Please drop this obsession with the gimbal, it has limitations, especially the lower budget ones you are using.

Either a slider or a dolly for the first shot. the dolly would be easiest.

For the second a jib on a dolly, would get the closest, although a Steadicam could do something similar with a good operator, especially if standing on a dolly. I suspect the top of the case is a trick one and the case is nailed to the table.

I dont think Ryan’s ever going to get the answers he wants. His questions are often way too specific to the point where he would have to test these ideas himself or at least be present while someone else does it. He wants to plan everything and account for every single possible variable and at a certain point you just cant...you simply have to see something in action and decide whether it works or not. You cant intellectualize your way to mastery, you actually have to do things, and go through experiences.

If it were me I would plan the movie, storyboard it, whatever, the way i see it in my head and when Im finally get ready to shoot, hire a dp, have locations chosen etc. THEN start asking about whats feasible in my budget for all these shots and find alternatives for things that dont work out. If there isnt time to have these very important discussions with the Dp, perhaps several meetings and much back and forth via email or whatever, then something is very wrong

The way Ryan’s going now he’s going to drive himself crazy trying to budget for something based on little experience, no knowledge of most gear and internet message board discussions.

Well as for a shopping cart, I tried that before but a shopping cart makes too much noise, if I want to record dialogue in the shot.

I can just do up the storyboards, and then see if it's possible, I just wanted to have a better idea beforehand, so I know what kinds of storyboards I can do up.

Let's say on the second shot I don't budget for a jib, and just dolly in and tilt down, but do not change height. Would not changing height on that shot, look weird?

I would just storyboard it however you see it in your mind in an ideal world. “cam circles around guy in a CU”. There. Move on. Figure out HOW later. If it turns out it cant be done on your budget, figure out what exactly that shot is supposed to convey about the character or situation (the answer shouldnt simply be “it looks cool” or “I saw it in another film) and your dp should be able to suggest alternatives that you CAN do that get the same thing across.

Hire a platform dolly and some length of straight metal track (with the leveling wedges etc) and you can do a wide range of the basic shots used in dramas. It's cheaper by the week, building railways will get everyone thinking they're working on a serious film. You can change the wheels on some models, so you can also track over smooth surfaces.

I've used the above on a number of short films and was part of the standard kit we used on the shoots.

Don't plan complex shots that will take a couple of hours to rig and shoot, you won't have the time. If you know you don't have the budget for something, don't waste time storyboarding it. There's always another way to say the same thing and there's nothing worse than copying something badly.

Subtextual, non-motivated, motivated?

Now I'm beginning to understand why your film school experience didn't set you up to make movies - something we've all been scratching our heads to understand. It taught you to analyse and appreciate movies. The fog is clearing.

In the UK, when I was involved in education, we had a whole raft of subjects that gradually showed themselves to be very poor support for a career in the media arts industries. The common tag, was use of the word 'Studies'. We had theatre studies, media studies, film studies, photographic studies and music studies. The common element was an almost obsession with semiotics, and a total disregard for anything remotely practical. Students who moved on to specific degree studies found themselves able to talk it, analyse and navigate it, but be inept at actually doing it, and worse, at getting jobs doing it! We also found the two distinct groups of people unable to communicate even on basic concepts. Even vocabulary was blurred and easy to misinterpret. Worse, these 'studies' subjects seemed to have soft and fluffy content rarely able to produce absolute conclusions. Is this shot good or bad? The studies people would say 'it depends', or they fall back to an eminent Director who successfully used a simply awful technique to get a point across. The more technical versions of these subjects never had this fuzziness - nope, it was a dreadful shot because..... or nope it was a terrible recording because.... The 'studies' people seemed unable to produce conclusions of any kind, merely make comments about subtexts, or the motivation behind a shot. As a producer of material - I don't really find any interest in these things - they're the scriptwriters problem, or one of the arty departments babies. I see a challenge to solve in a physical, practical way - they want an emotional product and I can't do that very well at all.

Ryan - you seem to want to make movies using prior movies as components. I want this shot, like the Tarantino one in XYZ, then this tracking shot, like in Lucas's ABC, then we go to more and more Director's snippets. Where are your shots - the ones where YOU see a need for others to produce. I see storyboards as a series of individual problems to solve. I do NOT see a story.

We are all frankly, still trying to understand you. Every time I think I start to, you throw in another curve.

