Having a disturbing subject doesn't concern me, some of the best films have content like that, it's how you tell the story.

There are stories everywhere. If you've been working on this one for years and it's not happening, perhaps it's time to put it on the back burner for a while. Also, given your limited budget, it would be very compromised production. The emotions required would be demanding on your actors and you seem to have difficulty directing actors.

I would try to find a story that unique to your part of the world, your regional libraries may have material that you can dig out. That's where writers often find stories, just by rooting around and finding sources that spark their imagination.

Oh okay, I don't know what goes on in my part of the world that would be good for a movie though. That's kind of why I wanted to a do story that could happen in many places, without being locked down to a particular area.

I haven't been trying to make it for months, I only showed it to some other filmmakers I know a few weeks ago actually. But it seems lots of filmmaker experience this though, where they want to make a script but may have trouble attracting talent for it though, like Hitchcock did for Psycho, or Kimberly Peirce did for Boys Don't Cry, etc. So I thought it was a normal part of the process before you find the people who want to do it, and I haven't really started looking much yet since I only showed it to the filmmakers I've worked with so far.

I had to look up beta readers to find out what they were, and after doing so, I dont think its a great indicator of your idea/script quality. What about what someone here suggested, sending the script to one, or even several of the pro script readers who can give you feedback from a professional standpoint regarding whether this thing has a chance of going anywhere? Maybe it costs way too much to be worth it but maybe it doesnt and you could spend a little money now to save a lot more later (by diverting your energy toward a better project).

I confess I did not watch all of Timewine, but I sort of get the gist. It seemed like kind of a cool idea. So you have good ideas (current project is probably not one). In that sci fi/sci fi adjacent genre there is a low budget indie called Primer that got some acclaim. Made for something like $7000, next to zero special effects. They found ways to convey their ideas through clever storytelling and writing and didnt need blood, gun fights, car chases, explosions, flashing lights etc. You could maybe come up with a concept like that. And scifi can be a marketable genre, as I understand it.

Oh okay, I actually tried coming up with a script a feature length script for Tinewine before, but it's about guys who get rich through time travel, and I don't think I could afford rich exotic looking locations. That's one of the reasons why the short failed I think cause of the locations not being convincing on the budget. But perhaps I could do something like that.

Actually I had a Santa Claus story script my filmmaking friends were excited about but I was talked out of it by some other filmmakers I asked, cause they said it would cost too much money for the sets, of Santa's factory, and North Pole locations, and things like that. But they were much more interested in that one before.

I was also asked to co-direct a sci-fi action thriller movie, planned on being shot next year, if the producers can raise the money for it.

I had a Santa Claus story script my filmmaking friends were excited about...

I was also asked to co-direct a sci-fi action thriller movie...

If in doubt, combine both. To wit:

https://youtu.be/0d8beSTsMjU

Oh okay, well it's not my script, so I cannot combine both :).

theyre being jokey with you I think, to justify posting that clip.

Maybe rent primer to see how those guys (who had never made a film of any kind before, and whose director boomed on someone else’s feature to learn how filmmaking works...sound familiar?) made a cool sci fi story without flashy anything (at least from what I remember...maybe there are a few fx shots). It could open your mind.

Yeah I saw Primer before. I don't have any ideas for a low budget sci-fi. I just figure that I might as well do the script I already have, since it's the lowest budget one I have. I mean even if a few filmmakers I know didn't want to do it, cause of the content, I figure I can look to others who are interested in who are more okay with such content. Even if I write a new script, I feel the same filmmakers might not want to make it will probably look for a new set of concerns they have anyway.

Plus I am set to co-direct the other one next year if they get the funding.

There are universal stories that work and they can be set anywhere. Who would've thought that Hallock, Minnesota, (which stood in for Brainerd in "Fargo)") was the place to make a thriller.

A great script will always attract people wanting to work on it, It's how you handle the subject that matters, I suspect the fact that people don't want to work on it means that the you haven't written a good script on this subject.

From the synopsis you've given, your script doesn't match the very small budget you've got.

Perhaps the "same filmmakers" don't think you're ready to direct a feature length project or may be they don't want to make darker films. we don't know. From all the forum messages, you don't seem to have the living off your wits quality and doing with the flow required on a very low budget film.

You should bear in mind that the audience for a dark film is usually smaller than that of one dealing with lighter subject matter.

Co-Direct worries me greatly.

