I don't think Steve or anyone can answer that question without question.

What if the room sucks? What if one actor a way louder than the others or way quieter than the others?

When you cut corners, you get what you get.

Regards,

Ty Ford

...
Steve House, I read a thread that you said you can use 2 Rode NT-3's in a V pattern to cover a somewhat V shaped area.

Since my shoot is a documentary/drama with no script. The boom man usually will not know who's going to talk. So I need to cover all actors.

My main scene set-up is in the living room where the four actors will be sitting on a L shaped sofa. It seems like 2 mics in a V pattern will work there. Each mike will be on two actors about 3 feet away.
Can this work?
Will there be any problems in sound quality?

Exactly as Ty said ...

The NT3 is a hypercardioid pattern - two of them can be setup in what is called a X-Y coincident array to provide stereo coverage of a set but for a number of reasons this is usually a better option for music but is much less effective for dialog. It also presumes a decent acoustic environment. With no script and multiple performers booming is going to hard. You might want to rely on booming multiple mics, one for each performer, multiple mics on fixed booms over the set, plant mics hidden on the set, or lavs on the talent. No matter what, that kind of improvisation on the set is going to be a challenge both for sound and for visual coverage.

Since they're on a sofa, a boundary layer mic on the coffee table in front of them or a two fixed booms directly over them, one for each group of two, an NT3 on each boom just out of shot might work

Ty, you are a hardliner when it comes to sound, I appreciate it.
A $7000 sound package would be great, but unfortunately I have to rip some corners due to budget.
As for a sucky room, i am going to sound blanket the S@#! out of the living room and any other locations.

Steve, thanks once again for the breakdown.
What the heck is a boundry layer mic? (cool name)
One boundry layer mic would cover all 4 actors?
Or,
The NT3's overhead, does it matter if they're close to each other?
Where can I buy a double mic overhead boom stand?

I know sounds very important, otherwise I wouldn't have asked you guys for your sound sage advice. I would settle for the camera mic which would doom the flick.

You got that right Steve this shoot is unique and challenging for both visual and sound coverage (I have the visual expertise, I'm working it out) you guys keep me on my toes with sound, THANKS.
~Lorenzo

Hey Lorenzo,

If being a hardliner means knowing something about what works from having a lot of experience in location audio and learning something new everytime I go out, that's me. Although you don't seem to offer the adjective as a compliment, I'll take it as such if I can apply my meaning to it.

I thought we were talking about how to mic your scene properly, not how to spend seven grand. You might also consider renting the gear you need for this particular scene. Four lavs and a Shure automixer wouldn't come to much more than two grand, even if you bought them. You could probably rent a Shure automixer for $50 a day, the lavs for $25-$35 each.

I have a list of rental facilities in the back of my lilttle book. They'll overnight the stuff to you. So there are two solutions that don't cost anywhere near seven grand.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Steve, thanks once again for the breakdown.
What the heck is a boundry layer mic? (cool name)
One boundry layer mic would cover all 4 actors?
Or,
The NT3's overhead, does it matter if they're close to each other?
Where can I buy a double mic overhead boom stand?

I

The problem with multiple overhead mics is that their coverage would overlap and the fact that the sound from a particular source will probably be picked up be both mics but with a slight time difference due to the differing mic/source distances. This in turn leads to phase differences in the signals and all sorts of weirdness can result (called "comb filtering") when you mix them. You can reduce the chance of this by insuring the two mics are at least 3 times farther apart from each other than the distance from each mic to it's closest sound source but that's not a guaranteed fix. Most of the time, placing multiple mics also requires a dedicated mixer operator who's nimble fingered enough to gain up and mute mics as the dialog flows.

A bounday layer mic resembles a flat plate or puck and is designed to rest on or be fastened to a flat surface such as a wall or table top. It uses the behavior of sound waves and their propagation along a flat plane to channel sounds to its diaphram and achieve its directional character. They're often used in live theatre with several spaced out along the front of a stage as well as conference rooms, etc

Here's a discussion about one from AKG
http://www.akg-acoustics.com/akg_structuretree/channelarticle/powerslave,id,160,mynodeid,5,nodeid,5,_language,EN.html

You can boom two mics using a couple of extra tall conventional mic stands with arms, one on each side of the set, or you can use two conventional handheld booms and clamp them to a couple of tall light stands with "C" clamps.

If you've made your main equipment choices it's time to experiment a little. At least three factors scream for this. One is that even a discussion of general principles as good as this one can't cover the variations you encounter in the real world. Second is that you don't want to be fumbling when actors are trying to act. And third is that a first hand appreciation of some of the trade-offs can be as important as good equipment and good technique. For example, if pulling the mic back a few feet for better coverage of four people sacrificed 20% of the aural intimacy of closer spacing, would the net effect be to hurt the scene or help it?

