So vimeo have shut down my account after randomly selecting 3 videos and claimed they were in breach of copyright laws. This despite the fact the videos had already been online for 3+ years plus I had already removed them before receipt of their email anyhow! I had been using vimeo for 15 years and had hundreds of films on line and now I have none. Should I move to you tube, what copyright free music sites do people use for weddings? Love to start a discussion on the complicated world of online music. Many thanks.

Lots of questions: Did you get takedown notices for the 3 infringing videos? Why did you take them down? Why do you say the 3 videos were randomly selected? Did you have other infringing videos on Vimeo? When you say "copyright free music site", do you mean "royalty free"?

FWIW, YouTube is very aggressive about detecting and removing infringing media.

Most of my videos had popular music attached for which I had purchased ppl licences and a prs limited liability licence so was under the impression all was legit, especially as I did it for 15 years without a problem. I received one notification about a year ago for which vimeo automatically removed it. Another one earlier this year that was also removed. As a result, I then removed all videos that had been posted prior to the last 18 months, this was done over a month ago. Last week I received a notication of my account being shutdown despite the fact I had not received a third violation. When I asked about this, they claimed there were 5 new offences for which they apologised for not having notified me of. Strange thing is all 5 of these were very old videos that had already been removed by me anyhow. With regards to YouTube, I thought they allowed popular music if you didn't mind ads. Finally, yes I am also asking about quality royalty free music sites people might recommend. Thanks

The owner of eoshd has also written a post about getting 2 DMCA claims on his vimeo account with a 3rd one resulting in removing his entire account including all videos. It looks like Vimeo is being pressured to act against third party copyright infringments but they are a bit brutal in doing so, instead of only removing the films that don't comply it looks like they take everything down after a 3rd warning, even if there is properly licensed music in some of the videos.

Finally, yes I am also asking about quality royalty free music sites people might recommend. Thanks

I use artlist.io

That looks a good site, Noa. Do you select the music from there or does your client have an input?

I have filed over 30 DMCA takedown complaints with Vimeo where my footage was stolen and they deleted several member accounts. I applaud their aggressive efforts. On the flip side with YouTube I have received several copyrighted music complaints. I sent them the licenses that I had purchased and the complaints were resolved.

That looks a good site, Noa. Do you select the music from there or does your client have an input?

For everything that goes online I use artlist music as there is no limit in how many songs you can use in a film, it's a yearly fee I pay of 200euro which is very cheap taken the nr of songs I have allready downloaded and used. My wedding clients have no input in the music I use in everything that is shared online.

I have filed over 30 DMCA takedown complaints with Vimeo where my footage was stolen

That's what you get when your films look so good :D but it's a good example how DMCA claims work both ways, ripping parts of your film without approval is the same as using music without approval.

That's what you get when your films look so good :D but it's a good example how DMCA claims work both ways, ripping parts of your film without approval is the same as using music without approval.

Not really. If you're ripping of others videos and passing that work off as your own, then that is worse than using copyright music in your videos, surely.

Which would annoy you the most, finding a business using your videos to promote their venue without first seeking permission but at least crediting you as the creator of the video or someone passing off your work as something they did.

I've experience of the former but not the latter and I've no issue with one of my videos appearing on someone's website promoting their business. As long as the video shows it's my work and not theirs.

With music, it's different. Some live recordings of say the 1st Dance and the Ceremony for instance require copyright music and whether you place it online or not, if its in a video it's still an infringement.

But then is it. If YouTube montises some of this music in videos with artists approval and also where in the UK we can purchase a license to use such music in a DVD and ironically making a payment that doesn't go to the artist or record company unlike YouTube; its a more complex issue than someone ripping of your work and passing it off as your own. The law seems to pick and choose what is an infringement and depending on country, you get a different rule.

Then again aren't vows also copyright.... If so, then if you use vows or even any readings in your videos, you're as guilty as using music. What about speeches. What if a joke or comment is not of the person speakings creation, then there's copyright there potentially if sections were ripped from the internet.

Copyright is hardly black and white and I'd be surprised if any Videographer doesn't have something that could be potentially challenged in their videos. Online or not.

