Hello,
I looked at the specs for these two cameras. My question is, if I am not going to use XAVC-I, then is it worth the extra cash for the Z280? I can't locate information about whether 4K XAVC-L on the Z280 is 8 bit 4.2.0 (like the Z190) or 10 Bit 4.2.2. This would make a big difference. Any other reason I should go with the more expensive Z280? The price difference is huge.
Thanks

The decision is even more simple than that. Are you going to shoot with S-LOG3 and make the commitment to grade your footage properly in Resolve? If not, then you probably don't need XAVC-I anyway and you can save yourself about $3K with the Z190 and get a 25x lens (instead of 17x) as a bonus. Yeah, there are other differences between the cameras to consider, but that is the big one, in my opinion.

Hello,
I looked at the specs for these two cameras. My question is, if I am not going to use XAVC-I, then is it worth the extra cash for the Z280? I can't locate information about whether 4K XAVC-L on the Z280 is 8 bit 4.2.0 (like the Z190) or 10 Bit 4.2.2. This would make a big difference. Any other reason I should go with the more expensive Z280? The price difference is huge.
Thanks


Looking at the early Z280 samples that are online, I would definetely wait to see how they compare. As for the Z280, its been in my radar for purchase too but I'm starting to feel queezy after seeing many of the samples out so far. A few of them out there have been shockingly bad.

I dunno but I think the jury is still out on the Z280.

The jury's not out for me. The Z280 is a rock solid camera that is going to get a lot of use from me when my S35 cameras and lenses are too much hassle.

FYI - Found out that the 4K XAVC-L on the Z280 is only 8 bit - just like the Z190.

I think it will be difficult to shoot XAVC-I on this camera, considering that you only get 22 minutes on a 128GB card.

Then again, maybe I should pick up this camera as a future-proof solution. I imagine that the price of memory will drop significantly in the future. Always pros and cons.

FYI, 4K XAVC-L is always 8-bit on any camera that has that format.

I think it will be difficult to shoot XAVC-I on this camera, considering that you only get 22 minutes on a 128GB card.

My camera says I can probably get 27 minutes of 60P on a card, not the 22 minute number that Sony says. The numbers they publish are always conservative. But do you even really need 60P? What are you doing with 60P? I don't need 60P and that means I can get 53 minutes of 30P on a 128GB card.

That's good to know - thanks Doug!

Hello,
I looked at the specs for these two cameras. My question is, if I am not going to use XAVC-I, then is it worth the extra cash for the Z280?

Getting back to your original question, yes, I think the Z280 is well worth the extra money if someone is a professional and will be using the camera to earn money. Especially if low-light shooting is important because the Z280 beats the Z190 by about 2.5 stops. In bright outdoors light, they are surprisingly similar, but the Z190 quickly get lefts in the dust when shooting in low light. I've shot quite a bit of side-by-side footage (for my own testing purposes) with both cameras mounted on the same tripod. I will post some split-screen comparisons one of these days if I have time.

please do so doug if you have time. would be greatly appreciated.

. . . the Z280 beats the Z190 by about 2.5 stops.

I have to modify what I wrote earlier. Further testing, using the default "standard" picture profile on both cameras this time, shows the difference to be almost 4 stops. I put the Z280 at about ISO 2000 and the Z190 at ISO 125. It surprises me to see such a huge difference between the cameras. For comparison, I rate the Z90 at about ISO 320.

Doug, can you clarify this a bit...is the Z280 locked into a "high sens" mode that every camera manufacturer seems to want to put into their cameras to inflate the light sensitivity figures of hyperpixel sensors? Is this in HD or 4K mode...the noise and sensitivity? How many stops does each camera lose switching from HD to 4K?

Also, putting noise aside, in the least high sense modes, the Z280 on 0db...what gain would the Z190 need to be to match scene brightness, assuming both locked to same shutter and aperture?

