I've got an important side project coming up next year which has to be shot in 4K XAVC-I 25p (or 24p) and S-Log3. I was thinking of hiring an FS7 (plus adapter plus lens) which, of course, records to XQD cards. But, having used an EX1R for many years plus getting a Z150 last year, I'm much more used to the fixed lens XDCAM style of camera and am looking at possibly hiring a Z280 for this project. Plus I can't help, in the back of my mind, pondering the pros and cons of maybe buying a Z280 instead of hiring.

The thing about the Z280 which has me scratching my head the most is which cards you can use (with an adapter) due to its SXS card system.

1. On page 130 of the Z280 manual, it says the only compatible recording media for XAVC-I at 4K (3840 x 2160) is the SXS Pro+ card. My local dealer (Videocraft) lists a 128GB card at about $1200 and a 256GB card at $2,400! Yet the FS7 records 4K XAVC-I to XQD cards with no problems. My first question is: Have any members successfully recorded 4K XAVC-I on the Z280 to XQD cards using the adapter (QDA-EX1 Media Adapter)?

2. I was intrigued by the statement on page 26 of the manual, "When recording in XAVC-I recording format ... an unsupported media error may appear on the screen indicating that normal recording is not possible, depending on the SDXC cards used."

So does this mean that, if you use the right SDXC cards (and I have a heap of Sony SDXC cards from when I bought the Z150) with the adapter, it can record 4K XAVC-I? The Sony cards I've got have a maximum write speed of 90 MB/s. The 4K XAVC-I bitrate (from a Sony brochure on the FS7) is supposed to be 240 Mb/s for 24p (23.98p) and 250 Mb/s for 25p. This is, I believe, a 10-bit codec. So 10 bits to a byte. This means 24 MB/s for 24p and 25 MB/s for 25p. (If I've screwed up with the maths or my assumptions concerning this, feel free to jump in.) This is less than a third of the maximum speed of these cards, so I'd hope that my Sony SDXC cards could handle those bitrates quite comfortably. I took one of my Sony cards over to Videocraft to test my theory out on their display camera, but unfortunately they didn't have an adapter (MEAD-SD02) available. So I'm wondering if any of our members have successfully recorded 4K XAVC-I at 24p or 25p onto SDXC cards with an adapter? By the way, this particular project would never shoot higher than a 25p frame rate.

3. Finally, the table on page 130 of the Z280 manual says the 4K XAVC-L (Long) codec is unable to be recorded onto SDXC cards. Yet my Z150 records 4K XAVC-L onto SDXC cards just fine. So it seems kind of hard to believe that the Z280 wouldn't record this to SDXC cards with an adapter. Again, has anyone tested this out?

Thanks very much!

Watch the following video. It will explain all. The Z280 can record a full UHD signal in 50/60p to XQD cards running using Sony's XQD Express Card Adapter. For me if you don't have SxS cards this is the best way to go as the cards can do double duty in the Z7 as well. With SD cards and adapters the Z280 is limited to HD resolutions.

The XQD cards need to be the G series 440/400 MBs cards to cover all codecs and frame rates. Remember now there are two new XQD cards out from Sony. They are the new 120GB and 240GB cards. They are the QD-G120F and the QD-G240F. These are built based on the new PCI Express card architecture and certain cameras require firmware updates. In the case of the Z280 that is firmware v1.2 released at the end of October. The original firmware on the Z280 is totally fine with the original G series XQD cards of 128 and 256GB. See the attached PDF for more info.

BTW I love my FS7 with the 18-110 lens but I know where you are coming from with your past EX experience. I still have an EX3 that is still doing great service on certain jobs. Especially with an ACM-21 adapter and 2/3" B4 lens. It's a great problem solver for certain types of events. I'm thinking of replacing it with the Z280 hence having researched all the Z280 card options. I'm just hanging off until NAB to see if Sony are going to bring out a PXW "Z" model with an interchangeable lens and side viewfinder, a la EX3. If they don't it will be an EX3 upgrade to Z280 I think.

The video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2q21rIZ8tM&feature=youtu.be

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

I just tested out our new PXW-Z280 with the G-series 256 GB XQD cards in the official Sony adapters, and XAVC-I at max quality in UHD resolution, and everything worked just fine.

Good to hear the confirmation from someone who has actually tried. Thanks for that!

Chris Young

I just tested out our new PXW-Z280 with the G-series 256 GB XQD cards in the official Sony adapters, and XAVC-I at max quality in UHD resolution, and everything worked just fine.

That's great to hear with the 256GB card. I know the 240GB card is a bit newer and 'rugged'. Anyone try the 240GB one yet?

My local dealer (Videocraft) lists a 128GB card at about $1200 and a 256GB card at $2,400!

Really the way to go is with an external recorder/monitor such as the Atomos Ninja Flame - less than $800 and mega flexible.

Why drag around all that extra hardware? That's just ruining a fast, easy to use, lightweight camera with a bunch of unnecessary junk. If you can't afford the cards, you can't afford the camera.

BTW, all of my S-Series XQD cards also work with every format and frame rate.

Really the way to go is with an external recorder/monitor such as the Atomos Ninja Flame - less than $800 and mega flexible.