Not really. If you're ripping of others videos and passing that work off as your own, then that is worse than using copyright music in your videos, surely.

It's worse, yes, but it is stealing in both cases when you make money from using it to promote your business.

Which would annoy you the most, finding a business using your videos to promote their venue without first seeking permission but at least crediting you as the creator of the video or someone passing off your work as something they did.

Both would annoy me equally, wouldn't make any difference to me.

Sabam, the music rights organisation in my country is very clear about music used in weddingvideos online, you pay for a license and if you don't and they find out, they will invoice you accordingly. You would be surprised how much commercial music would cost these days and it could bancrupt my business. Everyone is free to do whatever they want, I pay for the music I use so I don't have to fear getting my account on vimeo taken down or having to close my business, it's a small price I have to pay to assure musicians get payed for their work and not have to worry about losing my business.

If taking down all accounts on vimeo that use commercial music and have been warned about it 3 times would mean that my films would not buffer so much then I would have a reason to stay on vimeo. :)

But then is it.

I know you do use commercial music in your marryoke films on your website and that youtube allows it and place links to other videos at the end of it, some of which can even be competitors videos.

The tricky part is that in my country Sabam doesn't give a rats ass what youtube allows you to use, if I have a jealous competitor that sends a link to my videos to sabam they will ask me for a license for all songs that I use and if I can't provide they will invoice.

Sabam could go out and search for those who are guilty of copyright infringments and they are easy to find but they don't seem to do that, they will act however if they would receive a complaint, that is something I'd like to avoid + having a competitors video popping up in a feed at the end of my films would also be unacceptable but that's the price I guess you pay for getting someting for "free".

Thanks Noa. IMO U.S. copyright law looks at stealing video and music as the same. Personally I know several budding music composers and believe me their work is just as dear to them as my video work is to me. Early on I used a lot of music from incompetech.com. Once I exhausted his free library I have paid for music licenses. Mainly from jamendo, audionetwork, and Pond5. In a few instances I have been fortunate enough to receive written permission from the record company and composer/owner. I keep records of all of this in case there is a DCMA complaint made so I can defend myself. So far so good. It really isn't difficult to stay on the right side of things if you research and understand the music rights you are purchasing.

I do not consider myself a music thief. I have always paid the necessary music copyright charges to PRS and MCPS. This licence presumes that not so many people are going to watch the Dvd or blu ray, making the charges affordable. I fail to see how a password protected online film that is not visible on vimeo (as I always make sure this option is checked) is any different. Only my client gets the link and the password plus I put nothing on social media.

I know you do use commercial music in your marryoke films on your website and that youtube allows it and place links to other videos at the end of it, some of which can even be competitors videos.

The tricky part is that in my country Sabam doesn't give a rats ass what youtube allows you to use, if I have a jealous competitor that sends a link to my videos to sabam they will ask me for a license for all songs that I use and if I can't provide they will invoice.

Sabam could go out and search for those who are guilty of copyright infringments and they are easy to find but they don't seem to do that, they will act however if they would receive a complaint, that is something I'd like to avoid + having a competitors video popping up in a feed at the end of my films would also be unacceptable but that's the price I guess you pay for getting someting for "free".

So how do you deal with music in the Ceremony or the 1st Dance. Do you replace the music with copyright music or leave it in. If you're delivering any video with copyright music included even if live audio from a Ceremony; I'd you're including vows or readings that are copyright, you are stealing and using it for your Business. It surely makes no difference if the video is online or sent privately, other than with one you're less likely to be caught.

With Youtube, how is using copyright music in your videos stealing, if the artist has granted approval so they can make extra cash from it. YouTube is very good at removing videos where music has not got approval. In fact it's this issue why I've taken to delivering my Marryokes privately. Only a rare few now go to YouTube these days where necessary. In the UK we can purchase a license to use music in our videos for DVD distribution, something not available in other countries and where the money doesn't go to the artist.

