Sadly, Pete, I think you're right.

Oh okay thanks. It's not that I can't afford equipment. Some of it I can that was recommended. It's just I would rather direct and have someone else operate a gimbal, so I can concentrate on directing, so I wonder if it's still worth it to get one then.

But if I did, it would be for future projects as well. As for whether or not I have been satisfied with the gimbal, I was quite satisfied with it on the short I posted before, Battle Damaged Souls, but then people on here said that the gimbal wasn't level enough and I need another tool like a dolly, if I want to do those kinds of shots in future projects. So that is why I was asking about other options.

As for longer lenses being shaky, being the operator's doing and not the gimbal's, I thought it was the gimbal's, since I kept being told don't use longer lenses on a gimbal.

I suspect what people are saying is that gimbal would be worth considering if you're doing one man band productions in the future.

Some of the shots in the short had "vibrations" how acceptable that is depends on the look you're going for.

I recall earlier in the thread that the quality with longer lenses will be dependent on both the skill of the operator and the quality of the gimbal. If you wish to use longer focal length lenses, run tests with the operator over ground similar to that you're going to film on, so you can see if it's going to work. You may find it works in certain situations, while not in others.

Any decisions in this regard is entirely yours, there's information on various options in the thread.

Okay thanks. So it's not that I should be using other equipment like a dolly per say, it's just I need to work on smoothing out the vibrations with a gimbal operator in the future then perhaps?

You may need to use other equipment, it depends if you need to pan or tilt the camera during a shot and a number of other factors. You need to check with the operator to see what they can do with their equipment (some have joy stick controls).

Oh okay, but I thought the gimbal could do pans and tilts, or at least it could when I practiced with one before.

You need to check that they can do the type of camera moves, with the precision that you need. Most gimbal shots I've seen are pretty simple affairs, so you need to check how far you can push the envelop.

Oh okay, well so far if I were to get my own, or even have another person operate it, it seems in my research that the Moza Air 2 has the most bells and whistles for it's price, and seems to be able to do the most moves, if that's true.

Just because it's got features, doesn't mean that it's good for what you want to do and it works with longer lenses. You need to test.

well it's not available to rent at the local stores. It seems I might have to buy it but is there a way to practice with it to test before you buy it?

You need to check that they can do the type of camera moves, with the precision that you need. Most gimbal shots I've seen are pretty simple affairs, so you need to check how far you can push the envelop.
The wild card here is
... with the precision that you need. ....

Wondered why Ryan is spending so much time indoors on the computer and a check of the weather may be an indication. While you guys in the UK are getting the benefits of the Gulf Stream ol’ Ryan is getting hit with the Arctic “stream”. While our news guys here are reporting about all “the poor people” in the north east being hit by the cold we don’t hear about our Canadian blokes complaining.

The temperatures shown are in ºC. Note that the Manual for the AX700 shows an operating temperature range of 0ºC > 40ºC (Disclaimer: your cam’s temperature range may be different).

The nice thing about owning your own kit is it’s ready to go, you know how it works, no need to go to a rental place (if one even exists in the local area). It’s not money wasted, its money saved by not wasting time going after or renting kit.

Ryan: The clock is ticking! If the decision isn’t made pretty soon there won’t be any time to practice and the shoot will have to be handheld. (when is is supposed to be?). “Time is money and time is a wasting.” At this rate it may be Option #4.

Okay, still deciding on if I should get my own as oppose to hiring someone. As for the arctic stream the first shoot of the martial arts video is tonight, and that will be indoors.

again why not lensrentals or similar? They probably ship anywhere and they have to be competitively priced or no one would use them.

Oh okay, but i searched the moza Air 2 on their site but couldn't find any.

Rental companies will tend to go for the kit in demand from professionals. A Ronin is probably more likely or they could have another brand.

gotcha.

Maybe have to find some place with a generous return policy and buy knowing you can return if unsatisfied.

For what its worth one of my clients has (and presumably likes) the ronin s.

Oh okay, well I already tried the Ronin before, but thought I'd try the Moza Air 2 if it looks like that's the best one from some reviews.