Sure you could do that but from my POV that totally beats the object of having a one piece camera that has a very high spec codec internally that is every bit as good as the ProRes files. Why make the camera into a lugfest with all the extra kit hanging off it?

I use an Atomos Inferno as a backup on mission critical shoots with the FS7 but those files have never been used, touch wood, because we get totally acceptable results from the XAVC internal 422 10-bit 4K files. No way would I use it on a Z280 if I was on the move. Too cumbersome and restrictive IMHO.

Chris Young

Quality-wise, I see less of an argument for going with ProRes files. But, ironically, workflow-wise, perhaps more of an argument can be made, depending on the nature of the shoot, of course.

If you're running in the highest quality codec the camera offers (XAVC-I), you're dealing with real frames every time, just like ProRes, but the resulting files are arguably less compatible with legacy editing systems (with which, some editors are strapped due to cost or facility issues). So, there's that potential post-production workflow concern.

Further, I do take some issue with cost/performance ratio, too. While it's true that if you are concerned with the cost of a couple of media cards, the camera might not be the right choice, I think that once you start multiplying the number of cards, you can quickly get to a point where media costs get quite high. A 256 GB XQD card costs $450. That one card gives you less than 1 hour of running footage in XAVC-I and UHD resolution. If you're running all day without an opportunity to dump media, you're talking about at least a half-dozen cards. The cost on that is upwards of $3k, once you add in two adapters, a media reader and a carrying case for spare/spent cards, and that's if you have just a 6-hour daily run time maximum.

Compare that to a Ninja Flame cost ($800), which does provide the added benefit of a "real" monitor that can even work in full daylight conditions. Samsung 860 Pro 512GB SSD drives run about $140 right now. Equivalent media costs combined with the $800 sunk investment on the Ninja Flame (which also has arguably more used ownership value), you're talking roughly $1350 after caddies and cables and what not (especially if you already have a host of L series batteries to run the Ninja). By my math, that's less than half the cost, plus it comes with a pretty decent monitor. If you're running on presenters moving about on a stage from a tripod all day, that's certainly a good choice, and dare I say it, an even better business decision.

Is it always good to have that extra stuff bolted on to your rig? Certainly not, and that's one of the main reasons to buy the Z280 in the first place, since you don't have to fumble with lens mounts and lenses. But each assignment should dictate the kit requirements, and sometimes, a Ninja Flame is just the ticket. In the end, you probably want BOTH options, especially if the Z280 is your only rig, and you take a belt-and-suspenders approach to mission-critical assignments.

A 256 GB XQD card costs $450. That one card gives you less than 1 hour of running footage in XAVC-I and UHD resolution.

At what frame rate, 60P? Why would anyone in their right mind shoot presenters on a stage at 60P? Why not shoot at 30P XAVC-I 4K and then you'll get 1.7 hours on a single 256GB card and 2.2 hours @ 24P. And going one step further, why does anyone need XAVC-I for presenters on a stage? Switch over to XAVC-L 4K and you'll get 5.2 hours on the same card. Unless someone is going to be doing some heavy grading, XAVC-L and XAVC-I will be indistinguishable from each other. And going even a step further, I'd say that 4K for presenters on a stage might be overkill anyway. Maybe it's possbile to drop down to XAVC-L50 HD and then you'll have 9.8 hours of record time on one card. And then you can even switch to dirt cheap SD cards and save money on media. My advice is still to invest in a couple extra memory cards and skip all the hassle and complexity of an external recorder. External recorders are for people with inferior cameras that don't have decent internal codecs and/or reliable media.

Points well taken, all. Just saying there are potentially more economical ways to shoot, particularly if you're in need of a larger studio config style monitor for following presenters around a stage or something like that.

One added, but not unimportant, concern is sub-optimal lighting conditions, which none of us ever encounter (hah!). Despite the camera's excellent low light characteristics, there are situations where one might want to do some lift/gama/gain adjustments. The less noise the better, and the higher the color space the better. In the PXW-Z280, that equates to using XAVC-I vs. XAVC-L to minimize noise and banding as you stretch the picture's levels around.

That all being said, you are right that the camera is supremely adjustable, and there's a codec built-in for just about any situation you're likely to encounter when using such a camera. Just to be clear - I'm not advocating to choose the Ninja Flame device as the primary recording mechanism for this camera.

You make good points too, and I'm not saying there might not be some legitimate reasons to use an external recorder -- but most of the time I would seriously question that choice. A lot of people, especially those coming from DSLRs or other sub-par video cameras have the misconception that an external recorder is a necessary piece of equipment to obtain high quality recordings. And as you know, that is not the case with the Sony's professional camcorders. The great thing about the Z280 is just how small, nimble, and simple it is to shoot with and I hate to see people screw that up by adding curb feelers and fuzzy dice. The best choice for extending card capacity it almost always going to be to choose a different recording format or get more cards.

Thanks to everyone for their insights and comments so far.

Eric: Thanks for personally testing out the XQD card (and adapter) with XAVC-I and 4K. I really appreciate this coming from a member. That's what I was hoping for!

