Hi Guys

We have just had the biggest wedding videographer here shut down and forced into liquidation by the tax office leaving a trail of destruction ! Shoots as far back as October 2018 have not been delivered and brides that have paid between $5000 and $6000 up front for video/photo packages have little chance of getting any money back! The moment you start playing in the big league and hiring staff and drone operator etc etc (all their staff lost their jobs of course) and demanding big deposits if things go wrong there is no way you are likely to recover financially unlike the solo operator who works from home and normally has small or no overheads

How are brides protected from the bigger operators or do they just hope they are financially sound???

Hi Chris,

It's no more different than if any vendor or even the venue goes bust. There are insurances couples can take out that will cover their losses if the worst should happen. I think many do, as their Wedding is a lot of money. It also covers late cancellation due to any severe illness that could preclude the Wedding taking place. Bit like holiday insurance really.

As for the Videographer, the biggest you are, the more likely you'll be checked up by the Tax office. Especially if you're employing people. I admit my paperwork isn't as organised as it should be, but if anything I tend to under value my expenses in my tax return. Just to be safe in case I've added something I shouldn't.

There are advantages to bring a solo operator.

Couples should always get wedding insurance. It can be as little as £50 here in the UK.

We've been audited. They found nothing just like we told them and it really isn't fun. Costs us a fortune to have the accountant produce all the bits they ask for.

Never mess with the tax office folks. They will always get you. Pay your taxes!

Surprised that hasn't happened. There's a number of photo/video companies in the states, a good amount are close to national. Did work for a few of 'em, one wouldn't surprise me if they do close down. Just unorganized, not even contracts for me to sign just emails & texts & ship it off.

There was a wedding dress company that shut down, Alfred Angelo which must've been fairly big. Brides were left outta luck. On the news some showed up banging on the doors as their wedding were near, & I think the stores had some in stock. Davids Bridal also filed bankruptcy but I think just restructuring, no orders were affected.

There is virtually no regulation here for wedding suppliers! You buy a camera and voila, you are a professional wedding videographer. This guy started off on his own and then moved into hiring freelancers so he could do multiple weddings every week ...He was given a final demand to pay his outstanding sales tax debt of $378,000 (it's supposed be be paid monthly as it's money you collect for the tax office) He ignored it and continued trading ..in fact when he was closed down last Monday by the tax office he was still taking both full payments and deposits from brides just 2 days earlier knowing full well he could never deliver!! It's said brides who have paid and either not received their media or even had their wedding amounts to a $400,000 loss and little chance of getting anything back!!

To be fair, being caught by the Taxman is an honour shared by many large companies, some actors and well paid TV Presenters too have been caught out. Even Amazon and Google have had their share of large tax bills. Fraud is another thing large legitimate companies can be held accountable for. Regulation isn't the issue. There are rules and the guy broke them. Hence why the Tax office shut him down. Okay there are no Professional qualifications needed to be a Professional Videographer, but I assume this wasn't the problem here; more the methods he used in running the Business side of things.

With any Business you need no qualifications to run one. There's no test, exam or criteria to launch one and yet there are rules and regulations per Country in how you manage your Business. Plus most of us have a contract that regulates our service with a customer. Assuming couples booking him signed a contract, there should be something in there like a return of deposit if the guy fails to deliver his service. I have something like that in mine. If he does and fails to do so, then the couples affected can make a claim. It doesn't mean they'll get their money back. But it could lead to a small claims court.

Ultimately some Insurance can help, but the couples have to be careful the contract they signed allowed for money to be returned if service was cancelled. If the contract is obviously dodgy, the Insurance Company could back out of fulfilling a claim on the basis the couples were reckless in their choice of Videographer.

I've seen it happen to a few people in my home town, and I definitely worked with one company who obviously had cash flow problems and trouble managing things.

I think what happens is these groups get big hearty sums up front, feel rich, and forget to plan for doing the actual work down the road. All of a sudden they have a ton of editing to do, with no more money coming in. They get overwhelmed and things crumble.

I know the wedding video industry has a very business friendly set of standard processes, but these should actually protect the business, not wreck it. You do a bit of work, take quite a large amount of money, and then months later, deliver a product. To the client, this is very risky, and I'm surprised that the procedure has been allowed to continue without some kind of insurance like we have for travel agents, making sure if they go busty the client is compensated.

