So I sold my Z150 earlier this year and have been using my NX80 and FS7 for events work and live corporate webcasts. I'm getting tired of using the FS7 for some events work like this and I decided that the Z190 should be enough to do what I need,

I purchased the Z190 yesterday and it will be here on Friday. So, I decided to download the user manual and get a head start on anything new about this camera. I then come across a section that says the Z190 can't record 4k simultaneously to both cards! WTF????....I mean, seriously...WTF???

This MUST be a mistake! Sony writes 4k to both cards on a HUGE variety of MUCH CHEAPER Handycam, Alpha, NXCAM and XDCAM cameras. How is it possible that Sony has DISABLED this KEY reliability function that it has previously allowed before on so many cheaper cameras????

There is no excuse If this is a "technical" problem, They only need to clone the data copy buss to both cards. Did they think people would not notice this was a huge problem? If lowering the media reliability was a deliberate STUNT to pressure people to move into the Z280, then this is a shameful and offensive tactic on Sony's part. Dont hurt your good name by blocking the ability for your customers to record reliably to SD cards!...ESPECIALLY ON A MODEL THIS HIGH UP YOUR PRODUCT LADDER!!

If this is true,..I FIND THIS DOWNRIGHT DISGUSTING!. The manual says the 1080 simultaneous writing IS allowed but 4k is not!!! I'm hoping this is a simple user manual misprint and if is, I take it all back and apologize in advance to Sony. if this is not true, my decades of love and faith in Sony will continue unaffected. If this is true, whoever made this decision at Sony needs to be fired. Don't drag your good name into the mud over a stupid, silly, trick like this.

CT

Edit: WTF = What The Fudge ;- )

It's true. But I don't get why it is so important and I'd never use if it had it. I have NEVER used simultaneous on any previous camera before the Z190/Z280 and I'd never use it now. I'm not saying you don't have a right to be outraged over it and ready to storm the castle with burning torches, but for me it is a big nothing.

BTW, even the FS7 and F55 can't record 4K to both cards. Only NXCAM products have been able to do that, such as the FS5. I am not aware of any XDCAM products that can record 4K to two cards.

.ESPECIALLY ON A MODEL THIS HIGH UP YOUR PRODUCT LADDER!!


You think a $3800 camera is high up the product ladder? It's only $750 more than a Z150. It's amazing what Sony packs into the Z190 for the price but it is certainly not high up the ladder.

XQD and SxS cards are more robust and trustworthy. SD cards are better today and no, I have never lost data on good (SanDisk) SD cards "yet". I also have a utility that I run that tests my SD cards and maps out any bad cells identified on a card. This allows you to throw it away. (or just give it to your wife as a gift)

My only point is that it's VERY nice to have a second backup SD card when when recording so if one card does have a bad cell, the other can save our butts. Sony strongly markets and touts this in their materials....but then blocks it in the Z190 in 4k!

It's true, the Z190 is a relatively "cheap" camcorder. However, it's not a consumer grade model like HandyCams and Alphas. The Sony NX80, X70, FS5, FS5-II, X90, NX200, AX700, Z150 and A7-III are even cheaper (not FS5-II) and Sony is happy to give THEM dual (backup) recording!! So those are Alpha, HandyCam, NXCAM and XDCAM products.. (Maybe Sony feels consumers need that reliability but Z190 Pros dont?")

It just seems bizarre that Sony would block that ability in 4k but allow it in 1080....especially with cheap SD cards media. I hate silly stunts and games like this. Sony, if you want to cripple a camera, I get it, do it...but do it with real features and functions. Dont cripple the actual recording reliability of the camera like this....and don't make many CHEAPER cameras have that ability for heavens sake! It just looks really bad when consumer cameras do more that "Pro" cameras do.

I dont have high expectations for the Z190. I only have simple tasks for it. Mostly recording corporate lectures, live events streaming into a video switcher, just simple lite duty stuff. I "might" take it to Alaska with me next year for wildlife hiking if that 700+MM zoom lens looks OK. So,...I'm not asking for this Z190 to be amazing. I just need it to do what lower Sony cameras can do with write safety on SD cards.

CT

I get why it is important for those who want dual recording capability in the same quality, it can be to give a client a card on location and to take the other card with you or just to have a back up in case one card contains corrupt data, it just is a weird Sony does add that functionality to their cheaper camera's. Who knows, soon they will give you that option with a paid upgrade. :)

Yes!...if Sony charges a couple of hundred dollars to unlock the 4k side of dual card backup,...I'd gladly buy it!

