Hello, I am planning to shoot with 3 cams. (a GL2 and 2 Optura 60's) running a one mic/boomed to the GL2. It's a one location movie (small house and backyard), 80% indoor scenes(no carpet) and 20% in a outdoor garden patio. Most scenes have 4 characters in close proximity.

My questions are:

What is the best one mic (indoor/outdoor) for this situation in the $300-$700 and $1000-$1300 range?
Can one mic do it or do I need 2 mics- one for indoor and one for outdoor?

With one mic boomed to the GL2 what should I use? Which is the best? A mixer or a pre-amp?
What brand/model...Sound Design MixPre, Shure FP-24, Behringer, Mackie, Beachtek DXA-6 or 8?

Would appreciate some knowledge, thanks.

A Schoeps cmc641 ($1400), or an Audio Technica 4053a hypercardioid.

Do you want to feed all of the cameras with sound from the same mic?

If you plan on doing this for a while, a Sound Devices 302 is a very good place to start.

Ty Ford

Thanks Ty for the mic info.
Should I feed all the cams with one mic or just one cam, whats the best for post-production?

You mentioned the Sound Devices 302 mixer. Are you saying the mixers give you better sound than say a pre-amp (Beachtek DXA-8).

Thanks Ty for the mic info.
Should I feed all the cams with one mic or just one cam, whats the best for post-production?

You mentioned the Sound Devices 302 mixer. Are you saying the mixers give you better sound than say a pre-amp (Beachtek DXA-8).

If you're shooting the same scene with three cameras, you'l maybe load in everything from one camera that is being fed by your new boom mic and mixer. The you have to load in the other two cameras. What''s their audio going to sound like? Prolly not as good.

OK so you then have to sync those cameras up to you main camera audio track. If you had all three cameras aimed at the same thing, you could cut between them more easily if they all had the same good audio.

Even two is better than just one.

Yes Sound Devices arew better mixers and have better preamps and limiters. At some point you have to move away from bolting something like that to your camera. When the audio device is bolted to the camera, you really can't mix or you'll jar the camera.

I'm not certainyou can feed three cameras from a Sound Devices 302. I know I can with the 442.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Cool, mixers are the way to go.
Ty, you said a SD442 mixer can go into 3 cams. Since the other SD mixers 302 and the MixPre have 2 XLR outputs also, can they feed 3 cams too?

I suppose if you feed each camera with only one output. That makes me a little nervous. The MixPre XLR outputs, BTW are line only. The 302 XLR outputs can be adjusted from mic to line.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Cool, mixers are the way to go.
Ty, you said a SD442 mixer can go into 3 cams. Since the other SD mixers 302 and the MixPre have 2 XLR outputs also, can they feed 3 cams too?

Dialogue is usually recorded mono, certainly with 1 mic splitting it to stereo is rather pointless except as an extra "insurance track" in the camera. So to feed 3 cameras you need a device with at least 3 mono outputs. Two stereo pairs gives you 4 outputs total and splitting the signal evenly between them by panning dead center gives you the equivalent of 4 mono feeds. The SD302 and MixPre both have L/R main output channels on a pair of XLRs plus a "tape out" secondary L/R stero output pair on a 2 channel unbalanced connector, so either unit could do that. Your mic connects to any input channel and is centred. Send the tape out stereo to camera A channels 1 & 2 and set channel 2's level about 8db below that on channel 1 to create an insurance track. Send the left main out to camera B channel 1 and right main out to camera C channel 1, ignoring channel 2 on both.

I'd be concerned that the audio recorded on the Opturas might be noticably different in character from that on the GL2 due to the audio circuit differences in the two camera models. Be prepared to do some equalization etc in post to get them to intercut seamlessly. Still, as Ty pointed out, that's going to be far less headache than if they were recorded using a hodge-podge of your boom mic and their internal mics, all in their own individual acoustic environments at different distances from the talent. Of course, if you're shooting multicam - say the GL2 recording a MS 2-shot of the talent interacting with the Optura's getting the CUs of the individuals at the same time - using just the track from the GL2 or even an independent audio recorder for double system sound all the way, synching up all three pix in post and intercutting between the several camera's video over the one audio track may be best of all.

