I don't want to be too hard on Ryan even though it seems like he is unaffected by 99% of what we say.

I only watched 3 minutes of this recent movie and but I didn't notice any improvement from his previous one, Time Wine. In that movie, I remember the acting was flat, the dialog was terrible, and the lighting/colorgrading wasn't good, the cuts were abrupt and jarring. All of those faults seemed to have been repeated. Without knowing I'd be hard pressed to say which movie came first. Does anyone else see any progress or am I being overly critical?

Considering Ryan's responsibilities how would you rate them ?
Director: Casting the actors and getting the best performance out of them, shot selection, over all look, monitoring and approving of what was recorded before wrapping a scene,...)
Script writer: the dialog
Editor: the cuts
Color grader: did he grade it?

I think he tries to do everything because he doesn't trust other people - but his real problem is that he asks everyone under the sun for opinions, and he takes every bit of advice, no matter how ridiculous or simply wrong, as gospel - then pops up here and says "I've been told......" without ever considering the reasons why people tell him these crazy things. He doesn't have the courage to trust his own judgement. He has to learn this before anything else really, or it's not evolution, it's stagnation.

I've tried to explain that you need the courage to believe in your abilities but I don't think he gets it. negatives are so common he simply dismisses them and grasps the remainder.

Im still going with his brain is simply not wired like most peoples’ and therefore things that are patently obvious or simple to you or me are not to him. Really the root of all of this.

On a more positive note. Paul I just watched that opening for the movie you posted . I was impressed, nice job on the music too bad it never got produced. It's nice to watch something I could actually enjoy.

Thanks for the compliment - Yes it was a shame - really a case of the promised funding evaporating. I knocked that title sequence up with the intention of convincing the sponsor. In a way it was perhaps good that it didn't get off the ground because the business has virtually shut down now, making the staff redundant. They don't/didn't have any connection with the movie industry but I'd produced some business videos for them and the MD was very keen and wanted to stick a bit of money into the project, but looking back now, it would probably have gone wrong. There are a quite a few of the old music tracks on YouTube - slow ones fast ones, the oldest I think going back to the late 90s.

https://youtu.be/tjvLDMGxq10?list=OLAK5uy_krTm-YZqImPb2hh9bJgGvQajrUjWGZ3mk

You over cut during dialogue.

The 30 mins a page is a real limitation on the quality of your films. Don't use locations that you can't access for long enough to shoot the scenes. 10 to 12 hours is pretty standard for a day's filming. That will be even more vital if you plan to make a feature film in a week, when 14 hour or longer days is extremely likely.

Oh okay, it's just that the locations I have access too, as well as the actors do not have that much time, unless I ask them to take sick days in their day jobs. By shooting a page every 30 minutes, I was able to get everything done in under 8 hour days, and everyone was happy. But is it possible to still do 30 minutes a page, if I can have everyone well rehearsed for the shoot days? Another thing I can do is, if I choose not to have much coverage, perhaps that will give me more time to work on the performances, and still keep it at 30 minutes per page, because there is less shots to do if there is less coverage. But would more rehearsal time still help shoot faster on the shoot days or no?

But also, if a regular shoot day is 10-12 hours, how many pages would that be usually? My film school professor for example, told me I should aim to shoot 10 pages a day on my budgets, but is that too many?

Also, I wouldn't say I am 99% unaffected from what I have been told. I feel I am taking everything in, it's just there are some complications in the advice I have to work around here or there, but I thought I was taking everything in.

Unfortunately, I suspect the quality of your films won't improve because of the time limitations you're imposing because you don't have the experienced actors or crew to shoot at that speed. Even if you rehearse the actors, the chances are you'll still need to fine tune the performances on the shoot day, which will take up time. That's assuming you want much better acting in future productions.

The maths is simple, you roughly shoot a page every hour with a 10 to 12 hour day, which is probably what your professor has in mind, because that's a normal filming day.

Unfortunately, you don't appear to be taking everything in, because it appears to be going around in circles.

If you're limited in the number of hours you can film in a day, the answer is to film on more days. It's all about man hours,

Oh okay, it's just that I film on more days, I am worried about the lighting changing if I have to come back to a location since that has happened before, and was wanting to avoid that.

