I often worry that so many of the things we do get analysed and then somebody produces the cunning plan guaranteed to work, by studying multiple successful products - not just scripts. You see a great movie. It really has an impact, so you break it down and discover three sections - Brian's example a great one. You then discover the same format in another of your favourites. The rule becomes solid and unbreakable, and the logical conclusion being that any script, if it fits the rules, must be a great one. Sometimes rules just fit, but the rule is just a fluke. Something products natural seem to fall into. Designing script content to fit the rules is futile, because you will create padding and cut decent content to make it fit - which is a backwards step.

I know you need rigid parameters to work in - but creative people design their work for others, not themselves. Story telling is a mystic art. Some people instinctively are great story tellers. Others simply suck. Some songwriters cannot do lyrics, so don't. Some do both, and do. Andrew Lloyd Webber and Elton John spring to mind - like the Gershwins. I firmly believe trying to develop skills you simply don't have, or have poor ones is futile. I have managed to get to my age by being able to do lots of things competently, but not brilliantly. Competently enough to get paid. My list of things I wanted to do, but have failed miserably at is thankfully short.
I cannot:
1. Dance
2. Fly aircraft
3. Play the drums properly
4. Play brass instruments and finally
4. Write scripts

Oddly - I know exactly how to do these things. I understand the language, the technicalities, have had the opportunities to do all of them multiple times. I can even give presentations on these subjects, I know them so well. However - my brain does not let me do them to any kind of standard. I've written a rotten script and it's been produced. Looking back, it really was dreadful, and only got produced because it fitted the pre-contracted cast as a last resort. I have no idea how many sections there were and only my friends were honest enough to tell me how dire it was ....... afterwards!

If your script is good, and everyone has confidence in it - then it is fine. Who cares how many chunks? You have to stop, if you can, working by wrote. For you, it doesn't help.

Of course, understanding structures don't mean you can write a story. If that were the case, a lot more people would be writing great scripts. I know someone who gleefully told me that he'd learnt the secret of script writing on a course - the 3 act structure. However, in asking further he didn't seem to know what a story was.

BTW I suspect he did because he told tell stories about things that happened at work etc. but he didn't seem to understand story as a concept.

Since Robert McKee got mentioned earlier, here are some of his thoughts.

"Story is about principles, not rules."

"Story is about eternal. universal forms, not formulas."

"Story is about archetypes, not stereotypes."

"Story is about thoroughness, not shortcuts."

"Story is about the realities, not the mysteries of writing."

"Story is about mastering the art, not second guessing the marketplace,".

"Story is about respect, not disdain, for the audience."

"Story is about originality. not duplication,".

Unfortunately, knowing all these things doesn't mean that you can write a good story.

A 3 act structure has a mid point in the middle of the 2nd act (called in the mid point climax in Hollywood), if you don't have that you risk having a "sag" in the middle and the film feeling too long. You can call the bit before the mid point Act 2a and after Act 2b, but it's still the classic 3 act structure. Breaking Story: The Six Major Beats | Screenwriter-to-Screenwriter.com (http://www.screenwriter-to-screenwriter.com/2009/07/breaking-story-the-six-major-beats/)

It's basically get boy into a tree, throw rocks at the boy in the tree, get boy out of the tree.

Oh okay, according to that beat chart, I would say the script follows all of those, for sure. So I guess it is a 3 act structure then, yes.

Are you going to be happy looking back when you’re old at all the years spent talking?

Ryan will never grow old. Ryan is Peter Pan.

And are we going to be happy looking back at all the years we spent talking to Ryan? ("in one ear and out the other" as my father used to say)

When I first started to try to help Ryan, I was on the way up, now, I'm considering what retirement will be like, and in the years I was an educator, Ryan is probably my only lost cause. I really thought that collectively we could have moved him forward, but frankly - his position has remained constant, and he's stagnating not progressing and simply lacks the courage to do much in this industry. An eternal planner and reluctant doer.

Very often my failure is the lack of really detailed planning, but enough experience to deal with the consequences. Ryan plans the hell out of everything even if it takes ten years, and no progress.

Ryan's meandering questions remind me of the pantomime song that goes "There's a hole in my bucket dear Lisa..............". Or, for our American friends who maybe won't know the song, Catch-22.

When I first started to try to help Ryan, I was on the way up, now, I'm considering what retirement will be like, and in the years I was an educator, Ryan is probably my only lost cause. I really thought that collectively we could have moved him forward, but frankly - his position has remained constant, and he's stagnating not progressing and simply lacks the courage to do much in this industry. An eternal planner and reluctant doer.

Very often my failure is the lack of really detailed planning, but enough experience to deal with the consequences. Ryan plans the hell out of everything even if it takes ten years, and no progress.

I swear these threads have only been going on since 2019 or mid 2018. Has your career trajectory really been that short?