My point is not to defend bad behaviour but simply to raise the issue that the use of copyright music is not black and white. I'm sure some artists would be flattered to have their music used. I actually met a singer who has had their music used for Marryokes and he loved the idea and the videos. Shame no one has requested me to use his music for my Marryokes as I could have asked for permission. ;)

I suppose it depends on the person. You Noa would take offense to have your videos used without your permission. I'm more flexible. As long as no one claims my work as their own, they're free to use it to promote their Business or link it. In fact one such video was downloaded, chopped up and sections used for new videos, still with a link to the original. Again no one asked. I just discovered it. I'm not so precious about my work that I guard it from exposure. It's actually flattering if people do want to use it.

I concur with Steve's final paragraph regarding people using my own work. I would bet if we were able to offer a link to buy any used tracks on itunes, the artist would make more money, in fact I believe something like this used to exist.

I'm sure some artists would be flattered to have their music used. I actually met a singer who has had their music used for Marryokes and he loved the idea and the videos. Shame no one has requested me to use his music for my Marryokes as I could have asked for permission. ;)

Like I said, Sabam, who represents the artists don't care what youtube allows you to use or if you are best buddies with the artist, if that artist is connected with a music rights organisation, Sabam will go after you if they receive a complaint and if they find unlicensed music on your site they will invoice you.

The same applies with Vimeo, they also don't care if a singer likes their music in a Marryoke video you produced, you either are guilty of a third party copyright infringments or you are not, they only won't invoice you but just terminate your account.

I agree that music licensing is not black and white but that is the music rights organisations fault as they make it much more complicated then it needs to be, it often is like opening a can of worms even if you buy licensed music it's always important to read the fine print, I always contact Sabam if I am in doubt.

I am more then happy to pay whatever is needed to secure that everyone that has contributed to the money I made with my film receives their part and as it stands today I do. I do follow Sabams guidlines and pay whatever is owed to use the music in my films on- or off line, they not only represent singers but also writers so vows or readings is also included.

With this said: "In the UK we can purchase a license to use music in our videos for DVD distribution, something not available in other countries and where the money doesn't go to the artist," as I had already paid for this licence and the online film was password protected, do you think I should challenge the decision? If not, I have no videos online and will have to start again with an other host such as animoto or wistia, anyone have any experience with those?

Isn't that license for off-line use only? I"m sure it doesn't cover the use of commercial music online so Vimeo won't take that into account.

I"m also still looking for alternatives to vimeo but mainly for playback issues.

With this said: "In the UK we can purchase a license to use music in our videos for DVD distribution, something not available in other countries and where the money doesn't go to the artist," as I had already paid for this licence and the online film was password protected, do you think I should challenge the decision? If not, I have no videos online and will have to start again with an other host such as animoto or wistia, anyone have any experience with those?

If you're referring to the LM licence (https://www.prsformusic.com/licences/releasing-music-products/limited-manufacture) - it does not cover Internet use.


3.7.1 This Licence covers the supply by you of the Product for private use but not any of the
following with respect to Repertoire Works:
(a) copying for the purposes of broadcast or public performance;
(b) acts of public performance;
(c) broadcast or other communication to the public; or
(d) use on the internet.

Well it's a shame that it doesn't extend to password protected online use.

If they made it for any Internet use - you'd have to pay a substantial amount more for it. As it is, it's a very good price for the use it's designed for.

Hey James

Australia has actually introduced a password protected licence BUT you have to realise that the licence for the Australia one is only valid in this country and Vimeo couldn't care less about UK or Australia copyright when it's based in the USA!! Under USA law you violate copyright regardless of what UK licences you hold. I had someone make a claim on YouTube on a 5 year old video cos they had licensed the rights to the wedding march ...nothing is sacred any more!!!

It is all a bit of a mess really. Chris' point illustrates that much perfectly. Just imagine trying to explain all this to a client, most of whom no longer want DVDS but do want their first dance song in the film. One thing is clear though, using a song purchased through iTunes in an online video is no longer viable, although countless companies are still finding a way to do it.

If the couple wants their first dance song in their film that goes online to share then just say no and explain why. That's what I do and nobody so far has complained about that and if they would they can go shop somewhere else.

This might not be a good example but just to give an idea how much money could be involved and I have told this story here before, a few years back I was asked to make a 15 second animation to start of a business event, it was just some text and images made in after effects and the organisation wanted 15 seconds from "start me up" from the rolling stones to be used in that trailer.