But is the Ronin more professional then in performance?

again why not lensrentals or similar? They probably ship anywhere and they have to be competitively priced or no one would use them.
Moza 2 costs $489, you can get it for around $300 on ebay but if you don't go through a local retailer and you have a problem... LensRental offers the DJI Ronin S for 7 days for $60 with shipping and tax be around $130. I've used the Ronin S it's on the heavy side but is high quality, smooth motion, and powerful motors. I'd buy the gimbal if you plan to use it more than 3 times. I generally prefer to own, like someone said better to know your equipment and use it whenever you want...

In my experience the downside of gimbals is they add a layer of difficulty. You're going to need to plan and practice the start and stop point. During that motion if there is any defect you need to redo do it. Whether that be the camera going out of focus, horizon off, vibration, vertical motion from walking, maintaining the framing... These things are heavy to hold for anything longer than a few minutes.

I can't see why you can't use a gimbal and still direct. Most of us here have done solo work. In some ways its easier, you simply shoot it the way you want. You don't need to communicate it to someone else.

Oh okay. When I used the Ronin before, I found that if I wanted to pan and tilt, that I had to use a cellphone app to do that but there was delays, when it came to communication between the Ronin and a phone. So I had problems with delays in timing the moves.

The Moza Air 2 has all it's controls on the device itself, or so I've been told, so I thought therefore, there would more likely be less delay in response time.

As for a camera going out of focus, a good focus puller, who uses a follow focus can help with that too though, right? Or when I watch some movies that have these sorts of camera moves, if they move from one actor to another, it seems they have a deep depth of field if need be as well, and are not pulling focus therefore.

It may depend on which model you used, the Ronin S seems to use more sophisticated controls than a mobile phone. https://store.dji.com/product/ronin-s?vid=43801

Oh okay, I considered the Ronin S, before but I was told that the Moza Air 2 has a better follow focus system if that's true?

I was also told that the Ronin S, cannot perform roll moves while pointed up or down, just pointed forward, where as the Moza Air 2 can do roll moves pointed up and down. There was at least one shot that was a role where I wanted it pointed down so far, in the storyboards. Unless that's not true and the Ronin S can do all the same moves. I can rent it and try it out, I just wanted to compared it to others, to see what is best. But it seems that Lenrentals carries Ronin only, and I didn't like Ronin before, because of the cell phone delay issue, unless they have improved on that since a couple of years ago.

Oh okay, I considered the Ronin S, before but I was told that the Moza Air 2 has a better follow focus system if that's true?

I was also told that the Ronin S, cannot perform roll moves while pointed up or down, just pointed forward, where as the Moza Air 2 can do roll moves pointed up and down. There was at least one shot that was a role where I wanted it pointed down so far, in the storyboards. Unless that's not true and the Ronin S can do all the same moves. I can rent it and try it out, I just wanted to compared it to others, to see what is best. But it seems that Lenrentals carries Ronin only, and I didn't like Ronin before, because of the cell phone delay issue, unless they have improved on that since a couple of years ago.
I don't really know what you mean by roll moves. I think you're being a bit picky about features that are bordering on gimmicky. The Ronin S app is intended for setting changes, it might be able remotely move it but trying use it this way while the operator was using it would be a misuse of a feature. Honestly the Ronin and Air are both good, Tom Antos prefers the Air and I do think its a better value so by all means get the Air if you want. I will also say the cable connection only works for limited cameras and I have seen pull focus dial to be unusable. These things don't fix fly by wire lenses if they suck at follow focus they will also suck attached to a gimbal.

You should watch this video because even though the Air does a better job it shows how much the results are dependent on the operator. They do a walk around and you can see what happens. All the things I pointed out before about the difficulty of framing, vertical motion, focus... Often in other videos you are only seeing the final take that looked good or its being operated by someone very talented. For different shots electronic gimbals have to be tuned correctly. At the end they even talk about how they ran out of time just shooting a few shots. I can't stress enough like many others have said the skill of the operator is paramount. You can see it in this video the same shot can great or like crap depending on the operator.
Gimbal Wars! DJI Ronin-S vs Moza Air 2 - YouTube

When you talk about panning on a gimbal do you mean the motorized pan? Would you ever actually use that in a shot? I cant imagine it looks smooth or organic (i.e. not drawing attention to itself in a bad way) compared to a human panning by hand; probably looks like moving a surveillance camera around. I would think its just for reframing when not recording, which it seems like you could do by simply moving your body if need be.