Thanks guys, your'e information is great.

Steve, I like the method you suggest - using 2 channels on cam A (GL2) with a 8dB differential on the channels. The way to get 2 channels on the GL2 is to use the Canon MA300 XLR connector, so I could cable L/R outputs from the mixer to the GL2, right?

My budget for cams B and C is $1,800, is there any cameras that would do the job of getting better audio and/or picture than the Optura 60's to use with the A-cam GL2?

Thanks guys, your'e information is great.

Steve, I like the method you suggest - using 2 channels on cam A (GL2) with a 8dB differential on the channels. The way to get 2 channels on the GL2 is to use the Canon MA300 XLR connector, so I could cable L/R outputs from the mixer to the GL2, right?

My budget for cams B and C is $1,800, is there any cameras that would do the job of getting better audio and/or picture than the Optura 60's to use with the A-cam GL2?

Someone else will have to comment on other cameras that might be better the OIpturas. I wasn't thinking they would necessarily be inferior, just that they might sound different from the GL2 due to the differences in circuitry and you'll need to compensate in post.

Are you purchasing your B & C cams? Why not rent or lease a couple more GL2s rather than tieing up capital investing in 2 secondary cams only to have them sitting idle when you're not doing a multicam shoot?

Steve, after the shoot, the Optura's would be given to the 2 actors/producers who paid for them. "I won't have no cameras idling in my production house."

Which method would be better for sound and post-poduction; a mixer to GL2 or mixer to GL2 + two Opturas 60's?

Steve, after the shoot, the Optura's would be given to the 2 actors/producers who paid for them. "I won't have no cameras idling in my production house."

Which method would be better for sound and post-poduction; a mixer to GL2 or mixer to GL2 + two Opturas 60's?

"Better" is a matter of opinion, I think. With just one mic and sending its audio simultaneously to all three cameras you have a lot of redundency that may not be needed. You *might* (though I don't know if it's a fact) have noticably different audio characterisics in the tracks between the two models of camera that you wouldn't have if all the audio you use is recorded in one place. If you're going to edit sound and picture independently, like using L-cuts and cutaways where you have the sound of, say, actor A's dialog audible while picture is showing actor B's reactions to the speech or a cutaway to the subject of the speech, you're still going to have to sync everything up anyway so I don't see how recording redundently on all three cameras actually gains you anything. I fact, you might be better off going double-system and recording to a separate high-quality audio recorder, slating every take wutrh the slate visible to all three cameras, and use the internal camera mics to record scratch tracks on the tape as an aid in synching the "real" audio in post. An added advantage of that approach is that you don't have to worry about pulling so many cables around the set.

I think I'd focus on getting the highest quality audio on either the GL2 A camera or record to a separate audio recorder. Let the B and C cameras record scratch tracks using their internal mics as refernces to aid sync'ing to the production audio and use a clapboard slate at both the head and tail of every shot.

Nice filmmaking breakdown.
I will go with the 'mixer to one camera' set-up, it has many positives for my film project.

To use 2 channels, one for insurance as you suggested on the GL2 camera A, can I use a MixPre with the two L/R outputs and XLR cable it to a Canon MA300 XLR connector? Or what?

Are the MA300 2 channel inputs and the MixPre L/R outputs both line?

...
Are the MA300 2 channel inputs and the MixPre L/R outputs both line?

The MA300 is a mic level input while the MixPre has line level outputs. You'll need to add some padding in the line between the two to match levels.

Do you mean like a piece of cotton?... just joking, would padding be a special cable or device? Or is their a mixer with the price range of a MixPre that has mic/line switchable outputs? Thank you Steve.