Paul

PS: Didn't the FS5 have some sort of noise or aliasing issue when it came out that Sony had to create a f/w fix for?

Paul,
The Z280 does have a high sensitivity mode for gain, but none of my measurements or comments are based on that mode. I don't think that mode is even necessary unless someone has already maxed out the "normal" gain.

The Z280 loses about one stop of sensitivity going from HD to 4K, with all other exposure settings being the same. This is the first camera where I've noticed that happening. The Z190 does not share the same issue. Sensitivity is the same (awful) no matter what the resolution is.

With the Z280 on 0dB gain, the “standard” scene file, shooting in HD, and both lenses zoomed out to the widest focal length . . . the Z190 would need about 21dB of gain to match the same exposure (with all other settings being equal). But the camera cannot even do 21dB gain unless you put it into "turbo" mode and then the gain would be 30dB. There are no gain values between 18dB and 30dB on the Z190. High sensitivity mode might help bridge the gap, but who wants to use that?

On the other hand, if you zoom both lenses in to the max telephoto focal length, then difference is even worse due to the difference in lenses. The Z190 would need about 24db of gain to compete with the Z280 at 0dB. That’s four stops.

The Z280 is really excellent in low light and very clean. It is actually too sensitive in bright light. I'm shooting most of the time outdoors at -3dB and still adding a glass 1/4 ND filter (2 stops) to the lens because the built-in ND filter maxes out at 1/128 (7 stops) -- and that still is not enough to let me keep the iris wide open, which is where I want it to be.

Thanks for the update Doug..."high sens" modes are only good for night ENG shooters, who would seldom if ever shoot at 0db save for close up lighted interviews. Jeremy with On Scene TV in Los Angeles has a Z190, and he told me that when he switches from normal to high sens, the camera seems to adds roughly 15-18db of extra "hidden" gain...almost 3 stops!

I think you may be right about the preamp being the cause of the noise...Sony loves to throw noise reduction at things, and I am sure they are trying their best to keep the Z280 relevant in a world becoming overpopulated by cheaper M43 and S35 cameras and mirrorless little toys. Maybe the BBC will run their tests on the Z280 and reveal the real s/n ratio with noise reduction turned off.

Paul

I measure the High Sensitivity mode to only add about 2-stops of sensitivity, and a hell of a lot of noise. You should tell your friend that he bought the wrong camera for run and gun nighttime news.

But I hope people don't let my comments about the Z190 taint the Z280. The Z280 looks great in low light and can see in the dark better than my eyes and with a very acceptable amount of noise when gain is added. I haven't tested it head to head against my FS7 or F55, but my sense is that the Z280 the best low light camcorder I've ever used. The only one that might even come close is the Z450.

Granted, my experience is mostly limited to camcorders from Sony so I'm sure someone is going to start throwing around the names of cameras that I've never heard of from other companies. So I'll say this . . . low light performance is not even in the top ten list of things I find important about a camera. If you look at the total package, there's no camera under $7K that can touch the Z280. If you don't care too much about shallow DoF, this camera does almost everything an FS7 can do plus a lot more.

Yeah, your friend bought the wrong camera for what he shoots. He should have gotten a Z280 instead. And if his reason for not buying a better camera was that he couldn't afford the price, he should get out of the business and go do roofing or something else because he's obviously not cut out to make money doing video or running a business. An extra $3K is nothing. Nothing!

Agreed Doug, but then again, look at what Sony does. Sony lists the Z190 at f11@2000...in high sensitivity mode at 0db (really 12db!). It seems that any new camera that comes out must at least meet a fictional f11@2000 (NTSC) spec. JCV does the "high sensitivity" mode, call it extended, but it's only 6db. Same with Panasonic, it's a solid 6db. HPX2000/3000 had a button called "line level", did the same thing.

Would you join me Doug, in calling for a ban on the "high sensitivity" ratings and specifications, and a return to "0db means no gain!". :-D

Paul

Sure, I'll join you in that, but I'll go one better . . .