Christopher: Thanks, as always, for your well-researched info. It definitely looks like they are phasing out the 256GB XQD card in favour of the new 240GB card, so that firmware upgrade looks essential, going forward. I agree with you about the benefit of potential "double duty" with XQD cards (Z280 and/or FS7). The economics also make much more sense. This side project is going to be fully funded by me and, even though it's scripted, I just wouldn't feel comfortable with less than 5 hours of recording media for each day. According to this chart (which was worked out for an FS7), the 240GB card (QD-G240F) will record 105 minutes of 4K XAVC-I at 25p.

https://pro.sony/s3/2018/07/17103818/Approximate-Recording-Time_final_140918.pdf

So 3 x 240GB cards should give 315 minutes (5 1/4 hours), which should be more than adequate. A 240GB card retails for $625 and the adapter for $80 (I'd leave each card permanently in its adapter), so 3 cards and 3 adapters would be about $2,100. Compare that to the cost of 3 SXS Pro+ cards at around $7,500, which comes to three-quarters of the price of the camera itself! So, if looking to purchase rather than rent, you'd be up for $10,000 for the Z280 camera plus a bag plus batteries plus $2,100 for the cards. Not too bad, actually. And, as Doug pointed out, if your requirements are better suited to XAVC-L or HD rather than XAVC-I, a single card might be all you'd ever need. In my own case, I'm now considering shooting this project in multi-cam (3 cameras) due to limited availability of the location, where I might not get the time to shoot all my coverage with a single camera. But the Z280 looks like a great long-term camera to purchase, I must say. It's so versatile!

Keith: Thanks for mentioning the option of the external recorder. Always worth considering. With this project, capturing in 4K (UHD) XAVC-I and S-Log3 will be perfect for me and I feel that this is where the Z280 really shines. Compact, no need to change lenses and everything recording to internal cards. It's very no-fuss. Doug summed it up perfectly! I'll have more than one function to perform on this particular shoot, so I want to keep the camera operation very simple and in the style that I'm most used to.

Thanks, again!

When I got the camera, it was the first batch being sent out and took a chance at the media and ordered it at the same time. It paid off, because I am able to record ALL formats at all speeds without ANY dropped frames even during super long recordings with the following XQD pieces:

Sony XQD SXS card adapter: $38 X2 = $76
Sony 128gb XQD G series card: $230 X2 = $460
Lexar 2gen XR2 XQD card reader: $45 Total: $581

Total: $581

Made a video about it.

https://youtu.be/o2q21rIZ8tM

Unless someone is going to be doing some heavy grading, XAVC-L and XAVC-I will be indistinguishable from each other.

Hi Doug. I'm a broadcast journo who has been using PXW-X200 for years. I just upgraded to a Z280 but was discombobulated to see I would probably need to splash out another grand on SXS-Pro+ cards (I have a stack of SXS-1s).

Will I still be making a step up in quality from shooting XAVC-I on the X200 if I shoot in XAVC-L on the Z280, and just keep my SXS-1 cards?

Thanks,

Paul

Hi Paul, congratulations on the Z280, it is a great little camera.
it really depends on what codecs you'll be using. Based on my testing with the only SxS-1 card that I own (orange trim), here my recommendations:

XAVC-L HD @ all frame rates
XAVC-I HD @ all frame rates
XAVC-L 4K @ @ up to 29.97
XAVC-I 4K @ up to 29.97 (Probably will work, but there is increased risk of failure. Don't use for anything critical)

BTW, if you're not going to do any heavy grading in post or green screen, then XAVC-L will be just as good as XAVC-I, thus extending card capacity. But XAVC-I might playback smoother in post, so there are no simple answers. I recommending doing your own testing to come to your own conclusions based on your own and computer system. Good luck.

Many thanks Doug. I'm also taking your advice by getting the XQD adapter to take the price down a bit for those bigger codecs.

I had briefly tested and recorded XAVC-I - if the card can't handle a codec will it simply not record i.e. no red light, or will everything look fine and then it just won't be on the card (or corrupted) when you go to edit?

That's my last question before I get your masterclass instead...

Paul, if you don't already have a XQD to SxS adapter you probably won't find one because Sony discontinued them more than a year ago. Used ones are worth more than they cost new -- if you can find one at all. I'm friends with the host/producer of CBS's "Tough as Nails" and he's always telling me to be on the lookout for more adapters for him. They shoot the show on F55s but prefer to use XQD because they need so many cards.

If the camera gives you a "Media not Guaranteed" message when you put it in it is Sony's way of warning you that you are taking a risk using that card with the current recording format and frame rate. But that doesn't mean it won't work anyway. You are just being warned. However, just because a card begins recording for a few seconds doesn't mean it is good to go. You have to let the camera run for several minutes to see if it craps out. What I do is aim the camera at a TV screen with a show that has lots of motion for the camera to compress and hit record. If the card makes it for at least 5 minutes without stalling then it is probably okay.

The good news is that if the camera says it is recording -- it is. In 15 years of using SxS cards I've never had a problem with any Sony camera saying it is recording when it is not. If recording fails with one of your cards, you will know it immediately when an error message pops up and the tally lights start flashing rapidly.

Thank you very much Doug. Seriously appreciate the time you take to give guidance.

All the best,

Paul

Apologies for reviving an old thread but hoping I can help someone out.

Visual Impact in the UK have got about 20 of the QDA-EX1 card adapters in stock, right now.