That said, I have basically zero experience with gimbals so maybe Im missing something?

Yes I meant the motorized pan. I thought that might look better compared to hands, in case the hand pan might not be as level, but I can use hands if better.

I saw that video before, but also watched a couple of other videos where they said that the Moza Air 2 they felt was better than the Ronin S. Two of the reasons being that it has better follow focus, and can do better roll moves. I can see if I can find those videos later when I am home.

It's called a roll, I was told by other filmmakers unless their terminology is incorrect. By roll moves, I mean this type of move which is 3:58 into the video:

DOES THIS GIMBAL BEAT THE RONIN S? | MOZA AIR 2 | review - YouTube

I don't think it's a gimmicky moved depending on how you use it. Since the project I want to do is a horror thriller, it can be used during chase and suspense scenes in certain parts. This is one of the reasons why I thought a gimbal was a good choice maybe, cause it can not only go back and forth and up and down, but roll as well.

Regarding the control options, I would have a look at the video in the Ronin where joystick and gear head wheel controls are shown.

If you're doing dramas, you'll very rarely use rolls, so I wouldn't get too excited about that. Given how much you seem to like longer lenses, that's something I would check out in a test as being more important.

A roll doesn't give suspense.

This is getting like when the zoom lenses become common in the 1960s, people were zooming all over the place.

Lol Ryan and his rolls. Yeah they're a bit a fad that was made popular by the movie Inception. It's fine but Ryan makes something that wasn't used until very recently an essential that he can't live without.

Btw the video I posted they were using A6500 with 30mm lens which is equivalent to 48mm. No need for a telephoto.
When you talk about panning on a gimbal do you mean the motorized pan? Would you ever actually use that in a shot? I cant imagine it looks smooth or organic (i.e. not drawing attention to itself in a bad way) compared to a human panning by hand; probably looks like moving a surveillance camera around. I would think its just for reframing when not recording, which it seems like you could do by simply moving your body if need be.

That said, I have basically zero experience with gimbals so maybe Im missing something?
It's a little weird. Best way I can describe it, its like flying a plane. Imagine holding the gimbal handle vertical as you tilt the stick forward the camera points down, pull it back towards you the camera will point up, twisting turns it. While twisting would normally be considered a pan because you would use a gimbal to follow or move around a subject keeping them in the center of the frame it doesn't feel like a pan. Panning would be a misuse of a gimbal. There is a joystick but its more natural physically moving the gimbal in the direction you want the camera pointing. There are sensitivity settings to prevent inadvertent operator movements from being misinterpreted as camera movement commands. You have to fine tune the speed and responsiveness to type of shot you are doing.

But does the joystick work like a video game controller? I.e further forward you push it the faster it tilts or does it just do one speed (that the user can alter) regardless? Either way seems like it would lack finesse but then again there are motors for pan and tilt on jibs so it must be feasible.

Okay thanks. I've seen roles in other movies before Inception. Die Hard and Malcolm X comes to mind.

There are some shots I had in mind for rolls. For example, a person pushes another person onto a bed, and as the subject falls back onto the bed, I wanted the camera to roll back with him.

Another shot is a chase down a staircase, with the camera pointed down. at the staircase from above. I wanted the camera to roll along with the stair case chase as the actors go around the stairs, if that makes sense. So I had rolls in mind here and there for shots like that. So I figured if I'm getting a gimbal for other shots, then the roll shots would be a bonus.

If you're going to do a roll with the camera pointing down a staircase, you'd probably have to put the gimbal on the end of a pole.

However, I'd be wary of visual masturbation with shots, because I sense you may be lacking in dramatic judgment in the use of camera moves. Just because you can do something, unless everything around adds together, it may just become distracting in the context of a drama. The use of a camera movement in another film doesn't mean that it's the best for your film.

Oh okay, well I thought of these moves on my own, I only referenced other films as examples. But I am doing the moves on my own thought, not because I saw them in other movies. In fact they were done differently on different types of shots for Die Hard and Malcolm X, I was just trying to think of examples :).