Directing is a very solo activity. Any attempt to co-direct means conflict ALL OF THE TIME, or one being Director, the other the assistant - NOT, note, Assistant Director. Egos proliferate and it can never be equal. The weaker personality gets the blame for the bad bits and the stronger personality claims all the good bits. it always ends in tears, or a dreadful production. It will be conflict way before you get to shooting. A really crazy idea. I suspect Ryan, that in your circle of friends and work colleagues they're after a gofer. Directors need to make spot decisions. If the decisions in Scene 2 that your co-director make then impact you in Scene 3, you have to change yours - and during that discussion you'll be told how critical it is that the hero does not do X, as this will wreck scene 4 that he will shoot late and it's imperative you don't reveal this. Of course, you need to change but cannot make the on set decision without their input.

Absolute madness in your circumstances. Don't do it. It's a bit like second unit stuff. The director of that has very tight specific briefs, and they cannot go outside it. They're not co-directors, they're second unit directors which is totally different. You cannot share a singular job role, that is singular for a reason.

There are universal stories that work and they can be set anywhere. Who would've thought that Hallock, Minnesota, (which stood in for Brainerd in "Fargo)") was the place to make a thriller.

A great script will always attract people wanting to work on it, It's how you handle the subject that matters, I suspect the fact that people don't want to work on it means that the you haven't written a good script on this subject.

From the synopsis you've given, your script doesn't match the very small budget you've got.

Perhaps the "same filmmakers" don't think you're ready to direct a feature length project or may be they don't want to make darker films. we don't know. From all the forum messages, you don't seem to have the living off your wits quality and doing with the flow required on a very low budget film.

You should bear in mind that the audience for a dark film is usually smaller than that of one dealing with lighter subject matter.

Well I could do the Santa Claus script that they were much more interested in, I just thought that the budget for that is going to be even higher.

Is it not being able to find a good enough production designer, costume designer, or props, is that the reason, why my current script sounds out of budget? Another thing is, I am actually much more comfortable, making a movie on dark subject matter, than I am making a light one. I watch movies on dark subject matter all the time, and I am more comfortable in that area. I feel a lot less comfortable making a lighthearted movie, feeling like I would screw up how to handle it, more likely, than a dark one. Perhaps I should tell that to the fellow filmmakers, if they expect me to make lighthearted projects, that I feel I will not do well in that area, and am less comfortable with it. Another thing is, I feel that they are much more open to dark subject matter than they realize, cause some of our past projects have been just as dark, and they were excited about doing them. So it's strange how they just got lighthearted all of a sudden.

Or perhaps I can ask them for a compromise, that if they do the dark one with me, I can do the Santa Claus one after, if we get more money for it later on?

Co-Direct worries me greatly.

Directing is a very solo activity. Any attempt to co-direct means conflict ALL OF THE TIME, or one being Director, the other the assistant - NOT, note, Assistant Director. Egos proliferate and it can never be equal. The weaker personality gets the blame for the bad bits and the stronger personality claims all the good bits. it always ends in tears, or a dreadful production. It will be conflict way before you get to shooting. A really crazy idea. I suspect Ryan, that in your circle of friends and work colleagues they're after a gofer. Directors need to make spot decisions. If the decisions in Scene 2 that your co-director make then impact you in Scene 3, you have to change yours - and during that discussion you'll be told how critical it is that the hero does not do X, as this will wreck scene 4 that he will shoot late and it's imperative you don't reveal this. Of course, you need to change but cannot make the on set decision without their input.

Absolute madness in your circumstances. Don't do it. It's a bit like second unit stuff. The director of that has very tight specific briefs, and they cannot go outside it. They're not co-directors, they're second unit directors which is totally different. You cannot share a singular job role, that is singular for a reason.

Well I took the job cause it was an opportunity to co-direct a feature. If they cannot get funding for it, then I won't worry about it. Do you think that I should ask him if I can be a second unit director instead?

Unless you access much of the above for free. you're basically attempting to shoot a feature film on a short film budget. Have you done a budget for this project? If you're hoping for distribution there are also various insurances and contracts that you need to have in place these days. All of which adds to your costs.

I think most of what we have to say is wasted on Ryan. I don’t believe his ideas of making a feature film even remotely resemble what you would expect in the real world. Whether we’re talking about budget, responsibilities, equipment, standard practices... It’s like trying to have a serious conversation with a high school student who fancies making a feature film.

maybe but Im holding out hope.

maybe but Im holding out hope.

I must admit it’s a tantalizing hope... just when you think it’s in reach...

Like that script. The normal reaction to all the negative feedback would be to can it but his take away was to instead put it up for sale.

Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode when George has an epiphany that his life is in such a mess because he always does the wrong thing so to rectify it he should do the opposite. Maybe the best advice for Ryan whatever his natural inclination are he should do the opposite.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SclV-UWM4Gw

mayhap sir. mayhap.

Okay I will talk to the others I've worked with before and ask them if they would be open to doing some other script ideas of mine, if I write them, if that sounds better.

I had a talk with the fellow filmmaker I worked with the most in the past. He says that he will help me with a feature film but only if I use a script written by a professional writer with veteran experience, where the script will have no trouble getting funded. A script that everyone wants. He says that since a feature film is serious business, we need a script a like that, and he cannot do one that is not written by a professional writer.

So if he works with me on a feature, I will have to get a professional script. Do you think he has a point though, and I should spend a lot of the budget on buying a script that others want?

Hooray! We finally got there. A friend who knows what he's talking about, and you believe. Grab hold of this person and attach yourself to them, for they are the light at the end of the tunnel.

Ryan -- seriously, we have been saying this for ages.

Okay thanks, but how much would it cost to purchase a screenplay that everyone would want? If it's one that everyone wants, like my friend says I should buy, wouldn't that really up the price?

It depends on the writer, and the audience. If Spielberg wanted a script it would cost him an awful lot more than if it's a screenplay for an art film with restricted audience. It's worth what the buyer is willing to pay. The better the writer, the more in demand their products are, and up goes the price.

Okay, well it's just he said I should buy script that producers and invested would be kicking down my door to want to be a part of. But if the script is that good, that they would be banging on my door, would I be able to afford such a script?

Not to discourage but as I understand it part of getting investors/funding involves who is attached to the film, including the director. They will need to have confidence that a strong competent director is attached to want to invest, regardless of how killer the script is.

Producers and investors look at the overall package, if it's a commercial package they will want to be convinced that the director is experienced enough, if it's a scheme type production with less commercial funders, they may take the risk if the writer/director can demonstrate they have a strong personal vision for their script. Not the copy and paste stuff from other films.

They also surround the director with experienced people, who ensure that director keeps on course and produces a film that can be cut together, It's unlikely the director will have the final cut.

I suspect that such a script has to be of a higher standard that Ryan is currently producing.

Well I was told to produce a professional writers script, one that will attract a lot, but where can I find these scripts without paying more than I can afford though? Or how do other filmmakers do it when acquiring their first killer script that investors and producers will want to fund, if the director is the one who owns the script?

Hooray! We finally got there. A friend who knows what he's talking about, and you believe. Grab hold of this person and attach yourself to them, for they are the light at the end of the tunnel.

Ryan -- seriously, we have been saying this for ages.
Lol I know. Maybe he’s taken my opposite advice... naaaah

This is why many of us don’t think you should make a feature film. First there is all the technical and creative stuff and then there is all this business related stuff. How do you get a good script, how to attract a skillful crew, how do you convince investors to give you money when you’ve never made a feature film... It’s a gigantic undertaking.

But yeah a good script would obviously be the first step in the right direction. I still think a smaller project would be the best choice.

Seconded. Thirded. Seventhed.

Well I am still doing short films in the meantime but still have a goal to do a feature and would still like to search for good scripts though. I am just worried that if I spend so much money on the script, that I might not be able to attract funding for it after, to make the feature, compared to having a script that was free, and I can then use the money to make the movie, instead of buying the script.

Before getting involved in all of this Ryan should do some reading on the business side of making films and the process of development, since it appears he doesn't know much about it. Again, there are books on the subject and if he doesn't want to into that method I expect there are online sites that will give the basics.

It's something that most film courses don't cover and a forum isn't the place to go into those details, because at some point it involves lawyers, assignment contracts and more paperwork than can be found in the script itself.

At the moment, your feature current film budget is on the lower end of the development cost scale for a feature film. If you write the script you hold the rights, if someone else writes the script, agreements have to be in place for their writing fees etc, otherwise they will still hold the rights. All these things need to be in place otherwise you won't get distribution.

Sure I can read more books on it.

Well I talked to a DP, and he says that if we are shooting in locations where we cannot control the background colors, to shoot in monochrome, or make a color tinted movie, where a scene is only one color, like those old silent films use to be. Or just shoot black and white.

What do you think? Would a color tinted movie, decrease the marketability of the movie after?

If the colour is of such major concern, pure black and white would be the way to go. However, unless it's a conscious style decision and is integral to the whole film and how the story is told, I would stay with colour. It's a lot easier to market a contemporary story in colour.

The colour of walls isn't key to your story, it may be in your head, but it's secondary when selling your film.

