I just finished a wedding video with all the preps,montages highlights,dances and everything. It took me quite sometime to complete. ........FAR TOO LONG.

Just looking for some suggestions on workflow and how others breakdown projects in order to save time.

Any suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks

Steve

i wait till panic sets in then work my ass off pulling all nighters..

no seriously, my biggest stuff up with wedding clients was giving them a delivery time which i couldnt physically meet, mind u i couldnt meet it as i had been in hospital for 5 and a half months so work was basically at a standstill... but the clients dont give a shit about that.. they jsut want a good video which shows a good clear image... no matter how good or shit the video is, they dont give a toss...

no seriously, they dont care.. i learnt this the hard way... but it doesnt mean that i dont have to care.. coz i do...

Ive seen some suppliers charging twice what i do, but the work is (to my eye) crappy, but the fact that they get the jobs out within 6 weeks is what keeps tehm going. The client obviously loves the work coz their the stars of teh show... but in the end, your potential clients wont be impressed with this.. u need to wow you potential clients to hook them... whether it be from ur work, ur gift of the gab, or both...

moving on..

when im ready to sleep, i set marker areas for prerendering, then render that particualr part, that part is then reimported into the piece above teh actual edit. This prerender is also on a seperate drive (ive had media drives fail me, only to have teh project saved by the prerender)
Then when im ready to finish the movie, i do one final render.

prerendering is much like rendering to a new track (vegas), or in the case of Matrox and RTx100, its exactly the same workflow as the "realtime" rendering thats needed to give u realtime output on the matrox.

I use vegas, and do it all manually. since i been doing this, its been a faster way to create highlights as well, as most of the editing and processing, grading, correcting etc has already been done, i jsut re-edit that prerendered piece...

Steve,

It's a battle I often go through. Keep in mind that the client is likely paying a flate rate. You have to think about how much work on a give project vs total projects to remain profitable.

A simple way to look at it. Is your typical wedding package price good for a week's income or two weeks etc.? For me, a wedding should take more than 40 hours (work week) from start to finish. That means shoot, input, log, edit, DVDs.

Input - usually a full day if its a 2 camera wedding, each with 4 hours of video.

Logging and syncing 2 cameras - that can be another day.

DVDs - can take up to a day. If you have a slower computer you can encode over night though

Doesn't leave much time for editing does it? If logged well that speeds that part up.

I create bins for difference parts of the wedding. It depends on type of wedding but they might be:

Scenics - stuff I'd use in an openning montage. Includes locations shots and preps.

Photo shoot - may be part of scenics if done at start of day or may be placed before/after ceremony or cocktail hour depending on where it actually occured.

Ceremony

Cocktail hour - shots I use to create a montage with music bed

Reception sub divided
Entrance
First dance
Cake cutting
Parent child dances
Tosses (bouquet, garter)
Speeches
Recpetion dancing - guests dancing, bride/groom dancing together in general
Special dances - any fun dances the DJ/Band/MC coordinates
Table shots - I create a montage of guests at the tables since not everyone makes it to the dance floor. Depending on time, this bin can be as simple as a sweep of each table of close ups of each guest.

Beauty shots - I create a bin and duplicate some of the best shots. They can be used in the openning scenics, before cake cutting, close. It depends where appropriate. This way I have my "selects" folder for montages. I create this bin as I work on other sections. This bin can have great bride/groom kisses or dance spince or looks etc, internal architecture, cake shots, special shots moving through past objects, etc. You get the idea.

That last bin is key. It gives me stuff to add to montages that are not time/even specific. Between this and the scenics bin I've narrowed my material to use.

I may do a rough cut of a montage first but save the details until last. They go much quicker since, at that point, I've looked at all the material closely, cut all the other sections, organized all the material. Having done all this prep, you can cut your montages in 4-6 hours, including fx, transitions, slow mos and laying in music.

I live with imperfect results since I'm capable of tweaking forever. Time counts and there are things you'll dislike (timing, a messy dissolve etc) that clients wont really notice . . . otherwise you'd have to raise your rates based on the time you want/need to put in to get it the way you want it.

Main thing is to do the body and save montages for last. Select your "special shots" as you edit the body.

Steve,

I create a bin

I'm assuming you use Vegas, so how are you putting you 'highlights' into a bin. Are these things that you render as you are going. Maybe my brain cells are misfunctioning.

I understand bins to the point of importing clips, photo's etc. But i'm curious if you are rendering as you go and 'binning' them?

Steve Gill,

What are you calling far too long .... weeks, months? A lot depends on what you have to work with, what you hope to end up with, and what the clients want (or what you agreed to provide them.) I set aside at least a full day just to transfer everything from the cameras and recorders to the hard drives.

After that, I sync all the 2-camera sequences on the timeline, and play them side-by-side to roughly decide on those cuts, then throw the single camera footage on the timeline and rough cut that stuff. This usually chews up at least a week.