I swear these threads have only been going on since 2019 or mid 2018. Has your career trajectory really been that short?
I feel like Paul's story could be improved if it was retold to include three acts. Adding a mid point climax to the second act. See these talks haven't been a complete waste. Some of the knowledge intended for Ryan inadvertently rubbed off on me. ;-)

At this stage I'm chef Ramsay. "Really!, Really! My gran could do better! And she’s dead!" I feel like grabbing his camera away from him and telling him to Piss off while I make his movie for him. But instead I grimace and fight the urge to say anything.

Remember his previous incarnations have been going quite a long time - not quite 10 years, but moving that way. He was shooting on DV back then.
He joined one forum in 2014 - ten years was perhaps a good memory test that I failed - it just SEEMS like 10 years.

I guess thought you’d only been conversing with him on here.

In fairness to Paul, Ryan has a Peter Pan dream like quality. He is neither bound by time or reason. He has been randomly asking every conceivable cinematic question with no real tangible progress for what seems to be an eternity and has been doing this for even longer on other forums. Honestly it boggles my mind trying to imagine the time span of this one movie.

He says its been about 4 years

He says its been about 4 years
That's only half true because I believe he started it at least 10 years ago. The amount of time is only one aspect. If he had a decent script after 4 years that would be great....

I think we're edging our way into deleted post territory.

Actually when it comes to covid I just helped out on a movie shoot where none of the actors had to social distance or where masks, especially since it was a thriller that involved fight scenes, and I am helping out on another one now, where covid doesn't seem to be an issue.

Are filmmakers just saying screw it, and doing it anyway?

Low budget non-union jobs are going to be what everyone feels comfortable with. Where as anything formal will need to adhere strictly to local rules to protect against lawsuits.

Only the bottom feeders will be saying screw it, the others will be using the industry guidelines.

Some productions are managing it by creating bubbles, where cast and crew are isolated the same way as some sports are doing or working in counties which currently have no Covid or extremely low Convid like New Zealand or Iceland.

They may also be running tests to check people are Covid free.

Oh okay well no one ran any checks on me prior, but I guess so far they are just shooting complete guerilla style.

People are doing all sorts of things, guerilla style won't protect if there's an asymptomatic person in the cast or crew. Risks will increase as people move indoors and gather closer together.

It sounds like you're there at your own risk.

Guerrilla planning, or rather, no planning.

I thought you were a serious film maker - you just took part in a production without any thought to your own, or other people's safety, yet you fret about how many pages there are in a script. Come on Ryan - you let one set of rules screw you into the ground with worry and concern about adhering to unwritten rules, and then on the other hand totally reject rules, laws, Government advice and plain old common sense.

That, my friend, is unacceptable practice. Not following the 180 degree rule, or having too many acts does not kill you, or those with you. I don't get cross about many things, but Covid killed my mum in April - and I'm left with the question the fully protected ambulance crew asked the carer who called 999 - "where's your PPE?" and she told them she didn't have any, and had been to a number of elderly people every day, totally unprotected. I have little patience with people who do not take it seriously - you could make somebody else's mother die. How does that sit with you?

Oh well I am so sorry to hear that about your mother. My condolences.

Well I do have a regular day job though, and I do things such as go shopping for groceries when I have to. So I thought that making the movie was actually less risk as working my job or doing grocery shopping, especially since the stores have more people in than compared to the movie set. I finished shooting on one, but I can not do it then, if that's best.

My condolences on the death of your mother Paul.

You really need to consider the people you may pass it onto when dealing with Coviid. It's not just the numbers, but the amount of time you're spending with people that increases the chances of infection. Quickly passing someone isn't the same as spending 15 minutes them.

Amen. Ryan, I think most sensible people these days arent going anywhere or doing anything they dont absolutely have to, if it involves being around other people. That would include unpaid or (probably) low paid indie movie sets where precautions arent taken. Let me put it another way; it is likely that NO ONE here or on any of the forums where you post would be willing to do what youre doing (hanging out on unsafe indie sets). Doesnt that tell you something?

I'm not as cautious as most here. If you have a low level in your area, you're wearing a mask, and keeping 6ft form others then I would think its ok since you're young. But you would be increasing your risk and if you have older family members that you visit or live with you're putting them at risk. There are a lot of variables but one thing for sure you can easily get comfortable and the next thing you're doing is not wearing a mask, then getting close to people, sharing rides etc. It's hard to quantify the amount of risk or appreciate something you can't see. The more time you spend with larger groups, indoor confined spaces, and they're using unsafe practices... There's a lot of sensible advice being given that I can't dispute.

Oh okay well I was wearing masks and trying to not to get too close to people on the sets, so I didn't think I was being irrensponsible. However, I was acting in it, and I did have to take off the mask for the acting though of course.

There are good procedures outlined in the film and TV industry guides. However, I suspect the people making these films are unaware that these things exist.

I saw some horrendous stuff in some of the states in the US, including someone who runs a ju jitsu gym having his client fighters pummeling each other on the mats, about a couple feet apart, with sweat flying and explosive breaths. You could see the particles flying on the TV pictures.

