That's the problem. Ryan clearly is NOT directing, he's letting the talent direct him as a fly on the wall. He's never going to produce what they want, because they don't understand any of this, and are wrapped up in the activity. If they are paying, then they probably won't because you won't have captured what they thought you were capturing. Clearly there's no audience for this. They may be very skilled in the martial art, but are totally awful at teaching. None of what you are shooting will work in my humble view. There are no production values at all, and it's a totally misaligned product. Who are the customers/consumers? What do they NEED to see and hear? Can anyone watch the video and replicate any of the moves?

Really obvious stuff even for a non-expert viewer. I've shot a few dance tutorials. You capture the feet, and start slow, then it builds up, then it goes to normal speed and I as the cameraman could not do it. I was told this was just because I didn't understand dance. No it was because they assumed people's level and achievement and progression speed - and messed up badly. They forgot the communications aspect. Training a room of martial arts students is easy, and it's two-way communications. The teacher KNOWS if the students have got it by their expressions, and can go back or repeat as necessary. In this video they assume the audience is with them, and make no allowances for what will happen if they cannot keep up, or see where a foot went, or how the arms got from A to B. They are just not good teachers for distance learning. They're clearly good at the martial art, but have never done any teacher training in one-way comms. Your job is to make sure communication is successful. If they cannot do it, then your framing and angles need to answer EVERY question a viewer has. If you are in the wrong position, they cannot learn because they cannot see it. You need to look at edits very carefully - a weight on the left foot move that in the edit shifts to right foot is bad. Can they repeat moves identically to even allow editing? Continuity will be very, very difficult.

and SCENE!

(thread fades to black)
lol


Edit: #386, Pete - that was so Ba.a.a.ad !
Trying to lighten the mood on a Friday
That's the problem. Ryan clearly is NOT directing, he's letting the talent direct him as a fly on the wall...
I agree they don’t appear to be good teachers. What they need most of all is direction, which unfortunately isn’t Ryan strength. Fix all the technical problems and you still have two guys sparring with each other. Many of the martial arts videos I’ve seen on Youtube seem to work because we are simply observing an instructor who knows how to teach.

Do you think we’ve given Ryan enough feedback?

oh okay, I thought I was just a videographer which they wanted on this one, and not a director.

On these types of productions you are director/camera/editor. The people you're making it for obliviously know very little about the process, so you're the person making the video.

Another way to think of it is that you are basically a full service production company on this project.

Eye level, chest level, just words, it doesn't matter. My point was that it's a general-purpose, objective, neutral, unchallenging point of view that never varied throughout the video. You need to change the camera height and angle for different shots both to illustrate the subject better and to add interest to the visuals. You are thinking two-dimensionally about camera and subject placement, but it's a three-dimensional space. Use that to your advantage.

Okay sure, I just didn't think I was the director since I was trying to go by what they want more. But if I am the director to, I can try to change my approach and say this is what we are doing, and they have to be able to get each take done the same, if that's better.

I don't think I can control what they wear though, or the location it's shot in, since it's their promotional video. As for changing the heigh, if I do that, it's hard to see the arm placement though, if I go too far down. Overhead might work though. What's more important, that the viewer clearly see the move, or the position of the camera being different?

As for three dimensional space, I don't have a lot of space, if they keep changing their positions, without wanting to choreograph it all out first. If I tell them we should choreograph it all out to make the shots more interesting, they say that this type of martial arts, cannot be choreographed because then it's fake, or it's changing what its about then. I think mainly I'm the type who has to stick to the plan, and we cannot change it all these different things just before shooting. I need to stick to the previous shots discussed. Even though it was said that storyboards are not necessary I think I still need to see drawing of the moves so I know the best way to shoot them though.

Part of the nature of jobs like these is the “political” side of it. You have to find diplomatic ways to tell them they are dead wrong about certain things and that they are making choices that are not in their best interest when they insist on not wearing uniforms or planning the shoot out more. Many times you can do exactly what you are told and STILL be wrong because the final product is bad and youre the one they blame. Stop them from making bad decisions before its too late, shoot it well and you become the hero.

The simple fact is that these are complex moves and without multiple cams you will have to change angle etc. to get all the different shots you need to show all the specifics of the moves. They THINK this should be simple and that youre trying to do too much when you suggest that, and they are wrong. They dont know anything about the needs of video production. It is often painfully slow/tedious and sometimes every little thing has to be talked through. In this case that means each step of each move. This can take hours per each move and thats just the way it is.