I've got to have a new flat roof on my recording studio and edit suite. It is going to cost me £3000. The builder might possibly ask me for an advance payment to cover materials, but he doesn't get the balance till the job is complete. Not when the old roof is off, and the new one ready to go on in a few days - but when the job is done. In the video wedding industry, the client is expected to pay up front because, I understand, many clients hate the result, or cancel the wedding, or even get divorced before the product is complete. That's problem for the video firm, I get it - BUT - the client has the opposite risk. They pay upfront for a product that may never arrive, or be dire. Both parties have a risk - so why is the risk not shared? Insurance could be good, but while possible for the business, probably not for the client.

The business model that the wedding video people use is totally biased in their favour. Rates are high, delivery time very unpressured, no trust required from the customer whatsoever. They pay, they wait, they eventually get a product.

Maybe some kind of escrow system would work? The client pays up front, but the video business don't get the money until the Jbh is done. In the case of non-delivery, the client gets their money back. If the video firm don't get their last payment or similar, then the money in escrow can be theirs?

Trust is a two-way process.

Paul, alas you're speaking in ignorance. The main issue for us is that our work is seasonal and confined to certain days. Hence if we allocate a day to a client, we are refusing work to other people. Hardly an issue for your builder. Therefore we must protect ourselves. Also the value of our work depends on the marriage being a success. Again, does a builder suffer such a loss if the Groom sleeps with the Brides Sister.

And you speak as if you can't be conned by anyone other than a Wedding Videographer. I've been let down by builders, solicitors, car mechanics, to make but a few; who have still demanded payment, waving the terms of the contract they have effectively made. Same goes for any industry I deal with.
I had to once take a company to court over not honouring their own contract. Doing to their customers much the same thing this Videographer I imagine did. Being greedy and asking for money not earnt.

And what the hell do you mean, video guys working to an unpressured time. I took no effing holiday last year due to workload, under a lot of stress to deliver on time with a workload per Wedding considerably higher than previous years. My rates are reasonable and competitive. Yes I ask for money upfront as couples can invent issues and problems to delay final payment or in some cases let the matter drag for years. Once the Wedding is done, couples are less likely to pay. Venues and others who work the Wedding Industry make similar demands for the same reason.

I take on Weddings and agree a flat rate per hours worked filming but editing time can vary and depend on how much of the day needed continuous filming. Making a full length video as little as an hour long or as long as 4 hours. I had all kinds last year and it doesn't depend on hours covered. If they have singers or dancers or a magician, and they want the material in full, I have to deliver. Adding time to a Wedding Video and my editing at no extra cost.

Plus my contract makes it clear that no delivery means money back in full. There's a risk then, but no more than any other service. But at least not a costly one to the couple if I hold myself to my own contract and refund as agreed, should I fail to deliver. In fact many clients pay me even earlier or in monthly instalment, as they wish to remove all costs prior to the Wedding for peace of mind.

TBH my contract has worked more in clients favour. Until recently I have had couples cancel even a few weeks before with only the £50 deposit lost. I meanwhile lost a whole day of income, often where I received other enquiries and turned them down to honour a booking I ultimately lost. So I've now changed my contract to ensure I get full payment even if I am cancelled close to the Wedding. Do I want to impose this, no. But bad clients make things worst for everyone and its standard practise across the Wedding Industry.

Then again if I cancel my phone contract, my Insurance or my rent prematurely, I pay an early close fee. So what's the difference between them and me. Well, the difference is, my contract has been, and still is kinder than theirs, not worse as you Paul would infer.

This situation referenced here by Chris is more the exception. A case of one bad Business being undone by poor practise. Hardly unique to Wedding Videographers and can just as easily be true of any Industry.

Hi Steve

Quite correct ..on the whole wedding videographers are honourable and even though they take upfront payments they do deliver the goods. To be honest this event we have just had is an isolated one. I have heard of suppliers pulling out days before the wedding and photographers who arrive with one camera, it fails so they go home but never a videographer!! Bear in mind that this guy started as a solo shooter and was reliable too. Where it went pear shaped was when he decided to hire freelancers so he could make more money by taking on multiple weddings each weekend. He never failed as a videographer, he failed as a manager!!!

I have never been comfortable with up front wedding payments, for which I have often been criticised on this forum, so some of what Paul says I agree with, but I also agree with much of what Steve says.

I have never taken up front payments except on the rare occasion that clients have insisted and then I have only agreed to take a part payment. I have always preferred to take payment when the work is completed ready for delivery, to avoid a potential backlog of work to be done with no further payment at the end of it. I am also acutely aware that once payment has been made, the client will likely be on your case for delivery, not appreciating the time that editing takes.