I feel that the roll during a chase down a staircase will add to the suspense of the chase, or so I thought.

I thought I would screw the gimbal onto a tripod and then tilt the tripod downward, but a pole might work too.

The martial arts training first shoot went okay I think. I couldn't get the martial arts to repeat the fight exactly of course from angle to angle, so I think I will have to use a master shot if the whole fight for almost all of it. They also wanted to explain the moves as they did them and record live while doing them. But the audio room reverb for the location is terrible, cause loud furnace turned on about halfway through and no way to shut it off. But maybe I can make it consistent with room tone recordings if I have to use it. The one martial artist is pretty good though, and think I can work with him on future project hopefully.

I'm not sure what you were expecting when covering a training session, but you tend to break things down as you go when covering things like that because you can't repeat actions. Shots of the trainer and students filmed during other bouts cover any unwanted material (changing angle etc) or to compress the action.

You stop filming when furnaces, aircraft or unwanted noise come. Tie clip radio mics are commonly used by one man crews for this type of stuff. although you need to be wary of clothes rustle. If they want to do the actions themselves, creating rustles, tell them the problem with sound, this may involve you being dominant with them, by getting into film director mode. Usually explaining and coming up with an alternative that allows them to strut their stuff works.

A roll won't add suspense during a chase down a staircase, it may add vertigo or disorientation, but it won't give suspense, that will come from the siltation and the relationship with the pursuer(s). It's often the shot that reveals the relationship between pursuer (or where they might be) and pursued that adds to the suspense,

https://www.thefilmagazine.com/shot-for-shot-safe-theft-scene-in-hitchcocks-marnie-1964/

Oh well I couldn't use the lavalier mics because they wanted to explain the moves while in the process of doing them and it would have made the audio unusable, cause of rustling and all. I couldn't really stop during the furnace cause the furnace was on for too long and they were on time constraints and really wanted to get it done. I can ask them to try to break down the sections of the moves next time, but even with they do them, they do them differently each time. I think they do not want to choreograph it maybe, and want it to look as if they are spontaneously fighting and constant re-inventing since they are use to that. But I can ask. But since the fight is unpredictable on where the subjects are going to move to, I am thinking perhaps I should frame this video in 2.39:1, instead of 16:9, to give them extra room at the sides to move around, without having to be so further away in the frame. Unless 2.39:1 is a bad idea for such a video?

Oh okay, perhaps suspense was the wrong word and I meant disorientation maybe. It's hard to put it into words, but I know why I want the camera moves.

I've seen Marnie before quite a while ago. What about it?

It may give the wrong impression of me to reference other movies so I will try not to do it for examples from now on. However, it seems that there may be an impression on here, that I am trying to re-invent the wheel, if my choices are called strange. But my choices are nothing new really, and there is no attempting to re-invent the wheel, if that is the impression I have given on here.

Read the Marnie article - suspense.

Documentaries have these issues, you have to be tactful and explain that something isn't going to work for whatever reason. This situation seems to about the instructor showing off his stuff, get him to not speak while actually doing the moves, just before and after the moves - you can change shot for these. It's your job to tell him if it's going to be unusable and work out solutions.

You should have more confidence in what you're trying to do, directors don't usually go onto forums going through numerous shots in detail, these should be discussed with your DP during planning meetings,. After all, they're the ones who will have to do it.

Watching these videos - and especially the girl gushing about the Air makes me wonder if the art of unassisted camerawork is being replaced by a constant quest to make the camera movement more important than the content. The lift and tilt down Ryan mentioned way back is in this clip as a 'feature' - as if it's som thing worth remembering, and then using. It's just a camera move. It doesn't become a special or celebrated move. It could just as easily be a move left and pan right to reveal ..... The cleverness is more important than the edit. In this clip, for example, I noticed the edit was for continuous audio, NOT ease of viewing. Since when have continual jump cuts become NOT distracting. Every youtube video now just shoot from a single angle and jump cut, ignoring the horrible sensation you get and the absolute obviousness that an edit took place. No attempt to smooth it out, not even an intercut closeup or something to hide the jump.