Sony...PLEASE charge us for a Z190 unlock code! (even though they give it for free on every other cheaper model)

Put that money into better cards that you can trust and you then won't even need dual record. :-)

Even the best SD cards on the market are not guaranteed. SD cards have the least reliable design of the three. (SxS, XQD and SD)

I just want Sony to stop playing silly games like this. Especially when they allow so many other cheaper cameras to have it.

CT

Why do you characterize it as silly games? I think it is so childish when people take product features (or lack thereof), pricing, subscription plans, or whatever personally. If you like someone's product, buy it. If you don't like it, then find another. But I never get angry when a product doesn't have features I may have wanted on a product. Sure, if a product does not perform as advertised, that is something different. But it's not games, it's not a personal attack, and it's nothing to get so riled up over. Move on if the product isn't want you want and buy something else from Sony or another company. No product is ever going to have all the features you/I want. That's life. Accept it and stop whining. And yes, it is whining. Go back and read your own posts if you don't believe me. Very unprofessional.

I'm not so willing to give up on stuff like this. Sony HAS listened to it's customers in the past!

When the FS5 first came out, Sony decided to set it's minimum SLOG 0db to a noisy 3200 ISO. They deliberately raised the sensor pre-amp to make it noisier than the 2000 ISO 0db of the FS7 and FS700.

It was unnecessarily high so I called Sony at Teaneck NJ and complained. I sent several emails to two of the Sony reps that I talk to at NAB every year. (you know them too!) I complained on forums everywhere I could. I begged them to lower their sensor preamp to match the FS7 and FS700's 2000 ISO. What happened two firmware versions later? Sony reduced it's FS5 0db to 2000 ISO and it cleaned up SLOG considerably! Now,...I'm not saying I'm SURE "I" caused that...but Sony at least DID hear my voice. I know that as a fact.

I have complained about several things that Sony has eventually come through on. 100Mbp/s 4k on the X70 instead of the 60Mbp/s. Teaneck literally told me TWICE: "I'm sorry the X70's internal motherboard tops out at 60mbp/s 4k...it physically can't do 100mbp/s" It took a year of stomping my feet...but Sony eventually gave us 100mbp/s! I demanded focus peaking be added to the VG10...6 months later,...we got it!!! I can give a couple more examples too!

Doug,....we both know that Sony WILL listen to it's customers and they DO value our feedback. Sometimes they have a change of heart and eventually AGREE with us! I'm hoping they listen again on this one as it will make their Z190 match what other cheaper Sony models can do.

I'm not throwing in the towel on Sony yet!...I'm keeping the faith! Let's see if the good folks at Sony change their minds.(I think sometimes we can make them feel guilty!!)

CT ;-)

Oh, I know they listen. They even sent me to Japan once to consult with the engineers and I have participated in several one-on-one private sessions in the back halls of NAB. This year I brought a two-page proposal for a new camera and gave it to the Japanese engineers at NAB and within 24 hours I already had follow-up questions from people who were back in Tokyo. I don't know what has become of it since then, but I know they listened and it will have an impact one way or another even if they don't build the exact camera I have proposed.

All, I'm saying is this is not the place to rant and rave because it looks silly and Sony isn't reading anything here. If you want to effect changes, I wish you luck, but I highly doubt this is the place or you have used the right tone. BTW, of all the things I would want to change on the Z190, your idea is far down on my list of priorities. How about being limited to only 60 fps in HD? That is a big mistake and something I started lobbying to get changed clear last April. But in the mean time, you don't see me calling it "disgusting".

now if we'd only have had dual recoding betasp tapes drop-outs might have been a thing of the past ;-)

Put that money into better cards that you can trust and you then won't even need dual record. :-)

I would be interested to know which exact type of cards never fail.

Oh, I know they listen.

My impression about this is that manufacturers would listen to the regular person if something did not work as expected but only when a lot of people would start to complain online on forums and facebook because that would have an effect on their sales.

Only one person ranting about what he/she thinks should have been designed or implemented different is something they most likely won't be bothered about because often those limitations are build in for a reason.

there can be exceptions though,I got the jvc ls300 as soon as it came out and like most semi- or professional cameras it had a switch on the side to toggle between 3 different iso values, the camera also had a dial that could controll either shutter or f-stop. I couldn't understand why they didn't assign ISO to that dial as well so one could use it to quickly controll and finetune the ISO, something that could be very valuable for a run and gun shooter.

I mentioned it a lot of times on this forum and was as far as I knew the only person complaining about this (to me at least) obvious missing functionality.