I have always worked with a contract that protects us and the client, giving guarantees on the work being to the standard of examples previously shown, within the limits of the circumstances on the day. I also have cancellation clauses with a scale of payments according to the notice given of cancellation by the client and a guarantee to find a suitable alternative if we would need to cancel, or medical certificate in case of a medical emergency. Payment used to be made on delivery, but after a few clients adopted delaying tactics, we changed that to payment on completion of the work and receipt of our invoice. Payment has to be made within 7 days unless we have agreed any alternative in writing, to allow for genuine hardship. Failure to pay in the 7 days will automatically invoke a penalty clause on the contract which is an interest charged on any outstanding amount and is clearly detailed in their contract. No finished work is handed over until full payment has been made.

Last year was our busiest ever, and as Steve found, pressure was immense with no holiday and 7 days a week working. We normally quote 4-6 weeks delivery, however Claire was very ill at the latter part of last year and unable to edit and we had a complete failure of one of the editing computers right at the peak of the work. That meant me working single handed on one system and delivery escalated to 12-14 weeks. We contacted all affected clients and had absolutely no problems from them and indeed much sympathy, which was helped by the fact that they all knew we would complete as quickly as we could to get paid.

As Paul said, protecting your business is the top priority, but that can be helped by having a good relationship with your clients backed up with a strong contract that protects both sides.

Roger

The only problem is that once you get into the mode of edit later, at your convenience you cannot catch up. 3 weeks for a doctors appointment, solved by phone on the day.

My video work means that the one organised this morning, will be shot on Tuesday evening, edited Wednesday and Thursday and the client gets it delivered on Friday. That's the deal (and probably for less cost than a wedding, I suspect!). The client pays NOTHING upon front, as I deal with businesses, and they get 30 day terms, which often go over, with no penalty for this if they are good clients. That is, I think what I mean by wedding people not being pressured, time wise. If your delivery timescale is a month or more, then a day off if you fancy it, or even a holiday is perfectly possible. You could work extra hard and clear the backlog - but there is no need to. Most of our work is entertainment based, so we will be heavily into audio and lighting too. A music video might take us a day to shoot, and three or four days of 9-5 editing, and often the income works out to not much above minimum wage if we actually worked on time. It's balanced out by other jobs that involve less time. Our work is very seasonal too, and often at terrible times of the night. I've no beef with the wedding industry for having a pretty good deal, but have to smile when they complain (as in these forums, where they often do). We often have to charge travelling days, which work out at around half the day rate, and clients moan about this, but it's how it works.

I'm not saying the wedding industry is easy, or stress free - I'm sure it isn't, but it IS well paid, and has flexible delivery times that we could never ever use - we'd have no work. If you want to drive hundreds of miles, finish regularly at 2am, and have clients on the phone two days later - try commercial video for VAT registered clients, and not happy couples who have no real clue about what they could ask for?

Hey Roger

Yeah I have seen you being slammed for your terms BUT they are your decision! I have a photographer mate who takes $100 booking fee and the balance on delivery and if you change your mind before the wedding he will also give you your $100 back, no questions asked.

If you take full or even partial upfront payments and don't put them into some sort of trust account yes, you can end up using all your upfront money prior to the wedding day and end up feeling like you are working for nothing!! but then again our new live stream format omits the editing phase totally so we more often than not get paid in full and go and do the job a week or so later ....As we have downsized to doing mainly ceremony only, much smaller amounts are involved and way shorter working times too. If I was still doing the full bridal prep thru to the end of reception I would revert back to the 1/3rd on booking and 2/3rds 2 weeks prior to the wedding ..I have been burned too many times by people not paying on delivery. We used to do 1/3rd booking, 1/3rd 2 weeks before and the final amount on delivery and I cannot understand why people would agree to a $2100 wedding shoot, pay $700 when they book, $700 2 weeks before and then NEVER pick up the media so $1400 of their hard earned money is wasted and they have nothing!!! I still have a couple of DVD sets that are over 5 years old sitting on my shelf!!!