Then I set the entire project aside for a week or so and work on something else. I like to think during that time my subconscious is constantly reprocessing and editing all those hours of video. It probably is just my imagination, but things seem to jell together better and faster for me if the project has been on the shelf for a while and I look at it with fresh eyes. Kind of like looking at someone else's project -- it's easier to be critical, or see alternatives, when looking at another person's stuff than when looking at your own.

To describe my workflow, I'd say I start with the absolute easiest no-brainer tasks just to get momentum, and go from there.

I used to start out putting a montage/hilight video together to have ready for the couple when they returned from the honeymoon. Naturally that was well received, but after a while I realized I was spending way too much time and probably shortening my life span doing that. I agree with Craig that montages are quicker to do after the main video is together.

Anyway, I try to have everything out the door in about a month barring any technical problems or creativity lapses.

I'm assuming you use Vegas


Actually using Final Cut Pro but bins should be common to most NLEs.

After importing I use DV Start/Stop detection. In FCP that adds markers to all the camera starts/stops. I then create subclips and put them in bins for each section as noted above. As I start cutting the sections, I label those beauty shots (eg "groom kisses bride dance") and duplicate the subclip and place that duplicate in a bin of beauty shots.

No need to render since they're individual shots without fx.

Actually using Final Cut Pro but bins should be common to most NLEs.

After importing I use DV Start/Stop detection. In FCP that adds markers to all the camera starts/stops. I then create subclips and put them in bins for each section as noted above. As I start cutting the sections, I label those beauty shots (eg "groom kisses bride dance") and duplicate the subclip and place that duplicate in a bin of beauty shots.

No need to render since they're individual shots without fx.

Heck if vegas does this, I'll try it.

I just finished a wedding video with all the preps,montages highlights,dances and everything. It took me quite sometime to complete. ........FAR TOO LONG.

Just looking for some suggestions on workflow and how others breakdown projects in order to save time.

Any suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks

Steve


I'll point out the obvious... two computers will allow you to perform two tasks simultaneously and in my case, I edit on my Powerbook and use my G5 to encode.

I guess I'm a minimalist... I don't log any cips or save to bins. I just capture in the general order they were shot and I'm left with sequentially numbered clips. Any clip can by scrubbed through in the viewer in seconds to see what's in them. Since I edit all the raw video first, I can't help but become thorougly familiar with where anything can be found before I put together a highlight video - last.

I edit long-form, and start to finish, a 2 camera wedding including one highlight takes me roughly 30-35 hours. If it's a quicky ceremony I can sometimes do it in about 25-30.

After importing I use DV Start/Stop detection. In FCP that adds markers to all the camera starts/stops.

Where can I find this "Start/Stop detection" command in FCP4?

Where can I find this "Start/Stop detection" command in FCP4?
- capture the whole tape
- select captured tape in browser
- mark > dv start/stop detect

i'm in front of a pc right now, so no fcp... forgive me if i get the names slightly off because i'm rattling this off from memory.

Where can I find this "Start/Stop detection" command in FCP4?

Mark (menu) - DVD Start/Stop Detect

The problem I have with your work flow above (how I used to do it in the "old" days) is that you can end up with bad dissolves if they cross over a camera start. For example, you do a 30 frame dissolve but pick an in point 5 frames after the start of a shot. You'll get frames from the previous shot in your dx.

Start/Stop gives you a marker for the beginning/ending of every shot (every time you started/stopped the camera). If you select all the markers you can make them subclips. They are in time code and numbered order but you can certain give certain ones discriptive names or seperate comments. This way you can note "great kiss shot" or whatever just on those clips you may want to find again for a montage. I'll end up shooting some key elements out of order depending on interruptions so it makes it easy to find where all my "guests at table" shots for my guest montage that I like doing.

- capture the whole tape
- select captured tape in browser
- mark > dv start/stop detect

i'm in front of a pc right now, so no fcp... forgive me if i get the names slightly off because i'm rattling this off from memory.

I'm going to utilize this more often! ummm... maybe from now on!

Double post!!

Mark (menu) - DVD Start/Stop Detect

Start/Stop gives you a marker for the beginning/ending of every shot (every time you started/stopped the camera). If you select all the markers you can make them subclips. They are in time code and numbered order but you can certain give certain ones discriptive names or seperate comments. This way you can note "great kiss shot" or whatever just on those clips you may want to find again for a montage. I'll end up shooting some key elements out of order depending on interruptions so it makes it easy to find where all my "guests at table" shots for my guest montage that I like doing.

Thanks Craig & A.J., I like how it doesn't just mark them but actually isolates them into sub-clips. ...very cool. I'm an idiot for not utilizing this functionality sooner. I think I never noticed it b4 because the command is greyed out when working in the timeline. Thanks!!!

