Sorry did I post in the wrong thread? You had something about buying trying and returning various cams to see which was best in low light.


THAT’’S what I was referring to. I would have sworn it was this thread but maybe I’m wrong cause now I don’t see the post.

Looks like it was edited cause it was definitely this thread.

Oh yes, I changed the thread, wondering if I should do just be the director and leave it up to a DP instead, and I thought you were referring to that one. My mistake. Yeah I can buy a few cameras and test them all out and return the ones that do not work for me, if that's better.

Surely the DP is going to do one of a small number of things?
1. Look at your equipment and refuse to use it because it wont work.
2. Insist on using his/her own equipment which will work
3. insist you hire something.

The three grand could be better spent. If you buy things now, will they be useful to you for the next project? We've told you before about the problems buying kit.

Three grand will get a nice hire package but a limited purchase package.

https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/blackmagic-cinema-camera/537030-flimed-some-clips-bmpcc-6k-while-vacation.html
This member posted some rather nice BMC 6K images here

When you say a hire package do you mean renting? It's in just in past experience if a shoot date changes, then I need the equipment ready to go for the change, so rending didn't work well for me in the past. It did about half the time, but still want equipment ready to go for the possible half it won't work.

However, I can wait for the DP, and then decide what I need to buy, if I buy anything. Or I could rent, as long as everyone can stick to the shoot dates. Some of the items though, the rental store does not have, and may need to be purchased.

You should check when people are available, find a period when they're all available and tell them that's when the shoot is taking place, If some crew members or minor members of the cast then become unavailable, you replace them.

You can then hire gear and arrange locations for that period, that's the way films work.

If your contributors cannot act professionally enough to be there when they say they can, then strike them off the list. If they think the project not worth acting professionally over - you don't want them, ever.

If you are spending your money, you have a right to expect promises to be kept, and they need to understand the implications of not being available. What you could do, if you don't feel that formal contracts are possible is make sure you create an email trail satisfactory to Judge Judy, and your local small claims court.

You makes sure that one email explains the expense you are committing to and ask them in ordinary language if they can do it.

"Our first shooting date is XXXX and I'm investing a lot of non-refundable funds from my own pocket in hiring equipment, so will you be able to make this date?" They will respond with a yes or no. If they wreck the production, you use their reply and your question and it's going to generate evidence for the court. Few judges would say that after being told the implication to you, they shouldn't honour it! Not 100% solid legal stuff, but small claims courts like any kind of evidence.

Surely you should be having a chat with your prospective DP - they will have very strong opinions on kit.

What kind of kit do you want that a rental store cannot supply?

Rental stores who supply real film makers are always, in my experience VERY happy to help you with suggestions. They constantly buy new and exciting kit, so if you tell them you want to shoot X scene at night, they're likely to tell you "Why don't you hire the new XYZ, it's brilliant at 4K with only local light sources - you won't need to hire any lights or faff with generators?"

My local hire place always listen to me and my wants, then suggest alternatives. Sometimes I reject them, but often I have never thought of what they suggest. They are friends now, not just a business. They often give me more expensive kit for the cheaper price when they are out of stock. Hire packages are rental. BUT - they are a complete package. Everything you need, down to cables, gels, odds and ends - not just a few boxes you then have to search round to put together.

Rental companies often do deals, so it's worth checking their best price for the package, For example, short films often get extremely good deals with the big rental companies because they're investing in a future relationship.

If your contributors cannot act professionally enough to be there when they say they can, then strike them off the list. If they think the project not worth acting professionally over - you don't want them, ever.

If you are spending your money, you have a right to expect promises to be kept, and they need to understand the implications of not being available. What you could do, if you don't feel that formal contracts are possible is make sure you create an email trail satisfactory to Judge Judy, and your local small claims court.

You makes sure that one email explains the expense you are committing to and ask them in ordinary language if they can do it.

