I am making a nature documentary corporate video project. I am doing it for a friend, for pretty much free actually just to get another project under my belt and for the experience.

However, things have not been going well on it though, and I wanted other people's opinions on this situation.

As part of this nature documentary, my friend who I am doing it for, arranged to have this person come out and speak about it for an interview. Me and my friend discussed how the interview was going to go and she said that she wanted the speaker to speak directly into the camera as if he is hosting it, just for about maybe 20 minutes. I asked if we are going to ask him questions, and she said no, he will just speak as if he is hosting, and we'll cut back to him looking into the camera every so often. So we agreed to do it that way.

Three days later, we all go to the forrest, where we have been mostly shooting so far, and I wanted to go to the place where we were going to shoot him and set up the camera and sound equipment. I wasn't sure if her nature society company had a place in mind, or if were just going to pick one, I was good with either of course, it's their project :).

Now I wanted to set up before the man got there because I didn't want any audio or video troubles with the area they wanted to do it in and wanted to make sure everything was good of course. However, they didn't want me to set up ahead of time, because the spot they wanted to shoot in was about a 2-3 mile hike up hills, and they didn't want to bring me there to show me where it is, and then come all the way back to get him, and then go back up there again, after I had set up.

I didn't know where this spot was, so I couldn't go there with my equipment myself to do it. So that's understandable that they didn't want to do make the trip twice. It would mean that I would have to wait with them and then one the speaker arrived, we would all then have do the 2 mile hike together, and then the speaker would have to wait while I set up. Which is fine with me, if that's the best way to do it they felt.

The speaker is a native American man and he brought some of his religion to the shoot. Which is totally fine, if that's what they want, I am just describing him. So what he arrived and we all hike towards the spot.

When we got to the spot, I could tell there was going to be some audio issues in this spot that I wanted to address, and perhaps could pick another spot.

However, as soon as we got there, the man started praying and doing a religious native American cultural dance.

I thought maybe he was just going to do this thing and then we would get on with shooting the interview. I asked my friend who was there if I should be recording this, as I was setting up the camera. I said if you want me to record it, just let him know, so I can wire him for sound as well as set up other sound equipment and camera equipment.

My friend then said to me that I'm suppose to be recording him already before he started preying and dancing but I can't wire him for sound while he is preying and dancing. But I said I was unable to do that as we just started dancing and preying before I could even ask him to be wired for sound, or before I could even talk to him. He just started right after he got to the shooting spot. When she said I was suppose to start recording him before he started, he started preying and dancing just as we all arrived, so there was no time to do set up the equipment, wire him for sound and do any sound checks.

So I asked my friend if she could ask him to be wired for sound then and maybe he could talk go over a quick run through of what we are shooting here. Because I was under the impression I was shooting an interview, not praying and dancing.

I can shoot preying and dancing though, if that is what they want, it's fine by me. But she said that she cannot interupt him during it, and that I missed my chance to wire him for sound and it's over now.

She said to just get what I could so I got what I could but I couldn't even wire him so it turned out really terrible, quality wise, and I didn't even get the whole thing, because he started doing his thing, before I could even talk to him, and I wasn't even allowed to talk to him she said, after he started.

So he finished the prayer and dance and then left. I asked her, why not call him back to do this properly, since that is what all this was for. But she said that I missed the chance, and that her and nature society payed him to come out there, and it was now a waste of money possibly, since I got terrible quality audio as a result, and didn't even get the whole thing. So he left and she wouldn't ask him to do another round of it, and that was that.

So I feel she has some tensions with me now and doubts now, but did I do something wrong? Was I unprepared? I figured it was best to wire him for sound after we got to the spot, rather than hike up a hill for two to three miles, through bushes, and risk something going wrong with the equipment, if I tried to prep it before the hike.

So did I handle this wrong though?

There is always unexpected things and miscommunication with projects especially of a low budget nature. If you had talked directly to native American subject you would have discovered he wasn’t doing an interview but a prayer ceremony. It’s always better to get something. I would have quickly picked up the camera and start filming for use as broll even if I thought I do an interview after. The sound was inconsequential and you very well would have got a lot of noise if he was moving a lot.

