If you don't care, why are you wasting other people's time?

Oh okay, well I have shot a lot of the things over the years and I go out and shoot a lot. When it comes to the 180 degree rule, I almost never got confused when it's broken, so I don't care if it's broken. I feel that the camera should be placed in the best spot for emotional perspective at that time, regardless if it's crossing the line or not, cause whenever I see it in movies, I am never confused.

The only time it's confusing is on CU shots of subjects, cause then they look like they are looking in the same direction. But if it's an OTS shot or a master shot, crossing the line, I never get confused, so I figured why would other people, if I can follow along? Is that the wrong way of looking at the 180 degree rule?
This isn't true. You just asked us about a scene where you thought the rule was broken when it wasn't. You are constantly obsessing over this rule. If you understood the rule or didn't care about it, you wouldn't be asking us questions. You would do well to get therapy to help you out of these mental road blocks. You are a very difficult, obsessive and obstinate person.

Well - you don't quite think the same as many people, so with the greatest respect, you are not the best person to work out how your audience think, because they might be like us, and fail miserably to get you to understand what and how we view your products. Do you actually understand this? Clearly the you say you place the camera for emotional perspective, in most cases, you seem to get this totally wrong most of the time, then tie yourself up in the why - when it's so clear to us, but not to you. We try to explain but you constantly misinterpret what we say.

I'm not sure that you understand how people view media products, only how you do?

You cannot understand the 180 degree rule because you don't respond the same to the visual shock we get when to goes wrong. You are fixed on your movie making by numbers process. You don't have no gut reaction, or planning initiative to help you. You take advice from experts and idiots and are unable to process 'worth' when it comes to advice. You use the same phrases over and over again to the extent you are very predictable. "You've been told" and "so what you are saying" feature heavily and usually what you've been told is lacking context for accuracy, and you misunderstand what we're saying - over and over again. we tell you to forget the rule, and you fight against it, then we point out why and you agree, but then expand on it and ask again, will this work and we say no? Ten minutes later you're back on it again.

We cannot cope with this - it's frustrating and after a while, it's a bit insulting to us - having advice continually questioned and ignored - then, you come back a week later and ask again, and get the same answers. People often ask questions and you totally ignore what they say and just push and push your points waiting for us to say - "OK Ryan, you're right, everyone else is completely wrong. Go ahead with your idea and Spielberg will move over and offer you his seat".

whenever I see it in movies, I am never confused.

The difference is that they know what they're doing and you don't.

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-people-ask-for-advice-but-dont-take-it


They don’t feel able to act upon the given advice (fear, lack of self-confidence, etc)

People take the chance of asking advice, hoping that someone else will say what they’re thinking and validate them.

People can feel good about discounting the advice they disagree with by deciding to themselves that the giver of disagreeable advice is stupid and they know better anyway.
Seems like the over riding reason Ryan wants to make his own movie is because wants to do things his way, he doesn't want to be told what to do, and yet he lacks the ability to do things so he resorts to asking questions because but doesn't want to give up control and follow advice. So we get these circular conversations.

Oh it's just I was told on here before to use my own gut reactions and my own instincts. But is that not good, and I should not trust my gut and listen to what other people say then? Sorry, I don't mean to come off as rude on here. I greatly appreciate all the advice and feedback!

It's just whenever I try to do things my way, I am told it's wrong, so if I don't use some kind of established guide, then what should I do?

At the moment you're at the level of a first year film student making their first film, your gut needs to learn learn its feelings.

YES!!!!! Gut reactions, instinct, that positive feeling - but you don't trust your gut, and get positive reactions to the worst bits.

Oh it's just I was told on here before to use my own gut reactions and my own instincts. But is that not good, and I should not trust my gut and listen to what other people say then?
You seem to use advice/rules only when they support what you want to do. Or you make it an either/or choice, with no in between.

Oh okay, well the reason why I sometimes do not use in betweens, is because a lot of times, the in betweens have problems, or holes in them, so I figure you can either do it one way or another, cause all the in betweens each have their own problems as well. Unless I am not seeing something.

When you say I only use advice when it supports what I want to do, if I am taking advice when it doesn't support what I want to do, won't that create problems though, cause I am trying to apply a method that will support what I want to do?

I think what my problem is though, is that in the past, when I get to the location to shoot, I will abandon a lot of the storyboards, because I feel that those shots will be tougher to get, so let's just improvise and do these shots instead... But by abandoning the better shots, I have chosen shots that were easier to get on the fly, but they end up being emotionally incorrect.