"Our first shooting date is XXXX and I'm investing a lot of non-refundable funds from my own pocket in hiring equipment, so will you be able to make this date?" They will respond with a yes or no. If they wreck the production, you use their reply and your question and it's going to generate evidence for the court. Few judges would say that after being told the implication to you, they shouldn't honour it! Not 100% solid legal stuff, but small claims courts like any kind of evidence.

Surely you should be having a chat with your prospective DP - they will have very strong opinions on kit.

What kind of kit do you want that a rental store cannot supply?

Rental stores who supply real film makers are always, in my experience VERY happy to help you with suggestions. They constantly buy new and exciting kit, so if you tell them you want to shoot X scene at night, they're likely to tell you "Why don't you hire the new XYZ, it's brilliant at 4K with only local light sources - you won't need to hire any lights or faff with generators?"

My local hire place always listen to me and my wants, then suggest alternatives. Sometimes I reject them, but often I have never thought of what they suggest. They are friends now, not just a business. They often give me more expensive kit for the cheaper price when they are out of stock. Hire packages are rental. BUT - they are a complete package. Everything you need, down to cables, gels, odds and ends - not just a few boxes you then have to search round to put together.

Oh okay thanks, but I can't just strike anyone off a list anytime they become an inconvenience, cause in the past, when I did that, finding replacements took longer even, and then everyone else has to wait more. Plus if it's an actor, I can't replace them, if they are have already been in previous scenes, unless I reshoot all those scenes as well. I had people back out of contracts before, and they know it would cost money to take it to court, than it's worth, so they didn't care about the contracts. This only happened a couple of times so far, and hopefully will not anymore. But sometimes it's not the cast and crew that become unavailable but the location owners, pulling our or changing their mind for any reasons. However, when it comes to availability, what if I have situations in the psat, where everyone was available for certain days, but the equipment was not. Should I just bite the bullet and buy all the equipment, since everyone is available for days that the rental stores are not?

As for equipment not available at the store, one thing I noticed was a gimbal was not available. The store has a steadicam to rent, but if I rent it for more than three times, it costs more than the price of buying a gimbal. Plus a gimbal is easier to get practice with, where as a steadicam would take a lot longer, unless I manage to find a steadicam operator.

Also, the store does not seem to have a telephoto lens so I will get a new manual focus one that I can keep, or maybe I can rent one from somewhere else. The rental stores only have shotgun mics, but if I want a hypercardioid for some locations, I have my own for that so far... These are just a few things I noticed so far.

Perhaps I just need to have faith that everyone will be available and nothing will go wrong, it's just I have always had to readjust in past experience. Plus I already do have all this audio equipment, so I figured I might as well put it to use. Do you you think the sound department would mind using my equipment while I direct. That way, I can do record all the post audio myself to save money and I still have the same equipment to match, as long as they wouldn't mind using it? But I will check again on the rental deals and go over things with a DP, before deciding what to do, if that's best.

If you're renting kit for making a feature film, you need to work in one week blocks, doing the odd weekend or day doesn't really work. Unless you've got a very tight working structure on the weekends, you'll spend a year or two shooting it.

If you're not paying actors and a paying job comes along, they will obviously go for that. Also, if the DP gets a work on a longer/bigger production, they won't be available for the free shoot, All these are the rules for freebee productions, your contracts probably don't have any legal weight in court if no money has changed hands.

One week shooting blocks force the cast & crew to make a commitment. Have reserve DP(s) in mind who can take over. It's not unusual for production managers to ring around for replacements.

Okay thanks. I payed before when it came to the ones who broke contract. The free ones actually were more available in comparison. And yes I will definitely want to pay. As for reserves, one short film I did before I had 4 DPs on it, after the first became unavailable, for example. I noticed that the cinematography style, changed from scene to scene because of that, so as long as I can maintain consistency, and it doesn't change.

Depending on the circumstances for them not turning up, don't employ then again. If the cause was their lifestyle, that's another reason to think again about using them.