To my big surprise, the next firmware update came out and JVC added that functionality, now it might have been coincedence but I doubt it was and I still believe that my complaint but more the reasoning that I put behind it why it was so important could have been picked up by a JVC representative on this forum and passed along to the engineers who most likely just had a to add a few lines of code to make it happen.

I"m just saying that you don't always have to accept like it is and move on like you say, sometimes they do monitor forums and if you are lucky they will listen. Sony however does not strike me as a company that takes user complaints about camera functionality that seriously, if they cripple a camera it can be for very specific reasons, maybe to protect a higher end model sales or with the intention to sell it later on as a paid upgrade.

I purchased the Z190 yesterday and it will be here on Friday. So, I decided to download the user manual and get a head start on anything new about this camera. I then come across a section that says the Z190 can't record 4k simultaneously to both cards! WTF????....I mean, seriously...WTF???



Cliff you say you use an FS7. What mode on that camera can record simultaneously to both cards in 4K/UHD?? None that I'm aware of? Not even in XAVC-L 50p @150Mbps. I'm not in front of the camera to check but I'm sure dual 4k recording is not possible on the FS7?? Or is it?. Also remember with the FS7 that's to 400MB write XQD cards not SD cards. Besides a few cameras that do simultaneously record stop on both cards if one of the cards fails during the record session so no massive advantage there.

Leslie re dropouts. I remember a shoot with our ex Prime Minister Bob Hawke. I used to only use Fuji tapes on the SP Beta as I ever only had minimal dropouts with Fujis. The CH9 producer for the shoot turned up with a box of Sony SP tapes and said "Here use these.". Turned out to be a disaster for dropouts. Nearly every close shot of Bob's head had dropouts.going through. It took us a day in post capturing the bad frames on a Qantel Paint Box and painting through the dropouts with data from the previous or later fields.Then going through the painful task of doing single frame time code accurate video inserts to fix the problem. Never used Sony tapes again!

Chris Young

chris,

mainly used fuji too, but got good deals on sony, which, by and large, were reasonably reliable, but ampex, oi vey!!!

btw. how's the navy doco progressing?

Fuji for me too. I'd let clients provide either brand if they wanted to bring their own tape stock, but nothing else was allowed into my camera. I always carried at least one extra box of 10 all the time.

Oh, I know they listen. They even sent me to Japan once to consult with the engineers and I have participated in several one-on-one private sessions in the back halls of NAB. This year I brought a two-page proposal for a new camera and gave it to the Japanese engineers at NAB and within 24 hours I already had follow-up questions from people who were back in Tokyo. I don't know what has become of it since then, but I know they listened and it will have an impact one way or another even if they don't build the exact camera I have proposed.

All, I'm saying is this is not the place to rant and rave because it looks silly and Sony isn't reading anything here. If you want to effect changes, I wish you luck, but I highly doubt this is the place or you have used the right tone. BTW, of all the things I would want to change on the Z190, your idea is far down on my list of priorities. How about being limited to only 60 fps in HD? That is a big mistake and something I started lobbying to get changed clear last April. But in the mean time, you don't see me calling it "disgusting".

You are right Doug, the tone of my original post WAS too harsh. I reacted with too much initial anger at first. So, yes, I do take back some of my emotion on those first posts. I have since "cooled down" about this. ;-)

I still feel very strongly about the Z190 needs dual writing in 4k like so many cheaper cameras do. Sony tells us how great this reliability is and I believe them. Just dont allow it in 1080 and block it in 4k.

I will (calmly) tell this to other buyers and Sony reps over and over again for a long time in the hopes that Sony will eventually have a change of heart. Maybe I can spark more and more people to also pressure Sony to lift the 4k dual card writing backup embargo!

I would love to ask Sony for higher than 60p frame rates but I feel I might be getting greedy! (besides,...my super cheap Sony NX80 can do 120p!)

I also want the standard 100mbp/s 4k option added. I shoot long events sometimes and 100mbps would be better than 150mbps for that talking head podium stuff.

I do bitch at Sony sometimes but God knows I love them!

I still feel very strongly about the Z190 need dual writing in 4k

You said in your first post you needed this for reliability but that is not necessary as Doug uses cards that never fail, once we know which cards you can use that second slot for longer recordingtimes.

I have never had an SD, XQD, SxS, or AXS card fail on any Sony camera at any time. Unless of course, I was purposely using a "Not Recommended Media" card for testing purposes.

Christopher Young - No,...not on the FS7. I'm less concerned about XQD cards or even Sony SxS card cameras than I am about SD cards. My rant is mostly about SD card dual writing which makes the use of "consumer" SD cards just as reliable or even more reliable than using single professional media.