Do you mean like a piece of cotton?... just joking, would padding be a special cable or device? Or is their a mixer with the price range of a MixPre that has mic/line switchable outputs? Thank you Steve.

A "pad" is an attentuator inserted in the line to reduce the levels. A-T, Shure, and several others make 'em and a google search or a browse through the B&H website will give you some ideas.

Also make sure of the version of the MixPre you're using. An early version had an impedence balanced output with the entire signal on pin 2 only. A normal balanced pad won't attenuate the signal by the amount indicated on the pad. You also won't get the normal -6db drop if you only use pin 2 with an unbalanced adapter.
The newer versions of the MixPre with a regular balanced output also have a 4-pin power connecter versus the original barrel-type power connector. That's the easiest way to spot the difference.

How much pad do I need? 10dB, 20dB, 30dB, or ?

Jay, are you saying the newer MixPre's pins allow the pad to function correctly?

How much pad do I need? 10dB, 20dB, 30dB, or ?

Jay, are you saying the newer MixPre's pins allow the pad to function correctly?

The Canon has a built-in mic attentuator that will take care of part of it. I don't have all the numbers in front of me but I think its around -20db. Mic input sensitivities are gernally in the ballpark of -50db so the 20 or 30 db pad would be the one. Several manufacturers make switchable pads that you can vary as needed. You might also consider something like the Beachtek DXA-4, -6, or -8 at the camera end instead of the MA300 as they are adjustable between line and mic sensitivity. Take a look at www.beachtek.com for details.

Steve, thanks for answering the pad question.

The GL2 attentuator is -20dB.

I was considering using both channels in the GL2 to have another track for insurance. Using a BeachTek allows only one channel via the mini-plug to the GL2, right? and I still need the mixer. (for the boomed AT4053a)

Steve, thanks for answering the pad question.

The GL2 attentuator is -20dB.

I was considering using both channels in the GL2 to have another track for insurance. Using a BeachTek allows only one channel via the mini-plug to the GL2, right? and I still need the mixer. (for the boomed AT4053a)

Check their specs on the web site - The Beachtek has two XLR connectors and I'm pretty sure you have a choice of sending one of them to both channels in the camera or sending one to the left channel and the other to the right.

The beachteks have a 2 mic inputs and have one stereo mini-plug for the output, so how can I control the 2nd channel for the "insurance track" on the GL2 or any XLRless camera?

The beachteks have a 2 mic inputs and have one stereo mini-plug for the output, so how can I control the 2nd channel for the "insurance track" on the GL2 or any XLRless camera?

I don't have one but I understand the Beachteks have a mono/stereo switch that lets the left channel XLR feed both the left and right inputs in the camera. If you keep the MixPre at the boom operator end, use its internal oscillator to send a 0db tone down the line to the camera to the Beach. Switch the camera to manual level control, switch on its internal attentuator, and set the camera's gain control for the left channel to about the 2/3 point. Put the Beach in "dual-mono" mode so the left XLR feeds both channels in the camera. Without changing the camera's level setting, adjust the control on the Beach so the reference tone shows at minus 12db on the camera's meter. Now adjust the camera's manual level control for the right channel so the tone reads minus 20db on the right channel meter. Ridin gain to control the actual audio level during a take is controlled by the mixer/boom operator using the MixPre where the 0dB meter reference will represent recording levels of -12db & -20db at the camera.

You could also use 2 parallel XLR cables between the MixPre and the Beach/Camera end, one for each channel and set the Beach to stereo mode. The mic is panned to the centre at the MixPre so the same signal goes down both channels to the camera. Use the same technique for setting levels.

Your audio wisdom is appreciated.

I was reading Double Spotted Eagle's response in the "another audio question" thread--he stated you don't need a mixer for a one mic shoot. Could I still get good sound using just a beachtek with my boomed AT4053a?