If they refuse to listen to all that, I’d drop the whole thing cause theyre not gonna get a usable product the way theyre going now and youre going to be left wondering what you did wrong when you followed their wishes to the letter. Some clients just cannot be worked with. Over time you learn to recognize these during initial conversations and you say “I’m sorry I dont think I can help you.”

If they're going for a "hippy" or "grunge" look, perhaps you should thinking about shooting in a less formal manner and use a "looser" (not shot size) style that matches them.

If this is just a promo video, what's the duration?

I am not sure what the duration of the video would be, but I am hypothesizing maybe 5-6 minutes based on the material they have talked about so far. And yeah I can try to get them to do what I think is best. They were quite surprised at the number of shots I wanted to do cause they just wanted to nail it in a couple, where as I wanted to do six which they found surprising.

One of the things about being political like I mentioned above is trying different tactics to get through to people who don't "get it".

You can try telling your client that if this is for the audience, they need to think of how the audience will see it...do we need to see what this hand is doing at this point? Then we need a separate shot of that. Do we need to see footwork? Then we need shots of that. Tell them to think of themselves watching the video as beginners and what they would need to see to be crystal clear on the moves. That becomes your shot list. Of course if one camera setup will show several things at once then you don't as many angles.

Sure thanks, I was actually thinking of saying that at the next meeting, it's for the audience. I will also try to see what can be done in the same shot, once I get more of a details list of moves they want to show. I think some of the more specific ones will go well, as oppose to the more generalized ones so far.

Ryan -
Okay sure, I just didn't think I was the director since I was trying to go by what they want more. But if I am the director to, I can try to change my approach and say this is what we are doing, and they have to be able to get each take done the same, if that's better.
Realize it is your name that will be connected with this video and it's your reputation.
If this is an ad or and instructional video (I've tried to find out who the intended audience is to no avail) then you can leave your name off of the credits. It was hoped, or I was hoping, that this video would not only be educational but can also be used as a reference.

Who is the intended audience?
It's beginning to appear that it is an instructional video and not an ad or a promotional video. If that is the case then it needs to be presented as a teacher would present it, and targeted at a slow learner.

Read Pauls post again:
That's the problem. Ryan clearly is NOT directing, he's letting the talent direct him as a fly on the wall. He's never going to produce what they want, because they don't understand any of this, and are wrapped up in the activity. If they are paying, then they probably won't because you won't have captured what they thought you were capturing. Clearly there's no audience for this. They may be very skilled in the martial art, but are totally awful at teaching. None of what you are shooting will work in my humble view. There are no production values at all, and it's a totally misaligned product. Who are the customers/consumers? What do they NEED to see and hear? Can anyone watch the video and replicate any of the moves?

Really obvious stuff even for a non-expert viewer. I've shot a few dance tutorials. You capture the feet, and start slow, then it builds up, then it goes to normal speed and I as the cameraman could not do it. I was told this was just because I didn't understand dance. No it was because they assumed people's level and achievement and progression speed - and messed up badly. They forgot the communications aspect. Training a room of martial arts students is easy, and it's two-way communications. The teacher KNOWS if the students have got it by their expressions, and can go back or repeat as necessary. In this video they assume the audience is with them, and make no allowances for what will happen if they cannot keep up, or see where a foot went, or how the arms got from A to B. They are just not good teachers for distance learning. They're clearly good at the martial art, but have never done any teacher training in one-way comms. Your job is to make sure communication is successful. If they cannot do it, then your framing and angles need to answer EVERY question a viewer has. If you are in the wrong position, they cannot learn because they cannot see it. You need to look at edits very carefully - a weight on the left foot move that in the edit shifts to right foot is bad. Can they repeat moves identically to even allow editing? Continuity will be very, very difficult.

You seem obsessed about the shots, the problem with video is that it doesn't know what it is and who it's aimed at, Unless you know that you can't tell how to shoot it.

Is it a promotional video or an instructional video?

At the moment it's neither.

I was told it was a promotional video, but they are the ones that are doing the talking and deciding what is in the video though. As for my name being on it, I didn't think my name was going to be on the video though, as it's a promotional video for their website.

They mean you'll be attached to it, as in "This is what this Ryan guy is capable of". Your reputation, your quality of work, etc. This is what people will think of your work, in other words. Meaning you want it to come out well as that makes you look good, and vice versa if it's bad.

Oh yeah for sure I definitely want to make it as good as I can. If I cannot though, I won't show it to anyone.

Yes but THEY might.

True but I am not sure what to do about that.