I ended up being quoted by EMI who I had to contact for permission to use that song, so 15 seconds once to be used as a projection with a trailer on a cinemascreen in front of 500 businessmen and that was it, no online or any other use and EMI said "it's 13000euro..."

Businessevents and weddings are different so prices asked would be different as well but just to give an idea how ridiculous high prices can be asked for commercial music.

Just because youtube allows you to use this music and the musician eventually gets paid for the use doesn't mean you are safe, as long as you stay under the radar the chances of getting caught are very small but if your video goes viral, like some years back with Joe Simon when he shot the wedding of a celebrity then big companies like EMI will start asking questions. Joe was lucky they made him an example to the rest of the community and he got a "cheaper" fine but still a lot of money, if they really wanted they could have ruined his business.

Most of my videos going viral is unlikely. 95% of those i upload these days are password protected and if they get 300 clicks I call it a high number. I do small Weddings not lavish celebrity versions. Videos that are more likely to get higher clicks are my Trailers and that I use royalty free or license music.

Even my Marryoke are mostly password protected. Often as families want to limit their exposure to close friends and family.

I have some older videos on Vimeo and YouTube I need to look into over winter unless matters are taken out of my hands. I'm also looking at other sites to post my videos. Or even just to deliver them. My days of chasing clicks are behind me. Nowadays I just want to get the videos to the couple as quickly and easily as possible. My full lengths contain copyright music which I want couple's to preview online. I've used Vimeo on password protect this year but next year I want something different as I'm not sure how long even password will protect my videos from copyright notice.

All my recent videos on vimeo were on password protect and they shut me down on old videos that I had already taken down some time ago so be aware that they are on the prowl Now! They probably have a vested interest in the likes of Fyrfly. Subscription is taking over the world!

If they cancelled you on videos you had already removed, then there's not much I can do. They're there and even if i delete them I still get canned, means my account is at risk whatever I do. It's not the end of the world mind. Clients will contact me if they want their videos Online again. If not they don't need to be. They all have their DVDs.

Well you learn something new everyday.

It seems copyright doesn't just extend to music, video and Photographic works, but also artwork (obviously) and less obviously, certain buildings.

So I'm filming a Wedding in London and I include The Shard prominently in shot. Copyrighted. Thankfully, we enjoy a flexible copyright clause 'Freedom of Panorama'. Which allows me to film such buildings for commercial use. However if placed online, it only allows me such use in places like the UK where the rules are quite relaxed. If my video is viewed in Countries like France where rules are stricter, I could apparently get sued according to one website I read.

Of course if I had a video online with copyrighted music of places like the Shard, I could be in real trouble. And I've done a few Marryokes in London.

This might not be a good example but just to give an idea how much money could be involved and I have told this story here before, a few years back I was asked to make a 15 second animation to start of a business event, it was just some text and images made in after effects and the organisation wanted 15 seconds from "start me up" from the rolling stones to be used in that trailer.

I ended up being quoted by EMI who I had to contact for permission to use that song, so 15 seconds once to be used as a projection with a trailer on a cinemascreen in front of 500 businessmen and that was it, no online or any other use and EMI said "it's 13000euro..."

Businessevents and weddings are different so prices asked would be different as well but just to give an idea how ridiculous high prices can be asked for commercial music.
"Start Me Up" by the Rolling Stones was used by Microsoft in a commercial during the launch of Windows 95. The possibly apocryphal story goes that Bill Gates got the idea from the “Start button” feature on the launch screen. Gates was said to have personally asked Mick Jagger how much it would cost to use the song. Jagger wasn't really interested in their music being used in such a way so quoted $10 million hoping to dissuade Gates. Retired Microsoft chief operating officer Bob Herbold is on record as saying that it was actually $3 million.

And during the reception of that same event I mentioned they could play that same song completely together with any other song for maybe 100euro as a fixed rate for background music.

What I do for my clients now is host them on my website - it's no big deal bandwidth wise as there are not huge numbers of people wanting to watch, and it just saves messing with Vimeo - I had one warning, and this was unexpected because it because of accidental background sound picked up. It's a real pain when you spend time making sure you have the right licences, but Vimeo have to be convinced.