Okay thanks well he didn't dance the whole time, I still could have gotten a lot of prayer dialogue while he was still, if they allowed me to point out he we should move to a different area, with better audio, and wire him and set it up. I actually wanted to talk to the native American man before shooting, but they wouldn't put me in touch with him, and just wanted me to meet him right then and there. They told me an interview though where he would speak into the camera to an interviewer, so from that, I interpreted that as an interview. I still tried to get B roll, but it's not very good, since it was not what he discussed and planned before.

What if from now one for this project, I tell her that she is to put me into direct contact with everyone else who will be on camera, and no further third party communication? Would that be out of order?

I don’t know what actually went wrong. Instead of trying to guess or ask us, you should have a constructive discussion with your friend to discover why it went wrong and how to avoid it in the future. I’m saying while you were hiking to the location you should have talked to him. Or once you got to there.

Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance
The 6 'Ps' - a popular maxim in the armed forces.

Almost everything that could go wrong, went wrong.

Forgive me Ryan, but you must learnt to grow a pair.

YOU are in charge of shooting video about something, with a crazy plan to talk to camera for 20 mins, in a place not of your choosing with no prep time and absolutely NO communication.

WHY DO YOU SAY YES TO THESE THINGS?

Surely with your continual desire to do new thing you must at some point develop warning bells. As soon as you got to the location and he started doing something - the person in charge should have done their stuff. You as the technical host should have stopped it - there are only three of you there for goodness sake, and if you didn't have the courage, you should have got her to stop it. Absolutely you should both have prevented him leaving. While you were walking there, did you travel in silence? surely you were discussing what was going to happen, and at t his point YOU should have laid downtime ground rules, especially with a subject who didn't know what was expected. "When we get too the location, I need to set up. Will both of you be speaking or just you? won't take long to get a microphone on you and do a couple of test sequences." rubbish really, but it warns them what is coming.


We've all been in these positions and you have to always have a plan B. As soon as he started, you should have sorted it. Yes, he could have taken offence, but the reason he was there was to do his thing, as it is you have no video, or rubbish video and unhappy Indian Chappy. Stopping him could have made him unhappy, but having no recording makes him even more unhappy.

This is not technical, it's managerial. You let people walk all over you and you must stop and take charge. They use you to get free video. This time they have no video. It's their fault for not explaining things, but you get the blame for not being a mindreader.

Next time - do some of the questions via phone text or email. That way you have it in black and white. The question is simple - so what's the plan? I feel for you but you are behaving like Inspector Clouseau.

This person is the one you're shooting the wildlife thing for? Totally clueless, and they're taking advantage of you. They have no clue, and their judgement is severely flawed. It will not end well! If there is money involved they will need a scapegoat, and I spy you!

So you are working for FREE for 'A Friend' who has PAID a native American to dance and pray for a few minutes with no briefing or discussion, after giving you completely different information, then blaming you when it went wrong.

I would walk away now as you are going to learn absolutely nothing from it apart from your own inability to assert yourself in your own area of responsibility. No amount of technical advice here is going to give you the skill to speak up for yourself and plan properly for your shoot.

You are being walked all over and given no respect at all!

Roger

The whole thing as described is odd. Did the interview never happen because:
Ryan didn’t talk to him or did the subject not want to do one. Or was the main goal to film the pray ceremony and the interview was incidental?

It’s hard to say whether Ryan is being taken advantage of or because he’s on the spectrum he doesn’t feel comfortable taking, interacting with people and reacting properly to situations. It’s also not uncommon for clients to not understand the technical logistics of a shoot.

Paul had good advice. The description of the job should be in an email. Even if it’s just a bulleted check list and a brief summary.

Seems like if you had everything set up you might still have missed part of it due to poor communication, expecting to film interview or monologue. Why no film of the hike to the site? Default to action.

We have to be realistic an honest dealing with Ryan, as he has clearly set himself a direction he wants to go and has his own difficulties which prevent him dealing effectively with many of the problems that he encounters. There are sometimes things in life that we would love to achieve, but often these are unobtainable for various reasons. The ultimate achievements that Ryan is aspiring to, need more than just technical information, they need an ability to make unilateral decisions based on weighing up the available alternatives, making quick decisions where compromises are needed and being able to direct people efficiently and with authority and respect.