I overlooked headphone monitoring.

I've read that the GL2's headphone monitoring is weak. If a mixer is not needed, would a good choice be the Sound Devices MM-1 instead of the beachteks?

The SD MM-1 seems to have more control for a one mic set up.

I overlooked headphone monitoring.

I've read that the GL2's headphone monitoring is weak. If a mixer is not needed, would a good choice be the Sound Devices MM-1 instead of the beachteks?

The SD MM-1 seems to have more control for a one mic set up.

Not really - while the MM1 is an excellent unit and highly recommended it would replace the MixPre, not the Beachtek. While Beach has a couple of preamp equipped units, the version I've been kind of assuming you'd be using would be the basic DX4 which is a passive device that a: pads the incoming line level back down to a mic level, and b:interfaces the balanced feed line from the boom end, whether it's coming from a preamp or a mixer, to an unbalanced stereo miniplug that the camera itself wants plugged into it. It also blocks the 5v bias voltage the camera puts on the input that is needed with a consumer grade electret condener microphone but can degrade the performance of pro gear.

Both the MixPre and the MM1 provide headphone monitoring to the boom operator.

So a boomed mic (AT4053a) connecting to the input of the SD MM-1, the SD MM-1's output connects to a BeachTek DXA-4P, it's mini plug to the GL2.
This configuration seems like it will do the job well.

Steve, using the GL2's mini-plug allows you only to use the camera's left channel only so how can I use the method you suggested in your reply #22 (Using both channels on the GL2)?
Or am I just confused?

So a boomed mic (AT4053a) connecting to the input of the SD MM-1, the SD MM-1's output connects to a BeachTek DXA-4P, it's mini plug to the GL2.
This configuration seems like it will do the job well.

Steve, using the GL2's mini-plug allows you only to use the camera's left channel only so how can I use the method you suggested in your reply #22 (Using both channels on the GL2)?
Or am I just confused?

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that the GL2 mic input was stereo to accomodate stereo (2-channel) mics and so would acccept a stereo signal on a TRS miniplug connector at the mic connector. You might be thinking it's mono because the simple XLR to miniplug cable adapters are wired for mono to a TS miniplug but the Beach output is TRS and connects to both channels.

Thank you much for clearing that up about the beachtek.

Is there a way I can do the "extra track method" (insurance) with the SD MM-1 connected to the beachtek DXA-4 instead of the MixPre? Thanks!

Thank you much for clearing that up about the beachtek.

Is there a way I can do the "extra track method" (insurance) with the SD MM-1 connected to the beachtek DXA-4 instead of the MixPre? Thanks!

Sure - the camera has two level controls, one for each channel. Your mic feeds the MM1. The output of the MM1 is connected to the left xlr connector on the Beach and the right channel is turned all the way down to prevent noise from creeping in. The Beach stereo/mono switch is set to mono. This puts the input signal on the output's left and right channels equally so whatever is going to the Beachtek's xlr connector will be recorded on both channels in the camera. The camera is set to manual recording level control and you adjust the camera's level controls so they're about -12db on the left channel and -18db on the right. The only real drawbacks of using the MM1 instead of the MixPre is the lack of a built-in standard reference tone to help set the gain staging along the chain and the lack of a level meter. Personally I'd go with the MixPre in order to have those two features.

Those two features are important, I'll take your audio sage advice and go with the MixPre instead of the MM-1.

Steve, you've broke-down my questions, gave great tips and saved me a lot of headaches. I'm going to put your name in my movie credits under Audio Consultant, unless you prefer a different title.

Since I'm using a boomed AT4053a for both indoor and outdoor settings, what should I use for the AT mic outdoors to get good sound? Windshield/blimp, mic techniques, what else?

Once again in detail: the outdoor scenes will be shot in a small backyard patio that has a low wooden roof, a concrete floor and lots of plants & shrubs in and surrounding it. The four actors will be sitting very close to each other in a circle.