Any licencing you have for a particular country doesn't apply if you host your videos on a US server, maybe there's a local alternative

So you are saying that if I live in Europe and host my video's on a US server I can use whatever commercial song I want without having to pay for a license? Or do I understand it wrong?

I believe my troubles started when I started using squarespace so could well be the case with the US servers flagging things up. Another question, what happens if we pay the limited liability licence to use copyright music on Dvd and don't put anything online but then the client puts their film online with the copyrighted music on it? Are we liable or are they?

So you are saying that if I live in Europe and host my video's on a US server I can use whatever commercial song I want without having to pay for a license? Or do I understand it wrong?

no, it's the other way around, regardless of the fact that I am in Australia and have an APRA/AMCOS licence I am hosting videos on a US site and have to comply with US law - they don't give a rats arse about our licencing system or that of any other country, and to be fair, nor should they. I have to find an Australian server to host videos.

What does that APRA/AMCOS licence allow you to do? Does it allow licensing of popular commercial music, like something from Ed Sheeran, at a price similar to something from the musicbed?

I believe my troubles started when I started using squarespace so could well be the case with the US servers flagging things up. Another question, what happens if we pay the limited liability licence to use copyright music on Dvd and don't put anything online but then the client puts their film online with the copyrighted music on it? Are we liable or are they?

That's a really interesting question James, my thought are that you have a licence to put the music on DVD which you have done. If the client uploads the clip to their vimeo, youtube, Facebook channel - they will be liable - not you. I actually include mention of the fact they they should not do this in correspondence to each client. My hope is that this absolves me from any action that might be taken, but it's a hope only, I have not obtained a legal opinion on the matter.

What does that APRA/AMCOS licence allow you to do? Does it allow licensing of popular commercial music, like something from Ed Sheeran, at a price similar to something from the musicbed?

I purchased songs from Songfreedom, some fairly popular like Maroon 5 & Lady Gaga. They were upwards of $60/song. I hosted on Vimeo no problem, as of yet I haven't had a takedown warning. However when I tried moving them to Youtube it was flagged and copyright/ads message was given? I thought since I purchased the songrights, ads shouldn't show. I reached out to Songfreedom and asked, they said the license only gives me the rights to use the song, but the artist can still request ads. So, essentially the same deal as if I purchased the song for $.99 cents online?

As of yet no vimeo warnings. Nervous about it. Hopefully those few hit songs are on a list of quasi-allowed songs, and its been skipped over. Methinks its more to do with millions of customers, and my account with a handful of weddings or so hosted just hasn't been dinged yet.

Not sure it answers you're APRA/AMCOS question per se, but just my related experience.

I purchased songs from Songfreedom, some fairly popular like Maroon 5 & Lady Gaga. They were upwards of $60/song. I hosted on Vimeo no problem, as of yet I haven't had a takedown warning. However, when I tried moving them to Youtube it was flagged and copyright/ads message was given?
How is YouTube supposed to know that you have a license? The content id flagging is automatic.
Did you try to dispute it and refer to your license in the disputed text?

I purchased songs from Songfreedom

If there is one organisation where I would not recommend buying music from then it is Songfreedom, I also found a known song in their library years ago, I believe it was 25 dollar for a lifetime use, couldn't believe it because it was a popular group, long story short, Songfreedom said "no worries, you can use whereever and whenever you want, our license covers everything" while Sabam, the Belgian Association of Authors said to me their license had no value and that I would be invoiced by Sabam for using that music which would be a lot more then 25 dollar.

When I confronted Songfreedom with this they gave me some idiotic reasoning that made no sense at all.

Did you try to dispute it and refer to your license in the disputed text?

I want to make a bet that youtube won't accept Songfreedoms license, they are crooks, if those songs are used on Vimeo you can be sure it will be a matter of time before they will find out and slap him with a DMCA claim.

I want to make a bet that youtube won't accept Songfreedoms license, they are crooks, if those songs are used on Vimeo you can be sure it will be a matter of time before they will find out and slap him with a DMCA claim.
It is not up to YouTube, YouTube has nothing to do with it when you dispute the claim the communication is with the rights holder, not YouTube.