The situation is they want a “promotional video” and, understandably, they want it to be able to show certain things. Hey, it’s their money and our (read: “Your”) job is to make them happy, but there are two ways to do that: First, do what they want (even if it isn’t good), and/ro Second, to produce something that will bring in the business. (There may be more ways but, “disclaimer”, for brevity, that’s my summary).

“Money talks” and it is their money, plus, we want it. Right? (We need it to buy food ‘cuz we like to eat and there’s this gimbal we want to buy).

Produce something they want: Now there’s the rub. They know what they want. Kinda. At least they think so. But from where we sit it doesn’t appear that the directions they’re giving is going to give ‘em what they REALLY want. So what is the video business supposed to do?

Since the client here appears to be a bit heavy handed, in the sense of dictating things, and we don’t want to queer the gig, then about all that’s left is to offer suggestions and cajole them about other ways of doing things and see if they accept. If they do, then great! (For that moment at least. Breath a sigh of relief.). If not, then go ahead and do it their way as best as possible. Yea, we know it hurts, but we want their money … and future business (maybe!).

Read Josh Bass' comment:
One of the things about being political like I mentioned above is trying different tactics to get through to people who don't "get it".

You can try telling your client that if this is for the audience, they need to think of how the audience will see it...do we need to see what this hand is doing at this point? Then we need a separate shot of that. Do we need to see footwork? Then we need shots of that. Tell them to think of themselves watching the video as beginners and what they would need to see to be crystal clear on the moves. That becomes your shot list. Of course if one camera setup will show several things at once then you don't as many angles.

The sayin’ is “You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make ‘em drink!”

There is some good news though. One more gig done and we’re learning some new things, so that’s a plus. Every gig is going to be different so we walk away with the accumulated knowledge (lessons learned) and kit (paid with their money) so it will be a big plus.

Okay guys, this is just one person’s take. Calling this the “Make love, not war” approach.

Okay thanks. Well the goal for him is to promote his dojo and his training to offer new students.

I just thought of this...

You could edit together a few minutes, basically what you posted here and SHOW them how/why it does not work, shooting as theyve instructed. Literally meet with guy one day and sit down with a laptop or at his/your computer and go through moment to moment

Point out how you cant see feet when they talk about footwork

Point out how you cant see the hand that is not facing cam

Etc.

And how this could be solved by more angles/shots.

Lower priority, how goofy the street clothes look compared to a uniform (you could call up one of the better vids on Youtube and then show them theirs or and make your case which looks more professional and likely to draw in business. )

You have literal proof that is not working to show them.

Okay thanks, I already sent it to him and waiting to hear what he says.

The one thing I am not sure how to solve is the hand that is not facing cam since I don't want to break the 180 degree rule and go on the other side. However, perhaps I can still get close enough to the hand if I go on the line without crossing it.

Great that you did that...sometimes a sitdown/in person meeting can be more informative as you literally point at things, call up examples in right on the spot (the better produced videos I mentioned) and converse more fluidly than email allows.

Yeah we have a meeting set for it now, just got back to me. I'll see if I can talk him into some ideas.

You're exhibiting same passive behavior that you did on other projects you have discussed here. You're too quick to say "you can't" or "they told me". You seem to lack the ability to assert yourself. Most clients are happy to listen to reasonable constructive advice to improve their video.

Okay yes, I will try not to be passive then and try to urge my concerns more.

Okay yes, I will try not to be passive then and try to urge my concerns more.
Just suggest changes to make their appearance more professional and how they can improve presenting their martial art moves in a more instructional way. Then show them youtube examples to illustrate your points.

Oh okay. I think he is also expecting it to be done in one shot cause some martial arts videos, like the one that was posted on here before, are all shot in one shot, where the camera operator will move to the upper body, then to the lower accordingly. But is that all timed, then and they know which move will come next, rather than throwing in a new one here or there?

Yeah you can do that but you will have to choreograph them AND your camerawork precisely/carefully. So it will still require lots of talking through everything so you know exactly where to be at each moment. You and your client still won't be able to just wing it.

Kind of six of one/half a dozen of the other type situation...you spend time planning how to do it in one continuous shot or you spend time setting up multiple shots and redoing but either way you still spend quite a bit of time. He probably thinks this way will be faster...he's kinda wrong.

Okay thanks. I will plan the multiple shots first and then we can do it all in one go master maybe... but if we do that, we should do it last, after all the other shots I think.

I would do the master first, give them marks where they stand, Rehearse it, so you and they have it pinned down, shoot the master then go in for the other shots as they repeat the action. Tell them that this is how stunt men and Bruce Lee do. it.

If you do it the other way, you can find yourself painted into a corner, trying to tie everything together.