Well I would like more hours at a location and for the actors to have more time outside of their day jobs, but you how do other fimmakers turn a no into a yes? Especially since in the past, location owners have cut down the time by surprise on the shoot day, because something came up and that has happened to me three times, now, so how can I stop them from doing that? I even had one location owner sign a contract, but the cut us short and didn't care about the contract because of something that came up that day. I'm just not sure how to prevent them from changing their minds adimately.

It's that I refuse to shoot for 10 hours, I have planned shoots for that long, but someone often pulls the plug after a few hours, whether it be a location owner, or a cast or crew member that has an emergency come up. I am fully willing to, but when those surprises come up, what do you do?

Ryan why do you think it costs millions of dollars to produce feature films? Film making is labor intensive. It's naive to expect the same reliability and dedication of amateurs who have day jobs. It's like you have to learn in slow motion first hand for yourself all the reasons why it's hard to make a movie.

Not bite off more than you can chew.
(in reply to #208)

There is a local filmmaker who has a day job as a District Attorney in the next county over, which I imagine keeps him pretty busy. But he likes Westerns and tries to produce one short film a year. He either writes the scripts himself or adapts them from existing novels and short stories. He has a standing company of collaborators and actors, all of whom also have real jobs, and some people come and go from this group each year. What he does is to convince everyone to take their annual vacations at the same time. They all load up in a couple of RVs and head to Colorado, Montana or Arizona where he has pre-arranged with some property owners to use their locations. Nobody gets paid, but they work at a relaxed pace for a couple of weeks shooting the movie, do some sightseeing, eat in local restaurants and stay in decent hotels. The director pays for their meals, lodging and transportation. Everyone thinks they had a great Western vacation at minimal expense, and they have a surprisingly decent little movie to show as a memento of their trip.

His productions started out somewhat amateurish some 30 years ago, but as time has gone by, the director, actors and all his technical crew have gained experience and proficiency, and the quality has improved to the point they could be mistaken for, say, 1960s quality 30 minute TV episodes at first glance.

This is strictly a hobby for him, but I have no doubt that some of the people involved have put it on their resumes and used the experience to get other minor-league acting and production jobs.

Perhaps Ryan could adopt a similar model. Forming long term relationships with the rest of the team seems to be the key element, and doing it over an extended vacation period makes the logistics work.

Oh okay, I didn't think that people would want to make a movie during their persona vacation time, but I could ask and see.

Amateur film making and theatre groups have people who spend huge amounts of time because it's fun and they really enjoy it. Your people say yes, then seem to dig their heels in when things go wrong. If they are doing it for free, you, like that example above, need to make the experience pleasant and something they want to repeat. Those people in cowboy country spending their vacation are doing it for fun. If everyone is there because you've pressganged them you will get the problems you do. They say yes until something better comes along. We find it so hard to try to convince you about things here, do your people get equally frustrated with you? Have you considered if you are nice to work for? I find it hard to believe you lose people during shoots or lose the locations? Why is this happening? You MUST sort this out because it is NOT normal for amateur productions. My observation on amateur groups is they work and work till the director calls pub time, then they all move to the pub as one group. Your team just don't seem to be like this?

People will put in the hours if they believe what they're doing is of reasonable quality and they're getting a good social day from a group activity.

I can only recall being asked to leave a location once and that's because the production team probably misinformed the owner of the shop about how long it was going to take and what was involved. At most locations they know we would be filming for a full day and we would be bringing in a lighting rig.

Shooting at high speed, isn't a pleasurable experience for anyone involved, even on a professional production, so could be a reason for your drop out rate That's because there's no sense of I want to be there because everything is being compromised. The camera people also get pissed off because they can't do their lighting properly (even though their resources may be limited.)

I have this vision of the location owner meeting Ryan and thinking "he seems like a good ol' chap." And then on the shoot day, the owner is still there, and starts hearing lots of screaming and stabbing and shooting and cursing and simulated sexual assault and after a few hours of that, they're like "nah, eff this, YOU GUYS ARE OUTTA HERE!!!"

My daughter (jnr high school age) once roped off an aisle in a local supermarket to shoot a sequence. The owner (total stranger) appeared and she told him he couldn't interfere, they were filming. "But you don't have permission and it's my shop" he said. She told him just to wait, and he did. Not recommended anyone tries to do it this way, pretty sure if you ask a local store they'll make a time available, won't work for big chains, you need a concealed camera..

