Well it's mostly police and witnesses involved in the case. They say they are not legally compelled to talk about it, but witnesses talk to the media in other cases, all the time, so I don't think they would get into any real trouble though.

It's up to the individuals, they're not compelled to talk to you, so a lot of documentary making is building up trust, which can take time.

Oh okay thanks. I also have another documentary like short film coming up. I was wondering, if a person in being interviewed studders and stammers, how many takes is it good to to do for interviews?

The project is promoting a martial arts training center. However, they do not want to go over any storyboards of the shots for fighting. They want me to come up with the shots as I go and just sort of wing it. Which I feel I can do it's just the camera movement is tough, if I do not know where they are going in advance... kind of like the birds in the previous project. Is it just a matter of getting use to moving the camera, not knowing where the subjects are going to move, as well as getting use to telephoto lenses to emphasize the movement?

Don't stop and do another take, just keep going as if nothing has happened and after a couple more questions and answers come back to the same question, If they have a natural stammer, keep them relaxed and allow them to develop a flow. Use cutaways of what they're talking about to remove any serous studders or pauses.

Interviews can be pretty long, so don't be surprised at 30 minutes to an hour for a documentary interview.

As you become more experienced with camera work you will be able to sense where the movements are going better. They use this aspect of covering fights and battles in feature films. so that they look less staged, Spielberg used it in "Saving Private Ryan". Hand held works for close stuff, that's what they do for cage fighting and boxing, with the cameras positioned just outside in the corners etc. Get plenty of cutaways of people watching, it can be from any fight, not just the one you filmed, the camera is a great at lying.

Since it's not a public bout, you can get close in on the mat with the fighters, just don;t get in their way..

Okay thanks. And I would really like if there was a seperate DP/camera operator who covered this department, but I keep finding myself having to do all the camera movement and shots myself. But I will try to get a feel for it.

As for coming back to questions, I can do that, I just don't like having to insert cutaways, cause I feel that I would rather try to get it right, rather have to come back and then cut away in between. There was one documentary project I did before, where I was able to cut out a lot of the studders and stammers, and recut the dialogue to flow better, over B rool though, so that turned out okay I think. So I can try to do that again, as long as it's likely workable. Thanks.

I don't want to do handheld though, cause when I did before, people told me looked unprofessional and to lock the camera down. So if that's the case, then should I lock the camera down, and track the moving subjects, with pans and tilts then? But if I shoot a martial arts practice fight in a wide shot, I should probably get closer OTS shots of it to I am guessing, but would they martial artists want to do so many shot set ups, do you think?

Hand held is a standard technique in documentary and even drama, many of the top feature film directors use it. You're probably waving the camera all over the place, it's something you need to practice and you need a camera that's rigged for hand held shooting. DLSRs are pretty useless for this, you need a rig for them,

Small light video cameras often need the image stabiliser on the lens, because they don't have much mass or are poorly balanced or don't have enough support points on your body for good stability.

A documentary DP would be grabbing the shots while you're still thinking about them, 99% of the time, they are very much working without direction on the shots when following the action.

Trying for perfection won't work with documentaries, because you're dealing with real people who usually don't speak in neat sound bites. Let them express themselves and you can find unexpected gold.

Okay thanks. Actually before when I tried handheld, I was holding the camera as still as possible. This is my theory though... I think the image stabilization was the thing that causing it to vibrate more, and make it worse though. I think the lens was vibrating to keep the image stable, which caused it to be less stable. Cause I actually had the camera on a gimbal and it's still vibrating like crazy before, and holding it quite still, so I wonder if it was the image stabilization doing that. Does that sound like it could be the problem, I was having with handheld?

If shooting hand held you need to be relaxed, with slow breathing and your body balanced.

A gimbal isn't hand held, that's different and limiting in what you can do in a number of respects. If you were getting vibration with it I would check if it was correctly rigged.