Originally we thought you were poor and making movies on a real budget - then you told us you have plenty of funds. we have no idea of the idea of spending a grand on hire kit is possible, or not. Brian's idea of the track above solves lots of your questions - but are we on the right lines budget wise?

My guess at the moment is that you have a normal job, and are spending your money on your hobby, in the hope it will blossom. I think you are a member of an amateur film making circle, and only have this circle to use to make your stuff. I'm guessing you cannot pay real day rates to industry pros who may be local to you because it's too much money. I suspect you don't drive, or own a car - mainly because a car would do many of your problem shots. Most of your work takes place in real locations or outside. A shopping trolley rattles outside on rough ground, but is pretty silent on a road, and is quiet on carpet - so the dismissal is based on noise, but that's controllable. I've seen sheets of plywood laid down to make a semi-smooth surface in my time. A biscuit cutter to key them together and gaffer tape can be perfectly usable with soft tyres and wide angles. If you have no budget improvise. If you have, hire.

Well it depends on the project how much I have to spend. I was saving up for a big project in the future where I would pay everyone. Right now, I am doing the much more volunteer ones with a group.

I don't mean to imply that I am borrowing shots from other movies. What I do is, I think of a shot myself, but in order to give an example of what I mean, I will think of a movie with a similar shot in, just as example. But it's not like I am thinking of those shots first and trying to copy them. Just thinking of them as comparisons when showing examples. Sorry if I have caused difficulty in trying to understand me. I don't mean to intend that.

When it comes to what I learned in film school, we learned a lot shooting a movie, with what I would call a 'soap opera' looking way, in which the shots, were a master, and then diagonal close ups of the actors, as if it was a multicam set up. But I don't like that soap opera shot style, and want to do my own.

It sounds rather like your film school never went beyond the basics, having been involved in some student films, they were much more complex in execution than the films you're describing at your school.

The sum you mentioned for your feature film is around the budget for a short film, if you were paying people.

Oh okay. The film school course also concentrated a lot on the business side of it as well, more than the filmmaking side.

Really exhausting following your conversations. I can't even remember what the actual question was.

Whenever you have an issue with a piece of gear all I have to do is imagine how to misuse it. Like your concerns with wide angle lenses causing barrel distortion. So I take Ryan's fixation with close ups and then combine that with a wide angle lens and the wallah I get barrel distortion using a wide angle lens to film a close up of a person's face!

Then there is this larger issue of you planning out movies by copy pasting from movies for which you won't have the budget or expertise to pull off. Storyboards are for stories not for piecing together cinema techniques from scenes of movies you have watched.

You talk about not liking how in school they would use closeups for dialog but then you post a trailer from Iglourious Bastards where that's exactly what they do. It's actually a pretty accepted convention cu for dialog.

The business of film making is extremely difficult. It's hard to raise funds to make movie because they are such poor investments. The way you are trying to make films or become a director sounds like a torturous journey with a low chance of success. Your questions stem from a lack of experience. I'm not sure what good can come from watching movies and then trying to deduce how they did it and then try to do it another way because you don't have the budget.

Oh, sorry I don't mean to be exhausting.

As for copying and pasting from high budget movies, I thought that the shots I wanted I could do on lower budgets, since all the shots are camera movement, but at ground level, and the movements are not too huge, or so I thought.

The shot from "Schindler's List" isn't simple, it may look it, but there's a number of things that have to done to pull it off.

Okay then. Well as long as I can afford the equipment to do these types of shots...

This seems to always go back to you trying to re-engineer how to film what you see in commercial movies.

Remember your "Crash Zoom" thread that went on for months? Trying to pull off a technique with a fly by wire lens and people recommending you either not do it or to get a proper cinema lens. Followed by what lens you could afford, renting, or buy an older photo lens lens... Was it possible to rack focus with a fly by wire lens? What was the end result of that? Did you ever get the proper lens to film the scene?

That crash zoom conversation in many ways similar to this one.

I think that shot was for the cop feature he plans to make.

I think that shot was for the cop feature he plans to make.
My god how many of these "movies" does he have in the works? I keep getting fooled into thinking these are real world questions based on scenes he's getting ready to film in the up coming weeks. Not hypothetical screen plays that some day he hopes to produce. Madness!

actually I think only two...cop feature he plans to direct and the one he is about to co-direct with someone else.

I think all the questions are about those two.