It sounds to me Paul that you have no real conception of the wedding industry. A typical wedding for us would be to start loading up at 8am, allow an hour to travel and park, arrive at the Bride's hair and makeup around 9-10am shoot without a break of more than a few minutes until 9-10pm then another hour to drive home. The footage is then transferred to the editing computer, from 3 or 4 video cameras, 2 sound recorders and 2 stills cameras. That takes about another hour, then all the batteries are put on to charge ready for the next wedding, which is often the following day at the weekend. We can't start the editing of the video until we have received all the information and music that the couple require and never start until after they return from honeymoon in case us or them have any questions. This means that we frequently have a queue of up to 4 weddings after the season starts.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that we edit at our convenience as we need to push on to get work out as soon as possible as any delay means the queue gets longer. Typically at the start of the editing season, we work every day that we are not filming to get the first weddings out, which means with filming that is 7 days per week. We then try to keep the editing to a level where we can have at least 1 day per week off, however last year, with losing one editing system and illness, we had to work 7 days per week from July until December. Hopefully, this year we can keep up with a deliberately reduced level of weddings and get some time for some sort of holiday later in the year.

When I read that you film on Tuesday evening, edit on Wednesday and Thursday and deliver on Friday I can see who has the easiest job. If you can take all my hours of footage and edit it and process hundreds of photos all in two days, then you are a far cleverer man than I.

Roger

I understand your position Roger, but your workflow seems pretty similar to mine - and I can keep up with the editing. I just don't see why wedding editing timescales appear to go on for weeks, and sometimes months.

You're quiet right in that I don't understand weddings, just the perceived processes. I didn't;t know, for example that there are seasons - so I assume your first wedding has a fast turnaround, then the second lags a bit and then by the time the next wedding comes around, you've not finished one and two and the delay gets longer. I hadn't considered that. Most of my delays come from the paperwork advancing before we shoot. Getting confirmation of positions being cleared, satisfying ticket labelling rules at some places - re: the recording. Actually getting to talk to lighting, sound and staging people. We can be anywhere - so sometimes travel is just crazy. Just organising one that I've discovered is nearly in Wales when I thought it was an outskirt of London! Perhaps we're lucky in that our only post-shoot delays come from music people, who got through the pre-edit roughcut with a fine tooth comb, to spot errors. At the moment - our only real delayed project is where the client cannot decide on the titles for each section - everything else being done.

We too have multiple cameras - usually 2-5, but it's multicam so the edit for a 45 minute event isn't too long. As for photos? Thankfully they only rear their head in a few projects we do.

I'm still uncertain of the really long timescale that appears to be standard? Surely this is something that could be reduced? This would be beneficial for all the involved parties?

Paul, I've a mix of several types of video work every year, from concerts, to music videos, to Promo videos, filming seminars and Weddings of course. Weddings take the longest to edit. They are by far the hardest work and require the most time. What makes it worse is that 75% of my years work is from filming done April to September.

As for delivery, a typical Wedding for me is

A 2 minute Trailer
A Full Length Video that can be anything from an hour to 4 hours long depending on the Wedding.
A 40 minute version of the Wedding Video
A Highlights Video
Plus some bonus videos for some customers like Marryoke, Video Messages, Guestcam.

Couples also get multiple DVDs with custom menus, and covers. Plus a USB.

I also film in Log profile requiring some colour grading.

If you think I can get all that done in a week, baring in mind admin work, filming time and the fact I will often have in the Wedding season anything from 2 to 4 Weddings a week, depending on peak periods; then I would welcome your advice based on your experience handling similar work....

As for being well paid, cost per hour and ease of work, my non Wedding work is better paid, needing considerably less hours, much like yours, film, edit and deliver quickly and being considerably less stressful. They are also quick returns. I can be booked, do the work and then paid for in a matter of a few weeks. In contrast, Weddings are booked over a year in advance in many cases, so you're committing to a workload long before you are dealing with it. I have over 40 Weddings confirmed for next year already and who knows what my situation will be then. One illness or family issues and my delivery schedule, which couples ask me about on booking, is best advised as a few months just in case.

I admit there are some Videographers who do charge a lot for minimal return and take ages to deliver. I am not one of them. I do not enjoy a leisurely pace. My summer season can be brutal. A schedule of work that can be almost impossible at times.

Yes we do complain. Who doesn't about the work they do. I've read your complaints too about your own work when you come here and discuss it, and have smiled at them myself. I smile even more at the thought that whilst I've dipped regularly into non Wedding work, probably not to the same extent as yourself, your Wedding work experience is limited to say the least. And yet you feel you know enough to judge the Industry. I feel such knowledge though, comes from reading forums like these, which paints a very narrow and distorted picture of it all.

and you guys wonder why I changed my weddings to a far more simple live broadcast?? Most are ceremony only but for me it's 30 minutes to get to the venue then set up film a 20 minute ceremony pack up and go home ..done and dusted apart from copying the live edited footage from the PC to a USB drive and pop it in the mail.