There are some B & W films being shot, but they are more art house in nature than genre thrillers. You would need to set it in the 1920s to justify tinting a film.

The Lighthouse | Official Trailer HD | A24 - YouTube

Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking. My story is a straight up crime thriller, set in a modern setting, so not sure if black and white or color tinting is the way to go. As long as most audience members do not find uncontrolled color in the backgrounds distracting, like some filmmakers might.

An audience only worries about what it sees, not what doesn't exist. Unrealistic looking rooms with coloured lighting on the walls is going to distract more than the walls being white. Just keep the light off the white walls as much as possible and they should look pretty oppressive.

I'm surprised you're even asking this, for a director it should be a few seconds of thought before rejecting it. You're not making "The Last Picture Show".

Well it's just I want to find a creative solution but it seems that so many creative solutions are not good. Like lighting the walls, out, black and white, out.

So should I just embrace the locations being problematic, rather than trying to come up with ways to fix it then?

If you're making a realistic crime thriller the creativity is in the interaction between the characters, not the colour of the walls. You don't want the police station to look like at seedy dance hall.

That's true, it's just when I showed past work to other filmmakers, they found certain aspects of the background distracting that could not be controlled. As long as different lighting will help. But I was also told my story is has a bit of a comic-bookish tone, so maybe being a bit theatrical with the background decisions won't hurt, and I shouldn't have it totally realistic and maybe a bit of surrealism is called for, or at least I was told that by a couple who read the script. Not a realistic crime thriller, but a crime thriller set in mordern times, with more of a comic bookish tone, or at least that is what I was told.

Ok heres the thing...youre not making movies for other filmmakers, youre making them for regular people who dont know crap about filmmaking and cinematography and color theory etc. When filmmakers tell you all this stuff, they notice this stuff because thats what they do. “Audiences” are highly unlikely to notice green cars, the color of the walls or many of the things you are absolutely obsessed with unless you take it way over the top (making the entire movie bright pink or something). I guarantee you they WILL notice the quality of the acting, story plotting, and possibly writing. Seriously focus your energies/obsessions on that. Let all this other stuff come way later.

Also I though we decided to abandon crime thriller and find a better script?

Ryan you seem too concerned with the superficial and go over the top with everything to put your stamp on it. Concentrate on the basics just tell the story well don’t force things. It’s a bit like sports if you prepare and practice then execute during the game the results will take care of themselves. It is important to be aware of your background but often it only needs to be tweaked, different angle, shallow dof, light the subject so the background is darker. These are tweaks. Like acting when done well doesn’t draw attention to itself it’s natural.

Right. At this stage all your questions should be about writing/plot/character and directing actors.

Oh okay. Well I talked to some others and they said that I should continue working on the same script as well, and still look for other scripts in the process, which I am also doing. I was also asked to co-direct another project, but if that project doesn't get funding, or I cannot find a better script to afford myself, I was still planning on this one either way. But I was told by others that I should stick to the crime thriller genre, since they said I would do better in that genre, directing style wise, if that's true.

As for why I haven't asked questions about directing actors and things like that, this site seemed more geared towards the cinematography and technical side of things, which is why I was asking those kinds of questions more so. But I thought I had to worry about that too, and not just acting and writing only.

The color of wall is inconsequential compared to other aspects like the acting.

Thats true, this is a more tech oriented forum but I’m sure there are writing/directing oriented message boards out there too...are you posting the same amount of those types of questions on there as you are technical stuff on here?

You should know the type of story you're writing, if it's got a comic book style, that's very different to a crime thriller. A stylised comic book film is going to cost more in art direction/lighting than a realistic crime thriller.

Getting good performances in good, simple locations, with a well written script is the most you can hope for and that is tough enough.

If you are using good actors, the people get immersed in the story.If they distract, they look for other things. you are NOT thinking like a movie consumer.

Well the script is not high budget like a comic book, but I was told it was in it's tone though.

Is that what you INTENDED? Is that the movie you want to make? If not you should change it.

Oh well it's just I was told by some that the villains are comic-bookish in their criminal motives, and I should make them more realistic. But then others who read it told me that that's okay, and there is nothing wrong with that kind of tone.

So intended the script to be what it is, whether it's realistic, or a comic, or whichever. Perhaps I don't know the name of the exact genre, but I know what I intended in terms of story.

The villains can be comic bookish in their motives, a whole range of such characters exist in films, It's how interesting they are and if they're doing good - in their own eyes.

Oh okay, so maybe it's not a realistic crime thriller if they are comic book-ish in their motives then...