Ordered two yesterday which have just arrived!

https://www.visuals.co.uk/3459523-qdaex1.html

Thanks for the heads up, Simon.

I've just told someone else who has been looking for a couple and he's getting in touch with Visual. Lord knows where they got them from unless they are old stock as they have been out of production for a while now. Thanks again.

Chris Youg

Apologies for reviving an old thread but hoping I can help someone out.

Visual Impact in the UK have got about 20 of the QDA-EX1 card adapters in stock, right now.

Ordered two yesterday which have just arrived!

https://www.visuals.co.uk/3459523-qdaex1.html

Thanks Simon for the link, I received my two adapters this morning :) Just out of curiousity, the XQD card must not work in my PMW-320, it said card not reconised, it didnt allow me the format option.
Perhaps its only in the likes of the Z280 that the XQD and adapter works.

Thanks Simon again.

That's incorrect. The PMW-320 does support the QDA-EX1 adapters. Just make sure you are running the latest firmware "PMW-320 : SxS Binary Package V1.41" which can be downloaded from here:

https://pro.sony/en_GB/support-resources/pmw-320k/software

Also if you want to run the XQD cards and the XAVC CODEC make sure the following settings are changed. With the format change from XDCam MPEG2 to XAVC-I or XAVC-L the cards will have to be reformatted as the MPEG codec requires the cards to be formatted as UDF whereas XAVC requires the cards to be formatted as exFAT. See the following page extracts from the manual for those settings which can be found under OPERATION/FILE SYSTEM.

Good luck squire!

Chris Young

Thank you Christopher, I will look into that :)

Reviving an old thread. Purchased a Z280 based on my current needs (upgrade from Z190) and am looking for media options.

I see the QDA-EX1 are no longer available and there is one on ebay for 300.00. WOW!

I see Aliexpress is selling a QDA-EX1 for 80.00. It almost makes me wonder if the same factory that made them for Sony makes these.

It seems like XQD is the best option for the long run as @Doug Jensen says they will record anything the Z280 is capable of recording and is more cost effective. I hope someone can chime in and tell me what their current experience is with media and options.

SxS Pro+ cards are ridiculously expensive and even purchasing the 300.00 adapter from Ebay will save me in the long run in cost.

Glad to be part of the group and thanks for letting me in!

Best,

David

Seriously if you are working in daily HD broadcast situations just use XAVC-L. That's all I use in 95% of cases for broadcast. Miles more space on the cards. You can use much lower-rated cards and as Doug has said in the past visually for 99.9% of most material you won't see the difference. The only time I use XAVC-I is if I know there has to be a heavy grade done to the material or if I have some heavy-duty Green/Blue screen work to do. Most of my XAVC-I use is not for live broadcast. I use this XAVC-L workflow on any of the Sony cameras that offer me XAVC-L in probably 98% of situations.

IMHO so many people get carried away with the "If it's bigger it's got to be better" syndrome. Do you remember the groundbreaking "Top Gear" motoring show done by the BBC? That was all originally shot on XDCam 50mbps 8-bit 4:2:2 1080i which used the old MPEG-2 codec and it looked great. How the image is handled and presented is more important than sheer bitrate. I shoot live sports every week for broadcast and all our recordings are XAVC-L progressive and nobody says anything about the quality other than "Great pictures."

Check your Z280 manual page #137 for a list of formats and codecs you can shoot with. If it's only HD you need you can even use XAVC-L with SDXC cards formatted to exFAT. You would need either the MEAD-SD02 SDHC/SDXC Card Adapters from Sony or one of the other off-brand adapters for those SDXC cards. With the older SxS-1 cards you can shoot all the codecs bar the XAVC-I ones.

EDIT:
BTW. I had a look at those US$81.00 QDA-EX1 adapters selling on Ali Express and as far as I can tell they look identical to the genuine Sony ones I have. The" genuine" ones are also made in good old downtown China. A couple of those and some XQD cards and I would say you are on your way as the XQD cards will handle all the codecs the Z280 can throw at it using those QDA-EX1 adapters, as indicated on page #137 of the manual. That's exactly what I'm doing. Using XQD cards interchangeably between my XQD and SxS cameras.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/978782-REG/sony_mead_sd02_sdhc_sdxc_card_adaptor.html/overview/BI/2855/KBID/3801 (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/978782-REG/sony_mead_sd02_sdhc_sdxc_card_adaptor.html/overview/BI/2855/KBID/3801/BI/2855/KBID/3801/BI/2855/KBID/3801)

Chris Young

Thanks Christopher. I'm hesitant with the AliExpress as I don't want to take a chance. If I could get the genuine Sony one and the Ali one and take them apart to confirm the circuitry is the same I'd feel better. Just 2 months ago the Sony ones sold for 30-40 bucks on ebay. Not anymore. Sigh.

I'm also curious as to why the camera has worse low light performance in 4k vs HD? Maybe Doug can shed some light on it (see what I did there?). I wonder if my Z190 would have worked better in HD vs 4K in low light.

Decisions, decisions.