You don't realise how nice it feels, even if you are doing the reception as well, to pack up after the reception around 9pm - 10pm and know that you are finished .. no frustrating days of editing at all.

When people talk about 2 to 5 cameras I wonder if the bride appreciates that?? I found no difference just dropping from 3 cameras to 2 so when we were still doing traditional video it was 2 cams and the ceremony bridal entry and speeches and just a single camera for prep, and all other reception events. Makes editing a LOT easier Some guys here talk about taking 60 hours to do an edit!!! Seriously ??? I wonder if the long edits actually are cost effective ... I used to charge $75 an hour and to stay competitive I had to be able to edit and deliver a wedding in pretty much two days.

Chris, you want the easy life. You're the sort to let the boulder run down the hill. I'm the sort who likes pushing it up. :)

And what's wrong with editing? I love editing and especially love seeing a finished video ready to be sent. I wouldn't get the same job satisfaction doing a live feed. I like being creative and live broadcast doesn't give me that IMHO.

It's not that at all Steve!! I'm getting a bit old in the tooth to still be pushing boulders up hills!

I turn 73 this year so I really think I deserve to slow down a bit now? I have been doing this full time for 26 years now so it's really time to downsize ...my days of leaving home at 9:00am and getting back at 1:00am the next morning are over ..I still enjoy shooting weddings but I want some time for myself!!

Fair point Chris. Still you'll forgive me for waiting till I reach that age before following your easier life. :)

I understand your position Roger, but your workflow seems pretty similar to mine - and I can keep up with the editing. I just don't see why wedding editing timescales appear to go on for weeks, and sometimes months.



I agree that the workflow on the day may well be similar with what you do, but the differences between editing a wedding and a music show are huge. I first started video recording and editing when I had my recording studio as an add on to the audio recording for bands and still record the occasional music video now. I also record 10-15 theatre and schools shows every year which are usually covered with 3 cameras and 2 audio recorders. At this moment, I currently have two weddings and one 80 minute stage production to edit. They will all end up at a similar finished length, but the stage show will take a small percentage of the time needed for each wedding, with me taking no more than 1 or 2 days to edit the stage show, which probably ties in with your own expectations.

The reason for the difference in editing time is very simple. Stage shows and music productions involve linear filming with multi cameras and sound. So once the cameras and audio are synched, much of the multi camera edit can be carried out in real time, with some specific shots having more time spent on them for maybe cropping, post production zooms or zooms from 4k etc, but the basic edit is pretty straight forward. Even colour matching is a matter of balancing each camera for the whole show, so pretty quickly achieved. Once the main edit is finished, picking out particular sections and adding graphics if required is straight forward.

With weddings however, the ceremony/speeches are similar with linear multi cameras, but the rest of the day is a collection of different shots that can have completely different lighting for every clip, unpredictable sound levels and background noise, plus situations that are far from optimal and require quick compromises on the day and rectifying ensuing problems in post. Each clip has to be checked for consistency and edited to the required length needed for visual flow.Then of course there are the Brides preps and the Grooms, at different places and on different cameras, which need time shifting to create a visual flow with venue details, guest arrivals etc, etc. Then comes the evening with dances, evening guests, abysmal lighting, unexpected sudden requests like a last minute bouquet throwing, fireworks, sparklers etc, then unannounced singing waiters appear from nowhere, wandering around the tables and we are expected to capture it all professionally with absolutely no rehearsal.

All of this has to be assembled in a way that keeps it visually attractive with a natural flow, good colour matching and good quality audio. It is a long and sometimes painful process which we enjoy, but takes a lot more time than the other work we do. You could argue that the time involved doesn't reflect the financial returns and you would probably be correct, but charging higher prices based on an hourly editing rate is likely to price us out of the market. What we are interested in is achieving a comfortable nett income from the work we do. We could take an easier route, film and edit a wedding in two days and get £400 for it, which at £200 a day isn't bad, but if that results in a £400 a week turnover, it is a major problem. I would rather put in a lot more hours and earn £1000+ per week for it.

You set your stall out for what you want to earn and cut your cloth accordingly.

Roger

I've read all the comments, and have to say I think I misjudged the kind of work you guys are doing. Perhaps I'm jealous that you get the money in the bank early and this colours my perception. I did my quarterly VAT return yesterday and perhaps that also didn't;t help - having to pay tax on money I haven't actually received yet, then reading about the big deposits and money in full, then delivery in maybe the next quarter? That's great for cash flow, mine isn't!