Ryan, starting from scratch, here's how it works:

1. You identify a local film festival that you want to enter - often this sets a theme.
2. You advertise for anyone interested in helping with an entry, especially the local theatre group.
3. You arrange a preprod conference at a convenient venue, e.g room at local community centre for the 8-10 people who responded.
4. Everyone discusses who what why where when
5. You write the script within the people resources and develop a schedule
6. You do the shoot and wrap: you just have to provide some of the equipment (always someone with a better camera than yours anxious to use it) snacks, pizza and drinks
7. Cut the film (unless someone else wants to do it) and enter the festival.
8. Don't get upset if the organiser's partner whose film is much worse than yours wins. Even if you do win, something, it's rare for prizes to cover the cost of the pizza.
For this comparatively small investment, you made a film. You got to wear a special pass at the festival. You learned a lot. You met people keen to make more films, enter regional and national festivals - maybe, just maybe maybe, help you make your feature.

LOL Only a junior high school girl could get away with that. She obliviously has a future as an AD or a steward at rock concerts.

Oh okay, in my experience the people are happy to put in the time, it's just something unexpected in their lives comes up that day that they have to deal with. But I can try those approaches and hope to get longer amounts of time from everyone.

Plus I can also try to do less coverage as well if that helps, if I do not need as much coverage as some say, if this will help save time to, because then if the actors have to do more takes, at least they do not have to do more takes on more shots, if that will help.

Don't do more coverage than you need, however, it still comes down to you trying to shoot faster than you, the cast and crew have the resources or experience to shoot. Sure you can shoot fast, but if it's of poor quality, it becomes wasted time in the long run because you're not improving.

It sounds like some of them are creating excuses not to go filming. If it's common, there's possibly something going on in their lives, which makes them unreliable. Insecurities and a drink problem are some that I had with an actor, fortunately, when we had a larger cast and crew his reliability improved.

Spending time at rehearsals should provide some measure of bonding, so possibly making it less likely that they'll drop out on the day.

Ryan at this level of movie making you're not hiring professional actors being properly compensated to endure long hours on location, to show up and perform on cue with very few takes.

These people have other obligations. They're doing it for the fun. If it becomes unpleasant drudgery and they're not passionate and involved in the creative process you will lose them and they'll not go the extra mile. Creating a fun and exciting environment falls on you. The primary role of a director is working with people bringing out their best performance. Acting isn't about reading lines, it's about becoming the character. Your cast and crew want someone they trust, respect, who can lead them to achieve a result they can be proud of. Based on the performances I'm seeing you're not spending enough time and energy on that aspect. Again your priorities are most likely askew and you're focused too much on yourself and your movie instead of thinking about everyone else.

Oh ok, but if you say the audience doesn't need to see everything though, and I can just imply, then why is there an exception when it comes to needing a shot of the. cuffs? Why is it an essential prop when everyone knows what it is without needing to see it?

Saying that I need a shot of cuffs seems to contradict that. So where does not needing to see something begin and where does it end?
Just catching up with some posts. eBay can fix the handcuff problem.
Cheap and easy:
Next problem.

Ryan at this level of movie making you're not hiring professional actors being properly compensated to endure long hours on location, to show up and perform on cue with very few takes.

These people have other obligations. They're doing it for the fun. If it becomes unpleasant drudgery and they're not passionate and involved in the creative process you will lose them and they'll not go the extra mile. Creating a fun and exciting environment falls on you. The primary role of a director is working with people bringing out their best performance. Acting isn't about reading lines, it's about becoming the character. Your cast and crew want someone they trust, respect, who can lead them to achieve a result they can be proud of. Based on the performances I'm seeing you're not spending enough time and energy on that aspect. Again your priorities are most likely askew and you're focused too much on yourself and your movie instead of thinking about everyone else.

Oh okay. Well if they are doing it for fun, perhaps it doesn't become fun if you ask them to work 10 hours on a scene maybe? It's just in the past, I would ask people to go longer, and they didn't like it, or said that they couldn't, where as if I tried to keep it under 8 hours, everyone seemed to have more fun.