Actually on the BeachTek when set to MONO mode you should keep the unused channel set to Maximum, otherwise it does reduce the signal from the single mic. Since it's a passive device, it won't be providing any gain for any interference that might creep in, but the unused control does have an attenuating effect on the mic signal.
It doesn't affect it as much per click stop as the control for the input channel you're plugged into, but it does affect it some. At times I'll use this as a trim control, using a click stop or two on the off side as a finer control than a single click on the used side. It also doesn't seem to change the level in the off-side of the two-channel mono output, it loads both channels down a little.
The Line/Mic switch on the off side doesn't seem to provide any change in attenuation though because I believe it's upstream of where the MONO mixing occurs.

Wow, I bet that's not in the instruction manual.

Wow, I bet that's not in the instruction manual.

Actually it is - they recommend the unused channel is set fully clockwise to prevent loading. The convention with almost anything, including the Beachtek, is that you turn a volume control clockwise to make it louder. Because this is an attenuator that cuts the signal strength, turning the control UP, clockwise, makes the signal louder by turning DOWN the amount of reduction, the control actually having the least effect on the system when it's all the way up. It's actually the opposite of the circuit properties of most level controls where turning them up increases their influence in the circuit. Since it's the presence of attentuation in the unused channel that can load down the active channel, Jay is correct. ROFL When did I sleep last!

And I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this, but you can save some time in post if you manually white balance your cameras to a sheet of white paper. (I believe that the Optura has this capacity).
Daniel

What is the mic distance for optimum sound using the AT4053a on a boom indoors? Is outdoors any different?

Thanks.

What is the mic distance for optimum sound using the AT4053a on a boom indoors? Is outdoors any different?

Thanks.

For *optimum* sound, as close as possible without intruding into the shot.

The difference is you don't want to use a shotgun inside at all unless you're on a set.

To understand why, go to the video folder in my on line archive and download the instructional mp4. See and hear for yourself.


Regards,

Ty Ford

Thanks guys.

I would like to shoot some scenes indoors without the boom and camera operator present, only the 4 actors by themselves.

Is it possible to mic with the boom set in a position (on a stand/whatever) getting all 4 actors sitting close to each other on a couch?
If possible, how close should the actors be?

If the boom op knows their lines and who's talking next, yes. Otherwise life gets a lot more difficult.

Ty Ford

Hey Ty am a bit confused by your reply. My question was about shooting a couple of scenes with no boom operator, just the AT4053a. Can I place the mic so that I could get all 4 actors dialogue? They would be sitting in a semi-circle with 1 foot spacing between. Thanks Ty.

Hey Lorenzo,

Four people in a semi cricle each a foot apart. Each body is about 1.5 feet wide.

If you put the mic in the middle, the two on the end will be off mic by at least three feet.

The difference will be audible even if they are in a huddle.

Then there's what happens when (not if) one person's voice is a LOT LOUDER than the rest.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Hey Ty am a bit confused by your reply. My question was about shooting a couple of scenes with no boom operator, just the AT4053a. Can I place the mic so that I could get all 4 actors dialogue? They would be sitting in a semi-circle with 1 foot spacing between. Thanks Ty.

I have to ask - why would a director (that's you!) want to shoot a scene where he doesn't know what the actors are doing? If you have a nude scene or something sensitive like that you might have a closed set and just have essential crew present but that certainly would include the camera operator, director, and sound person (even if those hats are worn by less than three people) because those three skills behind the camera are absolutely essential (IMHO).

"To be or not to be, that is the qurrz3lorp" - Monkey #19,483

Exactly!

Ty Ford

I have to ask - why would a director (that's you!) want to shoot a scene where he doesn't know what the actors are doing? If you have a nude scene or something sensitive like that you might have a closed set and just have essential crew present but that certainly would include the camera operator, director, and sound person (even if those hats are worn by less than three people) because those three skills behind the camera are absolutely essential (IMHO).