It all has a touch of fantasy film making. There's little point in going into lots of shot details unless you've got the funds in place.

The "Schindler's List" shot probably used a hot head mounted on the jib on a dolly. a cheaper alternative would be something like a Jimmy jib.

actually I think only two...cop feature he plans to direct and the one he is about to co-direct with someone else.

I think all the questions are about those two.

These two, plus the martial arts video right now, yes. But If I get equipment for the martial arts video, I figure I might as well get the equipment I will get the most use out of, for other projects I have in mind as well.

It all has a touch of fantasy film making. There's little point in going into lots of shot details unless you've got the funds in place.

The "Schindler's List" shot probably used a hot head mounted on the jib on a dolly. a cheaper alternative would be something like a Jimmy jib.

He’s stated he cant make a budget without knowing the gear he needs for all these shots.

actually I think only two...cop feature he plans to direct and the one he is about to co-direct with someone else.

I think all the questions are about those two.
I've never made a feature film, but does asking question of this level of detail, years in advance make sense? I can't imagine someone directing a feature film with these type of questions.

We've all said that but again I point you back to him stating he can't make a budget without knowing the gear he needs which leads to him asking about how to get all these shots.

Oh well I was having trouble budgeting the equipment side of it, without knowing what I needed for some shots first, but am I budgeting the wrong way then?

We've all said that but again I point you back to him stating he can't make a budget without knowing the gear he needs which leads to him asking about how to get all these shots.
The analogy I would make, if I wanted to build my own house but I have no experience. I draw up a blue print, then ask questions on a message board what tools are need to build such a house, buy or rent the tools, then place an ad to hire people to use these tools. Given the cost, complexity of such a project and my lack of experience seems like a recipe for failure.

The equipment to make a budget film is quite simple: Camera, Tripod, Boom mic, and Lights. But as soon as you go beyond that it becomes a lot more complex and expensive with specialist who know what they're doing. I can't imagine buying any of this specialized equipment would make sense. That would then mean renting equipment that you have no experience using? Seems like one problem leads you to the next problem...

Okay so analogy wise should I then hire someone else to build the house, in this case the DP, and then decide on the budget for the equipment after the DP is hired?

Usually on a feature film you have a standard set of grip equipment like a dolly and accessories for the entire shoot, plus the standard set of camera gear and lights that will stay on the shoot. You can then add in some more specialist gear. like camera cranes for a certain number of days. You then hope for a ball park figure, no matter what you work out, you won't have enough in the budget. so you either hope for a great deal from the rental company or drop stuff off the list.

If you don't know what the gear is and what the extras you require to have a workable piece of kit, you are working in the dark.

Oh okay thanks. Well I try to come up with shots, I know I can get with what I already have budgeted. Like the gimbal for example. Only to be told that a gimbal cannot get those shots, etc. So it would be easier if I knew which shot would require which piece of equipment for budgeting. Is there a way to figure it out or to tell?

Look...you know how much money you have available to spend. You can consult rental houses and production listings of dolly grips, dollies, stedicam operators, ronins (or whatever nice gimbal), sliders, etc. and see what's feasible.

If I told you a professional stedicam operator was $2000USD (actual price in Houston, who knows in your area) a day, would that rule that option out? Probably. If a Fisher dolly is $400 a day, and you need a dolly grip (maybe another $450/day) to push it, would that rule that out? Probably.

If you insist on planning this way, maybe figure out what everything ELSE is going to cost (actors, food, locations, other essential crew, post, etc. ) and figure out how much you have left over. I guess that would be your equipment budget. Prioritize what you HAVE to have and can't beg/borrow/steal. If it's $2000 left over for gear or something, then you have limited options for what can be had for that over a three week period or however long you plan to take to shoot.

I'm not an expert, maybe this is all wrong, just trying to help you find different approaches to not go in circles as you have been for at least year now.

Robert Rodriguez is an indie hero and did all kinds of stuff to get El Mariachi made for $7000 or whatever, ON FILM no less.

Evil Dead guys have some shots that were done by mounting the cam to a long plank and just having two guys run with it to get cool moving shots.

Just fart around with whatever you actually have at hand right now. Trying pushing cam in a wheel chair. Put a go pro on a fishing pole. Literally whatever works, works. If it looks good it is good. Audience will never know how you did it and won't care.