Best,

David

Sorry for cutting in here :)

So, do you thing these adapters should work like the original QDA-EX1 card adapters ?



https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003950544795.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000014.28.326118cd9kElX1&gps-id=pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller&scm=1007.40000.267768.0&scm_id=1007.40000.267768.0&scm-url=1007.40000.267768.0&pvid=4d068d04-1082-4943-bc7c-6bfb4a2956e8&_t=gps-id:pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller,scm-url:1007.40000.267768.0,pvid:4d068d04-1082-4943-bc7c-6bfb4a2956e8,tpp_buckets:668%232846%238116%23910&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000027544205660%22%2C%22sceneId%22%3A%2230050%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21GBP%21%2158.83%21%21%21%21%21%40211b5db216534885584488272e9266%2112000027544205660 %21rec

I was lucky, I bought two QDA-EX1 adapters from Visual at that time.

I think that's the answer many on this forum would like to know. I'm tempted to buy one and take it apart and see what circuitry is inside if someone who owned an original could do the same and we could compare. I hate to spend 300.00 on the only original I can find on Ebay just to do this. If this is in fact the factory that made them for Sony then I would probably buy several.

Maybe Doug Jensen can step in and help us?

Best,

David

Sorry for cutting in here :)

So, do you thing these adapters should work like the original QDA-EX1 card adapters ?



https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003950544795.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000014.28.326118cd9kElX1&gps-id=pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller&scm=1007.40000.267768.0&scm_id=1007.40000.267768.0&scm-url=1007.40000.267768.0&pvid=4d068d04-1082-4943-bc7c-6bfb4a2956e8&_t=gps-id:pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller,scm-url:1007.40000.267768.0,pvid:4d068d04-1082-4943-bc7c-6bfb4a2956e8,tpp_buckets:668%232846%238116%23910&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000027544205660%22%2C%22sceneId%22%3A%2230050%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21GBP%21%2158.83%21%21%21%21%21%40211b5db216534885584488272e9266%2112000027544205660 %21rec

I was lucky, I bought two QDA-EX1 adapters from Visual at that time.

I think that's the answer many on this forum would like to know. I'm tempted to buy one and take it apart and see what circuitry is inside if someone who owned an original could do the same and we could compare. I hate to spend 300.00 on the only original I can find on Ebay just to do this. If this is in fact the factory that made them for Sony then I would probably buy several.

Maybe Doug Jensen can step in and help us?

Best,

David

OK David, thank you.

Maybe Doug Jensen can step in and help us?

Sorry, I'm not about to offer any advice or speculation on any cards or adapters that I have not used myself.
If you want to be 100% assured of flawless recording 100% if the time . . . then use nothing but genuine SxS cards.

However, if someone is under the impression that they can save money by using other media, and they think they have found a cost-effective alternative, my advice is to set the Z280 for 4K XAVC-I @ 60 fps, aim it at a TV screen that is playing a sports program (lots of action for the codec to compress), and let it record until the card fills up. If it doesn't crap out, then odds are very good the card/adapter combination will probably be reliable all the time. In my experience, if a card/adapter passes this test it won't suddenly crap out some other time. Either it works or it doesn't. But don't blame be if you lose footage! :-)

I probably already said someplace on this thread, don't buy a high-performance car and then complain you have to buy premium gas to make it run right. If you can't afford the fuel, you can't afford the car. Especially true about media because you only need to buy it once. Buy 'em once and then enjoy peace of mind.

It's frustrating that Sony has abandoned SxS cards and moving to XQD in virtually every application. I agree with you about being able to afford the car and the gas but I also don't like investing in technology that is going to be obsolete with a camera when there are adapter options out there.

Most of my stuff is done live and switched into a broadcast application and recorded on ISO decks in Prores anyways. I just use the footage on the card as a backup.

It appears the camera will record at any rate with an adapter and XQD cards according to the updated owners manual but it seems like Sony is forcing you to go to SxS or bust especially by discontinuing the adapter which is quite frustrating.

My plan is to purchase the Genuine Sony adapter for 300.00 and the 70.00 adapter from Ali Express and take them apart to compare the circuitry. Then I will buy the Sony XQD cards and do the recording tests as you suggest and report back the results. If the 70.00 adapters prove to be a solid solution I can make a recommendation back and the people of this community have a solid solution going forward.

Since I do have your attention (BTW - I purchased your master class for the ZX280) - can you speak to why the camera performs worse in low light in 4k vs HD mode?

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond to my questions.

Best,

David



Sorry, I'm not about to offer any advice or speculation on any cards or adapters that I have not used myself.
If you want to be 100% assured of flawless recording 100% if the time . . . then use nothing but genuine SxS cards.

However, if someone is under the impression that they can save money by using other media, and they think they have found a cost-effective alternative, my advice is to set the Z280 for 4K XAVC-I @ 60 fps, aim it at a TV screen that is playing a sports program (lots of action for the codec to compress), and let it record until the card fills up. If it doesn't crap out, then odds are very good the card/adapter combination will probably be reliable all the time. In my experience, if a card/adapter passes this test it won't suddenly crap out some other time. Either it works or it doesn't. But don't blame be if you lose footage! :-)

I probably already said someplace on this thread, don't buy a high-performance car and then complain you have to buy premium gas to make it run right. If you can't afford the fuel, you can't afford the car. Especially true about media because you only need to buy it once. Buy 'em once and then enjoy peace of mind.

Just curious as to what XQD card reader you recommend.

