaky foundations, which cannot sometimes support your needs. Rule books built on cliches just don't work!

I suppose I too have rules, but mine are divided into so many degrees that change by circumstance, I just think they're not actually rules at all, just suggestions for direction.

Oh okay, but is using a combination of what I think is the best inspiration from different movies wrong? Also, if I use inspiration from movies, that you have never heard of, is that a bad thing? Or what movies are we talking about here, that you haven't seen?

Plus is using template music from other scores, bad? I thoiught it would help give the composer an idea, unless we should come up with original music, with no templates to get any ideas from?

The thing is that everything you do seem to have bits of movies as a template..

Sure people use them as a short hand as a starting point for some shots or idea, there's nothing new in that, painters have done it for hundreds of years. The reclining nude woman (Venus) has been much used, although, I suspect, there are only a handful of pictures which have made full use of it, so that the painting does more than titillate

The issue here is that you seem to be so locked into the reference and then asking if it's OK. It works in the context of the original film and possibly it will work in your film, but we don't know if you've got the resources to do it or much about your film and how it fits in..

Almost, certainly it will take longer than your 1 page every 30 minutes work rate. I was watching a documentary interviewing directors from the studio days in Hollywood and they were doing 2 pages a day.

If you're using a composer, why are you expecting them not to come up with something original? You can use a musical reference, but that's the kicking off point. You appear to be getting into the trap of falling in love with the temp tracks. There are a number of films which ended up with the temp tracks in the soundtrack, the best known being 2001.

I want to say thank you to Ryan - I needed a piece of music for a production I'm putting together and suddenly realised that Once Upon A Time In America will fit perfectly - with the damn pan pipe. Had it not been for this topic, I'd have never made the link. I've got to get rid of the panpipe of course and replace it with something else - but some other kind of woodwind will be better!

Oh okay, well if I were to do 2 pages a day it would be like a 50 day shoot for a feature for example. I talked to the professor from my film school and he says on my budget I should be aiming for 10 pages a day, unless he is incorrect on that?

I see what you mean about making original music and not wanting to rip off the track. But I don't want the composer to do something so different that it's not at all what I want either though of course.

Here is one of the template tracks I have in mind for example:

Scorpio Takes the Bait - YouTube

One of the instruments is a flute, which makes that unique sound. So I do want a similar sound effect, but it doesn't have to be the same type of flute. Just some kind of flute, which would produce something similar but perhaps much more different or more original as well.

But is telling the composer I want a somewhat similar type track, with a flute that can make that kind of sound, micromanaging?

Some how you don't seem to think logically, I was giving an example of the shooting rate on a Hollywood feature film. that doesn't mean that you need to use that, although on a complex day on a key scene you may need to. After all, Hitchcock spent a week of a 4 week shoot filming the shower scene.

How correct your professor is depends on how well you manage to talk your cast and crew into working on a longer schedule. I wouldn't use it as an absolute figure,,getting that number of pages involves 12 to 14 hour days. You attempting it by shooting 10 pages in 5 hours will mean that you'll always be at the same level and you won't progress.

Regarding music "The Incredibles" director wanted the brass sound associated with John Barry and the Bond films. They used music from "On Her Majesties Secret Service" in the trailer.

The Incredibles (2004) Trailer #1 | Movieclips Classic Trailers - YouTube

However Barry turned it down, so the director selected Michael Giacchino, who.knowing what he wanted went for a similar brass sound. He even recorded it using analogue recorders to get the same feel,

incredibles theme song - YouTube

Ryan, I don't know why you keep going around in circles, this is a simple conversation with your composer. It shouldn't involve needless pages in a forum.

Yes, you are right, sorry, I will ask the composer.

Well as for how long it would take a two shoot for a day, for example, one scene I have is four pages about. I was thinking I could shoot it in two shots. So if I have two cameras, and do 10 takes, that may add up to only an hour of actual time the cameras are rolling. So that scene would probably save time for example then, if I do two cameras and only two shots, but should the shoot be longer?

Work out the maths for yourself.

This is all how long is a piece of string? Every scene is different, so no one can give you answer without knowing the content of the scenes.

Yeah, I am just worried if I only do two shots only, will that come off as lazy to viewers. Or maybe they will not notice as long as it's good.

Given that some films have scenes that only have a single shot, I don't see your logic.

Shoot scenes the way that they need to be filmed in order to tell the story in the best manner. This could be in a single shot or fifty shots, the only person who knows is the director, since they're the one telling it.

You're asking questions only the director can answer, because no one here knows anything about your film or the content of the scenes..

Do you really think the public actually notice how many shots you use per scene? They notice the story, and only consider the mechanics when the story is rubbish and their minds wander from the subject matter.