These may be things that Ryan isn't yet and may never be comfortable with and we need to be helping him direct his strengths rather than confusing him with endless advice and alternatives that he may not be able to implement effectively.

His strengths from the incredible number of posts and replies that have resulted from his threads, would suggest that he would be a great asset in the industry in researching for projects and productions. He has a dogged determination to get the information he wants and can go into small details and a myriad of alternative directions, whilst still remembering where he wants to get to. That infinite patience and attention to detail would be a great asset in many situations alongside others that are good at implementing ideas.

Roger

Yep - I agree with Roger. One of my teachers always said repeated to students - always play to your strengths, and avoid your weaknesses.

Ryan is very keen to learn things, and his problems usually stem from other people either not appreciating they need to give clear steers, or those flowery "isn't this a good idea Ryan - can you do it? Great, come back when it's done" statements. Collating and researching is clearly something he's very comfy doing and asking here, and I think we don't actually mind this - many of these topics run to hundreds of posts and the signal to noise for other people's use is pretty decent I think.

People have over the months become quite comfy with trying to move Ryan on, and it's always good natured and while often confused, we do try.

A good friend of mine is very similar and I always have to remember to be factual, avoid jokes or silly suggestions because they just confuse. I do think his friends and collaborators seem to take less care than we do!

The odd part is Ryan seems to be determined to want to do things he isn’t suited for. He would be better doing a narrow job ie camera operator, script writer, location scout... Something that has structure and the tasks are laid out. He seems to be drawn to the opposite. Huge open ended projects with a million decisions like creating a feature film from scratch.

Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance
The 6 'Ps' - a popular maxim in the armed forces.

Almost everything that could go wrong, went wrong.

Forgive me Ryan, but you must learnt to grow a pair.

YOU are in charge of shooting video about something, with a crazy plan to talk to camera for 20 mins, in a place not of your choosing with no prep time and absolutely NO communication.

WHY DO YOU SAY YES TO THESE THINGS?

Surely with your continual desire to do new thing you must at some point develop warning bells. As soon as you got to the location and he started doing something - the person in charge should have done their stuff. You as the technical host should have stopped it - there are only three of you there for goodness sake, and if you didn't have the courage, you should have got her to stop it. Absolutely you should both have prevented him leaving. While you were walking there, did you travel in silence? surely you were discussing what was going to happen, and at t his point YOU should have laid downtime ground rules, especially with a subject who didn't know what was expected. "When we get too the location, I need to set up. Will both of you be speaking or just you? won't take long to get a microphone on you and do a couple of test sequences." rubbish really, but it warns them what is coming.


We've all been in these positions and you have to always have a plan B. As soon as he started, you should have sorted it. Yes, he could have taken offence, but the reason he was there was to do his thing, as it is you have no video, or rubbish video and unhappy Indian Chappy. Stopping him could have made him unhappy, but having no recording makes him even more unhappy.

This is not technical, it's managerial. You let people walk all over you and you must stop and take charge. They use you to get free video. This time they have no video. It's their fault for not explaining things, but you get the blame for not being a mindreader.

Next time - do some of the questions via phone text or email. That way you have it in black and white. The question is simple - so what's the plan? I feel for you but you are behaving like Inspector Clouseau.

This person is the one you're shooting the wildlife thing for? Totally clueless, and they're taking advantage of you. They have no clue, and their judgement is severely flawed. It will not end well! If there is money involved they will need a scapegoat, and I spy you!

Well the guy was talking and preying in his doing his and she was right there, so after a couple of minutes into it, I asked her, if you want me to record this I need to set up everything and wire him. So I asked two minutes in, but she it was too late and would not let me talk to him at that point. I asked her to talk to him for me, since she wasn't allowing me and she refused, worrying about interrupting what he was doing. I suppose I could have interrupted his prayer and asked him too, but I asked her to talk to him, three times, and she refused for some reason. I guess I just considered her to be the boss and she was in charge of the decision making but should I override her and take charge then, even though it's her expedition so to speak? I still took video of him doing his thing, it's just the sound is unusable since she gave me no time to set it up for some reason and refused to stop him when I asked her to.