So I feel I need to resist that temptation to change shots, and just go with what I had originally I think. Or at least that is what my gut tells me, is to go with the originals cause the are better than changing everything on the fly.

You seem to be more concerned about the shots, as if they alone carry the emotional content, rather than the all the other elements combining together to create the emotion..

There seems to be a far amount of B.S, in your argument.

What you seem to be saying Ryan, is that when it gets tough, you take an easier route, and that has always been a route to averageness. Compromised locations, scripts, actors, lighting, sound, the list is comprehensive. If you go to a location - if you abandon the storyboard and improvise, why bother with the planning at all and wing the entire thing? If you plan properly and go equipped why would you be unable to make a shot work? Just means the planning was crap doesn't it?

All your comments are the kinds of rubbish my students used to come out with when their real issue was lack of skill, over confidence, poor understanding, laziness, willingness to accept compromise, and critically important a personality that encouraged lack of respect. They'd turn up and discover all their cast and crew were late, or didn't turn up at all. The good students would NEVER be let down, and always managed to get good performances from their crews. You seem to sadly be on the losing team permanently. You lose cast, crew, locations and your attempts to fix it are inept.

Look back at the time wine movie. Everything we've commented on in the months it has been brought up - it was just a train wreck before you even finish shooting. Have you completed ANY movie that has been well received? Everything so far has been trouble.

If we could convince you that your skills really need developing and your person in charge status toughened up, you'd do much better. In one of the thousands of posts you mentioned somewhere 2001 A Space Odyssey. There are dozens of youtube breakdowns. every scene and perhaps shot looked at under microscopes. The Director was wanting very strange things from the cast and crew, but he managed it. Don;t copy his movie content - study his way of working. Study how and when he changed tack and sc rapped the plan and where he rigidly stuck to it and why!

Oh I got a lot of well received feedback for the Battle Damaged Souls one so far.

The thing about me unwilling to compromise though; whenever I have compromised before, it hurt the movie though.

The timewine for example, the location was crap, as pointed out, because I compromised. So is compromising a good thing, if it's going to come off as compromised on screen?

For the next project, I figure if I don't get top notch actors and a top notch DP, then I am not going to do it, cause otherwise it won't be good, but is that the way to go, stop settling for less? Or at least this is what I was told by other filmmakers I worked with before, that I need to get people with better acting and DP experience, for a better product, if that's true.

Or is up to me to make the DP better and make the actors do a better job, rather than get better ones for next time?

On the budget you've currently got there will always be compromise, it's more a matter of knowing if it's a good compromise or a bad compromise/

Oh okay. Well I was hoping to cut down on establishing shots again as a compromise. For example there was one person who's movie shoot I helped out on where he wanted to have protesters in front of a building protesting, but instead of showing the protesters, the whole movie took place inside the building and you could just hear the sound of them outside the windows.

Since my current script has some protesters in, would the same effect work as a compromise?

How should I know? I don't know the story or the context.

Yeah I know what you mean. How does a director know if something will or will not work in context of the their story, if their are no rules? Do they just do what they feel, and hope for the best, when it comes to audience reactions?

There is a structure, the world of the story (this will have it's own rules) and the needs of the characters, the director presents those as they see them in a production and based on their experience of what works and doesn't. You don't know what the audience's reaction is actually going to be until it's presented in front of them, at which point shows can die or be a huge success or be something in between..

What works at a certain time may not work 10 years earlier or 10 years later or be rediscovered a 100 years later as a truly wonderful piece of work.

Is there any way of being more sure what will work, and what will not compared to just showing it an audience, and blindly hoping for the best?

You have to do the 10,000 hours and even then you can be wrong.

PS I read that whole "10k hours" thing was based on a single study of like 20 Cello students.

Okay thanks, I probably done that many hours or more over the last near decade, but I can keep trying and just try to guess what will work as much as I can.

Guess? That's silly. there is a big difference between guesswork and logical reasoning. If you guess, no wonder things go adrift. You learn from experiences and then use this to make decisions. Guess work is futile when time and money is involved.

I’m guessing he’s not good at filmmaking.

If you've spent 10,000 hours learning, combined with the type of questions you're asking, I would reconsider your plan to direct a feature film.

On a more positive subject was watching Tom Antos video about budget filming.
https://youtu.be/TRLtcbREXkA

Guess? That's silly. there is a big difference between guesswork and logical reasoning. If you guess, no wonder things go adrift. You learn from experiences and then use this to make decisions. Guess work is futile when time and money is involved.