Here are some tips for using a DSLR

Shaky Footage? How to get SMOOTH HANDHELD shots like a beast! - YouTube

We're not seeing errors from lens stabilisation, we're just seeing real camera movement. The guys is framed niceley, then there's a jerk and he slides across the frame and slowly back. I actually thought it was on a really nasty head, and the friction suddenly gave and the pan bar pressure moved it. The reason shoulder mounted cameras work so well is because your shoulder takes the weight and your torso provides rotational smoothness. Downside is aches and pains, but the fitter you are, the longer you can maintain steadiness. DSLRs have issues with CoG. They are not in alignment with your spine. The camera weight is under muscle control. Add the gizmos to connect it to your shoulders, and the weight creeps up, perhaps making a different camera a better choice.

If shooting hand held you need to be relaxed, with slow breathing and your body balanced.

A gimbal isn't hand held, that's different and limiting in what you can do in a number of respects. If you were getting vibration with it I would check if it was correctly rigged.

Here are some tips for using a DSLR

Lots of good tips in that video but there are many situations where handheld dslr shooting is problematic and hard to obtain the same quality of hand held seen on tv by those big shoulder eng cameras. His techniques lend themselves to short broll clips of 5 seconds.

Filming longer shots like interviews is harder. The camera has to be held at eye level away from your body to see the framing and if you need change any settings it messes up the shot. You seldom notice jerky movements while shooting, it’s only when you’re editing you see it. You can build a dslr shoulder rig with a follow focus controller. Although rigs have there own problems: expensive, time consuming setup, and cumbersome to transport.

For documentary like other work it’s about knowing when to use what technique ie tripod for interview, stabilizer for walk n talk, handheld for shorter sound bites or quick broll. Getting smooth hand held shots is one small technical aspect to shooting a successful documentary.

As far as vibrating Ryan is describing this happens with many photography lens with internal stabilization and fly by wire focus. The lens will “chatter” as the internal motors adjust the elements. This can be remedied by turning off stabilization and autofocus.

There are lot more opportunities for doing documentary/short interview format than featured films. It also doesn’t require the money and multitude of things go into making a feature. I’ve suggested this type of work to Ryan but he doesn’t want to do it because of the unpredictable nature of it...

Okay thanks, I tried a shoulder rig before, but perhaps the problem is, I need to relax more, in situations where I was a one man band, trying to get all the footage shot in a rapid amount of time.

The problem with a shoulder rig, for me, is that I am quite tall, so I have to walk with my knees quite bent if I want to track with it. I can try to get use to it though.

Another thing is, is that I was told before to keep the stabilization on if going handheld or using a shoulder rig. But now I am advised to leave it off, cause the stabilization may be causing shake. Which is better, when going handheld or shoulder rig then? On or off?

You need to simply try both and pick the one that works best for the situation. Remember the long lens on a tripod that resisted smooth pans, because the internal optics fought against the start of the pan, held it then had to release causing big jerks. That's a case for turning it off. Hand held zoomed in means constant small movements so this would probably be best with it turned on. Experiment and learn. hand held groscopic stabilisers try to keep the lens heading fixed, but then those that give you a left and right pan can mean these pans get quite abrupt - you learn how they respond so you can operate them better.

Okay thanks. Well I do the tripod shots of the fight first, and then do any handheld shots second with it turned on then I think, as long as they don't mind doing mover coverage shots.

Okay thanks, I tried a shoulder rig before, but perhaps the problem is, I need to relax more, in situations where I was a one man band, trying to get all the footage shot in a rapid amount of time.

The problem with a shoulder rig, for me, is that I am quite tall, so I have to walk with my knees quite bent if I want to track with it. I can try to get use to it though.

Another thing is, is that I was told before to keep the stabilization on if going handheld or using a shoulder rig. But now I am advised to leave it off, cause the stabilization may be causing shake. Which is better, when going handheld or shoulder rig then? On or off?
1. Shoulder rigs are not a cure all, they're only as good as the operator using them. They're best for holding a shot steady for a couple of minutes and are not meant to be used as gimbals.