Steve, I am one of the four actors, so the captain is on the bridge.

I shot my first feature on 16mm, I had a sound crew and sound equipment borrowed from Kevin Patterson (Soundman on Schwarzeneggers ERASER).

This time it's shooting on DV. I plan to supervise location sound. "Now Hear This" forum is part of my sound education. I'm going to put Ty's Audio Bootcamp guide in my library. I appreciate you guys helping me navigate through the audio requirements for this flick. The more info you guys know, the more I know.

The movie is scriptless, only a detailed outline with certain objectives for every scene. For some scenes I want to shoot with an extra Optura (four cams) without the crew (cam op/boom op), because of the delicate/sensitive subject matter.

Most of the scenes involve the 4 actors together, randomly speaking and telling thier stories. Would a AT4051a cardioid pick up the 2 outside actors better than the AT4053a? Would it help if the 2 loudest actors were on the outside of the semi-circle? Is there a better way to place the actors?

Frankly (who is this "Frank" anyway?) for that one I'd use lavs or mics hidden on the set instead of on a boom. At the very least this calls for multiple mics with a whole set of new problems such as phasing etc that go along with that. The problem is that you have conflicting criteria...

With a directional mic it should be pointed directly at the sound source. Hypercardioids are a little less stringent in that regard than shotguns but it still is true for them. No matter where you put the mic, with only one mic at best only one of the four speakers will be in the hotspot at any one time. Part of a boomer's job would be to keep moving the mic to aim it at the person speaking.

As Ty mentioned, people move when they talk so you need to follow that as well as the shifts in conversation from person to person.

Going with a less directional mic like a cardioid or omni can help the aiming issue but you still have the fact that no matter where you put it, the various talent will be a diffferent distances from the mic, leading to different levels and tonal qualities.

Sound really needs to be recorded up-close and personal and putting lavs, hidding them if needed, on each actor would be the best solution. Remember how much the tonal quality and level of Ty's voice changed with the mics Another choice to consider would be a stereo pair of cardioids aimed left and right or a brace of hypercardioids for each actor mounted on low stands out-of-shot below the image frame. That far from the talent it's still going to be iffy getting a good recording but it still would be better than hanging one fixed position mic over them and hoping.

You've got me really curious what would be acceptable for an audience to hear and but not for the crew doing the filming.

That's a very unstable recipe for good sound.

Yes, putting the louder actors further away may help, but.................

Good boom work means getting the boom just out of frame, right over (or sometimes under) the actor's head, especially on tight shots. You don't want to hear a lot of room ring if the actor's face is taking up the entire frame. The audio and the picture don't match.

You going to be too far away from someone. You have the time. Try it and see.

The cameras will be locked down and unattended? So you can't get any closeups. That's a problem. Sounds like you really need them to support the delicacy and intimacy of the topic. Good audio requires the same attention, or it will suffer.

They shoot nude scenes with a crew. If you want good sounding footage, I think you need to get over whatever it is that's so sensitive and do it right. You intend to show this to someone, right? Well there goes your secrecy factor.

Anyway, how about this. Put a hardwired lav on each person and feed it to a different camera, then sort it all out in post. Get room tone and ambi from each setup because you'll be checkerboarding four audio tracks and they will all sound a bit different.

Regards,

Ty

Yes Ty, this recipe for sound is unstable, and is getting complex.

Looks like having one mic boomed might not do the job well.
Steve, I checked out Ty's mic tutorial. Hearing is believing.
Can you take out some of the room ring with some sound blankets on the ceiling, floors, and the walls in back of the cameras?
Will a cardioid mic(s) produce more room ring than a hypercadioid mic(s)?

As to the "crewless" scenes:
2 cams on a two-shot and 2 cams on a close-up on the two actors. So each actor is in a two-shot and two actors also have a close-up.
Ty, there is no secrecy factor, only a method of working with actors and their performance without a cam crew, with the soundman monitoring in the next room. It's been done before.

