Going back to this topic title, I had to smile a bit when yesterday I had a two camera crew in from the BBC here and their complaint was that they WANTED deep focus and couldn't get it, so I suspect maybe, just maybe, this quest for deep focus is only in a small subset of cinematographer and video people.
Funny because we’re always struggling to get shallow focus but getting deep focus has its own set of challenges.

Sure I can try adding more narrative details to suspend disbelief, if that would help. One thing is, some readers had trouble being able to tell what certain characters were thinking, since generally, you are only allowed to write what the viewer would see. But I can still write some thoughts.

As for shallow vs. deep depth of field, I could go for shallow if it's less challenging for a DP, as long as the audience doesn't mind rack focusing between multiple characters, in wide shots.

You don't put character's thoughts in a film script, novels do that. You have to have subtext, character expressions and body language and your use of words to reveal what they're thinking. E.G. She throws him an angry look.

There are books, Linda Seger's "Making a good script great" might be worth reading for this.

Talk to your DP about shallow vs. deep depth of field.

Oh okay thanks. But even if you describe anger, or fear in looks, the reader still wonders some things about what is going on inside their heads still.

I will check out that book, thanks!

You can't show their thoughts in a film like you can in a novel, They're different mediums.

You have use the 93% that isn't the dialogue text and indicate that in your script, you can't see or hear on screen what's going on inside their heads unless you plan to use voice over. Sometimes you can indicate the subtext for the actor, but some actors don't like that.

You can put in things like "He stares out the stranger" or put "Angry" in the dialogue.

Are these readers script readers or your friends?

Some are friends, some are beta readers. A lot of it, is why did a character make this decision, instead of that decision... things like that. I think a lot of the decisions make sense, once certain surprises are revealed about the characters later, but the readers don't want to wait for surprises, and assume there are plot problems before waiting for the reveals, to be told why, or at least I think...

What they may saying is that your characters don't have a need, the thing that drives things along and the reason why they're doing things the way they do. This is more than they want to catch someone. In the story they may either fulfill this need or they won't.

It's Hannibal Lector in "Silence of the Lambs" fulfilling his need for a window with a view.

Ryan one good thing to do is pick a movie that you really liked and then read the novelisation. Most are done by pro authors. Then read a novel that had the movie made from it. Two that stuck in my head were the novelised blade runner which explained some things is not picked up on in the movie. Go the other was with 2001 a Space odyssey. So much in the book d SF unplugged and skimmed over in the movie for obvious reasons. If you analyse what came out you can see the directors reasoning. You realise some bits as irrelevant and which are essential and because they did a good job you don’t notice. Exactly the same with Harry Potter. However Clive cussler’s Sahara Git a ham fisted job that wrecked the movie. Apart from the very basic plot points, the movie was terrible. Plot, casting, even the feel were a very poor job. Worth doing this with movies vs books.

Oh okay, but I thought it wasn't a good idea to read books, if they have stuff in that the movie did not and just stick to the movies. I can try the Blade Runner one. I read the novelization of Mission: Impossible, the first movie, and it gave me a different perspective on some things. Makes me wonder if the writer changed some things around.

Well in my script I am told that the characters are not given enough motivation, but it's hard to give them more without the plot becoming ridiculous, so I have to figure out how to motivate my characters a lot, without the plot becoming over the top as a result.

No that’s wrong. The script should provide foundation information for the audience. They can read clues, the semiotics, you don’t need to explain. If they have trouble at home, then a five second clip of them dissmissing the wife and slamming the phone down is all it needs. We know he’s troubled and that explains later behaviour. We don’t need the scene at home with the row. If a movie had a novel first it’s stupid not to read it, as I mentioned before. Jonathan frames deliberstrr et ly didn’t watch thunderbirds before he remade it and that was a mistake. Of course reading the book generates a perception but a good screenwriter diets this out. The director chooses to follow the screenplay totally or incorporates original novel background.

Oh okay, well here's one example from my script. I want a group of police officers to get together and form a lynch mob, after an officer is murdered and the suspects get away, cause there is no evidence, cause they got rid of the forensic evidence at the crime scene.

However, I was told that one dead officer is not enough to motivate cop friends of his to for a lynch mob. They need extra motivation. So I thought what the character another character, who wants to see the villains get killed also, cuts off the head of the dead cop, before the body is found by police, and then mails it into the police station with a note saying it's from the criminal organization, taking credit it for it to spite the police, thus making the police believe it was them, and getting them all angry and riled up that their friends head was delivered out of spite.