I didn't mean to imply anything in my comments - perhaps just mega grumpy at how the wedding industry seem to be walking in the roses compared with my struggling through the mud. Yep - I think jealous probably is the thorn in my side here. Sorry guys.

Before you apologise Paul you have to remember that the wedding industry can also change quite quickly. In the old days few could afford the $25,000 cameras that were used then but nowdays any idiot can walk into a doscount camera store and voila, he or she is now a professional wedding videographer and also photographer with little capital investment, still working full time too so can work for "beer money" which isn't very good for the market!!

It can be quite demoralising when I bride books a videographer that she says"will do it for half your cost" and you know she is going to end up with a lot less than you can give her but she will book the cheap person anyway.

The industrial market still pays fair rates but wedding jobs can sometimes be totally ruined by "weekend warriors"

Before you apologise Paul you have to remember that the wedding industry can also change quite quickly. In the old days few could afford the $25,000 cameras that were used then but nowdays any idiot can walk into a doscount camera store and voila, he or she is now a professional wedding videographer and also photographer with little capital investment, still working full time too so can work for "beer money" which isn't very good for the market!!

It can be quite demoralising when I bride books a videographer that she says"will do it for half your cost" and you know she is going to end up with a lot less than you can give her but she will book the cheap person anyway.

The industrial market still pays fair rates but wedding jobs can sometimes be totally ruined by "weekend warriors"

I think the weekend warrior is hardly a new phenomenon and I have to admit back in 2005 I was one such weekend warrior, taking on my first Wedding with 2 consumer camcorders. One borrowed, the other my own. Affordable video cameras were around before then.

If things have been more competitive, its down to several things. First the Internet has been areal game changer in how we market and conduct our Business. Its now easier for the Bride to find Videographers and for weekend warriors to market themselves to them. Things like Google, Facebook and Social Media have allowed greater comparison of Services, Prices than would have been possible before. The Internet has made the whole Business landscape very much more competitive and its not just Videographers who face issues because of that. A lot of major Businesses have struggled or even collapsed competing with the online platform. They failed for much the same way, not adapting to change.

Secondly, its become easier to edit video. I recall the issues I had editing my first Wedding back in 2005, the constant crashes, failures to render - the tears and tantrums. And I was using a University PC where I worked to edit the video files, which were only SD in AVI Codec. These days I am editing 4K in 10 bit and RAW, Log profile with a PC that probably allowing for inflation, cost a similar amount to the one I used back then.

On the plus side, the Internet has meant that quality can be more freely shared, so expectations can rise amongst customers.

Editing a Wedding Video also does take a long time. Its put off many Photographers I have met who have thought about dabbling into Video before a session of editing has made them change their mind. Weekend Warriors can charge little, but their enthusiasm soon diminishes when faced with 20 to 40 hours of editing work. My first Wedding in 2005 took me ages working between my main job to finish it and I didn't take on another Wedding till 2009 as I felt it wasn't worth the money I charged.

I feel Photography suffers more from weekend warriors - its a more popular hobby and those who are interested in Video are more like to be indie movie makers on a budget than turn to the stress and strain of doing a Wedding Video. Sure there are companies out there, but not nearly enough and when I have had to turn down a booking due to unavailability, the Bride has begged me for any contacts I may have of someone who could film her Wedding. Hardly a measure of a crowded market.

A "weekend warrior" hard at work:
https://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/100/131-a/images/054-oxford-oratory-wedding-photography_234-0803-03_hmm.jpg

Ha ha! I couldn't resist. You know who you are :- )

Pete

No need to apologise Paul, the grass often looks greener etc! Most of my clients haven't a clue how much work goes into producing their wedding video, I'm sure they think we just film it and put it straight onto a usb/dvd for them.

I don't know how the other guys work, but we never get money in the bank early, we don't take any payment until ready to deliver.

Roger

A "weekend warrior" hard at work:
https://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/100/131-a/images/054-oxford-oratory-wedding-photography_234-0803-03_hmm.jpg

Ha ha! I couldn't resist. You know who you are :- )

Pete

Hi Peter,

Ha ha, yep that was me. In fact that was my 3rd ever Wedding - I was nervous as hell that day. I did my 2nd one in February 2010 (not 2009 as I said earlier) and then that was June or July I think after I decided to start up a Business following the February one. To be fair, I had upgraded to an HD camera at least for the February shoot and in fact I still use it as a Guestcam camera. Its easy to use.