Steve, you said you were curious on what would be acceptable for an audience to hear, but not the crew filming.
Me too. I went to go see the low budget DV film ELLIE PARKER starring Naomi Watts and Chevy Chase. Shot with a Sony DCR-PC100 single-chip consumer camera using the camera's mic. The camera was between about 2 and 10 feet away from the actors.
This film got a theatrical release with subpar sound, i.e. lots of room ring, hiss, rumble, and dialogue not clear at times. A theatrical release with no professional sound equipment? I'm sure I could get better sound than that using the equipment mentioned in this thread.

MULTIPLE MICS + MULTIPLE CAMERAS = MULTIPLE HEADACHES?

4 wireless mics, that sounds great. How do I connect that to a MixPre and the BeachTek attached to the GL2? Monitor all four actors dialogue?

Ty, you suggested 4 lavs hardwired to all 4 cams. I'm only using the fourth cam with the "crewless" scenes. What about getting sound for all the other scenes, wireless mics? Man that's a lot of mics.

Steve you also mentioned a stereo pair of cardioids aimed left and right. How do stereo mics work with a 2 channel mixer (MixPre), etc.?

Gentlemen are wireless lavs the way to go for this entire shoot?



P.S.
Ty, your Audio Bootcamp Field Guide is rad. The small size is perfect.

...
Will a cardioid mic(s) produce more room ring than a hypercadioid mic(s)?


Yes, because the hypercardioid is less sensitive to off-axis sounds more than the cardioid.

I went to go see the low budget DV film ELLIE PARKER starring Naomi Watts and Chevy Chase. Shot with a Sony DCR-PC100 single-chip consumer camera using the camera's mic. The camera was between about 2 and 10 feet away from the actors. This film got a theatrical release with subpar sound, i.e. lots of room ring, hiss, rumble, and dialogue not clear at times.

I haven't seen that film but it's possible that was done that way intentionally for artisitic reasons. It's fine to break the rules to serve a creative purpose as long as you're doing it intentionally.

...
Steve you also mentioned a stereo pair of cardioids aimed left and right. How do stereo mics work with a 2 channel mixer (MixPre), etc.?

"Stereo pair" does not mean a stereo mic here, it means two independent regular mono mics that are well matched to each other and are mounted in an arrangement suitable for stereo recording. For instance, the Rode NT-1A and NT-5 mics are available either singly or as matched pairs for stereo recording as are many others. The mixer's mic inputs are mono and each member of the pair is connected to one of them. Stereo mixers can route the signal on any mono input to either or both output channels and normally have a "pan" control in each input that determines how loud that channel will be in each output. The fader controls how loud it is and the pan controls how much of that goes to each output. For example the mic connected to Input 1 can be panned "hard left" meaning it's full strength in the left output channel and inaudible in the right, "hard right" which just reverses that, "centered" which sends it equally to both the left and right channels, or you can set it to any intermediate position that you wish. Using multiple mics to mic each instrument in a band individually instead of just two mics in a stereo pair and want the trombone to seem to be halfway to the left hand side of the group? Set the pan control on its mic input to about the 10 o'clock position. Want it to sound like he's walking over to the right hand side of the stage to stand next to the piano player while he's playing? Gradually turn the pan control over to perhaps the 3 o'clock position. It'll sound like he's moving even though he's standing still.

The MixPre, as its role is focussed more on the preamp function and less on the mixer function, doesn't have a full, continuously variable pan control on each mic input like other mixers might. Instead, each input has a L/C/R pan switch to direct it to either the left or right output or to both equally. For recording in DV that's probably sufficient as you'll most likely dedicate a track to each talent and adjust their levels and stereo position as part of the post-production mixdown. On the set your focus should be on getting the clearest and cleanest audio possible. Adjust it to fit your story requirements at your leisure during post. You can always add reverb and "room ring" if the tone of the scene calls for it, for example, but it's difficult to take it out if your master was recorded with it and you later change your mind.