So I was told this would work a lot better to motivate the lynch mob. But, I don't think that the character who wants the villains killed, would think of cutting off the head of the dead cop, in such a quick amount of time, before the police arrive though.

Maybe he could, but seems unlikely he would think of doing that, that fast. But maybe? That's one example, of how motivating characters, can make the plot too complicated, or too over the top, if that makes sense?

Look at LA Confidential for an example of such a scene. There really needs to be a corrupt culture in the police for things to go that far out of control.

Oh okay, well here's one example from my script. I want a group of police officers to get together and form a lynch mob, after an officer is murdered and the suspects get away, cause there is no evidence, cause they got rid of the forensic evidence at the crime scene.

The scenario doesn’t make sense because police don’t form lynch mobs. They might cover for each other, be corrupt but they don’t carry out personal vendettas as a group. There is no good way to present scenarios that don’t make sense. Like I said before you aren’t writing from experience you’re making up things.

Well that's just it though. How do you push characters to become bloodthirsty? I suppose I could rewrite it so that the cops decide to find some sort of evidence, and arrest them the honest way, but it just doesn't seem near as dramatic or high stakes though, as being manipulated into a murderous revenge.

The cops need to be in a world where the audience believe it's possible eg a concentration camp. If you're talking about the mounties, forget about it, come up with something else.

I'm talking about an average police department, where I wanted some of them in the department, to become desperate and crooked by the criminal events, if possible.

You're barking up the wrong tree, backhanders and general police corruption does occur, as does death by heavy handed restraint and shooting of innocent people out on patrol, but police lynch mobs are difficult to cover up in a modern western police station, they often have cameras all over the place, plus there's a police misconduct unit investigating deaths and the media all over it.

Modern Canada is the wrong place for this type of lynch mob, you need a dystopian society.

Oh yeah, I meant they would have to cover it up. The way I had it written was that they try to make it look like the villains were killed, cause they tried to shoot back.

Sorry, I don't believe this incident in your modern story set in Canada. I accept a similar thing in LA Confidential because all types of police corruption happened then and the cover up culture was extremely strong. The modern mounties don't seem to have that type of reputation, so you'd be struggling to get traction with the audience, regarding a police lynch mob.

There are dark acts in sectors that should be whiter than white, hidden by institutional cover ups.

That's true I suppose it's more of a western ending, but is there anyway to have such an ending and make it believable in modern times?

You have to locate your story in a place where that type of stuff happens.

Well for budget sake I can still have it be in a modern North American city. I can just have it so that the villains arrest them then, if that's better. I just thought it wouldn't be as unique then. What about a movie like The Fugitive, where something similar happened?

In that movie, the police think that the main character killed a cop, and then the Tommy Lee Jones character makes remarks about how the police will shoot him on site now. If this is fake, and the police would not do anything like this to someone for killing a cop, then why did they write it that way?

"The Fugitive" isn't set in a police station..

Police do lots of things they shouldn't and films have things aren't the same as in real life and US culture has s dead or alive element to it, Lots of American movies have cops shooting down crowded streets after escaping cars without, seemingly, any collateral damage.

As I mentioned look at "LA Confidential", you need to set up a city with corrupt officials and corrupt cops.

You should do more research on your subject to find a place that has a reputation, here's starting points.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_controversies_involving_the_Royal_Canadian_Mounted_Police#Torture_scandal:_Ahmad_El_Maati,_A bdullah_Almalki_and_Maher_Arar

You need to set up a world where bad things happen, the US has more of a reputation for these kinds of events, so if you're set in Canada you'll need to spend more time on setting this up.

...What about a movie like The Fugitive, where something similar happened?

In that movie, the police think that the main character killed a cop, and then the Tommy Lee Jones character makes remarks about how the police will shoot him on site now. If this is fake, and the police would not do anything like this to someone for killing a cop, then why did they write it that way?
If I remember, The Fugitive takes us on a long, long chase where Jones' character undergoes a gradual evolution born of days/weeks/months of frustration while cut off from his usual supports. And, anything can and does happen in the wild places - we know this, it's a trope we've seen before, that when people are off the leash in the wilderness some life and death stuff is much more immediate. And, after all, they never do kill the doctor. I may be misremembering this.

But, the point is, characters should, no, they must be seen as taking credible actions. For example, in your arc the cops can never credibly form a lynch mob, but, the cop we know as a hothead, who's been drinking, who's wife/girlfriend left him, who's broken up over the death of his kids... could go way too far in dealing with a suspect who dies. Cops who sympathize with him might cover it up - hey, we all know John is a good guy and the suspect was a sleazeball, right?