I have never had an SD, XQD, SxS, or AXS card fail on any Sony camera at any time. Unless of course, I was purposely using a "Not Recommended Media" card for testing purposes.

I buy the best SD cards I can get, which I believe are SanDisk and Sony SD cards. I maintain and do memory cell inspection checks every now and then to get more peace of mind. To this day, I have never lost data on an SD card....yet. I DO know friends that have been very unlucky with SD cards. About 4 years ago, a friend had a corrupt SD card and he sent it off to a service to restore the data and they couldn't do it!

With Sony's touted dual writing feature, it would be rare to lose an SD card memory controller or memory cell and EXTREMELY rare to have TWO cards go bad at the exact same time.

Statistically, dual SD card writing could be THE most "corrupt-free" recording technique that anybody could ask for...even safer than single XQD or single SXS!

CT

I have never had an SD, XQD, SxS, or AXS card fail on any Sony camera at any time. Unless of course, I was purposely using a "Not Recommended Media" card for testing purposes.

That means you got lucky, just like I have been untill now. There are enough reports from users that have had issues with corrupt data on recommended media, just follow some facebook groups and there is plenty of horrorstories that are told.

I also knew you couldn't name a card that doesn't fail because it doesn't exist, just because you never had a problem doesn't mean it can't happen, the safest way is still to connect a external recorder because even with dual cards you can have corrupt data if the camera locks up, a external recorder can still save the file so you don't have to spend a lot of money to get your data recovered from your sd cards.

Statistically, dual SD card writing could be THE most "corrupt-free" recording technique that anybody could ask for...even safer than single XQD or single SXS!

Not if your camera locks up during record, if the file can't be closed then both cards are affected, only a external recorder will save your data in such an event, in any other case you have to send the data to a specialised recovery company.

If you want to wear a belt and suspenders, that is your right. But I feel totally confident recording on a single card. As for the horror stories of cards failing, when you look into some of those stories closer it is often a case of operator error, using cheap cards, using fake cards, or some other factor that isn't going to affect me. Not all stories -- but most of the ones I have actually investigated. And I hvae tried to look into some of them for more info. Don't accept those stories of failures at face value. My track record of 100% perfection on thousands of shoots with memory cards going back to 2007 is proof enough for me. If you want 100% protection. Sit at home and don't shoot anything.

It's not that I can't name cards that don't fail, I don't want to take the time to give you an inventory of my stash.

BTW, Betacam failed on me at least once a year or more.

Got work to do, so I will leave this conversation for now. Bye.

If you want to wear a belt and suspenders, that is your right.

This made my morning.

That IS awesome, Doug, you have now given me something completely NEW for me to be obsessively paranoid about!!

Dang it!...I'm going to be standing in front of my tripod at my next gig thinking:.....

"Crap....what if my belt fails and my pants fall down in front of this customer!!!"

Great....ugg...it's off to WalMart now. I need to buy some "work" suspenders. Can I charge this on my company card under equipment costs???

CT

lol...that WAS funny!

If you want to wear a belt and suspenders, that is your right..

If you want to wear a belt only, that's also your right if you like to get caugth with your pants down, maybe never but who knows sooner or later.

Also, I wasn't talking about cheap and fake cards if you read my comment again but cards recommended by the manufacturer.

It's not that I can't name cards that don't fail, I don't want to take the time to give you an inventory of my stash.

You don't have to waste your time because you can't name a card that never ever fails because it doesn't exist.

chris,

mainly used fuji too, but got good deals on sony, which, by and large, were reasonably reliable, but ampex, oi vey!!!

btw. how's the navy doco progressing?

Ampex and those shocking 3M Beta tapes. Too slippery!

EP #6 finishing in post. Waiting for the govt to cough up more $$$s for 7 and 8. That probably won't happen until after the next election, May '19?? Who knows. The whole thing has been in fits and starts funding wise.

Chris Young

Fuji for me too. I always carried at least one extra box of 10 all the time.

Same here!

Chris Young

That means you got lucky, just like I have been untill now. There are enough reports from users that have had issues with corrupt data on recommended media, just follow some facebook groups and there is plenty of horrorstories that are told.

I'll raise my hand as someone who hasn't always been so lucky. I've personally experienced failures with SD, XQD and most recently a cFast card. Luckily I've never had a failure on an SxS card. Whenever I'm using a camera that allows dual recording I do so if possible (and if we have enough cards.)

Noa also makes a good point about the potential camera lock-up. With my most recent cFast card failure, we dodged a bullet because the card failed only a couple of minutes into the first take on the card - it was in a C300Mkii - and the camera locked up completely - requiring us to pull power to get the camera to reset. Luckily we were doing green screen interviews and the failure was in the second camera angle, but we were unable to salvage anything from that card. Interestingly enough the client had requested dual record - but the production company providing the gear hadn't provided us with enough cards for the day to be able to do that.