DPs will match in with the style of the previous DP, that's part of the job. The original DP should leave notes on the lighting etc.

Oh okay sure. I have never used people again that didn't show up, so far. I can do that then and rent, hoping everyone shows up, for all the dates, if that's best. It's just the rental stores have been so booked up when I tried before, and just bought in the past, cause those were the days people were available. But maybe renting will work, as long as I can get it all shot in maybe a few weeks in a row, rather than spreading it out more.

If spreading it out with a day here and there, you're more likely to run into difficulties with rental companies, especially if you're booking at short notice. Although, I've never had many problems renting gear for a single day at a days notice.

Oh okay with the rental store where I live, you usually have to book at least a month in advance in my experience, which is fine if you want to wait that long, but if people are available sooner, I kind of figure why not...

If you're shooting a feature film, you should be planing at least a month in advance of the shoot.

Renting makes sense if you're using the more expensive cameras, less so if you're using the cheaper cameras, like DSLRs or the BlackMagic pocket cinema cameras, because they have a shorter rental life than the expensive cameras, Renting allows you to access the higher end cameras and lenses,

I stumbled upon Indie Film forum and this guy (Harmonica44) was trying to make the same movie 5 years ago. Warning he has over six thousand posts! He does sounds very familiar. lol

https://indietalk.com/threads/how-can-i-make-a-courtroom-thriller-interesting-in-this-way.54477/#post-405876

https://indietalk.com/threads/what-camera-would-be-good-for-zooming-in-this-case.55874/#post-413970

Yes, it looks very similar, with the same use of words and thought patterns.

Writing posts on forums seems to be a substitute for the actual process of making a long form film and yet, seemingly, not learning.

https://indietalk.com/threads/question-about-shooting-wedding-videos-with-a-dslr.56181/post-415829

It’s a repeat of what’s been going on here.

Since both come from Saskatoon, I would be very surprised if it was anyone other than Ryan.

He is very frustrating but at the same time I feel bad for the guy.

I think that sums up the last year or so on DVinfo.

As previously mentioned Ryan is on a spectrum, possibly Asperger Syndrome.

I apologize if I asked too many questions or was being too picky or worrying too much. I can just look for a DP and him/her and I can make the decisions from there, if that's best.

Ryan - so much of what people post goes right over your head, or you read it and dismiss it.

That other forum where you're posting virtually the same stuff but to a different audience. Can you not see that every single person who interacts with you comes to the same conclusions? Instead of making movies, your real skill is talking about making movies.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think you realise that you are stuck in a loop. You are making no progression - like the plot in Star Trek Next Generation, that had a similar plot for one story - an entire society who were stagnant, making zero progress. This frankly is you.

You really need to consolidate what you are doing and stamp a label on your forehead. Your recent posts are because you wish to buy a camera and a lens, and want us to confirm all kinds of things we find impossible. If, however, you really have proper, competent DPs willing to run your projects, and real Directors able to direct, plus actors of quality willing too work for free, why are you getting involved in the things you will hand over. Surely the credits will run "Produced by Ryan Wray" and then the other people with input get their credits. Why worry and why spend your money when the DP probably has their own kit.


You also need to understand when people are stating facts, or using examples. It never occurred to me, for instance that you would analyse my post and assume I really mean find some car headlights, or use real cars. What I meant was that you need a silent and very bright light that will work at a distance. So - 12V car headlights, low voltage PAR lamps - that kind off thing that can work off car batteries will throw light at an actor from a distance and leave the rest of the frame dark - if that really is what you want. A mega sensitive modern camera can use ambient light at night to illuminate your 'set'. You take everything literally - and we don't speak like this, especially when you frustrate us with your "so you mean ...." responses, which usually we don't.

You want too make movies, and you want too do everything yourself, and you struggle to communicate ideas to us. Maybe your actor group have identical frustrations and maybe these are what make them cancel?