Otherwise, if you must maintain the setting in a north american city, you'd need to develop a different culture that occupies it, that is, you'd need to create a credible dystopia, which is much much harder.

Oh okay, but as far as character development goes in The Fugitive, when Gerard comments about how the Chicago PD will shoot him on site, now that they think he's a cop killer, the Chicago PD were not even main characters, that were not developed very much though.

So how do you write it like that, where you want to push supporting characters over the edge like that, without having to develop them much? As for the The Fugitive not being set in a police station, what's a police station have to do with it? The cops would still have to leave the station to go kill the suspects, just like in The Fugitive, so that doesn't make much of a difference, does it, since in my story, the cops leave the station to go get the suspects as well?

As for the Canadian setting, I could set it in a U.S. setting, if that's better then?

As a neutral observer it sounds like a terrible B movie thriller. It’s fine if you’re doing it as a fun project with your buddies. But I wouldn’t have any aspirations this will lead to anything career wise.

Oh okay, what about it sounds like a terrible B movie? Perhaps I can work on that, or keep that in mind.

Unfortunately, probably everything...the rape gang, the revenge, the cop thing, etc.

Oh okay. Well I didn't think it was a B movie in it's tone, since B movies have a certain tone to them, that I didn't think my script was going for.

I suspect by B movie they dont mean the definition youre thinking of, but more one of those dime a dozen direct-to-streaming crime thrillers.

Oh okay, well I don't feel that it is, or at least that is not my intention. I tried to make it more unique compared to what I've seen before. I've never seen a group of police get manipulated into revenge on a group of rapists in a movie before, for example.

I suspect by B movie they dont mean the definition youre thinking of, but more one of those dime a dozen direct-to-streaming crime thrillers.
Yeah that’s it.

It is what it is. Whether you realize it or not. At the end of the day you should be strong enough to listen to what others think but you should also do it if you have strong convictions.

Your basic premise is flawed, the cops have to deal with unsavory people of all sorts, but they don't take revenge on them and are unlikely to be manipulated into it, since they've got a justice system to do that for them.

There are lots of cases of police, perhaps more so in the past, but it still happens, believing their gut instinct (or just ambition) that someone is guilty and using a forced confession or other methods to get a conviction. That is more likely than a lynch mob in the police station, stuff like that will tend to happen out in the city, where a cover story can be created.

There's also films where cops take the law into their own hands e.g. the traffic cops in "Magnum Force".

Yeah Magnum Force is a good example, couldn't a few police be pushed into something like that?

Also, why wouldn't they do it out in the city, where a cover story would be created? Wouldn't they?

Another movie I can think of is City By The Sea. In that movie, a cop's son is framed for the murder of another police officer, and his ex wife (the son's mother) tells him, to get to his son first before the other police do, cause she knows the other police will kill him for she says.

But if it's not true, and the police do not do that, then why would a mother worry about her son being killed by them in that case, if the police do not do that?

You're taking a simplistic view of these things. I Haven't seen "City By The Sea" but looking at the Wiki plot there's family connections involving saving an estranged son etc. ( It deals with the family problems of a wayward youth and is set against a man trying to break free of his past.) In your case, you seem to have come up with a plot that's seemingly not driven by the characters, which probably why you're getting the not knowing what they're thinking feedback.

Oh okay, well motivation wise, the main character wants revenge on the villains for being raped. The main character wants to do this by manipulating the police into doing it for them, for the murdered officer. If a person wanted to do that as their plan, what could there realistically be the best way about going about it?

I mean it seems to me that plan makes sense. Rape victim wants revenge, because justice system screwed up. So, manipulate justice system itself to get the revenge for you, then you don't have to worry about being trouble for the murders, cause then it's their problem.

I suppose it boils down to one question. Can you write? I can’t.

Rape victim wants revenge, because justice system screwed up. So, manipulate justice system itself to get the revenge for you, then you don't have to worry about being trouble for the murders, cause then it's their problem.

It depends on how likely it is for the cops to murder someone. The more likely method is that the victim gathers intelligence and lays a trail for the cops to follow., but there's no guarantee that cops will murder someone.

The question is did corrupt cops cause the failure of the rape case? Rape cases are notorious in being difficult, so failure to get a conviction is pretty common. Why is this rape victim going further than any of these other victims?

Yes the victim does leave trail of crumbs. Even though there is no guarantee the victim still hopes it might happen.