We're getting obsessive about effects, and immune to good editing.

It also seems clear that these products are fashion. They seem to be used instead of good technique too.

However, I've now watched the clips and if I needed to buy one (which I don't) I know exactly which one I'd buy, not by listening to the rambling and chaotic rubbish they sprout, but by watching and observing and comparing the specs with what I see to analyse the products. So many of these kind of videos are hype and excitement with results that frankly could have been done freehand with just an appropriate camera make me smile. The girl never once demonstrated the features she talked about, and was just obsessed with gushing about this and that in a totally random way?

I also wonder about these people's background and history. Nothing wrong with being young, but when you perhaps went to college, got taught the trendy solutions, then went out into the world and used them - with no background technique, does that make you qualified to give advice - with such a big hole in your knowledge?

Blind leading the blind I feel. I do know so many off these videos are simply based on unsound, unproven opinion. She liked it. She liked it better than the DJI? Had she actually used the DJI or just read the feature list? She mentioned weight in two ways. One was that it was ONLY ...... then later she used the weight to suggest it could be heavy. I don't know, but maybe weight is not always bad?

Sure I can will try explain it. He said he had trouble trying to get the point of the moves across without verbally explaining them though. But I can show him what the problem is in a rough cut and maybe that will help. But this is why I do not like doing unscripted projects, is because none of the shots are planned out.

We came up with a plan and storyboards beforehand, but then when we arrived on location, the instructor changed his mind about everything and kept coming up with new thing as he went along. For example, we planned to voice over narrate it before, but now he wants to explain it as he does it. I just had trouble talking him into not explaining it while he did it. But he feels he has to pause to explain things. I will also show him a 2.39:1 framed version and see if he likes that better since the fighting can be closer, and have more space at the sides for unpredictable movement.

As for putting the style before the content, I don't intend to do that, I just want to get the equipment and operator equipment budget done, so then I after all that technical stuff is done, then I can concentrate more on the content, if that makes sense. But it wasn't just one video that says the Moza Air 2 is a really good one. There are other videos where operators say it's a very good one for it's price as well. There was on video where they talked about how it had a better follow focus than Ronin but have to keep looking for it. I can get the Ronin S if it's better, I just haven't found anyone who says why it's better though, so I don't have anything to go on that it is.

"For the price" is fine, just so long as it does what you require for your shots and if it can handle the camera and the longer focal length lenses you want to use. Since all the videos seem to have wide angle lenses, it's up to you to test them in practice.

I gather the Ronin S claims 85mm as it's longest lens, I gather the Moza Air 2 seems to work as well, but you need to run tests, since all this can involve dealing with menus etc. Of course, the operator is also a factor. Any choices are up to you. plus the selection of appropriate accessories.

I wouldn't storyboard something like that, because things always change, keeping plans general usually works out better. You are the director, so you need to talk the instigator around to something that will work. It may not be what you had originally in mind, but you can't get into a position where you have unusable material.

But does the joystick work like a video game controller? I.e further forward you push it the faster it tilts or does it just do one speed (that the user can alter) regardless? Either way seems like it would lack finesse but then again there are motors for pan and tilt on jibs so it must be feasible.

That same Youtuber that Ryan posted with the annoying jump cuts does a review on the Ronin S. Omg it does inception roll too! (rolleyes). She also covers the joystick, and talks about compatibility issues with being able to control focus or start/stop recording. Honestly any of these review videos can make a product look better or worse depending on their options and the types of shots they’re doing. Like I said before both Air and Ronin are good gimbals. All these gimbals are going to have similar limitations, operator skill is key, and there is plenty of opportunity for overuse or misuse.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwexyixrOms

I was reading about Ryan karate shoot. He keeps trying to plan out everything despite what we say that you can’t do that. Can you believe nothing went according to how planned out on paper. You learn by actually filming. Reading him describing his shoot I’m confused is he filming a commercial for the karate studio or is he trying to insert a sparing session into his movie? Why would he be talking during a fight scene? Doesn’t sound like a lot of directing is going on.

Karate thing and movie are two totally separate projects.

Karate things is an instructional or promotional video for the studio/dojo.