Oh okay. Well for the one I did there was a fight scene that I did for the role, but we wore masks other than that and got tested after.

I hope you didn't do the test straight afterwards, doing the test in advance would make more sense.

Yeah a few days later.

Sports people also do it in advance, doing it afterwards doesn't help prevent you catching it.

Oh but I thought it would help me know if I had caught it still, that way I know to stay away from people. Don't sports people have to do that to, rather than not get tested after at all, but only before?

Sports people have a continuous series of tests, The idea is to catch the ones who have it before they can spread it to fellow team members or the opposition, it's a preventive measure. Only doing a test after a game is operation stable door.

Oh okay, well I can get it done before then for the next one.

Not to get into a whole thing (too late!) but it seems like you would have to get tested like RIGHT before the shoot. Even if it was the day before, was it the last thing you did that day that involved human contact? What if you went grocery shopping afterward? Wouldnt each instance of proximity to other people between testing and whatever youre trying to be “clean” for reduce the validity of the test?

You should really go into isolation within your bubble(s) following the test. In England, a soccer player was dropped from the team because they moved outside their bubble(s) to see their parents.

That makes sense but what is the everyday Joe's "bubble"?

Oh okay thanks, yes I am staying inside a bubble until the next project. However, the tests take a week to get the results back so does it really do any good to get tested the day before the shoot, if it takes a week to come in?

No, you need the test results.

Politicians love to claim the number of tests done, but if it takes a week to 12 days to get the results you're behind the curve. This has been a big issue in some countries, the South Korans were doing in 48 hours, I gather the UK claims 97.5% returned the day after the test was taken during 25 June to 1 July.

Oh okay, well when you get tested where I live Canada, they tell you that it will take a week and it does so far. So what can you do to make them work faster then, if it's suppose to be that day for these kind of jobs?

It sounds like their testing system isn't really up to speed. You can't make it go any faster if their infrastructure isn't in place.

Just follow social distancing, wash hands, wear a mask when required and follow the film and TV industry guide lines.

Oh okay, well I can't wear a mask while acting though, and was not able to social distance during the fight scene of course, but I can when off camera.

All you can do is minimize the time you're close and talking face to face. Unless you're in a bar, it's unusual for people to be closer than 2 ft and 3ft is pretty normal.

Oh okay thanks. Well so far, the only times I've had to get real close to an actor since covid is for a fight scene, and for a romance scene, but that's been it so far.

I'm not sure if you noticed that actors don't have much work at the moment because they cannot social distance. Clearly your people have not understood that the point is not an inconvenience to making a movie, but the possibility that one infected person passes it to somebody else who is less capable of fighting the virus - so they go home, where there may be vulnerable people?

Clearly you don't get it at all, and are happy being irresponsible? I've been offered some work in France, and I'm keeping 2 weeks after I return clear in my diary because France may be added to the quarantine rules between now and then.

If your country takes two weeks to process a test, your clean bill of health is two weeks old, and ANYONE you have interacted with in that period could have infected you. In essence, unless people isolate - the tests are quite useless.

Oh okay. Well I just saw opportunities to help make movies and I got on it.

Well maybe the filmmakers can get special testing done that is independent from the rest of the testing system perhaps, and can just test the cast and crew only without having such a large line up, perhaps?

To be honest, I would doubt that your filmmakers would qualify for a film and TV industry fast track testing scheme. With a one week delay it sounds like your local testing wouldn't have the capacity, they may have a fast track for those showing symptoms, otherwise they might be in an ICU at the end of the week with a severe case and still not have the test results.

You really need to be in isolation while you're waiting for the test results, otherwise it's a waste of time.

Oh okay, sure. Is there more fast tracking going on in the film industry of other nations then, if it's normal to get test results back in a day?

I'm not aware of any special schemes in the film and TV industries. As I mentioned. other counties manage to get the results out quickly, it depends on the laboratory capacity and the organisation of the system in each country.

There are now tests being introduced that give results in 90mins, however, I suspect, they'll be initially used in clinical areas and care homes.

They always say when one door closes, another opens. A small production company who put on a pantomime near where I live, but a much smaller one, have had to cancel theirs, like mine. However, they won't give up, so they're going g to put on a virtual pantomime - so we're shooting it to be streamed, and people will pay per view. It may work? Who knows? However, we did the teasers today and more tomorrow, so we are trying.

Money wise - we're doing a co-operative. We're all giving our input in return for a percentage. I wouldn't touch points deals normally - but with the crazy situation, the prospect of something vs nothing might well work. The potential for income generation would make it viable and the team seem very keen and we have no passengers.

Here's some stills from today's session.

I'm not aware of any special schemes in the film and TV industries. As I mentioned. other counties manage to get the results out quickly, it depends on the laboratory capacity and the organisation of the system in each country.

There are now tests being introduced that give results in 90mins, however, I suspect, they'll be initially used in clinical areas and care homes.

Oh okay, there are also home testing kits I read about, but they are only 80% accurate. But if you do three tests maybe, that will give you a good idea still?