2. There are rigs that allow you to position the camera down in front of your chest.

3. Whether you can use stabilization comes down to the design of the lens. I've used Sony G master lenses and they are smooth and silent.

Oh okay, but they used the shoulder rig type set up with the camera over the shoulder, in Saving Private Ryan, when the camera operator is doing a lot of walking and running around, right?

And perhaps I could invest in a gimbal, instead of always wanting to direct and have a separate gimbal operator, if that's better...

When the incredibly experienced and proficient camera operator is running around would perhaps be more correct. I just don;t get it when you pluck these job roles out as if they are a proper thing - you want a camera person. You want them to do certain things. Somebody skilled needs to decide the most appropriate method to shoot the shot and select the support kit. You cannot micromanage projects like this when you have limited experience in almost every department. It's just a repeating theme.

Oh, was I micromanaging the gimbal operator before does it sound like? I just hired a gimbal operator in a previous project, cause I thought that a gimbal was the tool for the job. Or what was I doing that was micromanaging?

But when people ask me to do these types of videos, like the martial arts video or the nature video, they do not want to make for separate camera operator and want me to do that part myself as well.

I'm talking about shoulder rigs in the context of doc/interviews not feature films. Rigs in cinema are used for different reasons. What would be acceptable in a war scene wouldn't be ok in a walk n talk. In cinema you are adding hand held motion for effect. We've gone from how not to get shaky footage to how to get shaky footage? We started this thread about star filters and now where are we?

When shooting hand held on docs you're not always moving around, often it's a static shot, however, with fast moving action you don't always have time to put up a tripod. A good camera operator, with a well balanced camera and a wider angle lens will be pretty steady on a static shot.

What I meant by micromanaging is you as the director deciding what camera technique to use, rather than booking a camera specialist who will listen to you as director and then tell you what is best. Surely the person tasked with visual responsibility would decide if they wanted a certain bit of kit. You want the shot, you don't book a camera expert and tell them how to do their job. you want to do everything and just have lots of assistants. Pick the right people and let them get on with it.

Many of the people will be using you because you are cheap and do what they tell you. If they want the best product, then they also want the best people. Do not confuse being in demand with being good. You are a novice in virtually every role - you get the work for the wrong reasons. You need to find the area where you have real talent, and resist the rest, because you cannot do everything well.

Yeah. Probably when people tell you they dont want a separate DP or whatever, what they mean is they dont want to PAY for another person

Yeah. Since that has been the case, so far, wonder if I should become my own gimbal operator, rather than someone else then.

Yeah. Probably when people tell you they dont want a separate DP or whatever, what they mean is they dont want to PAY for another person
I'm positive that Josh hit the nail on the head.

This is not Hollywood, a full length film, its a form of a commercial. The business wants to sign up clients for their martial arts training programs and being a local population center (assuming this isn't for a national chain), they have a budget in mind and don't want to spend much.

Rather than using a gimbal (I've got a Glidecam so I know the drawbacks), I'd recommend the Sony FDR-AX53 because it has Optical Image Stabilization. It works really well for moving objects and for moving around with action shots it would be easy and with a two-cam Multicam shoot one can have one cam on a tripod wide and use the AX53 for the handheld shots. Edit out the bad parts while using the tripod cam as a backup.

Another option is to use an electronic gimbal but they, too, have a drawback. In this case the AX53 would be a better tool.

Oh okay thanks, but I thought that image stabilization was bad, cause in past experience, if I switch it on, it causes the camera to vibrate, while trying to overcompensate or the hand-held movement. Unless optical stabilization is different?

Another thing is, if I am just one person, and doing the camera work, and cannot boom the mic simultaneously, should boom later and get the sound effects of the hits and take downs separately, and then put them in, in post, over the video then? I can also set up the mic on a stand further away, but then the sound will be further away then.