Seems like if you had everything set up you might still have missed part of it due to poor communication, expecting to film interview or monologue. Why no film of the hike to the site? Default to action.

Oh okay was it really poor miscommunication since she said interview with him looking into the camera though? I thought she was pretty clear, but then when he got there, it was completely changed to something else it seemed, but I thought she was clear in what she wanted, then changed her mind for some reason, or so it seemed.

I did film parts of the hike yes. I shot them walking up the hill from further away. That's why I didn't talk to him as much cause I thought I would get footage of him walking there and then once we got there, I thought I would wire him for sound, but I didn't know that I wouldn't be allowed to to talk to him once we reached the spot.

Actually you sound at fault. It shouldn’t have been a secret the point of going to this location was to film the ceremony. You should have miced him up when you arrived and been ready to record. It’s not uncommon to have a change of plan. They must have had a conversation but you weren’t paying attention. Two minutes in wasn’t the time to ask if you should be recording.

It may have not been necessary to mic him up, outside in the forest? If he's doing the sort of thing I've seen on TV, it isn't exactly quiet, so did you not have anemics attached to the camera with cables - or is your DSLR unable to handle sound at all?

It may have not been necessary to mic him up, outside in the forest? If he's doing the sort of thing I've seen on TV, it isn't exactly quiet, so did you not have anemics attached to the camera with cables - or is your DSLR unable to handle sound at all?
I would have moved in close and used the internal mics and it should have been ok.

No my dslr cannot handle sound so i have other sound equipment, then sync it up later. But what i dont understand is, why was it such a big deal to stop him and then mic him in a better location, then start again?

I guess your friend was scared to do it Ryan - maybe on religious grounds, maybe on reasons to do with simply upsetting him.

I've had this kind of thing over the years where we're doing something with a 'big name' and something goes wrong and nobody wants to be the one to call a halt. I've got pretty good at getting a thick skin. The absolute worst for me was with a well known, long lasting music group, popular in the 70s and still going. A show at a theatre - 1400 sold out seats, and there was a problem at the end of the first half and the show could not continue. I had to walk out in front of the fans and say that due to reasons beyond our control the show was over, and NOT mention that as we'd completed the first half, they wouldn't be getting a refund!

Your friend didn't have the courage to stop it for some reason, but it's actually worse to know you need a take 2, but let them complete a useless take 1. The person doing it feels very cheated. Stopping them is annoying, but they do understand. doing nothing is the sign of insecurity. However - if he'd beens topped as soon as he started, not would have been a minor issue. Clearly he knew little about how it's done, and nor does she by the sound of it. In a way it's worse Ryan because she knows you and should have dealt with this for you, as you don't like the confrontational aspects.

A bit mean really.

Okay thanks. I just felt she was the boss and if she says no interrupting, than what she says goes. But if i shouldnt let her complete a useless take, what should i do? When i advised her that we should stop and reset she gave me this ' no please dont' look, like i was really putting her in a bad spot if i were to stop him. So what should i do then?

Make your point, quietly and perhaps in her ear. "we're not recording this, what do you want to do?" Do NOT take the blame. "I wish you'd told me he was going to do this" or "Next time remember it takes 20 seconds to get into record, so don't get hime to do things until I say I'm ready"

If you are going on a trek - tell them both that when they get to the location you need at least five minutes to setup. Tell them early and make it very clear how you need to work.

I am making a nature documentary corporate video project. I am doing it for a friend, for pretty much free actually just to get another project under my belt and for the experience.

Ok, so YOU make the documentary, YOU are the DP!


As part of this nature documentary, my friend who I am doing it for, arranged to have this person come out and speak about it for an interview. Me and my friend discussed how the interview was going to go and she said that she wanted the speaker to speak directly into the camera as if he is hosting it, just for about maybe 20 minutes. I asked if we are going to ask him questions, and she said no, he will just speak as if he is hosting, and we'll cut back to him looking into the camera every so often. So we agreed to do it that way.

Ok, so you were informed your friend wanted an interview and you agreed on doing an interview.


My friend then said to me that I'm suppose to be recording him already before he started preying and dancing but I can't wire him for sound while he is preying and dancing.