Can you take out some of the room ring with some sound blankets on the ceiling, floors, and the walls in back of the cameras?


Absolutely. Anything to diffuse or absorb the bounce.

Will a cardioid mic(s) produce more room ring than a hypercadioid mic(s)?


Absolutely.


As to the "crewless" scenes:
2 cams on a two-shot and 2 cams on a close-up on the two actors. So each actor is in a two-shot and two actors also have a close-up.


Um, good luck with keeping them in frame with the closeups if no one is manning (womanning?) the cameras.


Steve, you said you were curious on what would be acceptable for an audience to hear, but not the crew filming.
Me too. I went to go see the low budget DV film ELLIE PARKER starring Naomi Watts and Chevy Chase. Shot with a Sony DCR-PC100 single-chip consumer camera using the camera's mic. The camera was between about 2 and 10 feet away from the actors.
This film got a theatrical release with subpar sound, i.e. lots of room ring, hiss, rumble, and dialogue not clear at times. A theatrical release with no professional sound equipment? I'm sure I could get better sound than that using the equipment mentioned in this thread.


The star factor supercedes the technical problems. Are Chevy and Ellie doing your scenes?



MULTIPLE MICS + MULTIPLE CAMERAS = MULTIPLE HEADACHES?

4 wireless mics, that sounds great. How do I connect that to a MixPre and the BeachTek attached to the GL2? Monitor all four actors dialogue?

Ty, you suggested 4 lavs hardwired to all 4 cams. I'm only using the fourth cam with the "crewless" scenes. What about getting sound for all the other scenes, wireless mics? Man that's a lot of mics.


That is NOT what I suggested. Please go back and look at it. What I said was four mics, one to each camera. That's four mics, one on each actor.



Gentlemen are wireless lavs the way to go for this entire shoot?



If the actors aren't moving much, use hardwired. Way easier, cheaper, and less susceptible to interference.



P.S.
Ty, your Audio Bootcamp Field Guide is rad. The small size is perfect.

Thanks! I designed it (size and durable covers) to fit in any run bag. I wrote it after trying to help folks just like you ferret out their audio problems. I kept saying a lot of the same things over and over again. I did a seminar about two years ago in DC. Afterwards, one of my students said, "Do you have that written down anywhere?"

I said, "No, it's all just sort of sloshing around in my head."

She said, "Hmm, a book or something would be useful."

I said, "Hmm, I know a writer -- me."

Ten months later the first edition came out. I'm now in my third printing (adding to the book as technology changes) and have sold to folks in Australia, Denmark, UK, Switzerland, Fiji, Hong Kong, New Zealand and Italy as well as the US.

Borrowing a friend's XL2, I shot the "dining room scene" because I thought it would drive home my points about mic choices. I could write a thousand words about audio, but they wouldn't have the impact of actually being able to hear the difference among the four mics.

Recently someone who saw that video clip asked how long it was. I said, "About 12 minutes."

They said, "Wow! Didn't seem like it. You used ONE CAMERA ANGLE for 12 minutes and I never got bored."

A tribute to the importance of the content..:)

Regards,

Ty Ford

My movie project is on again for the fall.

Same 3 camera's as before: A GL2 with 2 Opturas. w/sound going to the GL2.

Steve House, I read a thread that you said you can use 2 Rode NT-3's in a V pattern to cover a somewhat V shaped area.

Since my shoot is a documentary/drama with no script. The boom man usually will not know who's going to talk. So I need to cover all actors.

My main scene set-up is in the living room where the four actors will be sitting on a L shaped sofa. It seems like 2 mics in a V pattern will work there. Each mike will be on two actors about 3 feet away.
Can this work?
Will there be any problems in sound quality?