Steve,

I'll post my workflow from a FCP5 perspective.

Day one would be logging and editing all of the real-time multi-cam multiple audio source work. That would be the ceremony, introductions, speeches and usually first dances. I color correct the cams before running multi-cam then lay the audio in over top where needed and the whole process is about 1.5-2X real-time. So a 30 min ceremony, plus 1 hour of speeches is about 3 hours and ready to export. That is with four-five cams for the ceremony and two for speeches, three for dances. I would then spend a little more time cutting the dances down and adding more attention to them. A regular dance that is 3:30 would come out at 1:30-2:00 and I have gotten great response from that.

During the above process, I also copy any small clips that will go into the highlights and actually put them on another timeline for the highlights. This also puts the clips in sequential order as I start the main editing in chronological order.

My approach to the montages depends on whether I have a clear cut idea of where I want to go or not. If I don't have a clue where I want it to go, I start watching the preps and cut out my favourite shots and drop them on a timeline. After a minute or so of 2-5 second clips are layed down, I start going over the soundtrack and playing them with the video and seeing what feel I get. I would then finish that prep clip and repeat for the next, and the reception montage.

At this point I would then have a large list of clips for the highlights already on a timeline and I would spend another 3-4 hours doing all the fine-tuning and color work. Likely about 3-4 hours for the prep clips, and reception montage, and 5-6 for the highlights.

One key point from above is that we only include a core amount that is edited in real-time. The rest goes into a montage (hightlights, reception or preps). I have had a few couples initially hesitant that something like the bouquet and garter toss would only have a couple shots in the highlights or reception montage, but after seeing everything, they were very happy with the layout. I find that this method keeps your workflow stable (which makes sense if you charge a flat rate), allows more time for the creativity portion, and make a better overall product.

You know now that I stop this was an excellent question, it give you guideance as to what to do, how to be prepared, and what application is most favored.

This is what an online community is all about. My question is can fcp 4.5 do the same as what was metioned ealier, because that's what I'm using.

Main diff between FCP4.5 and FCP5 is Multicam. I've had may own Multicam method I've been using since FCP3 and still use it.

I line up all the tracks and sync. Shrink each one using the motion tab so I can all cameras rolling simultaneously. I add a track to the top and leave that desiginated to the edit track. As I play I match frame to the camera I want and cut it to the top track. This way I have the top track to check edits and can go back to the source tracks underneath when I want to change something.

Dante,

Craig's method is an acceptable work around but multicam does offer a much more effecient process and is also excellent to quickly fine tune edits or change a camera angle. There is also a program called Livecut I believe, it is a free downoload and works with Final Cut Pro and is supposed to be much more closer to multicam than Craig's method.

I would argue that the integration of soundtrack in FCP5 is also one of the largest improvements. Being able to intelligently remove background noise from your audio in under 2 minutes is very helpful in my workflow.

I just finished a wedding video with all the preps,montages highlights,dances and everything. It took me quite sometime to complete. ........FAR TOO LONG.

Just looking for some suggestions on workflow and how others breakdown projects in order to save time.

Any suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks

Steve

Hi Steve,

This was actually a post from a while ago that I wrote pretty quickly but it might give you an idea of my workflow. I'm on FCP:

I've been doing weddings with FCP since it was 1.0 and started before there was anyone around to tell me what the best way was. So some of my methods may be clunky - I'm always open to new techniques.

First I capture everything. I have an FCP project template called, appropriately, wedding. I duplicate it and name it the name of the wedding. In the project file is a bin with empty sequences (timelines) for each of the sections of the wedding day numbered for how they will appear in the program, i.e. 1. photo montage, 2. pre-ceremony, 3. ceremony, 4. receiving line, 5. post ceremony, 6. reception, 7. wedding day montage etc. If you don't have a receiving line or photo montage to edit, just delete those sequences. I also have another Sequence called Whole Program. More about that later. Other bins include a bin called 'Special', 'Label Stills', DVD Resources (menu loops and backgrounds) and 'Media'. I put shots that may be destined for the wedding day montage in the special bin. The label stills bin is for freeze frames I'll use for the tape and dvd labels, and the media bin is for the captured footage. Inside the media bin is also a bin called 'Used'. When I’m done with a captured clip or tape, put it in the used bin. Instead of creating bins for your section shots (pre-ceremony, ceremony etc.) I the timelines for those sections as bins to store the shots you will use to construct those parts of the program. Click your captured material to the viewer, hit 'I' for in at the start of a shot you want to use, and 'O' for out and hit F10 to send it to the timeline. Navigate the timeline using J,K and L. As you know short cuts save an enormous amount of time. (The Contour Shuttle Pro automates this process to be even faster and more enjoyable.) What you're doing is sending all the shots that may potentially end up in that section down to the timeline, sort of like when you were a kid and you dumped the block box with on the floor to see what you've got to work with before you build anything. I call this process 'shot selection'. (Shot selection is what my sweatshop employees are doing for me.) When you're done you've got a timeline full of useful shots. Lay down some music and start cutting the resources into a coherant piece. Do this for each section, except the multi-camera ceremony, which is a totally different way of cutting. Does that make any sense??? In a nutshell: Your raw capture is in the viewer, you cut out what is good enough to be in the final program and move it to the timeline, and then you refine it there. No additional bins (confusing), no subclips (limiting), just the selected media on each timeline ready for editing. The last step, after all the timelines are rendered (with fades to black at the beginning and end) is to open the sequence called 'Whole Program', and highlight all the content from the sequences of your program, and lay them on the 'Whole Program' timeline. (FCP 5 will maintain the connection to the render files.) Double check that everything has been rendered, Mixdown the audio (very important!) and dump the project to tape directly off the timeline. For shorter versions of the same program simply duplicate the 'Whole Program' sequence, label it 'short version', and cut that down to what you want.