Ryan, Unfortunately many clients do not understand the process of video production and want to do things a certain way, that theyve decided in their head is the best way, and it is not feasible and will make a bad product. If youre going to take on this kind of work—and please know that you directing and not doing anything else would not solve this problem—you have to be able to a) know when this is happening and b) be avble to explain it to these people and find a way, probably on site/thinking on your feet, to solve these issues. If you cant and know youre not good at it, dont take on these types of jobs. Really good producers (what you essentially are on this job in addition to the other things youre doing) are good at this...Ive seen shoots go exhaustively long from producers having to stop and explain and come up with new plans on the spot but they got something everyone was happy with in the end. Some clients maybe cant be salvaged if they wont compromise.

I actually suggested Ryan do local commercials to build up his skills while earning money at the same time but he said he couldn’t do it because it was too hard. Granted it isn’t easy but it’s best way to learn.

I recently did a promotional video for a Ballet studio. The artistic director knew exactly what she wanted and had a good plan, which made my job easier. I just needed to take care of the execution and technical parts.

A common approach for this type of work is to write up a simple script with the client. Film them talking and then shoot broll that’s relevant to their dialogue. If the audio was as bad as he described he’s going to need reshoot it. This the reality of this type of work is you’re going to need to problem solve the issues found on location. As you become more experienced you can better anticipate problems and come prepared to deal with them.

Yeah thats what I would have recommended...Mcu of instructor intercut with b roll of moves or something but apparently that was not going to work.

Okay thanks. I actually bot B roll as well, and tried putting some of his voice recording over it. My idea to do voice over may be flawed to though, cause I think I see what the instructor means that he has to talk out the moves, live.

Cause I do to have B roll shots of him doing the moves without speaking, which I told him I would put his voice over. However, the explanation may take too long for the B roll if he is not explaining it while he is doing it. Cause otherwise, the explanation and the timing of the moves cannot be judged correctly.

For example, for one move, he explains how to disarm someone, and then throw them to the ground. The disarm takes some explanation, then the throw takes some explanation. But if he does it without speaking, it's hard to know how to time it to voice over.

So maybe him saying it all live works better in that sense, and I can see what he means. Unless maybe I have him do the moves without explanation and then 'freeze frame' it, until the voice over explanation is completed?

If I record live though for the rest of the shoots, the lavs will possibly get damaged or at least have lots of rustling while doing the moves. But I have to move the camera along with the subjects, so I cannot boom with them. So I had to put the mic on a stand, out of frame. If I had a second person there, than I could boom while someone else pans and tilts the camera to keep the moving subjects in frame. Or I could be behind camera and someone else boom of course.

But a lot of B roll does not match when cutting, cause the instructor and the other martial artist were saying they have a hard time making the moves look the same. For example, a subject could go to the ground in a completely different way from shot to shot.

Then maybe 2 cams, a wide and CU, recording simultaneously. These could both be on tripods BTW.

he talks directly to closeup cam, explaining stuff, maybe demos things with arms etc that require tighter shots.

Wide cam captures the actual moves

He wears a lav.

Make sure he only talks when not moving

Talk, demonstrate, talk, demonstrate, as long he doesnt speak while moving its fine.

You mentioned having to show each arm etc. maybe even more cams shooting different angles and possibly people to operate them to follow movement when needed. Maybe instructor can turn his body to show other arm to cam, keep it down to two cameras. Maybe thats dumb, hard to know without seeing.

Maybe too much trouble but if they cant repeat things I cant think of too many other options. You have to work with him but he also has to compromise for you.

Okay thanks. I only have one camera and one tripod though at the moment.

I thought about the multicam set up though, and you would see the closer up cameras, in the wide master shot, the way the room is shaped though, unless we had longer lenses to zoom maybe, but I don't think that would be framed well if we did, cause of how the room is shaped. Maybe.

As for a camera on his face the entire time, his face is switching positions all the time, as they are fighting and doing the moves, so I think that a face close up to cut to of him talking while doing the moves, would require a separate operator that could keep his close up in frame more, as he moved around.

Unless you mean a close up of him speaking where he is standing still while talking?