I did a music video about obnoxious cyclists that cried out for lots of car/bike interaction stunt shots. Obviously super dangerous to do nonprofessionally. Thought about greenscreen, trick angles, finally settled on doing all that stuff with toys/action figures. It's quirky, aesthetically interesting, fit our vibe as a humor band. WHATEVER WORKS.

There are cheap ways to do simplified versions of shots, but don't expect all the bells and whistles in camera moves that a full blown Hollywood feature can do. Although, you'd be surprised how quickly their grips can improvise a shot with what's available on the set.

The cost of the actors is a major cost and it can take up a large percentage of the budget, even on a Hollywood feature.

All of us are trying to help you but you really have to face some hard questions.

Honestly I can't see how you are going raise any significant amount of money. Have you tried because I can't see anyone besides your family and relatives giving you money. Do you have wealthy relatives? Maybe it's just me but I wouldn't feel good if my mom or grand dad gave me like $5,000 and I proceed lose all their money. Are you prepared live under the burden that other people's money rides on your ability to make a success of this? The more money you raise, the more sophisticated you can get but like wise the more money you risk loosing, the higher the expectations and the more pressure.

Can you really tell us how much money you could realistically raise? How much of your own money are you willing to put into this? What's the point of planning years on end for something you can't afford. This isn't a short that you film with your friends and there are no consequences if nothing comes of it.

Okay thanks for the help. Right now I have 50K to use, and can try to raise more.

Okay thanks for the help. Right now I have 50K to use, and can try to raise more.
I think that's a lot of money, maybe not compared to Hollywood features, but that's a huge step up from virtually free shorts with your friends. That's enough to afford cinematic equipment that's been discussed.

However, in feature films terms it's still a low budget film, so you can't splash too much cash on things and you may still end up with at least some people working for free.

As I said before, at budgets that "low" you have stretch the dollars and only use them where needed for max value. I don't have personal experience but there are books and probably blogs, interviews, videos, etc. about what can be gotten for cheap or free and where you have to spend decent money not to get garbage results.

I wish Charles Papert still posted here...all these things would be right up his alley.

Oh okay. And it's not like I want to do a lot of hugely extravagant shots. But I don't want every shot to be so very restricted either.

Based on the direction this conversation was taking earlier it sounded like one of those budget buster specials where you borrow your friends Zhiyun Crane as a substitute for all the dolly/slider shots.

Well if it won't substitute then I can get either a tripod dolly with tracks, or a slider if that's better.

Dolly or Slider, if that's better????

The ENTIRE point Ryan, is that you stop asking questions in response to questions. Only you know if it's the most appropriate solution to a shot setup - we have no idea.

Make your own mind up! Does it matter which you go for if your idea comes to fruition. Is it better?

Frankly - as a producer it's down to money. $1000 for a ten second shot. As Producer it will be overspend, as a Director a sensible spending of limited funds. As the DP, a solution to a problem. As the grip with a bad back and little patience, a terrible decision. If you wear too many hats your brain overheats.

I suspect Ryan doesn't think beyond the name and seems unaware of the advantages or limitations of each piece of equipment. If he was aware, he would've decided in about 30 seconds if it's dolly or slider he requires for the film.

On the basis of his wish list shot, it's a Pee Wee dolly with risers, track and a few other accessories that he needs. http://www.chapmanleonard.com/dollies/super-pee-wee-dolly.html

If I wanted to describe a shot I had in mind by using example movie clips I don't think I could. I cannot remember watching more than a tiny handful of movies where shots rather than stay stuck in my head. There is no way I'd be able to share a go in, and up then tilt down shot - Why would I remember such things. Many of ryan's clips I've seen and they didn't stand out at all to me as exceptional, or astounding, or spellbinding or any of those pearly descriptive words. In fact, the only movie with an image in it that made me say wow was a long time ago and was of all things, Star Gate - in the desert with a pyramid. I've racked my brains for other amazing shots, which there must have been hundreds, but none were to me, memorable.

I work with professional production companies, and also sometimes amateur ones, and very rarely do the professionals get excited, or impressed. Perhaps compared to amateurs, they're jaded and seen it all before, but it's a job for most, not a 'calling'. Ryan has amazingly lofty aims, nitpicking attention to some details and blindness to others, but no chance to bring any of it off because others just want to get on and do it. Ryan wants to plan and plan and plan, and then get frustrated because he cannot do the very basic things.

Maybe his location just isn't the right place to be?