You'd better have a backup for your claim that Songfreedom "are crooks", it sounds defamatory to me.

I... Songfreedom said "no worries, you can use whereever and whenever you want, our license covers everything" .
That is not what their written license conditions actually say.

When you license something you should read the conditions.

You'd better have a backup for your claim that Songfreedom "are crooks", it sounds defamatory to me.

You bet I have proof about them lying to me, I still have the entire email conversation, because you almost have to be a laywer to interpret the fine print on these licenses I contacted them directly, explained how I wanted to use that commercial song and asked if their license would cover me in that case. They said yes, I then contacted Sabam and they said no and if I would use that song I would be invoiced a second time by sabam but for a much higher amount.

When I showed Sabams answer to Songfreedom they gave me a answer that didn't make sense and which had nothing to do with my specific use so I'd rather sing my own songs then use anything from Songfreedom.

How about your post that email? Perhaps other people might understand what their explanation is about.

What does that APRA/AMCOS licence allow you to do? Does it allow licensing of popular commercial music, like something from Ed Sheeran, at a price similar to something from the musicbed?

How is YouTube supposed to know that you have a license? The content id flagging is automatic.
Did you try to dispute it and refer to your license in the disputed text?

Yes and it really didn't matter. Songfreedom themselves stated 'The artist is free to request ads if they so choose'. I guess, but wouldn't they do the same thing for a $.99 cent purchased song from Amazon?!

I mean, to me I tried to do the right thing. Its a layer of security and imho professionalism as I wasn't using a dumb Bruno Mars Uptown Funk & going hog wild with it. I also begin my trailers with a brief 'licensed by'. For $60, its worth it.

If my entire account gets shut down then things get bad as I have other semi needed videos on there. Maybe I should pull the weddings off & self host them. TBH I think I'm slowing down on weddings anyway & wouldn't mind if the website only keeps 3 or 4 up, at least for a while.

How about your post that email? Perhaps other people might understand what their explanation is about.

Just let it go guys. Noa, don't post the email. "You think they are crooks". Look, I agree with you, we all can. "You" think they are crooks. Doesn't mean Gary or Cary or me have too (personally I'm in the middle), so no need for the email. Plus, Sabam seems to be a Belgian rights company so thats an added layer of complexity vs an American using them.

Having said that, lets be real, they're not some basement run operation of kids selling a database of mp3's off their hard drive for $50 bucks off craigslist. Its a legit operation, I'm sure they have some legal counsel they work with and advises them. I'm sure they have some ties into the music rights industry and likely video hosting (Vimeo, youtube). So in that regard, they're legit. Fullproof? Prolly not, they could be a bit redundant or unnecesarry, sorta like Lifelock or undercleaning or whatever new car salesmen sell you. I mean, it's something, but maybe not 'worth it'.

I couldn't even read Gary's reply as he has been on my blocked list for more then a year (and he knows about that) but when you quote him I unfortunately can see :) Probably he replies to me knowing I can't see it so it looks I can't prove it because I don't react.

No, I"m not going into that anymore, all I care about is what Sabam says because they are the only ones that can ruin my business if I don't comply, Sabam told me that what Songfreedom was telling me was not correct as Songfreedom said their license would cover me completely and that it was the only license I ever have to pay, I did explain in detail to Songfreedom under what conditions I was using that song so it was not that they didn't know in what country they lived. Even after I confronted them with Sabams reply they told some nonsense about the German Association of Authors and youtube which had nothing to do with my situation.

Sabam told me that what Songfreedom was telling me was not correct as Songfreedom said their license would cover me completely and that it was the only license I ever have to pay

Except that's now how you originally described it.

As far as I can tell they are not legal in Europe, songfreedom says they have worldwide synch rights (to create the video) but not necessarily the streaming rights. They said that eventhough their content partners have the ability to grant certain rights, each territory does have the ability to be as difficult as they would like.

Seems like you're heavily mis-remembering what the original conversation was like. You also seem like you don't understand the concept that you can license in one respect, and not be licensed in another, like using the basic license from PremiumBeat or Smartsound or something similar for a TV show broadcast on a national network.