Well do other filmmakers actually write down all their hours of filmmaking and learning over 8 years?

But I think I can do a really good job, if from now on I get much better actors and a much better DP and PD, to help make the production better and more convincing.

Write it down? You lost me! However your other statement is the most sensible thing you’ve ever said. If you get better actors and somebody who really understands composition and camerawork and lighting then that’s a huge step forward. Those two elementals ca often save the project BUT as your projects are personal you need to step back and give them creating freedom making you more the producer not the director. To make it work your directing style needs to change to give them freedom. It’s going to cost you!

I would also put an editor into the mix, a feature film isn't the place to learn this job. .

I think Ryan is being literal in taking the 10,000 hours to become an expert by asking if people count the hours over 8 years of film making. Rather like the way pilots log their flying hours, one point about this is the quality and how demanding those hours are. You can do lots of undemanding flying hours or you can do less hours, but they're always pushing up your flying skill levels. It's also possible to lots of hours, but pick up bad habits, because you're not getting regular check flights/ simulator sessions where you can be corrected..

Being too literal is probably also holding him back, with the need for rules for every situation.

producing media products does rather need attention to detail and an understanding of communications ranging from the most subliminal messages to the most overt. Very tricky for Ryan in differentiation terms.

When I got my first teaching job after qualifying I discovered I was quite good at designing and delivering products that I was actually not that skilled in. I was able to do the research, then produce quite effective work using it. Perhaps my one really developed skill, actually.

The first subject I was given was A Level Communication Studies - and the research I did was very interesting and worthwhile - lots of educationally advanced research into how people communicate, some of it fascinating (and lots very, very dull). It was a really good basis for understanding media products of all types. I loved teaching it - made far more sense than the arty content of film and media courses, but the basic knowledge was identical. Making movies requires the audience to receive enough information without distortion for the originators intention to be fully understood. You cannot measure understanding accurately, so in practice it's unlikely it ever reaches anywhere near 100%. Ryan could perhaps spend some worthwhile time reading the communication studies material because it would help the delivery process succeed better than it does at the moment. Oddly, communications theory is full of 'rules', but mostly they explain why it doesn't work, rather than does. Maybe some research into it would enable Ryan to track through a project and determine where the communication errors creep in? Look up semiotics - it's not exciting, but movie makers use it quite a bit.

Understanding how humans communicate would certainly help him.

I looked up skills needed to be a filmmaker and not surprising Ryan is terrible at all of them. So it’s not a matter of how much time he puts in. He also lacks creativity, sound judgment and the ability to evaluate his work...

5 Skills Every Filmmaker Needs
1. Technological Expertise
2. Flexible Creativity.
3. Written and Visual Storytelling.
4. Decisive and Problem-Solving Leadership. ...
5. Communication.

https://www.lafilm.edu/blog/5-skills-every-filmmaker-needs/

Write it down? You lost me! However your other statement is the most sensible thing you’ve ever said. If you get better actors and somebody who really understands composition and camerawork and lighting then that’s a huge step forward. Those two elementals ca often save the project BUT as your projects are personal you need to step back and give them creating freedom making you more the producer not the director. To make it work your directing style needs to change to give them freedom. It’s going to cost you!

Oh, well I contemplated this before, but other filmmakers I worked with said do not produce your first feature if you don't direct it because they have done that and they didn't have enough control in their productions by not directing them, and it lead to problems. They said at least co-direct, rather than produce and place the entire production in the hands of another director. Do they have a point?

No, producing and directing are two different jobs.

Just because you're the director doesn't mean you're any good at producing, that also applies the other way. However, you may find getting a good producer is difficult, although in your case they're probably more a production manager, since a true producer also gets the funding for the film,

There are loads of film producers who have never directed a feature film.

If they want to direct their film, they should've directed, although it depends on the politics with the funders. As has been said before, co-directing is entirely another game, which you may not be suited for.

Oh okay, well I was advised not to produce a much more costly project for me and leave it in the hands of another director, they said. But yes I didn't think I was that good at producing and wanted a production manager. I mostly want to direct rather than produce, but is producing the first feature and putting it in the hands of another director, the way to go maybe?

Ryan. You now need to ask a question.


Do you follow the advice these people continually give? It always seems to be flawed.
Or - do you make your own decisions and take the responsibility?

Look - let's be VERY blunt. We hint and we suggest, but we try to not put you off by being totally truthful.

It's very clear that there are a number of factors in your film making.