Really, what part of the term "interview" did your friend not understand?


I asked her, why not call him back to do this properly, since that is what all this was for. But she said that I missed the chance, and that her and nature society payed him to come out there, and it was now a waste of money possibly, since I got terrible quality audio as a result, and didn't even get the whole thing. So he left and she wouldn't ask him to do another round of it, and that was that.

Uh no, SHE missed her chance by not properly informing you.


So did I handle this wrong though?
If it went the way you characterize it then no you have nothing to blame.

You should let your friend know you make the doc, you are the DP and you and her need to discuss things BEFORE you start shooting scenes.

Ryan, homie, there is this weird thing that psychologists can explain better than I can where often, when you work for free, instead of being grateful to the ends of the earth and trying to make your job as pleasant as can be, clients treat you like crap (like this) and treat the whole thing as meaningless and like youre a nuisance for being there. I can almost guarantee if she knew your services were costing her $500, $800,,$1500, whatever for the shoot (not to mention post production) you would have several detailed meetings and had everything nailed down. It’s weird.

While all of that might be true I think Ryan takes a passive role. If at any point during the day he introduced himself and discussed the interview with the subject (which is standard procedure) he would have discovered that things had changed and he didn’t feel comfortable doing an interview or that he would first do the ceremony. “Hi I’m Ryan I’m going to interview you, I need a few minutes to setup and I’ll mic you.” Even when he first started the ceremony “I’m sorry to interrupt I’m not ready. I thought I was going to interview you?”

Last minute changes happen all the time. His friend must have had a conversation beforehand. Yeah she should have said something but I do many events where it’s no one’s job to hold your hand, be aware, asking questions and be involved in what going on. Who’s fault is it if you’re not engaged in the process. Who’s the professional Ryan or his friend? She probably doesn’t know the first thing about filming and yet he differed to her.

Oh okay, while he was praying I said to her we should stop him and so I can make him and set the camera up and she kept saying no, its too late to interrupt him . I made like I was going to and she shushed me. I could tell from her reaction that she was going to not like if I did so I decided to shoot him without interrupting him. Should I have just done it anyway, even if she would have been embarrassed or mad about it?

I figured well if she doesn't want me to, she's the boss and her's thing, unless that was the wrong way to look at it.

The reason why I didn't talk to him during the hike, is because I was shooting the mic from further away, cause she wanted footage of the hike, so I thought I would just talk to him after I had gotten some good footage of the hike. But then he started preying and she said it was too late now.

Oh okay, while he was praying I said to her we should stop him and so I can make him and set the camera up and she kept saying no, its too late to interrupt him . I made like I was going to and she shushed me.
Well, that I can understand.
You obviously do not interrupt anyone who is praying!
It's not an act that you can do with takes.

But the root of the problem was miscommunication, who introduced the word "interview"?

I think she did on our meeting a few days before shooting, if I recall correct.

And that's the thing though, is how do you get someone who is religious to pray as if they are doing takes and following direction for camera?

I thought well if she doesn't want to interrupt him, I will just wait till he is done, and then ask to ask him do it again, after I've set up, but she wouldn't.

I was thinking maybe I can suggest to her to get him back in to do ADR over some of his lines, and the rest can be just voice overs, but will he have a problem doing ADR and voice overs for prayers do you think?

And SHE let him go, knowing you had nothing. Next time, Ryan, be busy and unavailable. She also wasted your time don't forget. You seem to have loads of film making friends who know nothing about making films. How important is what you learn from them? You're learning lots of problems that's for sure! Our friend made a real mess of this one. I would simply forget all about it and get on with other things. Leave solving this one to your friend, as its her problem, not yours. She might threaten not to pay you ...... But of course she can't do that, because she isn't!

All the advice here is solid. I can only add that I believe the woman is an incompetent client given that she didn't communicate those late changes to you - a fairly straight forward matter.

Not the first time a 'nature hippie' has had marshmallow for brains. The nature (forgive the pun) of their modus operandi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_operandi) keeps them from having to grapple with proper critical thinking. Fire her as a client and never waste your time again. Firing her is more empowering than you will realise right now, so just do it.