Stabilization: In the owners manual it does talk about when not to use the optical stabilization and essentially, what it doesn’t like is being almost still. When the cam is used on a monopod and trying to make like it is on a tripod, that is a situation that can cause the issue you’re concerned about. However, if the monopod with the cam is used in a manner to slow down the movement, like when walking for example, then I haven’t seen it be an issue. With a monopod one can also raise the cam up high, like over a crowd, or for more of a look-down view.

The last couple years I’ve been very sidetracked with construction and haven’t had much opportunity to play with my equipment. Been buying stuff but not using it much. Got a X3000 sport cam to go with the AX53. It’s a Go Pro type of cam with weather protection (to ~ 30 feet under water?) and it also has optical stabilization. I’ve used all three together but only for a little bit. This year I hope everything will be different and I’ll get lots of use out of them primarily for action shots.

One of the few times I used the X3000 was last spring where I caught a newspaper thief! That’s right. Being small I hid it in a bush and shortly after 4 AM got him in the video. All the cams can be operated using the iPhone and the Sony app: The X3000, AX53, and the AX700. Makes for a nice system. With the app you can see what the cam is seeing, control stop, start, and zoom.

One man crew: Many of the wedding guys are one-man shows and they’re awesome. I’ve done two weddings, both very nice ones, but they were for relatives as a freebie. Would not want to do them professionally ‘cuz you really have to be on your toes. The second one was much easier so maybe one gets accustomed to them but there is a lot of files, editing work, and storage. Even so, in the second wedding the photographer twice stood in front of me! The first time was with the bride entry and the cam on the tripod so couldn’t move it. With the second shot the cam was rolling with the audio on so couldn’t say anything and was for the first dance so I raised the cam over her head to get my shot, no room to move sideways due to being crowded by the guests.

For audio, I use the Tascam DR-44WL recorder and for a fixed mic and it can be controlled via a Tascam app on the iPhone; start, stop, gain stuff. This was put to good use when the vows were done. Used the AX700 in conjunction with a JuicedLink pre and XLR cables to mics for wide or unmanned shots. For the AX53 I standardly like the Røde Video Stereo mic, either for regular audio or for syncing. Done some church choir videos where there would be a good mic for the choir with the 44WL recorder and the AX700 wide at the rear of the church. Worked well.

With regard to booming, for the interview type shoot or the martial arts shoot, one might be able to use a boom on a tripod. I’ve used it set it up with a Manfrotto Avenger tripod (which is a heavier duty model) with 3” casters, a K-tek carbon fiber telescoping boom pole, and sandbags. It may not be as perfect as you would like but for a one-man show it’s all about compromise. Frankly, I’ve got more money tied up in audio gear than in camera gear. Mics are to audio like paint brushes are to an artist. As the saying goes, it takes money to make money.

A common method for single person shooting is to have an on board microphone and to use radio mics on the participant(s). You can use mic stands (with a boom if needed) or magic arms to mount a mic in appropriate places.

I suspect DSLR image stabilization can vary from lens model to lens model, so you need to select lenses that are suitable for shooting video. Just because a lens has a feature doesn't mean that they're good at all jobs and all circumstances.

Brian mentioned something very important. A lens stabiliser system for stills photography constantly works hard to get a single frame steady - usually by physically jiggling the internal lens elements - you are shooting video, so will see this happening. It's not faulty, just unable to do it's job without messing up sequential frames. Gimbals do a steadying function differently - so can work for SOME circumstances. Your problem is not having enough experience to be able to guess the result before you try.

It’s hard to decipher what Ryan is talking about but in regards to stabilization most cameras recommended turning stabilization off when on a tripod because it can cause unwanted changes to the image. This is what he is referring as “vibrations”. Whether it will help or hurt while on a gimbal would vary based on the equipment your using. This is another Ryan wanting an absolute rule. Simply run a test and find what works best for you.

Oh okay, but in the short film we talked about before, during the gimbal shots, the camera shakes, it was pointed out, at 4:50 around, into the video:

YouTube

So I am wondering, are those microshakes, do to the stabilization being on, while on the gimbal?

Sorry, youtube is not allowing the video to be played on here for some reason. I am trying to figure it out.