The manufacturers should just publish honest ISO figures. That's all you need to know about a camera if the manufacturer reports the numbers honestly. Don't get me wrong, I am totally against displaying ISO numbers in the viewfinder because gain is much more informative. But in the camera's specifications they should tell us the true ISO of the camera instead of LUX, or f11@2000 or some crap like that. I don't even know what that means!! On the other hand, if you tell me _____ camera is rated at _____ ISO with the default paint menus, I know exactly what that means and can easily compare it with other cameras.

How the camera looks with additional gain added (whether it is regular gain or High Sensitivity gain) is a totally different matter and must be evaluated by actually looking at the picture quality and making judgement calls. You cannot compare one camera's gain against another simply by the numbers. One camera at 12dB gain might look way better than another camera at 12db gain even if the exposure is the same.

I don't understand ISO ratings at all!

f@ figures make a lot of sense to me, especially when comparing B4 cameras, simply because aperture is always roughly the same, and if you see an f@ number increase one stop, you know the camera will do a 0db what it's predecessor did at 6db...speaking from an exposure level, not noise level.

I still have no clue WTF 1.5 lux in low light mode is on my Z90...and despise Sony's use of rating the big Sony's with a lux at 42db or with 64 frame accumulation! 0.000002 lux at 48db + 64 frame accumulation...go to hell Sony :-P

Paul

Wow, you really take this stuff personally. :-)

I just evaluate what the camera can actually do and move on. It only takes a few minutes to figure out the true sensitivity of the camera and how much gain I find acceptable. Once I know the limitations, I can get down to work making money with it.

BTW, you really should understand ISO. It's the same as ASA and has been around for a hundred years. All still photographers, cinematographers, etc. use the numbers as an international standard for exposure sensitivity. Even if you don't use it, you should understand it.

The thing with "0db" versus what we often call "native ISO" rating (and dual-gain/ISO settings) is that these two values are completely set from the camera maker.

Every sensor has a pre-amp amount that is added after its voltage collection. The sensor needs to be amplified to reach what the company wants to be a "respectable" 0db. So,..."0db" already has tons of preamp in it that we have no access too. If Sony wants their "0db" to equal 100 ISO or 400 ISO, they simply preamp the sensor to get the "ISO" they want for "0db".

Now....here is the trick! The more preamp they use to make a brighter "0db",...the LESS overhead WE have to go over 0db for ourselves. In other words,...if our 0db looks ok but our 12db is noisy as hell, that means Sony "used up" some of the signal to noise ratio overhead with higher preamp to give us the 0db brightness they thought was good.

I hope that makes sense. This is why the A7S sensor has sooooo much gain overhead. Because the collection voltages are already so high, that Sony doesnt need high preamp values. That "0db" is already very bright on its own....so to speak. Therefore, when we start cranking 12, 18, 24db....it STILL looks phenominal. The sensor's signal to noise ratio is NOT being "used up" on high amounts of sensor collection pre amp.

Tiny image sensors cannot do this, therefore camera companies need to crank that preamp to make a reasonably bright "0db"

With small image sensors, a camera maker's last option is to add more and more and more and more noise reduction processing to recover some of that signal to compensate for a dim sensor, high gain output. Noise reduction is the last line of denfense. However, that truck itself also brings it own problems to the table.

I have no idea how good or bad the Z190 and Z280 performs yet. However, I cant wait to get some original files to look at first hand.

CT

But Doug...

...I bought the Z-190 and I'm enjoying it and don't think the low light is all that bad. But now you've said some horrible things that are making me regret not buying the Z-280... and I had the chance to do it but now my 30 day return policy is up from Adorama...

The Z190 is a nice camera, especially for the price. But it's not very good in low light. I'm sorry to break the news but it's not just my opinion it is a fact that is easy to see when it is side by side with the Z280. If you don't shoot in low light situations very often then you're good to go. When there is enough light it is hard to tell the camera's apart.