Have you considered that you could be the director from hell - difficult or maybe impossible to work with. Unable to move quickly, unable to make instant decisions, but very happy to spend hours discussing the tiny detail? If you really want to make movies, you have got to stop dithering and get on with it.

Of course you may buy something and hate it - that's how it is. three grand is a sizeable sum, but can be wasted in a flash.

Have you considered why your current equipment is beyond it now? What do you want it to do that it cannot. Please don't say anything about the lens - because frankly, we never understood why it caused you so many sleepless nights. Somebody who really IS a focus puller would hate it, but on a DSLR, do you actually need one? Why not just do it yourself if you are cameraman? You never even explored this.

If there are say 11 different roles involved in your movie making, how many would you now say you are master of, competent in, or struggling? We've suggested time and time again that you look at your skills critically and work out what role is really your best one, but you never ever do this - and keep adding new roles - like being a colourist which started this topic.

Oh sorry, it's just sometimes I find there are variables in the suggestions that may be problematic, so I want to address those variables, that's all.

And yes, I will hand them over to other departments, and not get credit for them. I just want to make the decisions that are made will work, especially since I am producing with my money and all.

When you say on a DSLR, do I actually need one, need what? A focus puller?

I don't think I am the director from hell. In fact I was told the opposite before, I was told that I get shoots done too quickly, cause I don't want to risk going overtime. But when I get them done too quickly, I was told is the reason why the performances and cinematography might not be up to par, cause I got the shoots done too quickly. So I am the opposite, and actually make decisions fast when shooting, or so I was told by others.

By not letting the cast and crew get the best results possible within that's actually the available you are that "director from hell". They will feel let down by a director can't see their full potential and their efforts may come to nothing in the great scheme of things.

Getting done quickly and getting a great result is very different from getting done quickly when you should have done another take, and doing another take when there was no need is a waste of everybody's time.

Every time you say "and again, please" is forgiven when the turns know they could have done better, and you recognised that. Saying "One more time please" when they know it's already gone off the boil, makes them tell everyone they can that you are one of 'those' directors.

You have already details many times when people tell you things that are NOT how they really feel. Perhaps to not hurt your feelings, or perhaps just because you have driven them mad.

Many directors are also actors, and vice versa. Two stick in my mind because they direct with an actor's eye, and the know when they've got the best it's going to go. I know one at the opposite end of the scale who does wonderful work, but drives his cast and crew around the bend. He doesn't believe anyone else and he doesn't take advice if he can avoid it. I often wonder how good his end products would be if he simply recognised the strengths of his contributors and let them run a little. He once got very angry with me because I didn't know he was going to over-run, and I should have told him. I told him that I didn't have second sight, and only knew when he said - "OK, let's do it again..."

Oh okay. Yes I will try to take more time then on future shoots without hopefully going over time. On my first short, one of the shoots took 16 hours, so I really want to avoid that if possible. But at the same time, want to bring out everyone's full potential therefore.

I usually take suggestions that are given to me, and some of them have been quite good, and used them. The only suggestion I didn't take is one of the actors suggested I shoot a different alternate ending, but I felt that ending wouldn't work at all, plus it would cost more money what he wanted to do, that I just didn't want to budget, for ending I thought, didn't work. So I refused that suggestion, but I think that is the only one I refused. However, a lot of times people do not give suggestions, maybe because they feel like it's not their place? When I work under different directions, I don't give suggestions cause I feel like it's not place, if that's true.

Some people find it nearly impossible to shut up - especially when they know their idea is better, others just keep quiet, thinking it's not their place to comment. Context is everything. 16 hours for a shoot I hope, and not a shot! seriously though, 16 hours in one day is asking an awful lot from people.

Yeah it was for a whole sequence, not just one shot. Yeah that's why I want to cut things down, and not have to shoot for so long and be able to get things done a lot quicker in comparison, and not go overbudget as well. My last three shoots where I was directing, I managed to do each scene shoot in six hours per day, which I felt was a lot better. But I was told that's not near enough time and I need more time to get better performances and cinematography out of it, if that's true.