But often failures mean just not having the footage. A couple of years back I had an XQD card failure (FS7 / Sony XQD card) where we lost all of our establishing b-roll shots of a huge banner mounted on the front of the NY Stock Exchange building (for a company that went public that morning) when the XQD card failed later that afternoon. It was sent to Sony, who were unable to recover anything from the card. Shortly after that the production company bought Shoguns to go out with each of their FS7's.

Experiences like these have made me a big fan of dual recording, by whatever means available!

I'm not a shooter with a long list of impressive credits but I like to think I do a respectable job, that I'm conscientious and work hard to give people what they ask of me. One of the very few times that I've filmed someone with household name recognition was the one time I had a card failure. Fortunately I had a second camera running and I was able to cover the shot, not in an ideal way, but "good enough". I've had my eye on the Z190 but I will never buy another camera that doesn't have full dual card recording.

Doug, may your continued good luck never let you down, but do know that thats what it is, even when using the best cards available.

You realize, of course, that you have just doomed me to have a card failure. Or perhaps I have done it to myself with my cavalier attitude in my postings. Either way, I am preparing for the inevitable disaster that must be waiting for me soon. Karma, baby, karma.

Yes Doug,
You lead a charmed existence. But my impression has been that most of the time you are likely to be your own client and your shoots don't require either large union crews or talent salaries in the 5 figures a day range. So if there's a tech issue it doesn't become your head on a platter.
Having dealt with various 'loss' issues over the years, I'd just prefer to have a viable backup whenever possible. And I'm probably not the only guy you know who routinely brings 3 or 4 cameras to a 2-camera shoot...

just popping back to double up on the suggestion of using an external recorder.

IF, you're so concerned, worried, etc., then dual recording cards aren't much use if the camera stops recording to both cards if there is a fault. better yet invest in a ninja or whatever external recorder rocks your boat. damn sigh fast in transferring, etc.,

that said, in almost 10 years of extensively shooting hdv then hd to card (on various sony camcorders), i've never had a failure either. sandisk or sony media only. i do have some other (known) brands but only use them in my dslr's - with no failures either.

chris, will look forward to seeing the doco as and when released - yeah, funding for anything that isn't pork barrelling is fast disappearing...

Dave, how many of those shoots that you allude to are being done in 4K?
BTW, are you really making two backup copies each of two 4K files from multiple cameras on your shoots? The data load must be massive.

Hi Doug,
Been shooting more 4k lately, so yes, quite a bit of transfer time is spent on data. Will often have two computers with us on set for data transfers. We'll usually start doing transfers around 11am, and continue throughout the day - but try hard not to do any card erasing/re-using during the day.
Normally we don't copy the 'dual-recorded' second card - it's just recorded in case there's an obvious card failure on the primary card, and then ideally held for a bit longer before erasing (if possible). But everything that's shot does go to at least two separate drives before leaving the location.
My last couple of card failures - cFast and XQD - have been with 4k footage, but my feeling is that the cards would have experienced similar failures at 1080 as well, since in neither case did it seem to be a problem based on data transfer speed.
My earlier SD card failures were at 1080, and thankfully have had no issues to date with newer UHSii SD cards.

Where did you purchase those cFast and XQD cards that you experienced failure with? What brand?

Gary --
In both of those cases the cards were owned by the production companies that owned the cameras.
Both of the production companies tend to buy media and accessories from B&H and Adorama, though I can't be sure of where the specific cards were purchased (and because they own numerous cards, I don't know if they could necessarily trace them back.)
The cFast card was a 256GB Lexar.
The XQD was definitely a Sony (it was sent to them for attempted recovery) - I think it was a 128 G-series card.

I think the point I've been making is not that one or another company makes cards that are likely to fail -- because that's not something I believe. My feeling is that in the same way we say 'don't ask whether a hard drive will fail - but when' and thus take precautions accordingly, memory cards may fail as well, though just not as frequently. So it makes sense to be able to record a 'simultaneous backup' copy whenever possible. So dual record is a nice feature to have on a camera, particularly smaller cameras where you don't want to be encumbered by the size/weight/power requirements of an external recorder.

The cFast card was a 256GB Lexar.

Lexar cards and the C300 Mark II generally don't mix, especially if the card in question was a 3400x, not a certified 3500x. Every single cFast corruption issue I have ever heard of (outside of noname brands), was the Lexar 3400x with the C300 Mark II.