Your circle of friends and colleagues are not helping you.
They are taking advantage and you need to find a way to take charge.
Your skills as a film maker are undeveloped, and are hindered by your condition.
You are struggling to develop because of your inability to process information in the way it is presented.
You have severe deficiencies in your skill levels in many areas - but - you like planning.
It's your money, and you like planning - so that's a job you can do - production planning, management, budgets and scheduling. These things seem to suit your nature and ability.

You do NOT have the vision to be behind the camera
You do not have the technical skills to capture sound in any meaningful way
You do not function well in situation where judgement of craft skills is required. By this I mean your eyes and ears in the main. You cannot determine success or failure without input from others. They then confuse you and you try to rationalise their comments using your deficient knowledge and it goes wrong.

Get a vision person, get an audio person - find a real skilled director, and get some decent actors. This might mean finding somebody who can cast your movie instead of you. You don't have the skill set to judge acting in any way I can see.
Get somebody to script supervise - somebody with the ability to re-write being essential to convert what you write into something real.
Source a decent editor and perhaps a music person.

If you do these things there is a chance. If you ignore them, it will be another train wreck. That's blunt, but sadly I think, the truth. You have demonstrated that these jobs do not match your character and personality makeup. If you persevere - you will waste your money and make another timeline.

Sorry Ryan. If you need these comments explaining - any of your friends here will understand them and be able to explain them. I think all the people here are thinking exactly the same thing. We are all as one, and we are random people separated in the world who all have the same opinion it seems. You are the one who struggles with understanding us - we all understand each other perfectly. Do you see this? Can you accept it?

Some things are just impossible for some people. Wanting something very badly doesn't not mean it can happen.

I would say you guys are being brutal but perhaps brutal is what he needs to not waste $50k on what will almost certainly be a bad movie. I looked and he's started about 40 threads since early last January (when he started his first thread), with little to no growth in understanding since then.

Oh okay, well I figure that other filmmakers I worked for spent more that much more or more, on their first features, and eventually you just have to bite the bullet and do it I figure. But before casting of course, I need a really good DP who would want to work on the project, and still looking for one.

When you say filmmakers I have worked with, are trying to take advantage, how are they taking advantage exactly? If they are feeding me wrong advice, what's their gain?

Ryan - for goodness sake, do you not understand how life works?You have detailed over and over again things they have done - basic stuff like letting you down, or refusing to do things you ask, and the list goes on. They tell you things they know are wrong, or that they know you will misunderstand. They take advantage and offer nothing. Some advice is right, much is wrong and you soak it up like a sponge applying the same worth to everything. The gain is that some people like causing mayhem, they like to feed your rubbish, knowing you will take it at face value. It's mean and unpleasant - however, in their defence, you probably drive them mad. Think how you constantly ask questions here - with the time lag. I bet you constantly ask them things face to face, on the phone or by text on phones? They will get less and less reliable and consistent and just snap and tell you things they don't expect you to do, but you believe them.

Do not waste your money without giving the experts responsibility for their areas. You simply do not have the ability to stand on your own here.

Oh okay, well when I say they have let me down, such as dropping out and not showing up, I am not talking about those ones. I am talking about others who I have helped on their projects and others who have helped on mine, but the ones who did not flake out and leave the projects. I don't constantly ask them questions though. If we are doing a project, I will ask some questions that are required, but I don't constantly ask. What do you mean by a time lag, when I ask questions?

I can see his friends and family giving him support and encouragement. They probably hoped he would have figured out for himself long ago this wasn't right for him. Unfortunately sounds like Ryan could go in circles for eternity. He seems happy to take any advice or deceive himself as long as it supports his one goal, to make this movie. I could see people who care about him probably tried to steer him into screenwriting or direction not because he is good at it but because there is no financial risk. One thing is clear he ignores all the online advice and seems to only listen to this group of his. I'm guessing they are his only ticket to making his movies so he is in no position to question them.

Someone pointed out he could hire all these positions. While this would result in a better movie, what would the be left for Ryan to do and where is he getting all this money to bank role this? I imagine Ryan is the local Don Quixote, and it's probably easier to allow him to continue on his adventures then try to talk sense to him.

I can see his friends and family giving him support and encouragement. They probably hoped he would have figured out for himself long ago this wasn't right for him. Unfortunately sounds like Ryan could go in circles for eternity. He seems happy to take any advice or deceive himself as long as it supports his one goal, to make this movie. I could see people who care about him probably tried to steer him into screenwriting or direction not because he is good at it but because there is no financial risk. One thing is clear he ignores all the online advice and seems to only listen to this group of his. I'm guessing they are his only ticket to making his movies so he is in no position to question them.