That said, I was even worse than a Weekend Warrior. I did it for travel costs only to gain experience. I did a few of those along with paid work that year. By the end of the year I got a large Professional Sony camera which I used for a bit, but really it was the Canon 60d that took my work off in 2011, followed soon after by by shift to Panasonic in 2012 with the GH2 and GH3. ;)

Still it was a nice reminder you sent me Peter of my early days. I'll keep the photo if that's okay, since you're happy to share it. I was a weekend warrior till February 2014, when I finally went fulltime, so guilty as charged. We all have to start somewhere. I met the couple again, when filming either a relations or friends Wedding a year or two later in London.

So I assume you were the Photographer I worked with on that Wedding then. I didn't realise we had met in person. I am terrible with names so if you told me, I do apologise for forgetting it.

I do remember the Wedding well, being one of my earliest ones and also being in Oxford. My only time I have filmed a Wedding there. If I recall I made a bit of a mess of the white balance on my fixed camera on the balcony in the Ceremony. There you go, we all make mistakes. ;)

I don't know how the other guys work, but we never get money in the bank early, we don't take any payment until ready to deliver.

Roger

What about a deposit??? Any money before the Wedding??? I'd think it too risky to take full payment on final delivery. I have enough hassle getting song choices after the Wedding, which is why I ask for them before the day. Let alone money.

To be fair, there's merits in both systems, and if my prices were really high, I might adopt a 50% before and after policy. But I think my prices are low enough (a bargain) to be a gesture in themselves without splitting it even further.

Hi Peter,

Ha ha, yep that was me. In fact that was my 3rd ever Wedding - I was nervous as hell that day. I did my 2nd one in February 2010 (not 2009 as I said earlier) and then that was June or July I think

To be fair, although they'd booked me for all day with big Graphi album plus parent albums etc they had asked me to recommend a videographer at short notice. I linked them to an established guy that I had known for ages - he used to be based in the Turks and Caicos Islands. But the clients didn't want to pay anything much at all for the video so no-one established was being undercut. If I remember rightly that bride was heavily into long distance running and didn't look a picture of health having run that morning; I've had that a few times.

I've shot at that church a few times since including full-on video last summer that went on to Blenheim Palace. They had two photographers and they were a complete nightmare, they didn't have the first idea of how to conduct themselves at weddings. I produced some private video grab shots to laugh with some friends about how bad they were. They should never be let out in the wild :- )

Pete

What about a deposit??? Any money before the Wedding??? I'd think it too risky to take full payment on final delivery. I have enough hassle getting song choices after the Wedding, which is why I ask for them before the day. Let alone money.

To be fair, there's merits in both systems, and if my prices were really high, I might adopt a 50% before and after policy. But I think my prices are low enough (a bargain) to be a gesture in themselves without splitting it even further.

No, don't bother with a deposit, the booking isn't confirmed until we receive a signed contract back which gives us good protection in the case of a cancellation. The problem with deposits is that there can be grey areas with the legality of retaining a deposit in the event of a cancellation if the client wants to insist on having it back. I also don't like receiving money for something I haven't done.

Roger

I know we're drifting off the subject, but do you use a kind oil template for the weddings? I've seen some impressive ones, but wonder if the clever stuff, and the standard sections are refilled, and it's just a case of slotting in the appropriate bits, or is a it a total build. One off my friends does aviation videos - and he has presets as templates for each kind of aircraft they fly, so they load up Tiger Moth (blue sky) or Tiger Moth (Overcast) or Tiger Moth (Rain) and up pops the titles, the B roll stuff of the aircraft taking off and the air to air stuff, and then they insert the appropriate video for each person who paid to fly the things. Only about 50% of these videos is actually shot on the day, the rest is stock footage they've shot. Is this viable for clever stuff in churches you've previously worked in? The stained glass, the altars and pretty stuff without people?

Paul, I'll answer it with photos.

Brides put an awful lot of effort into many aspects of the wedding day and they would react badly to anything that does not match their unique sets. Anything from the weather to the external flora growth to the specific internal decor and positioning of furniture and fixtures.

On some occasions I have recommended that I supply some of my "stock" images to clients when the scenario on the day was less than perfect or not do-able at all.