If you've made your main equipment choices it's time to experiment a little. At least three factors scream for this. One is that even a discussion of the theoretical as good as this one can't cover the variations you encounter in the real world. Second is that you don't want to be fumbling when actors are trying to act. And third is that a first hand appreciation of some of the trade-offs can be as important as good equipment and good technique. For example, if pulling the mic back a few feet for better coverage of four people sacrificed 20% of the aural intimacy of closer spacing, would that hurt the net effect of the scene or help it?

AMEN! to that Fred, dead on target!

Ty, what I meant was a compliment, hardliner = one who holds to a firm policy - such as: good equipment+good technique=good results, don't cut corners, etc. No sarcasms from me, just respect. I hold to those values. What's frustrating for me is for this shoot I have to sacrifice all around.
Unfortunately my budget for this shoot has dipped down to $1500.00.

Thanks for the rental tips, however renting added up to almost twice my sound budget.

Steve, thank you for the answers to my questions. Multiple mics for my situation probably won't do/to complex for my sound man. The boundry mic will pick up sounds from the table (drinks, feet kicking it, etc.).

Fred, great tips. I haven't made my mic choice(s) yet, that's what I'm trying to figure out with Steve and Ty's help. It's narrowing down probably to one boomed (stand or not) hypercardioid or cardioid mic. I'd love to experiment once I make that choice.

Lorenzo,

Sorry for the misinterpretation. Words on a screen can so easily be misinterpreted. :) :(.

Strap the mics to two light stands and aim them down from above at a distance. Put as many sound blankets, quilts etc andd choose as dead a room as possible.

Ty

Steve,
I might be switching to 3 Panasonic DVX100's. I will go with one mic into an SDMM-1 into the one camera.
If I'm feeding the cam with one xlr cable, how can I get an "insurance track" like the GL2 with its stereo input?
Is there a such thing as a cable spitter (from 1 to 2 lines) to feed the DVX's XLR inputs? Thanks!
~Lorenzo

Steve,
I might be switching to 3 Panasonic DVX100's. I will go with one mic into an SDMM-1 into the one camera.
If I'm feeding the cam with one xlr cable, how can I get an "insurance track" like the GL2 with its stereo input?
Is there a such thing as a cable spitter (from 1 to 2 lines) to feed the DVX's XLR inputs? Thanks!
~Lorenzo

Sure - take a look at this page from Full Compass for some examples. A transformer splitter is far better than a simple Y cable.

http://www.fullcompass.com/category/Splitters-Combiners.html

The equipment keeps evolving for the better with 2 weeks to go for the shoot.
Now it's upgraded from a Sound Devices MM-1 to a MixPre and the Rode NT-3 to a Audio Technica 4053a, Yeeess. The camera's are just two, a JVC GYHD100U and the Panasonic DVX100A shooting at hopefully 24p SD.

My question is now that it's 2 cams, should I run a line to both cams from the MixPre to have both cams synch'ed? Or would it be better to have both lines going to one cam for the insurance track?

Fun,

If you can run the mixer in mono, and don't need splits (one mic on one channel, another mic on another) you could feed each camera with one of the MixPre's XLR outputs. some cameras will let you apply one audio input to both camera tracks. I think thee DVX 100 does.

If you need splits. (and you may if you have more than
one person speaking or are using boom and lav on one person) then you need split audio and using only one mixer output isn't enough.

If you do need splits, then consider the Sound Devices 442. It has TWO SEPARATE BALANCED,Mic/Line STEREO outputs, plus a third stereo output on mini XLR.

You can't send different splits to different outputs, you only get the same stereo mix to all three, but (with the 442) you can also take direct line level outputs from each of the four inputs to feed four other line level inputs. You could use them to feed two of the the other camera's line inputs.

Very Handy. I seldom use all of the 442 capabilities at once. It's heavier than a Sound Devices 302 or MixPre, but it's the most versatile and high quality bag mixer I know of. It does kick butt.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Thanks Ty,
I am only using the one mic going into the mixer, with one output going to each cam. So I might need the splitter. I'm going to check on your tip of the DVX splitting the signal. Back to work.

Checking in with the "One mic on a three cam shoot" topic.

We shot rehearsals last winter using the AT4053a on a boom with the SD Mixpre into 2 HD cams.

We used a few sound blankets in most rooms. We implemented the tips on this blog from Steve and Ty. You guys help much with my sound training. I trained our soundman.

The results was better than I expected. In fact it was good. We edited a few scenes...very nice. The production is postponed until summer 2008. A script is being written. I am working on other films having fun.

Thanks, and see you later...

Thanks for checking in Lorenzo. It's always nice to know how something turned out.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Your welcome Ty.

Do you mean like a piece of cotton?... just joking, would padding be a special cable or device? Or is their a mixer with the price range of a MixPre that has mic/line switchable outputs? Thank you Steve.

You can order cables from Sound devices with built in resistors that knock the line level of the MixPre to mic level.

Regards,

Ty

The JVC HD cameras have both line and mic level switches.
Would the mic level produce better sound.

We used the line level on the cams and the sound was good.