Why wasn't this shaking noticed at the time, so you could do another take?

We did a few takes but me and the gimbal operator could not figure out what the problem was. Basically we just had to move on.

Without seeing the footage the most likely cause for vibrations on a gimbal is the motors are struggling. The motors struggle when the camera is not properly balanced, the camera is too heavy, the lens is too big in particular zoom lenses, gusting winds or the gimbal is of low quality or malfunctioning.

Okay thanks. Sorry about the footage, youtube is all changed around now, and I am still trying to figure out the problem, since my videos were working before. If the motor is struggling, would it be struggling if the gimbal is held still as well, or only struggling when you are moving it?

The video is now set to private, which means that unless you are included in the people list, you can't see it. Nothing has changed apart from the person who has the video has changed it's status - some people don't want video's shared.

The gimbal is just physics. Kill the power and watch what happens. Does the camera suddenly take a violent nose dive because it's very lens heavy? If so, then the gimbal servos are working very hard simply to keep the lens up, and their ability to react quickly to tiny movements is being paralysed by the imbalance. Gimbal mounts vary so much in their ability to react too. A big setup has inertia and momentum, again, things the servos have to try to deal with.
EDIT - sorry, Peter said all this.

Why do you call the cameraman the 'gimbal operator' = In your neck of the woods do you have such specialisms? I don't know ANY gimbal operators , I know cameramen/women who have gimbal mounts. I'm thinking you've got a little hung up on the terminology applied to people. Surely - if you have a need for a cameraman, the choice of grip kit to stick them on is up to them. I see steadicam as separate because it's a unique role, but I have a gimbal mount, and rarely ever use it. Your choice of words and phrases suggests in our minds divisions, separations and processes we find a bit difficult to attach to the products you produce? Looking at your work, I see tripods and hand held shooting the main two processes. Trouble is, often we see hand held when a tripod would have solved all the issues, and when we see movement of the camera it seems unrehearsed or a bit 'odd' - and a gimbal would not have really helped.

I get the impression Ryan thinks thar a gimbal is the answer to everything, however, they have limitations and work better in some circumstances than others. https://nofilmschool.com/2016/07/9-important-things-know-if-you-want-use-gimbal-pro

https://www.redsharknews.com/production/item/5787-if-you-want-to-stabilise-your-shot,-what-s-the-best-option

From what he's said about his area, buying a dolly would be better for dramas, rather than yet another gimbal.

I'd suspect the haphazard looking nature of much of Ryan's work is due to not following a formal film set workflow...

I.e. block, light, rehearse, tweak shoot

1. Figure out blocking of camera and actors for a shot

2. Light according to blocking you've just figured out

3. Rehearse it

4. Make adjustments to whatever based on what you observe during rehearsal

5. Record actual takes

This is how all professional sets flow. If you rehearse those moves enough you or whoever is operating will know when they need to be framed like X and when they need to be framed like Y. After you've done enough rehearsals, you should get it to where everyone knows their parts and it looks smooth and professional, THEN it's time to record, and the sloppy, uncertain, searching quality to the camerawork should be eliminated.

If you want to claim you don't have time for all that because of schedule etc. well, then you get what you get and you can't really complain.

I find it odd Ryan’s inability to troubleshoot problems and the misleading way he describes them. He says the lens is vibrating due to stabilization then only later reveals its on a gimbal. It shouldn’t be hard to deduce if it only happens on the gimbal it’s the gimbal. Besides you should feel the vibrations in the gimbal handle. Even if it was due to ois you would simply turn it off.

Oh okay thanks, I followed all those steps before, but perhaps I just need to do them better or do more rehearsals and more takes.

As for not knowing if it's the gimbal or the lens, I wasn't operating the gimbal, so I'm not sure.

Perhaps the term gimbal operator is the wrong term. I just called him that cause I posted that I was looking for a gimbal operator for a fair amount of the shots I wanted. I don't think of a gimbal as a fix everything tool, I just wanted it for some shots where I felt it would be the right tool. As for lenses we used mostly an 85mm lens, but it was a light, short one, and not a heavy one for the gimbal.