For example this busy church - St Etheldreda's in central London often has several weddings per day and each ceremony can have different decor. This first photo shows flower arrangements on pedestals near the high altar - shot on a Canon 15mm f2.8L fisheye since you ask; I now use a Tamron 15-30mm f2.8 G2 rectilinear:
https://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/100/208-a/images/008-st-etheldredas-church-london-wedding-photography_051-4522-04_bpps.jpg

The second photo shows the flowers and pedestals have disappeared:
https://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/100/208-a/images/041-st-etheldredas-church-london-wedding-photography_184-4633-04_bpps.jpg

The first photo was from an earlier wedding and there simply wasn't enough time to get the establishing shot after that wedding party had removed their decor and before the next wedding.

One sample shot I have used regularly is the Brompton Oratory in Kensington London. Its one of the few occasions when the weather has been fine and the traffic and pedestrians in the foreground not compromised the composition:
https://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/100/147-a/images/001-london-christening-baptism-photographers-brompton-oratory_001-4750-03_dph.jpg

Likewise inside the Brompton Oratory often there are worshipers and tourists wandering around everywhere and that doesn't look great:
https://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/100/147-a/images/002-london-christening-baptism-photographers-brompton-oratory_005-4470-04_dph.jpg

I've often supplied both of these Brompton Oratory shots for clients on their request.

Another stock type image occurs when clients who cheaped out on photography found out afterwards that their so-called photographer had not shot and supplied some of the basic must-haves like establishing shots of the venue. This shot of the Elvetham Hotel pops up:
https://www.ashtonlamont.co.uk/100/118-a/images/002-elvetham-hotel-wedding-photography_003-1779-04_ckle.jpg

I know that some of my colleagues across the pond regularly use their own stock shots especially for wedding mill type venues and in locations at which the weather and external areas look much the same most of the year round.

Where videographers use templates its more in the style - specifically of the "cinematic" shorts - rather than in the use of previously shot content. It can be hard not to get cynical about the shorts, like a case of when you've seen one you've seen them all.

Pete

No, don't bother with a deposit, the booking isn't confirmed until we receive a signed contract back which gives us good protection in the case of a cancellation. The problem with deposits is that there can be grey areas with the legality of retaining a deposit in the event of a cancellation if the client wants to insist on having it back. I also don't like receiving money for something I haven't done.

Roger

Deposit in my mind has little to do with payment for services rendered and more an act of good faith to show you are committed to the service. I think some couples even take comfort in feeling having paid some money, they can at least rely on you in some way. Its common practise beyond our Industry. I paid a deposit for my Pocket 4K months before I received it. Refundable of course. However in my case, a note on my contract stipulates non refund in case of cancellation. I after all do still do some work for every booking, meetings in some cases, research, emails, phone calls. This still counts as time and effort plus the fact I may have to turn down other bookings represents a financial loss.

Until recently, the only gain I had from any cancellation was my small deposit. However in light of some couples cancelling last minute for silly reasons, I have been forced to put in cancellation clauses. Not ideal, but it annoys when I have late cancellations for dates, after having had nice enquires for those same dates I've been forced to turn down.

As long as it is in my contract, there's little in the way of legality concerns to be had. Nearly every company I deal with have early closure clauses in case of cancellation of a contract, and having fought one, I know its hard to crack. My cancellation clause is therefore quite legal and similar to others in the Wedding Industry. We do commit to work years in advance and this can be a significant loss should couples cancel at the last moment. If for severe reasons I can understand, but of late I have had less severe reasons for cancellation, such as my Uncle has decided to film our Wedding as a surprise gift, the Groom is uncomfortable with the idea of being filmed. We changed our mind about being filmed.

Having this a month before the Wedding having turned down others for that date is really annoying. We can be kind, but too much is often exploited.

I know we're drifting off the subject, but do you use a kind oil template for the weddings?

I have done, but its not ideal. If time is limited, then yes reluctantly. However frequently less so for interiors as they are often decorated unique for each Wedding. Even the exterior such as a church door can have unique flower arrangements. Plus weather can be a factor. I rarely do enough at the same venue anyway despite over 80 Weddings a year to make this work. I do get some cases per year where I can reuse shots. Last year a few drone shots I was able to reuse for 1 other Wedding. Apart from that, all other Weddings had unique shots throughout.

It feels a cheat to be honest. But a necessity in some cases. However a Wedding Day is so unique, I find it has limited applications. I don't engage with trivial shots that can be so easily reused. Plus part of the appeal of going back to previous location is finding new ways to feature it in the video. Being creative and all that nonsense. :) As long as the weather is fine, the meal time is more than enough time to grab some of those shots.