The alterative is o have more than one camera covering the action,

Okay sure I can do the master first, but I will have to have them rehearse the fighting a few times, and I have to tell them they have to do the same thing each time, no more different handplacements and all that. Cause if I have to move the camera down in the master to show footwork, then I have to know exactly when to tilt it downward. I hope do it the exact same way each time though.

Just show a full body in the master shot, that means you don't need to tilt down. One of the video examples earlier in the thread does this and it works,

You can check the master for continuity when shooting the closer shots, it's not a big deal when using video files. It was a bit more painful in the days of tape.

The video example shown before did not show the full body the whole time. It tilted down and back up again at certain points though.

As for checking the master everytime, the problem is, is my camera has no fast forward or rewind option. You have to wait for the entire master play through every time you want to check it, and I did not have time on the last shoot cause of time constraints as we only have the location for 90 minutes at a time with their schedule. So I am really pressed for time to not play through the whole file every time I want to check.

Could you not cover some of this with extra static cameras? Borrow some that can be set to cover the range of angles you need, and use your camera as the one able to move, cutting to the others when your main camera gets masked by them turning unexpectedly?

My system of dealing with clients who haven't a clue is simple. Always offer them options with explanations.

Right then, we can do this next sequence with detailed closeups if you can be sure you can repeat them exactly, or we go with a wider shot, that won't need quite some much accuracy? Have we got the time to do the reshoots when it goes wrong? Whatever they choose you run with. The problems they find are then on their head, not yours - in the end, they will start to realise it's them holding things up, and if they see money attached to longer shooting sessions, they'll start to ask what you think will work best.

I have a feeling he’s doing this for free or so cheap that if it turns out poorly they wont be too put out. Clients paying a reasonable amount would try harder to get a good product.

With limited time, multi camera would be the way to go. Rehearsing before you go to the location will save some time, with a warning that they can't change things. If they do and it's a freebie just dump the project there and then, throwing a strop can be quite effective at getting attention again. Some actors can switch them on.

The problem with your first video was you approached it as if you were filming a fight scene from a movie. Drawing up storyboards and filming too close. So there are sections where they talk about their lower body and you’re filming their upper body. This is more of a free form instructional/promotional video and should be treated as such.

I would film it wider, head to toe. Concentrate on what they are saying and doing. It may very well be all that is needed is one wide shot. Don’t force shots that aren’t needed. This goes back to being able to think on your feet and making the proper adjustments on location. Bring a laptop so you can review what you filmed. If they broke these demos into smaller chunks 1-2 minutes it would be easier to film. That way they could do a quick run through so you understand what’s going to happen in the demo..

Honestly less is more people have very short attention spans. If these videos are just to add content to their web site, I can’t see people wanting to watch more than a minute or two. The whole point should be to leave a favorable impression of their teaching technique. Thats why their appearance and air of professionalism is more important. Once both you and the client understand the goal it’s easier to focus in on what matters.

This is what I consider a content driven video. If the content is bad the results will be limited, but that doesn’t excuse your role as a filmmaker to make the best of what you’ve been given. Sitting back and leaving the decision to client who doesn’t know what they’re doing reflects poorly on you.

Oh okay thanks. Well with a laptop I would have to take the card out of the camera and dump the footage each time, which can take time, but I will try it.

I will also film head to toe, as long as it's not too far away for them to show the moves then, which is what I was afraid of. I can tell them not to do footwork, if it's an upper body shot, but I can shoot head to toe, just in case they throw in something.

Since it's promo, viewers won't be looking at the video to learn moves, they'll be watching to see if these guys are good teachers and if it's worth attending their classes in order to learn the moves.

Sure, that's a good point, I can do that then. I think they wanted to show the moves, thinking that will help the promo. But I can explain maybe the types of angles are more important, editing wise, rather than seeing the whole moves.

Zeroing in on some really key comments:
Could you not cover some of this with extra static cameras? Borrow some that can be set to cover the range of angles you need, and use your camera as the one able to move, cutting to the others when your main camera gets masked by them turning unexpectedly?
And …
With limited time, multi camera would be the way to go.
As I sit here reading the posts, page after page, I’m really stressing , if only you had another cam! Especially one with optical stabilization. The AX53 would make short work of this problem of getting those close-up shots. I don’t remember what brand your cam is but perhaps they make an OIS model and at the moment I’d put getting one ahead of the stabilizer.

Plan B with a single cam: While in Edit, just zoom in for the close-ups.

This “wide shot” and “closeup shot” has been a real problem area.