I don't know which camera you're using, but if it has a Super 35 sensor, you may be pushing the skills of your operator, since many gimbal shots tend to use wide angle lenses.

We used a Sony A7s II.

I wanted to rotate around someone's face when doing the shots, and also do close up face shots when tracking. The 85mm is better for close ups, since they do not have near as much barrel distortion in faces, compared to wider lenses.

However, I have seen gimbal footage done with non-wide lenses, so are they just really good at doing it then?

The more telephoto the lens the harder it is to get smooth shots. 24-50mm is the typical range for gimbal work but most people stay on the wide end. Most commonly used for following someone walking. Where as slider/dolly provide a smoother, gentler, controlled movement. The slider especially suited for close ups. There is an inherent mechanical jerkiness in electric gimbals.

Oh okay thanks. I've tried a dolly before too, but I found that it was very difficult to level out the track, and the footage was never good. The dolly footage I got before was worse than gimbal footage.

For a current project, would it be possible to do a shot like this on a gimbal, even though it's a longer lens, as long as the gimbal operator is really good?

The chaser rotating shot - YouTube

Your dolly problems are probably pilot/crew error.

Leveling a dolly is quite an operation that usually involves knocking little wedge shaped pieces of wood under just the right points just the right amount, checking, rechecking, and rechecking. Then there have to be no bumps on the track, or issues with the wheels on the dolly having flat spots...maybe some other things I'm forgetting.

But that or a nice slider (a Dana dolly or the kind of slider supported at either end, if tripod mounted) is probably what you're after.

the gimbal is not a magic solution for every type of movement. Sometimes a dolly is better, sometimes a stedicam is better, sometimes handheld is better, sometimes a crane is better, etc..

I think you're trying to do all these fancy shots on what you can afford instead of compromising your expectations based on your limitations, and accepting "no we can't do this with what we have. Let's find something we CAN do that doesn't look like crap".

Okay thanks. I tried having the person operating the gimbal to do a similar move at 5:07 into this video:

Sad and Battle Damaged Souls - YouTube

Does the move look good on a gimbal compare to a dolly? I could get the dolly, it's just I would need a circular track for it, and have to do it on a long lens, which means a longer track as well. Plus I don't think I need to compromise as long as I have the right equipment, right?

you’re doing that copy paste thing again. You’re trying to use the wrong equipment to replicate scenes from big budget hollywood movies.
No a gimbal wasn’t used for that shot more likely a bigger more expensive version of a device like this. This is actually something might want to invest in.
https://youtu.be/6_p93J3OwfU

https://youtu.be/DPtHPgZmZdA
These sort of rotating shots are used frequently in hollywood action movies cough michael bay

Okay thanks but a slider would not have been able to make that move though, because it needs to around the actor, where as that one cannot make enough of a circular motion to do so though. It looks like in order to do that move, you need to be able to a circular turn close to 180 degrees at least. But it doesn't look like that slider can do that.

Also since we used a gimbal to replicate the shot, is the problem with a gimbal is that that shot is too shaky then?

That's when you whip out the circular dolly track. As I said, it's an involved process setting all that up.

You really have to ask yourself if you NEED that shot. Sure, maybe in an ideal world, but let's say it takes half a shooting day to set up and execute...was it worth it? Could there not have been a less time consuming, if less "dazzling" way to shoot that? Do you want to actually make your movie and have it look good or would you rather make your movie but have many shots that fail at trying to do something you weren't equipped for?

they probably have circular dolly track combined with a crane like arm I posted. and yes you can attempt use a gimbal to poorly approximate the shot

please note and do not ignore the word “poorly”.

Okay thanks. Well I was told before not to try to emulate what I have seen before. So what if I used the gimbal to come up with my own original gimbal shots, instead of trying to emulate dolly and slider shots. Would doing my own original shots, be better than trying to emulate shots I've seen before?