As for why one victim is not willing to get revenge compared to the others, well the reason is is that one character cannot let it go so much compared to them. It's like that with all these revenge thrillers where the protagonist, cannot let things go as much as the other victims, and is just different that way.

But why personally does the victim have the need to do this?

Well I guess I need to ask the question why does the victim get revenge in other stories, where the victim gets revenge, for being wronged?

Like in the movie Revenge (2017) for example, why does the rape victim seek revenge in that movie? Why didn't she just leave it to the police to handle, and let them have final call?

Good characters will have a differing need for revenge to satisfy themselves. There's no point in referring other films, you, as the writer has to know the needs of all your characters, because that's what drives your story along.

Oh okay, I just use other movies help explain. The need is, after what the victim experienced, doesn't want to happen to others from the same group, if they keep on doing it and are not caught or stopped.

Why are you still banging away at this script? This is the same one that your friends weren’t interested in filming because of the disturbing subject matter and rape scene. Let me guess you’ve spent years developing it so despite people’s reservations you are determined to forge ahead. It’s hard enough to get someone to take on an exceptional script and this sounds like it’s far from that. You lack the objectivity because you’re too heavily invested. The fact you are getting similar feedback from multiple sources on and off this board is a red flag. It doesn’t ring true. What did I say about filming what you know.

Oh I just haven't found a better feature to film. There are some out there, and I can keep looking. Even if friends don't want to do it, I thought I would shop it around elsewhere, to others in the filmmaking community. Plus it saves a lot of money on budget to direct your own script, compared to purchasing someone elses. Like one friend told me, why not just buy a script that every producer is going to be knocking on my door and will want it? Well if there was such a script that producers all want, why would any writer sell it to me... I can't film what I know, cause I don't really know anything interesting to make a good script out of. I'm not one of those writers that can write just anything. I am happy to shoot someone else's script, but not seeing a lot out there, over the months though.

Ryan for goodness sake - be honest. You are a terrible writer. You've admitted all the problems you have and the story is too tough, too gritty, and too complex to contemplate. You haven't even worked out how to tell it, and you disregard all the comments people are making, plugging on with a project clearly few people want to be part of, or interested in. does this not set off HUGE alarm bells in your head? it really should. You seem to be totally unable to write a script. I also suspect that your own life experience has not got much in it that would enable you to even write a couple of pages of genuine high quality dialogue.

I know you really want to make this movie, but who will watch it, EVERYTHING is a compromise. Technical people, equipment, sets, locations, the actors - you just don't have any cohesive plan at all. It's all seat of the pants stuff. You write dead words for the very average actors to deliver in large spaces with no lighting and wobbly cameras on compromised grip equipment with dodgy boom ops and cameras with lenses that won't keep focus.

More camera crews in today from commercial TV and apparently I'm the person now in charge of the forthcoming BBC documentary being shot. Not the director, but effectively the monitor. I've got to match up agreed times and lengths with the BBC and the musicians Union and the crews union, as many of the crew will be in shot and the Musicians Union have rules on shot lengths that feature theormembers playing it -so I have to enforce the agreements. On top of this I have a time-lapse video to control and live video feeds and projectors. I need to be Voldermort and split myself into 7 I think.

To succeed in the creative arts you have to have talent that sets you apart. In most 9 to 5 jobs average is good enough. I think your time would be better spent pursuing a trade job in video and in your spare time you can experiment with this creative stuff. If you’re truly interested in screen writing here’s an interesting article.

https://screencraft.org/2019/09/30/10-things-i-did-to-become-a-professional-screenwriter/

Yeah that's what I am doing experimenting with it in my spare time. I mostly have been asked to do sound or act, for other people's projects some of them paid, some of them free. I would like to do sound more, but there are a lot more casting calls out there, than crew calls.

This is the same one that your friends weren’t interested in filming because of the disturbing subject matter and rape scene. Let me guess you’ve spent years developing it so despite people’s reservations you are determined to forge ahead.

This is the point where I have to interject and describe something that happened several years ago on another forum site in this industry (it's just a similar story; it doesn't involve Ryan at all).

Anyway, there was a poster who was very passionate about making a pet project that involved that same subject matter, had the same negative response from people he asked to help, and a large number of regular members on that forum tried desperately to talk him out of it. I saw all of that unfold and it was quite a cringe-fest.

I really hope we don't have to go down that same road here.

Well if I can't find anyone interested in making it then it won't be an issue then, would it? Another thing, is, movies that have to do with this type of subject matter, are made often, at least you see one every couple of years come out, if not more. So I didn't think it would be too difficult to generate interest hopefully.