Another problem area is … Them!
This is a “people problem”, not a camera problem (except that you have one one cam). Film school or film course probably doesn’t deal with this so a Psych course would have been in order. Too late for that now but Paul, the “been there, done that guy”, has an excellent approach:

My system of dealing with clients who haven't a clue is simple. Always offer them options with explanations.

Right then, we can do this next sequence with detailed closeups if you can be sure you can repeat them exactly, or we go with a wider shot, that won't need quite some much accuracy? Have we got the time to do the reshoots when it goes wrong? Whatever they choose you run with. The problems they find are then on their head, not yours - in the end, they will start to realise it's them holding things up, and if they see money attached to longer shooting sessions, they'll start to ask what you think will work best.
Suggest writing his options on a 3” x 5” card (don’t know what it is in millimeters), and put it in your pocket, and add some more of your own.

One more thought.

No B-Roll cam? Not to worry.

Another option is to use a cell phone video or picture. Depending on how it can work, use a cell phone (Handi in Continental speak) to take the closeup video, or picture, and import that into the timeline. The late model phones have really good resolution.

If the speaker needs more time to talk, do a Ken Burns with the photo and a gradual zoom in on the frame. The gradual zoom will provide a “video feel” while the explanation is going on.

Slo-mo: Another option for more time to speak is to use a repeat of the section of the clip with the part the instructor wants to talk about but do it in slo-mo during edit. The repeat provides more time to sink in for the viewer.

There’s noting wrong with re-timing in Edit those portions of the shoot to provide clarity to the action. An even very slight slo-mo will make it easier for the viewer to grasp what is happening.

Editorial comment: Not sure who is who here, but if the big guy is the assailant and the little guy is the victim who is supposed to defend himself, then, as a viewer or potential client, the best option as a victim would be to see how fast you can run!

I think big guy was the “victim”/defending from little guy in that scenario. He seems to be the one showing how to neutralize various attacks.

Oh okay thanks. The problem with using a cellphone though, is that the angle is so wide you have to get a lot more close. So it can be seen in the other camera therefore.

Or even if I use a cellphone to do the mastershot, I would have to move the other camera out of frame and zoom in, but then the angle is compromised that way somewhat though.

These things always involve comprise, it usually involves working out the best compromise that works.

Okay thanks for all the advice. I also have another question about the 180 degree rule if that's okay. I understand how the rule applies to two people in a shot. However, if I have shots of only one martial artist doing moves for some of the video, how do I interpret where the 180 line is drawn then, if it's just one person?

I would think the line is between him and whatever he's facing (even it's a wall). In other words, if he's facing screen right, keeping all your angles so that he's facing screen right (or into camera directly or away from camera, if you're behind him) is staying on the same side of the line. Once he's facing screen left (unless he turns his body to do so) you've crossed the line.

Just imagine a line between him and the wall or whatever. Once you've crossed that, you've crossed the line.

Now if he's facing one way (screen right), then does a 180 and face screen left, that's a new line. Or if he turns 90 degrees. New line. Just imagine a laser shooting out of the front of his body...whatever that beam would be hitting, that's the line at all times. You may have to chase it. This is all covered in "the 5 Cs of Cinematography" book.

Totally off topic, but I broke a different 180 degree rule tonight. John said I'm one of those been there and done things people, which is true in a way but leaves me an expert at nothing, but moderately succesful at lots. This afternoon I messed up badly. We have some sophisticated power winches to fly people. Think peter pan. A computer controlled up/down power winch. Variable speed, repeats movements and acceleration. Left right movement is via a rope that drops down from above, through a pulley and back up. To fly diagonally, the winch follows the button press - gently go from 0m to 6m in five seconds and at the same time you pull the left rope and the carriage suspending the person moves left. Marks on the rope tell you when to stop. Safety sign offs mean that operators are trained and we cannot just stick a new person in. We get extra crew trained at the start, and I as the Manager also get signed off, and also have to do the daily safety checks. The member of the crew who has been doing this twice a day has finished her contract a day early to fly off to do another in belgium, so the last two shows it was me.

Instead of a person, for one scene we rig a hot air balloon basket instead of a harness and all I had to do was traverse past the middle by pulling the left rope, then once passed the middle, pull the right rope and the thing would gently land dead centre. I pulled the left rope, but then somebody squeezed past me, so I broke the 180 degree rule by operating from the other side where there was more space, but forgetting left was now right, and right was left. Instead of gently swinging back, the balloon basket and occupant continued across the stage and by the time I'd regained control he missed the scenery by about an inch and nearly landed on a flight of stairs.

I really hope the BBC crew in shooting the show don't use that sequence, I'll never live it down.