Andrew

Okay thanks. Well I want to finish it cause I don't want to have the reputation going around as someone who quits half way through though.

She said she wants to interview some more people for it now. I was thinking telling her from now on I should be all set up before bringing the person in just to make absolutely sure that nothing goes wrong. It would mean that if she wanted to do in a specific spot deep in the forrest, that she would have to make two hiking trips. One to get me there to set up beforehand, and the other for her to go back and bring the speaker back to me once they arrive.

It's double the trips but it's worth it cause it means a lot less will go wrong, so is it too much of me to ask her for that?

My only advice is whatever you decide, decide it IN WRITING. Email is at least something, but a simple contract would clarify for everybody what's expected when so that you can say to her, should something like the original incident happen again, "Look, madam, it says RIGHT HERE that were were supposed to do THIS, and you were to inform me of any changes to that plan."

Dig?

She said she wants to interview some more people for it now.

Sounds like scope creep to me, and beyond the initial indication from her of what will be involved. You may well never escape form this slow motion horror.

Recommend that you reply with "Unfortunately I have not set aside room in my schedule for this as I didn't know about it prior. Here are your video files from what has been shot to date. This will ensure that your project is not hampered by my non-availability. Your next cameraman or editor will be able to immediately make use of them."

Yup. Get out as fast as you can. Run!

Andrew

Okay thanks. Actually the last shoot went better than I thought it would and it looks like this thing is turning around. So depending on her and her organizations reactions, I will wait and see perhaps...

The last shoot??? You mean you haven't left yet?

This is an even better time to "get out as fast as you can" since you are leaving on good terms.

Andrew

PS. Try getting her to spend hours of her time doing something you need, such as housework etc. And be able to add on extra days of work as you decide that you need to have additional work done. For free.

I'll add 'more shoots'? I thought this was for free.

I read here years ago back in the Craigslist Years & it still holds true, "Free work only leads to free work'. You're wasting your time on this. I mean, maybe it'll work out but they sound like a total amatuer. How do you think this thing will be put together and edited? Well? And marketing? Just a YT/FB video with 400 views.


Wish you well man, but I would not nor never (unless very legit charity/organization/cause) work multiple days for free. Many here have warned you.

I think Ryan’s also editing it.

I'll add 'more shoots'? I thought this was for free.

I read here years ago back in the Craigslist Years & it still holds true, "Free work only leads to free work'. You're wasting your time on this. I mean, maybe it'll work out but they sound like a total amatuer. How do you think this thing will be put together and edited? Well? And marketing? Just a YT/FB video with 400 views.


Wish you well man, but I would not nor never (unless very legit charity/organization/cause) work multiple days for free. Many here have warned you.
Normally I’d agree but Ryan strikes me as green as green can be. If he can learn anything from this free project then it was worth. Working with your buddies on your own personal indie film (which I believe what he has been doing) will leave you woefully unprepared for real world paying jobs. Better to f-up on a free gig or your paid gig will become free after you refund the client and damage your reputation in the process.

Normally this job would have made more sense if his goal was to become a wildlife filmmaker. He would be gaining valuable experience on the process and equipment needed.

Fair point.

Gentlemen, we have all spoken at length and I would now like to propose a toast.

SFX: beers being grabbed from their icy surrounds

"At toast, to young Ryan and his forthcoming disaster. May he learn well."

CROWD: Hear hear!

:-)

Andrew

Yeah I'm editing it as well. I think shooting is done now.

Normally I’d agree but Ryan strikes me as green as green can be. If he can learn anything from this free project then it was worth. Working with your buddies on your own personal indie film (which I believe what he has been doing) will leave you woefully unprepared for real world paying jobs. Better to f-up on a free gig or your paid gig will become free after you refund the client and damage your reputation in the process.

Normally this job would have made more sense if his goal was to become a wildlife filmmaker. He would be gaining valuable experience on the process and equipment needed.

By green as green can be are you saying you think I may be rich?

ER, no. Green as in a new shoot, with no idea how far away the sky actually is!

to clarify, green in this case means new to something or inexperienced.

Oh okay. Well the shoot is going a lot better now, I think, and hopefully the final edit will turn out well. I might have to do go back to the location to get some of the voice over to match, but I think shooting is done.