Thanks,

David

Seriously if you are working in daily HD broadcast situations just use XAVC-L. That's all I use in 95% of cases for broadcast. Miles more space on the cards. You can use much lower-rated cards and as Doug has said in the past visually for 99.9% of most material you won't see the difference. The only time I use XAVC-I is if I know there has to be a heavy grade done to the material or if I have some heavy-duty Green/Blue screen work to do. Most of my XAVC-I use is not for live broadcast. I use this XAVC-L workflow on any of the Sony cameras that offer me XAVC-L in probably 98% of situations.

IMHO so many people get carried away with the "If it's bigger it's got to be better" syndrome. Do you remember the groundbreaking "Top Gear" motoring show done by the BBC? That was all originally shot on XDCam 50mbps 8-bit 4:2:2 1080i which used the old MPEG-2 codec and it looked great. How the image is handled and presented is more important than sheer bitrate. I shoot live sports every week for broadcast and all our recordings are XAVC-L progressive and nobody says anything about the quality other than "Great pictures."

Check your Z280 manual page #137 for a list of formats and codecs you can shoot with. If it's only HD you need you can even use XAVC-L with SDXC cards formatted to exFAT. You would need either the MEAD-SD02 SDHC/SDXC Card Adapters from Sony or one of the other off-brand adapters for those SDXC cards. With the older SxS-1 cards you can shoot all the codecs bar the XAVC-I ones.

EDIT:
BTW. I had a look at those US$81.00 QDA-EX1 adapters selling on Ali Express and as far as I can tell they look identical to the genuine Sony ones I have. The" genuine" ones are also made in good old downtown China. A couple of those and some XQD cards and I would say you are on your way as the XQD cards will handle all the codecs the Z280 can throw at it using those QDA-EX1 adapters, as indicated on page #137 of the manual. That's exactly what I'm doing. Using XQD cards interchangeably between my XQD and SxS cameras.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/978782-REG/sony_mead_sd02_sdhc_sdxc_card_adaptor.html/overview/BI/2855/KBID/3801 (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/978782-REG/sony_mead_sd02_sdhc_sdxc_card_adaptor.html/overview/BI/2855/KBID/3801/BI/2855/KBID/3801/BI/2855/KBID/3801/BI/2855/KBID/3801)

Chris Young

It's frustrating that Sony has abandoned SxS cards and moving to XQD in virtually every application.

I believe you have that 180 degrees backwards. It is XQD cards that are on their way out. Heck, they were barely ever in. The FS7 and FX9 are the only video cameras that used them, and now it is down to only the FX9. On the other hand, SxS has been in use since 2007 and is a broadcast industry staple and will be around for years and years. All the high-end ENG cameras are going to use them for the foreseeable future. I have would have zero second thoughts about investing in more SxS cards if I found myself needing them.

Keep in mind that Z280 is a wolf in sheep's clothing. It is 90% as powerful and full-featured as it's bigger brothers, the Z450 and Z750. My Z750 cost more than $100K by the time I added a lens, batteries, and viewfinder. The Z280 is 90% the same camera for $7K. Amazing value, and not a camera that should be forced to suffer with substandard media. People make the mistake of lumping the Z280 with other cameras that only look similar on the outside. That is a big mistake. To use another automotive analogy, don't buy a Land Rover and then put Walmart tires on it.

Since I do have your attention (BTW - I purchased your master class for the ZX280) - can you speak to why the camera performs worse in low light in 4k vs HD mode?


Thank you for your support. Much appreciated.

I've never bothered to ask Sony for an explanation about the better performance in HD, but I assume it has to do with pixel binning. Compared to 4K, you have 4x more pixels (look at them like buckets catching rain) to capture light for 1920x1080.


Also, I believe you have made your last statement very biased in how you have phrased it. The camera is not "worse" in 4K. You should say it is "better" in HD. When you use the term "worse" it implies the camera isn't good at low light in 4K. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Z280 rates natively at 2000 ISO in 4K. Much higher than the FX6, FS7, FS5, and even the Z750. If you ignore the alpha mirrorless cameras I don't think Sony makes a better low-light 4K camera. Certainly not any camcorder.
Compared to similar-looking cameras from Panasonic, Canon, JVC, etc. is is far better in low light and with a cleaner image.
The Z280 is an amazing machine with great electronics and 3 sensors. Nothing else even comes close to matching it.

Interesting observation if that's true - using the extra pixels to gather light in HD mode. My intent wasn't to show bias - just an observation that I believe I saw in one of your videos. I just said it the opposite way.

The impetus for me moving from a Z190 to the Z280 was low light performance. I'm being asked to shoot in incredibly difficult situations and the Z190 wasn't delivering the quality product needed. I wonder if the Z190 exhibits the same characteristic in HD compared with 4K?

I can tell I have much to learn about different media formats as all I've dealt with is SD cards in the past. Appreciate your honesty and time.

Best,

David

Thank you for your support. Much appreciated.

I've never bothered to ask Sony for an explanation about the better performance in HD, but I assume it has to do with pixel binning. Compared to 4K, you have 4x more pixels (look at them like buckets catching rain) to capture light for 1920x1080.