Someone pointed out he could hire all these positions. While this would result in a better movie, what would the be left for Ryan to do and where is he getting all this money to bank role this? I imagine Ryan is the local Don Quixote, and it's probably easier to allow him to continue on his adventures then try to talk sense to him.

When you say what would be left for me to do if I hire all the positioons, isn't that what most people do when they are producing and directing a movie, hire all the positions? As for it not being right for me, everyone, not just friends and family, but other filmmakers I worked with, they say to go for it and that I would do a lot better if I had a better cast, DP and PD, to fill those roles. So I thought I would try that.

But as far as the people who tell me don't do it goes, every filmmaker says that this is normal, that some people are going to say don't do it, but that's normal and every filmmaker is told that. Do they have a point? I've also tried working other jobs, but I was told by people I know, that since this is the profession I want I might as well try, otherwise I will never know, and I will always be questioning it, if I don't try.

When you say what would be left for me to do if I hire all the positioons, isn't that what most people do when they are producing and directing a movie, hire all the positions? As for it not being right for me, everyone, not just friends and family, but other filmmakers I worked with, they say to go for it and that I would do a lot better if I had a better cast, DP and PD, to fill those roles. So I thought I would try that.
You don't have the money and no one creditable is going to want to work on that screen play you wrote.
But as far as the people who tell me don't do it goes, every filmmaker says that this is normal, that some people are going to say don't do it, but that's normal and every filmmaker is told that. Do they have a point? I've also tried working other jobs, but I was told by people I know, that since this is the profession I want I might as well try, otherwise I will never know, and I will always be questioning it, if I don't try.
It would be normal to tell anyone to follow their dreams. Just because you want to doesn't mean you have the ability. You've had sufficient time to prove you're good at this and all the evidence I've seen and heard proves the contrary. You haven't even gotten into a film festival let alone win an award.

Well I feel like I need other people to help. A better DP than I have worked with before and a a better cast. Are you saying they cost too much money? How do other directors afford them then when they are making their firsts, in order to get into festivals?

First time directors can have larger budgets than you do. The ones who get into festivals often have a lot more directing experience than you, they may be actors themselves, so get a good deal from other actors,

They may have worked in the industry, so are known and have good contacts, with a real producer working on their production.

With your budget, you don't have the funds to pay people on a feature film as complex as the one you're describing.

Also, your film doesn't sound like a festival film.

Oh okay, but I feel that I'm at a paradox cause I got to make a movie first, then get into festivals, then hopefully get recognition that way for the next, bigger project. But in order to make something festival worthy, I need top notch actors, and a top notch DP for that project. Otherwise I won't get into festivals.

So how can I get top notch experienced people to work with beforehand, in order to make a festival worthy product in the first place?

Well I feel like I need other people to help. A better DP than I have worked with before and a a better cast. Are you saying they cost too much money? How do other directors afford them then when they are making their firsts, in order to get into festivals?
Everything on the surface seems simple. Of course, if you hire professionals and you'll get professional results, but that costs money and isn't any guarantee of financial success. Let's say you spend 10k, produce a great film, enter into a film festival, win, you still haven't made any money you're actually in the hole for 10k, now you have to use that success to springboard yourself into a paying project that will get you out of debt and start making money.

Do you even perceive how much risk and how low the success rate there is in indie filmaking even if you're talented. Now replay that scenario without talent, weak cast, script, crew etc.

Making a movie is a business. Just like any start up small business the odds are it will fail.

Yeah I see what you mean and I think about that a lot. Would be the best method then to get a movie made with more experienced people then? Or what do you do, when faced with that paradox? I'm trying to get to making a movie with good professionals, without having to make more than one movie and thereby spending more money. How does one do that?

It's always a paradox.

On your budget you need to know really good actors who want to get the experience of bigger roles, who are willing to invest their time in a project they believe in.

However, it may prove difficult if your short films haven't yet been shown at film festivals.

Yeah I see what you mean and I think about that a lot. Would be the best method then to get a movie made with more experienced people then? Or what do you do, when faced with that paradox? I'm trying to get to making a movie with good professionals, without having to make more than one movie and thereby spending more money. How does one do that?
We aren't trying to crush your dreams or make you feel bad about yourself, that's the realities of indie filmaking. We can't be telling you anything you didn't already know. Truth is it's a hard business with no easy answers. You either have what it takes or you don't. The more honest you are with yourself the better off you'll be in the future.