A 16 hour day, should've been planned for 2 days, not one day. Everything deteriorates as the day runs on, so the quality can go through the floor.

I don't know why you keep asking if that's true. The time to shoot a scene can vary from half an hour to a number of days, depending one it's complexity

Well it's just when I tried to split scene shoots into more than one day before, I could see differences in the lighting. So I thought if I do it all one day than would be better cause nothing about the location has changed, or nothing has to moved and then put back and risking a mis-match. But I will be sure to get a DP who can take care of that for next time. To be more precise, when it comes to dialogue driven scenes, I have been trying to knock get a page shot every 30 minutes to stay on track. But if that's not enough I could try to take more time with it.

You still shoot over two days, The DP should be able to remember their lighting set up or leave the lights rigged at the location for working the next day. Being a 16 hour day, daylight won;t be a factor.

Given the inexperience of your actors and crew, you're probably not going to get the highest quality cinema shooting one page every 30 minutes. It risks just looking like daytime TV drama..

Yes, that is why I was wanting to go for a different DP, and some different actors. A couple of the same actors I might be able to utilize, as long as I perhaps direct them differently.

A friend told me recently that biggest mistake inexperience film makers like yourself make is that they try to emulate the big budget Hollywood films that they admire.

Because you don't have the skill, experience, budget, locations, actors, crew, and the proper equipment, you'll end up creating a poor quality facsimile. Look at the explosion of video on the internet, in particular Youtube. Sure there is a lot a junk out there but there is also a lot of good stuff. And when I say good I don't mean it's going to win an Oscar, it meets the goals that it sets out to accomplish (millions of people watch their videos). The one thing those successful content creators do is they play to their strengths. But you continue to try to do something you're not good at, write/direct/produce/film a feature movie. Movie making is a cut throat business, it's not for the weak of heart. Its evident to everyone, except yourself, that you're not cut out for this. You don't have anything that is needed to make a successful feature film. Throwing more money at it, spending more time planning out ever detail or hiring a better DP is not the answer, the whole enterprise is a fools errand.

Many people have repeatedly said similar things and you pause for a second say "ok" and keep doing the same as before.

Oh okay, but was I trying try to emulate big budget Hollywood? I thought I was trying to keep it at a certain budget, and toning a lot down, compared to big budget Hollywood movies.

I also didn't think I was weak of heart, because people seem to think I'm too stubborn, and still want to do it anyway, so I thought I wasn't weak of heart at all, at least from how people seem to react towards me.

Like I said everyone but you can see it.

Oh okay well how am I trying to emulate big budget, Hollywood, or how I weak of heart?

You’re trying to film a night scene and posted examples from a Clint Eastwood film. You neither have the equipment or knowledge to shoot such a scene.

I picked up on that scene, cause a lot of was shot in the dark with less lighting compared to other movies, so I thought it's probably cheaper to shoot in such a style. Perhaps I should be thinking of different night scenes in different movies then?

But since I do not have the equipment or knowledge to shoot such a scene, should I get a DP who has the equipment and knowledge then?

Ryan - do you have some kind of memory loss - we have answered this very question multiple time now.

Your film making process is flawed. Story is everything. If you cannot afford to shoot that story, find another.

You seem to do everything backwards. Could the director of 1917 have made it if budget had let him have 10 extras instead of 1000. Could he have changed the story to cut the night scenes because lighting it was too expensive. Could he have replaced the cranes with a gimbal gaffer taped to the back of the head of an olympic retired champion?

Can you not see that you ARE continually trying to emulate big budget shots from random movies, then tinkering with your product to shoehorn these in? Every movie has some scenes that none of us on here could recreate on a budget.

The really crazy thing is that YOU write the scenes you can't shoot on your budget.

I'm grateful you don't want to set your next movie in a desert, but for budget reasons want to shoot it on a local beach in winter, with no sun, and sort it in post.