Is there a "finish point" in the production that has been nominated and agreed to?

Andrew

Why would you need to return? Actually I'm just wondering? You did the voice over on location?

Assuming you did - which is a bit weird, then you probably don't need to go back if you have ten seconds or more of sound recorded on location with no speaking - you just produce a loop track, then go somewhere close and as silent as possible and record your voice over extras there, then blend the location sound loop with it. Assuming the looped clip doesn't;t have any regular sound like a bird chirping, which wrecks it, you can just use this to match the audio.

Personally - every time I have recorded dialogue on location it never works, because often you simply don't know what it should say until you see the edit. The only time it worked for me was a very late night shoot where the VO was a whispered commentary on what we could see in the night vision. I still thought it would have been better done back at base, but it did work.

Oh I would just go back to get the reverb of the sound bouncing off the hills to match, as oppose to trying to create the reverb using digital effects. I thought going back there to record it, could save me time, if it would work.

Why wouldn't the dialogue recorded on location work though?

As for a finish point, shooting is suppose to be done, so I think we are good and have enough, it's just I am waiting to hear back from me on a draft I edited.

Ryan, you're joking aren't you? Please say yes. Reverb bouncing off hills? As in echo reflecting off rocks? If you're serious, we better start a new topic on the problems of recording voice overs. The reason movies don't record dialogue on location and spend ages in time and money rerecording it is because locations sound is rarely good enough to use. This applies to voice overs too. Out in the real world, even in wilderness, it's seldom quiet, or controlled. You have a bit of googling to do. Reverb and echo. Both relocation based but they sound TOTALLY different, and their mechanism is different too. My mouth dropped when you said reverb from the hills.

There are two elements. If you clap your hands in your living room at home, your recording shows a clear peak when you clapped followed by the arrival of reflections. It also contains that pesky clock ticking in the room next door, the odd dog barking a road away and an airliner passing at 30000ft. In your studio you have the clap and minimal relations, no clock, plane or dogs. Back to your woodland area and you need to recreate the sound so your contaminated voice over matches. Those crickets might not be chirping, the dog might be a heard of cows and maybe the bunch of frogs have moved in. Surely if you MUST use the original, you can recreate from out takes, enough of this rubbish to sort it out. If you recorded down a cavern, then you'd need reverb and electronic effects, but you went somewhere with a real echo, not reverb????.

A classic Ryan u-turn with suddenly critical info being slipped in right at the end.

You really did record your audio in a canyon with a distinct echo? Your film school really did an awful job on your course. I wonder what on earth the course covered, because they seem to have missed out so many critical areas, and now they didn't even cover why voice overs are recorded in studios and not live, and I assume dialogue wasn't covered properly either. Sounds like a course designed by Mickey Mouse, all pizazz and no proper content.

I think there was another thread all about that topic...recording Foley or hard Fx or whatever the proper terminology is on location vs studio to save time in post.

I tried to mic him but the nature society person intervened. I think it was because of his religion he didn't want to be miced, and just started preying and dancing before letting me mic him.

It was too windy that day for the DSLR internal mic to record anything, and if you listen to the sound on it, all you can hear is distorted wind and you cannot hear what he is saying. The mic sound would have worked though, cause I miced another person for an interview before in the shoot, and it sounded well.

Crazy! What exactly did the nature society person think was going on?

I'm not clear what you'd be going back for? If you have decent footage, then record the voiceover anywhere that sounds good and is quiet and convenient for both. Do you have any voiceover material recorded? As in audio with no matching face in picture. If you don't have any - then record your entire VO in one place to maintain audio consistency. As for miking - it really needs planning before you do anything. You can slap mics on religious people with no problems at all if you do it with due reference for their status. I've done Catholic, Protestant and Muslim folk with no bother whatsoever, and I've even put mics on naked people at a naturist convention. It just needs you to be professional, explain what you need to happen and find a way to do it.

I have a feeling hes going to try to go back and recreate the religious man’s audio.

I don't know about 'recreate', but the idea was to have just the footage of him preying and dancing with a separate narrator, talking about what he is doing. If that sounds good?