So what you are saying makes sense. But if everyone is just doing it for fun, and I shouldn't go longer if it's a zero budget project, how do I turn out better performances, if I don't take longer then? If I need to take more time, how do I do it but at the same time, so it doesn't become un-fun for everyone?

If you know you’re planning longer days you tell them UP FRONT. real actors are used to it; for amateurs it may be a nasty surprise so if youre using non-pros tell them before they agree that you may be looking at 10-12 (or whatever) hour days. My experience is amateurs have no idea of the time and effort it takes to make a film so you have to spell this stuff out for them explicitly, otherwise they assume theyll be in and out of there in an hour and a half or something.

I was involved in a series of short films made by a local screen writing group, they weren't made by professionals, although the odd one helped out. Each was shot over 2 days with roughly 10 to 12 hour days, which is roughly hat you'd expect, usually over a weekend. The cast were mixed with some professionals working for free,

There was no problem with the length of the days, The standard was way above any of Ryan's films.

If you're working 8 hour days, add another day onto the schedule, you're not paying people, so the budget aspect doesn't apply so much.

Oh okay. Well what if it's a situation like before where I am scheduled at a location for 8 hours, but then about an hour after we setting up, the location owner comes and tells us bad news, that he have to shoot the scene in two hours and be out of there, or something of that sort. How do you deal with location owners changing their minds because something comes up, if the plan was for a whole day originally?

thats BS and shouldnt happen

That's true. But if it does happen, on the shoot day, what do you do?

get fuming mad, do what you have to, and never trust that person again

Yeah I mean I got frustrated about it, but still shot the scene in only about an hour and a half and then packed it all up. So I guess it should all work out as long as no one changes their minds hopefully.

"If I were the man I was five years ago, I'd take a... FLAMETHROWER to this place!"

I guess next time I will really be adimant that they cannot cancel on the shoot day and hope that helps.

But another thing that concerns is it was said before that the camera I used looks like 16mm, so I was wondering, should I use a different camera then?

Why should the camera matter? I assume the location owner knew you were making what was an "amateur" film and not a professional production. If it was the latter he'd be paid location fees for the use of the premises.

Location owners tend to be hold their word, especially on the day of the shoot. It usually only breaks down if they've been misinformed about something

So Ryan how much did you pay for use of the location?

Yeah. This should be obvious but if you go through a professional location manager they can find you legit places to shoot that will not pull this crap. Of course that will cost you substantial money (no i dont know how much), first for the location manager and then for the location itself. But basically youre choices are a) ONLY shoot in places you KNOW you wont get jerked around on...your house, trusted friend’s house, etc. b) pay the appropriate folks as i just described or c) risk this happening again and again

I didn't pay anything for the location because I thought I would make a zero budget short. But I was advised to make zero budget shorts on here before, but maybe that will cause things to go wrong more likely, if they are not being paid?

You don't usually pay for locations on those types of films. It's also unusual for owners to ask you to leave after 2 hours on the day, when you've agreed 8 hours.

These time issues (plus no shows) seem to be a common feature on your films. Either it's part of the culture where you live or there's an aspect of your approach to things that is causing these issues to arise.

Remember - Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance - usually this sort of thing is because location owners expect two or three people, and you turn up with lots, plenty of vehicles, lights, cables, demand power not asked for, and prevent them functioning. Remember that they are NOT movie people, so they may be expecting a small camera and a few people and get a huge disruption. If you explain that you need 8 hours, need parking for 6 vehicles, and will be running many cables, you can also ask if they have any special safety issues tha they need you to cover - like trip hazards, hot items etc etc etc. Getting a location involves a lot more correspondence than just calling on the phone. There may be no charge, but they need to know what will be happening on THEIR property. If you don't tell them, there can be huge issues through no fault of anyone's. I do lots of stuff now in churches, and it's always best to explain about flightcases, cables, lights and attaching things to their building. I have a non-damaging system now for flying microphones above the heads of the performers. They then usually let me string the catenary. Turning up on the day with a ladder just gets a blanket NO! There are two routes for locations.

NEVER ask in advance and apologising afterwards is better than risking refusal in advance - as in do what you know they won't like and if they notice say sorry, or.....

ALWAYS ask in advance and have good arguments and solutions for the questions you know will be generated. You never apologise for upsetting them, because you haven't!