You need an injection of common sense - if you really misunderstand people so much, is working in a communications medium ever going to work?

Last question. You got banned it seems on that other forum. Did you consider why?

Oh well I thought I could shoot a scene at night on a budget if done right. I just thought it was possible as long as I don't get too crazy with it.

As for why I was banned on the other site, I was told it was because of some of the content in my screenplay that I posted for review.

One thing in that sentence, Ryan - if it was done right.

What can I say? All I know that if I was considering this scene with my camera, I'd be out every night trying everything I can think of.

I fancied doing some Milky Way night shooting that I'd seen, so I spent three cold quite scary nights trying it only to reveal that while I could do it, my results lacked that wonderfulness others have. First two nights were a total waste of time, and while I got the shots on night three - they were poor.

Do you have the test material you shot still? I assume this is where you got the noise problems? Did you try all the things you mention - the work lights, the generators, now perhaps the car headlights I suggested.

Tell me you read the car headlights and went out that night and tried? I bet you didn't. This is the problem. It's like you are a student at university collecting information but never actually trying it for real?

How long would it take to set up a car, a subject and your existing equipment - just to say it works better or worse? Please tell me you try these things for real. It's then fine to reject them, but I think you read papers, ask friends, and then post here without ever trying these things!

Many ears ago I made a 50 minute drama that some people on the local arts council film committee said I couldn't make, However, the difference was that I had been trained by the BBC, I had made number of films shot on 8mm film one with a professional actor who had some screen presence.

I had a crew of university students and, for part of the time a National Film & TV School student. A mixed cast of professionals and non professionals, although I'm not sure if a former professorial wrestler counts as the latter.. The students went on to work on high end TV dramas and feature films, so they knew their basic stuff at the time, but what we were doing was high end film school stuff in a risky environment

There was no internet, so information was gathered from an industry magazine, which had long interviews with A list cinematographers and some books (there was a lot less of these). The sound design was inspired by a sound track LP that had sections film soundtrack with the music.

The film was shot on 16mm black and white negative, so there were real costs involved and you had to edit on film. Mistakes were made along the way, together other mishaps, so it is possible to push the envelop. The best thing I did was hire an Arriflex 16BL, instead of using a Bolex with a home brewed sync system and blimp, life is so much easier with the right kit.

The film was finished and shown in festivals and I recently saw a scene projected in the local art house cinema and looked like it belonged on the big screen with the main actor shining. So, although flawed, it has held up pretty well.

The point being, that you can't keep on endlessly asking the same questions, you have to gather it yourself and analysis the information, so that you understand the underlying pattern. You may say you're doing this, but you're not, all you;re doing is going around in endless loops, You need to take a personal vision of the story and push it far as you can, not keep asking the same questions.

You should know yourself, and try to work out what in this stroy is about yourself and the world you live in and people you know. If you have to keep asking questions on writing forums, which go around in circles, perhaps you don't know the world of the story, so need to think again. Ian Fleming worked in navel intelligence in WW2, so James Bond came out of that.

Oh well I didn't have any subjects who's skin tones I can test it on, but I can do my own. But I had to decide on a better camera first, with much better noise quality, compared to my crappy T2i before I do any more tests though I figured.

I'm not sure why you're changing the subject to skin tones, when the thread is discussing something else.

What I mean is, it's hard to judge my tests unless I have actors skin in the frame, to light the skin to see how the exposure is, at night.

I can do some tests, but I do not have enough car headlights. I only have one car, and need more to test light the locations.

You only need one car for a test and a friend to stand or sit in the beam, it's not really a huge deal.

Oh yes, I'll do a test with my car headlights and see what I come up with.

This is EXACTLY what we mean Ryan. Instead of doing the test, you generate problems. Why?As Brian said - where did the skin tone thing suddenly come from? We are talking about illumination. You might even discover your camera is not crap at all and the issue is at the other side of the viewfinder?