I am very impressed with the responses to this question and feel more comfortable going into my next edit.

Mr WATERS was correct in saying that is what the online community is all about. Thanks to everyone who took the time to post a reply.

Much appreciated.

Keep them rolling!!


Steve

Joel,

You said mixdown the audio...do you mean mixing for levels or are you refering to dumping multiple tracks down to a single stereo pair. I ask because I've seen some wierdness with fcp4.5 on the audio side that I was only able to resolve by exporting a mix of my audio and re-laying it in the timeline. Is there something that fcp doesn't like that I should know about?

Also, no subclips for you huh? I tried my first one using them but it took forever. Seemed quicker to just go thru and cut up as needed. If I wanted a little more I could just "open" up more of the clip. I did have some odd bugs here and there with slomo though. Had to delete the speed attribute on a few occasions to reset the clip.

Thanks,
Scott

imho, fcp 5 is an essential upgrade for multicam alone, especially for this business. i use anywhere from 3 to 5 cameras during the ceremony, and it saves tons of time. add to that the ability to send audio to soundtrack pro for easy cleanup and i was sold.

That is exactly what I was getting at in my post AJ.

Scott,

I've found subclips to help quite a bit, but I only seperate them roughly, so that if I shoot some of the reception on the same tape as the ceremony, I would make two subclips. I tried making more and labelling them but it seemed like too much of a time trap.

I have also had problems with speed settings, especially when I use the fit to fill option when putting a clip on the timeline. It works the first time, but if you then fit to fill a second time with the same clip, it places a completely different clip and you need to get the original again.

I'de like to know what Joel was referring to with the audio as well. I often export up to 8 tracks of audio and haven't noticed any problems, but now I';m wondering what I'm missing.

There are some really detailed workflows on here, so I won't bother posting my entire workflow. I'll just give some quick tips.

#1
Set up a deadline schedule for yourself. I shoot multi-camera all day weddings that include rehearsal footage, rehearsal dinner footage, girls getting ready, guys golfing or whatever, guys getting ready, bride getting ready, ceremony, reception, highlights, deleted scenes and so on. While I'm capturing footage, I put each section of the coming project on a whiteboard, and give each section a specific date to be completed by. This helps you feel much less overwhelmed, and gives you additional motivation to stay on schedule.

#2
I work on the ceremony first almost every time. The ceremony is the most planned part of any wedding, so it helps to get the feel for the mood that the couple created. I also find that the ceremony is usually the easiest piece to edit (reception is sometimes easier). And I'm a firm believer in a former poster's tip to edit what's easy to get momentum rolling.

#3
I have sequences (FCP term) set up for each section before I start working. This allows me to add appropriate clips to the highlights sequence, or the deleted scenes sequence while I'm working through the rest of the wedding. It saves me from having to go back through all the footage later and try to remember where I saw something.

#4
I always, always, always work on the highlight video last. I feel that this is the most important piece of the video, and also the most difficult and time-consuming. I think it's vital to work on every other aspect of the wedding first for many reasons. It keeps you from getting bogged down. It allows you to start setting aside clips. It allows you to get a feel for the ENTIRE wedding experience before creating a video that is supposed to represent that. It also requires the most creativity usually, and that leaves something to look forward to.

#5
I never promise ANY deadline date to my clients for delivery. This has saved my butt soooo many times. Just this season I had one of my hard drives fail unexpectedly, which forced me to start over completely on a wedding. This pushed my schedule out, but because I only give ESTIMATED times for completion, my clients don't feel like they are being screwed if I have to take longer. I also explain to them, when things do go longer for various reasons, that their project is very important, and that staying on schedule is less important to me than making sure they get a quality finished product.


Hope some of that helps!