Also, I believe you have made your last statement very biased in how you have phrased it. The camera is not "worse" in 4K. You should say it is "better" in HD. When you use the term "worse" it implies the camera isn't good at low light in 4K. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Z280 rates natively at 2000 ISO in 4K. Much higher than the FX6, FS7, FS5, and even the Z750. If you ignore the alpha mirrorless cameras I don't think Sony makes a better low-light 4K camera. Certainly not any camcorder.
Compared to similar-looking cameras from Panasonic, Canon, JVC, etc. is is far better in low light and with a cleaner image.
The Z280 is an amazing machine with great electronics and 3 sensors. Nothing else even comes close to matching it.

David, yes a lot of this requires a big learning curve and sometimes there are no clear cut answers.

No, the Z190 does not exhibit any difference in sensitivity between 4K and HD. Obviously, if my theory about the Z280 is correct, then the same thing should apply to all other cameras, which is does not, so it calls into question my theory. I admit it. :-)

I will reach out to Sony to see what I can get direct from the horse's mouth.

... my advice is to set the Z280 for 4K XAVC-I @ 60 fps, aim it at a TV screen that is playing a sports program (lots of action for the codec to compress), and let it record until the card fills up. If it doesn't crap out, then odds are very good the card/adapter combination will probably be reliable all the time. In my experience, if a card/adapter passes this test it won't suddenly crap out some other time. Either it works or it doesn't. But don't blame be if you lose footage! :-)


Doug. Never done it with a TV screen but have done it on a regular basis with real live football with XQD cards at 50Hz 4K which is 500Mbps. Done this with straight XQDs in camera and with XQDs in various SxS cameras using genuine QDA-EX1 adapters and in what? I think it's now about five years or so now with regular weekly shoots and so far not even one adverse incident with either card technology... SxS or XQD. Tempting fate? I'll probably live to regret this comment now:)

Chris Young

Chris, yeah that is kind of my point. There's no need to disassemble a card to look at its guts. Whether someone is interested in using XQD or SDXC with the Z280, just put the card in the adapter and give it a try. If it works once, it will likely work forever.

Doug,

I'm a tech nerd and former electronics technician. I've purchased a genuine SxS Pro+ card, The genuine Sony SxS to XQD adapter as well as the one from Aliexpress and a Sony 240GB XQD card.

If you still have friends looking for SxS to XQD adapters my findings may prove to be a good resource.

According to the updated manual, the XQD should perform as well as the SxS card in this application.

I'm really wondering if Sony will do a firmware update to allow CF Express cards however if XQD can support the highest rate of recording the camera will do, the point is moot.

All the best,

David



Chris, yeah that is kind of my point. There's no need to disassemble a card to look at its guts. Whether someone is interested in using XQD or SDXC with the Z280, just put the card in the adapter and give it a try. If it works once, it will likely work forever.

Whether someone is interested in using XQD or SDXC with the Z280, just put the card in the adapter and give it a try. If it works once, it will likely work forever.

Hopefully!... :)

Chris Young

Doug,

Did you ever get an answer from Sony?

I have received the Genuine QDA-EX1 the SxS and the 120GB G Sony G card.

Both the SXS and QDA-EX1 with the 120GB XQD recorded for 22 minutes of ESPN at 3840x2160 59.94P XAVC-I - flawlessly.

I ran 8 separate tests and confirmed that 100% of the time the XQD with adapter recorded perfectly (also the SxS card).

As soon as I have the AliExpress card I'll do similar tests.

Hopeful this will be helpful for those looking for a rock solid solution that is more cost effective.

Still waiting for the AliExpress card. Will update after I have it and test results.

Best,

David

David, yes a lot of this requires a big learning curve and sometimes there are no clear cut answers.

No, the Z190 does not exhibit any difference in sensitivity between 4K and HD. Obviously, if my theory about the Z280 is correct, then the same thing should apply to all other cameras, which is does not, so it calls into question my theory. I admit it. :-)

I will reach out to Sony to see what I can get direct from the horse's mouth.

Just curious as to what XQD card reader you recommend.

Sorry I missed this question.

I'm using the original XQD card adapters that came with the XQD cards. In the early days of XQD Sony supplied a USB3 reader with each card. Though most of the time I'm using the original SBAC-US30 SxS card reader that I've had for ages as that will read my SxS cards and with their respective adapters SD and XQD.

Chris Young

I see its not in stock now but I'm using this XQD reader and also works well.

XQD SD Card Reader, 4 in 1 USB 3.0 XQD Memory Card Reader Support Sony G/M Series USB Mark XQD Card, Lexar 2933x/1400x XQD Card,SD Card Compatible with Windows/Mac OS System【Upgraded Version】: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo

Doug,

Did you ever get an answer from Sony?

I have received the Genuine QDA-EX1 the SxS and the 120GB G Sony G card.

Both the SXS and QDA-EX1 with the 120GB XQD recorded for 22 minutes of ESPN at 3840x2160 59.94P XAVC-I - flawlessly.

I ran 8 separate tests and confirmed that 100% of the time the XQD with adapter recorded perfectly (also the SxS card).

As soon as I have the AliExpress card I'll do similar tests.

Hopeful this will be helpful for those looking for a rock solid solution that is more cost effective.

Still waiting for the AliExpress card. Will update after I have it and test results.