I have to say that Z190 low light is pretty bad. Comparing with my NX5R, both wide open and the same setting, NX5R is just so much brighter. I have to up the gain of Z190 to around 6-9db to match it. The only saving grace is the Z190 gain does not add much noise. Given that Z190 is on a higher class compared to NX5R, I am rather disappointed in this low light aspect. I do lots of events and often have to zoom up to 90-99% and lose a lot of light on the way. I'm shocked that I often have to shoot at 18db unless I do 25p instead of 50i in order to bring down the shutter speed to allow more light in. I love the constant aperture of Z280 but I need the 25x zoom of Z190.

Yeah, those Z190 sensors seem to have a pretty dim voltage output. I'm sure if there was a way to access the raw pre-processed data off them we could see how heavily the Z190 leans of massive amounts of noise reductuon.

The Z280 has a sweet constant aperture lens that is just as fast on the long as it is on the wide. So, zooming in with that one doesnt kill your low light. So you might want to look at the Z280 instead.

Im thinking about the Z280 for next year's budget but I'll hang on to another Z150 untill the spring and see what comes out at NAB 2019. I already spent allot this year. I bought a 2018 RAM work van and I'm about to drop $11k on a DJI Inspire 2 drone and with 6k raw/ProRes liscense...so Im out of spending money for a while!!!

The Z150 is still has beautiful image for the price. That 1inch-type sensor output is gorgeous if you can deal with the loss of some pro functions.

CT

Cliff, the Z280 does not have a constant aperture zoom lens. The lens has a mechanical iris ring, and like all cameras with a mechanical iris, the iris position sensor determine the physical location of the teeth of the ring when displaying the iris value in the viewfinder. It's a common misconception with lenses of this type. On my B4 and 1/2" cameras, when you zoom to full telephoto, it gets a stop darker, and you can rotate the iris from f1.4-f2.0 without any changes in exposure level...once you "catch up to the ramp", you start actually irising down.

Doug, I guess I am showing my age. Back when I started camera evaluating, cameras had three settings, 0, 9, and 18db. You got an fX@2000 figure for 0db, all cameras were 1/60 shutter locked (NTSC, and they gave you a signal to noise ratio. Other than that, the only other variable to consider is if you wanted to pay $10,000 extra for the model with FIT chips, or live with intense vertical smear! As an experienced user, you should agree that even with ISO ratings and all the specs int he world, you really cannot determine the cameras capability until you put it side by side with another cameras image!

Wow, you really take this stuff personally. :-)

I just evaluate what the camera can actually do and move on. It only takes a few minutes to figure out the true sensitivity of the camera and how much gain I find acceptable. Once I know the limitations, I can get down to work making money with it.

BTW, you really should understand ISO. It's the same as ASA and has been around for a hundred years. All still photographers, cinematographers, etc. use the numbers as an international standard for exposure sensitivity. Even if you don't use it, you should understand it.

You mean the Z190 doesn't have a constant aperture? If so, this is true.

The Z280 is F1.9 all through it's zoom range. From wide to it's longest end.

CT

Incorrect. The Z280 also ramps at max. aperture, even though the display in the viewfinder stays constant. According to my measurements it drops about 1-stop from f/1.9 to f/2.8.

But the Z190's ramping is much worse. The Z190 ramps at ALL f-stops, not just maximum aperture.

All settings being equal, the Z280 is four stops faster than the Z190.

Thanks for that clarification Paul and Doug, I thought it was a constant f1,9....Wow! dang it,...my bad!

CT.

The only big ENG lenses I know of that are constant are ones like the Fujinon HAs18x4.2 BERM for the JVC and Panasonic 1/3" cameras. The only reason they maintain f1.4 at full telephoto is that they are basically 2/3" B4 lenses modified for the smaller sensor, so the glass through the pipe is super big.

Paul