We also were suppose to do that as well, get a CU of him talking while sitting, and talked about it before, but he didn't want to do it on the shoot date though, cause he said he was unable to explain without physically going through it. But maybe if we scripted, perhaps he could memorize it enough, not sure. He's a nice a guy to work with of course, we just have to come up with something that works maybe.,

This is a classic case of client being unaware of video and the production people being unaware of the purpose of each shot.

I suggest you get them to build up a list of the 'moves' and what needs saying to support what people see. From my limited experience of martial arts, it plays appears to me that each move is a predetermined sequence. Slo-mo is only worth considering if the normal speed shot does not show how a certain feature worked. The person shooting/directing needs to respond to the client, shoot it in the most obvious way after watching it a couple of times to explore how far the travel is etc. Then you shoot it and show it immediately, getting them to sign off at least verbally on what they see, then you move on. They will say, you forgot the left foot turn, you blissfully unaware, so you repeat and show again. At some point they will say move on. Equally you may want to ask for a reshoot because you see something they didn't. It's a collaboration project. Storyboards, remember, can only be read by people who understand them - so your planning probably confused them.

Almost certainly I would be using a tripod, and not hand-held. It's instructional, not art.

also this clients expectations may simply be unrealistic given the many constraints on time, gear, etc.

Okay thanks. I wasn't considering slow motion though.

Some of the moves were pre-discussed but those are saved for the other shoots. I thought we were going to do them the first day cause we discussed it. But from now on I can tell him maybe we shouldn't shoot until every move is planned out and discussed if that's better. Some of the moves that I storyboarded he also changed the moves though, than what he had discussed. We had discussed a certain type of throw down for example, but then when he actually did, he said it turns out he couldn't do it this way, with this particular opponent. So the storyboard was not working, if he has to change the move because of that though.

I had the future shoots storyboarded, which I thought were going to use, but then he asked to these different moves for the first shoot instead, and wants to save those for later. But those shots are planned for later, and I think should go a lot better, if we stick to the planned shots. I have a much better feeling the storyboarded things we discussed before will go better, unless of course he has to change the move too much. But I really try to be ready for that and anticipate possible alternatives. I don't have to show them the storyboards, cause I saw them already do the moves before in rehearsing, and have storyboarded around what I saw, if that's good.

As for a tripods, yes, I wasn't planning on going hand held.

I have no idea what’s the purpose of these videos. They sound like instructional rather than a promotion or commercial. I personally would not have an interest learning this way. If it’s truly intended to be promotional none of this level of detail would be necessary. Clients often have misguided ideas and if you just let them do whatever they want you’ll find yourself struggling to get a professional result.

When I took karate classes the instructor would briefly describe the move, call up a student to demo it, breaking down each step and finally do it full speed. I would lav only the instruction part, stopping and repeating each step until I got the necessary close ups. I wouldn’t mic the full speed and ask him not talk this is where I’d use the voice over if necessary.

This is just my common sense approach. I’m sure there are many similar instructional martial arts videos on Youtube to measure your approach against.

It's meant to be promotional but I think that the client feels that if can really specify what he is doing, than it shows that he really knows his stuff maybe, and that is why he is being detailed? Knowing his stuff to promote more? When you say lav only the instructional part, are you saying put the lav on him, have him wear it during the fight, and when he pauses to talk, only use those recorded parts? Is that what you mean? They are not doing full speed though. He is talking while doing it, but not full speed.

But the lav still has problems with rustling though. Plus, the lav actually picks up the background furnace noise, worse than the mic on the stand, since the mic on the stand is directional, in comparison of course.

I dont think you need boards at all for something like this. If it were me Id just have a shot list (“cu with left arm doing move a” etc.) and check them off as you go.

A plan is good but you can only preplan so much.

Of hes gonna completely change his plans for a shoot day he needs to let you know as much in advance as possible so you can adjust your plan.

Given the nature of these things a storyboard is a complete waste of time, you don't have the level of control required. A generic shot list for what is required for each move being taught should do the job, you can then add to this on the day if more shots are required.

I suspect he's going to change things on the day, so all you can roll with it, making sure that you and he know the instructions he's going give by writing them out. I wouldn't expect a word perfect delivery, but you both know roughly what he's going to say.