Best,

David

Hi David, your results and advice match what I already said in my Z280 master class 3 years ago, so nothing has changed. But even Sony warns in the operation manual there is more risk when you're not using SxS. I predict the AliExpress card will also work flawlessly.

I did get an answer pretty fast from Sony about the reason for light sensitivity difference of HD vs. 4K. But I had a follow-up question that I never got an answer to, and then it slipped my mind to come back and report. Sorry. They confirmed what I said about the difference having to do with pixel binning. But my follow-up question was why we don't see the same thing with other cameras when we switch from 4K to HD? Why is the Z280 the only camera that I am aware of that offers this feature? But I never got a reply to that question.

Sorry I missed this question.

I'm using the original XQD card adapters that came with the XQD cards. In the early days of XQD Sony supplied a USB3 reader with each card. Though most of the time I'm using the original SBAC-US30 SxS card reader that I've had for ages as that will read my SxS cards and with their respective adapters SD and XQD.

Chris Young

Sorry, I missed that question too. But I have no idea what model of XQD readers I use. I have two of them for my FS7 but they are at home and I am traveling for a few months.

Speaking of shooting with the Z280, I shot this small-town Memorial Day parade on Monday. I knew it would a very short parade (about 20 - 30 minutes) so I chose to use the Z280 in order to get as many different shots at a I could in a short time span. With a cinema camera or mirrorless camera it would have wasted too much time to change lenses and all the shots would have basically looked they same. A big advantage of the Z280 is the 17x lens so I can grab, wide, tight, and medium shots instantly.

As an experiment, I used Auto-Focus (with custom settings) for most of the parade, plus a customized version of Auto-ND for exposure. I also shot with a custom Scene File that I made for the Z280 and then further graded it in DaVinci Resolve to give it "nostalgic" feel with warmer sepia tones and a little bit of glow on the highlights -- including allowing some highlights blow out. I'm sure some people won't like the grading, but it is the look I chose.

The CODEC that I used was XAVC-I @ 59.94p. I then converted the footage in post to 23.98p, which gave me a 2.5x slow-motion look. Normally I would shoot in 23.98 and use S&Q Motion to capture slow-motion @ 60 fps, but the camera can't record sound when using S&Q Motion. In this case I wanted to capture the sounds of the parade in case I wanted to use it later in post or for ths stock clips I well sell.

https://youtu.be/1jJGu5yd5vI

It appears with the V5 manual that Sony supports Sony media XQD and SxS in all formats which is a change from earlier manuals. Like any other manufacturer they warn of using non Sony media in the case of XQD and SxS.

The read/write speed of XQD and SxS Pro+ are virtually identical so I don't see where this would be an issue but I do see the advantages of SxS giving you reporting on media health which may be of value.

I hope you are right on the AliExpress card and then you can tell your media friends who are on the lookout for now scarce adapters that it is the same one without the Sony name on it.

Looking forward to the followup from Sony.

I do have 2 questions for you. Why does the 280 not give you a true F1.9 when zoomed in but the viewfinder reports this? From what I can tell using the waveform monitor it seems to be about F3.1 at full zoom.

I have your BROLL and LOWLIGHT settings baked into the camera but am curious as to what adjustment you would recommend to knock down the contrast a notch? The image looks fantastic and I was shooting this in conjunction with the FS7 and didn't have time to get the FS7 to match and the image was a little less contrasty on the FS7 so for reference, I'd like to know if you could point me in the right direction.

Your Memorial Day footage was stellar. I like what you did with it in post.

Best,

David

Hi David, your results and advice match what I already said in my Z280 master class 3 years ago, so nothing has changed. But even Sony warns in the operation manual there is more risk when you're not using SxS. I predict the AliExpress card will also work flawlessly.

I did get an answer pretty fast from Sony about the reason for light sensitivity difference of HD vs. 4K. But I had a follow-up question that I never got an answer to, and then it slipped my mind to come back and report. Sorry. They confirmed what I said about the difference having to do with pixel binning. But my follow-up question was why we don't see the same thing with other cameras when we switch from 4K to HD? Why is the Z280 the only camera that I am aware of that offers this feature? But I never got a reply to that question.

Can anyone confirm if XAVC-L on the PXW-Z280 is 10-bit 4:2:2 color?

I cannot find this information anywhere in the manual.

Doug, do you know the answer to this?

XAVC-L at 4k is 4:2:0.
XAVC-L at 1080P 50 Mbps is 4:2:2
XAVC-L at 1080P 35 Mbps is 4:2:2

XAVC-I at 4K is 4:2:2 300 Mbps
XAVC-I at 1080P is 4:2:2 - 111 Mbps

Hope this helps!

Best,

David Anderson

PS - these were taken out of Doug Jensens Master class so I fully credit him with this information. Also, if you haven't, I highly recommend you rent his Z280 Master Class as there is no more comprehensive information available anywhere. Sony should use this as their manual.
Doug Jensen's Sony PXW-Z280 and PXW-Z190 Master Class - CHAPTER 1 FREE on Vimeo



Can anyone confirm if XAVC-L on the PXW-Z280 is 10-bit 4:2:2 color?

I cannot find this information anywhere in the manual.

Doug, do you know the answer to this?