I suspect Ryan doesn't think beyond the name and seems unaware of the advantages or limitations of each piece of equipment. If he was aware, he would've decided in about 30 seconds if it's dolly or slider he requires for the film.

On the basis of his wish list shot, it's a Pee Wee dolly with risers, track and a few other accessories that he needs. Super Pee Wee - Film Camera Dolly For Hire UK - Chapman UK (http://www.chapmanleonard.com/dollies/super-pee-wee-dolly.html)

When you say I don't think beyond the name, what do you mean by 'name'? You mean the name of the product?

If I wanted to describe a shot I had in mind by using example movie clips I don't think I could. I cannot remember watching more than a tiny handful of movies where shots rather than stay stuck in my head. There is no way I'd be able to share a go in, and up then tilt down shot - Why would I remember such things. Many of ryan's clips I've seen and they didn't stand out at all to me as exceptional, or astounding, or spellbinding or any of those pearly descriptive words. In fact, the only movie with an image in it that made me say wow was a long time ago and was of all things, Star Gate - in the desert with a pyramid. I've racked my brains for other amazing shots, which there must have been hundreds, but none were to me, memorable.

I work with professional production companies, and also sometimes amateur ones, and very rarely do the professionals get excited, or impressed. Perhaps compared to amateurs, they're jaded and seen it all before, but it's a job for most, not a 'calling'. Ryan has amazingly lofty aims, nitpicking attention to some details and blindness to others, but no chance to bring any of it off because others just want to get on and do it. Ryan wants to plan and plan and plan, and then get frustrated because he cannot do the very basic things.

Maybe his location just isn't the right place to be?

As for not giving examples that are astounding or spellbounding, should my shots be that way? Should I aim for that, for all these shots?

You don't seem to be aware of what you need to do or the difference between a dolly and a slider. If you need to track the camera more than 3ft to 4ft in any shots a slider won't meet your requirements.

Shots should fit the story and how you're telling it. From memory that shot in "Schindler's List" is used to reveal the venal nature of Göth who can be bought for money, what does your shot reveal? Or is it just a neat shot that you want to use?

Oh well for the shot I want to do, I wanted to do an over the head shot, over an actor's head to make the other actor he is facing look weak, and then I wanted to bring the camera around to the actor who is in more power but lower the camera as it comes around to his face to show that power. So it's not the same as the Schindler's List shot, but it has to move horizontally and vertically simultaneously, like the equipment used there.

I thought maybe a slider would be a compromise if I had to, but ideally the dolly would probably be better since you can make curved motions with it and move further.

Can't the performance of the two actors combined with a simple cut. possibly with a simple track added into the equation do precisely the same thing?

Sergio Leone would probably do the same thing with a cut.

I wish Charles Papert still posted here...all these things would be right up his alley.

You rang?

(I don't really know what I can contribute to this thread at this point!)

I just figured you were a gear and cinematography AND directing expert (I thought you’d directed something) as well as having plenty of experience thinking on your feet, stretching a budget and macguyvering things together when something else wasnt available or too expensive, etc. and might have some insight.

Charles - as the person who is a master of moving cameras, I think your advice would rather be something Ryan can really take on board.

I'm not really sure about Ryan's assumption that he can use these techniques to convey the messages he intends? Looking down, and looking up is one thing but getting the camera fluidly and untouched almost from first to second position would seem to be a problem based on current skill levels - if faced with the description of the shot - how would you prefer to shoot it?

Thanks for the vote of confidence fellas! Unfortunately I can't take the time to pore through 247 posts (it seems to have veered quickly away from star filters!), if Ryan or someone can concisely sum up the talking points I can offer some thoughts...or at least point me to the crux of the discussion.

Can't the performance of the two actors combined with a simple cut. possibly with a simple track added into the equation do precisely the same thing?

Sergio Leone would probably do the same thing with a cut.

Sergio Leone has done things like that with camera movements instead of cuts.

Thanks for the vote of confidence fellas! Unfortunately I can't take the time to pore through 247 posts (it seems to have veered quickly away from star filters!), if Ryan or someone can concisely sum up the talking points I can offer some thoughts...or at least point me to the crux of the discussion.

Sure, I can try to sum them up, do you have any questions on what you need to know? Thanks.

I guess what I want to know is, is there any ways or tools, for moving a camera with longer lenses without tracks if possible, that can produce unmotivated type of vertical and horizontal movement?