Oh okay, I showed up with three crew members and two actors, for that location. I think his reason for canceling had to do with some unexpected business related thing to him that snuck up on him. We didn't have a whole lot of equipment aside from a small light kit, camera, tripod, cables, audio equipment... I thought it was overall pretty small.

We parked on the street so parking didn't interfere with his building, I don't think.

When it comes to the actors though, in the past short films, a few of them I felt were not the best casted, but I went with them anyway, in the auditions because I really wanted to get a movie in can.

So perhaps from now on, if I don't have a good feeling about the auditions then do not go for it?

If you're dealing with a business, unless it's an area that doesn't get used is the location, shooting over the weekend or on a day when they're closed is usually the best policy.

Given that your acting pool seems very limited, you may get stuck with the cast. Allowing extra time during the filming day allows the possibly of getting the best out of your cast. However, you do need to get involved with coaching and directing performance out of them. It's a proactive process.

I have a non-damaging system now for flying microphones above the heads of the performers.

Paul, I'd like some information about this, if you care to share it.

Thanks!

It clicked one day in a theatre. I use purple poly strops for dangling heavy items from steel beams and realised they’re ideal for going around the usual pillars we get in our old churches with lots of these supporting the arches and other overhead features. They usually have a proper top on which the timber or masonry sits and these strips can go around and be choked easily then with a normal shackle you can send 3mm cable across to the other side. First time I cut the cable and used the normal cable clamps but later I thread the 3mm cable through the shackle and drop it down and hang some sand bags on it at ground level. This easily puts tension on and the mic cables are taped to the catenary. The soft strops leave no marks even on old brickwork or plaster.

you should post pictures, because when you say strop I'm imagining I'm at the barbershop getting a shave

Maybe you have different architecture. Around here I either get residential smooth walls and ceiling with no beams or modern offices with large open spaces and nothing structural to latch on to. It would seem to me a few c-stands would do what's needed quicker and more safely. But I'm still curious.

Paul, that's a clever idea to use what I would call a sling (a loop of flat woven polyester) around the supporting pillars in a church. Unfortunately the churches I'm thinking of don't have free-standing pillars in front of the nave; the transcept and chancel are one big open area). No pillars over the chancel or choir (those supports are part of the wall), so not a solution for micing the choir (or preachers).

However it would be a good solution for micing the pipe organ, assuming there are pillars at a distance where there's a good direct / reverberant mix.

I presume you do need a ladder to attach the slings to the pillars. So for recording in an unoccupied church, light stands might be simpler. But for recording in an occupied space, and keeping the mics out of the way, that's a great technique.

Yes, a few photos would be nice, if you have any handy.

If you're dealing with a business, unless it's an area that doesn't get used is the location, shooting over the weekend or on a day when they're closed is usually the best policy.

Given that your acting pool seems very limited, you may get stuck with the cast. Allowing extra time during the filming day allows the possibly of getting the best out of your cast. However, you do need to get involved with coaching and directing performance out of them. It's a proactive process.

Oh okay, well I did use the location on the weekend, but they still needed to cut it short for some reason. But I can still use locations over the weekends.

I can bring in actors from other cities too, if I have to. I just need more options I think.

you need to find out their specific reason for screwing you. if you can remember any of them from past incidents, tells us and we might be able to tell you if it sounds like a bs excuse to get rid of you

I really cannot remember the specific excuse. It had something to do with the business and his wife, but I do not remember the specifics at all. One time someone I know let me use their house but then I find out on the shoot day, the power had been cut because they were being evicted, they had found out, so that's one I remember.

Uh, WOW.

did you try to verify that or just take them at their word?

Ryan and the amateur movie "business". He has a long road ahead of him. Lesson 589,999 even free things have a price. l can only imagine all things that go over his head. If he only knew what he didn't know. Although they say ignorance is bliss.

Uh, WOW.

did you try to verify that or just take them at their word?

Well I only had a limited amount of time to shoot before the power went out completely, so I figured I should use that time to shoot, rather than verify if it's true, thus if it is, I would have spent that time on investigating, and keeping the cast and crew waiting, instead of shooting.

Oh I see. I thought you meant the location owner/renter cancelled on you completely with that as the excuse. So did you witness the power actually going out then?