I have been drafted to video a live country band performance. There is no way they will give me a feed from their mixer soooooo. I will be in the grass 20'-30' from their stage with room to my right and left. I have several Shure SM58s and I might be able to rent a pair of Shure SM57s. I also have a pair (genuine) of Oktava MK-012s and of course a selection of lavs and shotguns.
I have used the Octava mics for recitals, etc but always placed close to the source.

My thinking is to center a pair of SM58s and angle them about 40 degrees. Your thoughts? Has anyone used the Oktava mics in this application?

BTW, each of ten different bands is rehearsing in a different location so I am winging it!

Thanks in advance!

sm58 is for close up primarily for vocals or for inexpensive on stage coverage of instruments but not 20-30’ away. Better to put them near the lip of the stage or the speakers otherwise you’re likely to pickup audiences noise.

Why won’t they give you a board feed?

Without cooperation from band, house sound, or security/venue any guarantees of good sound are gone. It becomes more of a roll of the dice. It's hard to predict how the mix of ambient and band will sound. Which we all hate, because not being able to control quality of sound or visual is anti-pro.

I'd try the pair of Oktavas in an X/Y, A/B, or ORTF configuration dead-center. I've done *many* such recordings with Oktavas. If it's among audience a high stand will help distance incidental audience sound. Then you've got whatever venue/security/safety issues to deal with. A stereo pair of Cardioids or Hypercardioids like this is a very handy set of mics for live music recording.

An addition to suggest is to give the house sound person an audio recorder, already set to your standard of 16/48 or 24/48. And, who's in charge, anyways? If you're working for the band, the house sound person should be cooperating. If the band isn't cooperating, why are you doing it? They own their performance...

Most reasonable tech ppl just want advance notice and no extra work. You provide the recorder with the necessary adapter and don’t hassle them 10 minutes before the show starts. For a lot shows I do the person running the board didn’t set it up and has no idea how to give you a feed or where to plugin.

As Seth said, if the band have asked you to record their performance then they should have no problem at all giving you a mixer feed, unless they have agreed to give the performance recording rights to the promoters. Otherwise, just liaise well in advance with the engineer, after all they must want the best sound you can get. If the venue is offering the mixing and engineer to the band, then they have no rights over the output without the band's agreement and again it is up to the band.

If you are recording for someone not connected with the band, then you are very likely to be infringing on the band's performance copyright and could be leaving yourself liable.

Roger

Key is are you recording on behalf of or with permission of the band AND the house?
Is the mixer the band's (first post reads like it is) or the house?
What is the intended purpose/use of the recording?
Are you recording for the band or some one else?
If for the band, do they just want visual, and enough sound to sync later?
How good does the sound need to be?

In any case, an outdoor venue is not likely to provide very clean sound.

What is the venue sound system going to be? If simply a bank of speakers pounding out house sound at each side of the stage, maybe just mic the speakers with the very rugged SM58s.

Many questions unanswered. But here's a thought. Put a Tascam DR-40 or similar on a tall stand and put it near the center. I recorded a number of live concerst that way (outdoors) and it gave me a really nice sound. Just the right amount of audience sound plus a very rich, realistic sound. I was right next to the mixer position centered on the stage. I was also able to get a board feed, but I have to say the audio from the Tascam was really nice. I did put my unused boom mic fur over the mics for some over kill wind protection.

Guys thank you for your input! I will be using a pair of Oktava MK 010 mics about 10' from the speakers.
Like me, everybody (including the pro bands) has been drafted and is donating time and effort for a charitable cause. The organizer is reluctant to make demands and neither will I. "It is what it is"

For what it is worth, all of us should try to help others. In this instance, it is disabled vets.
As a semi retired shooter, money is scarce so I give my time. You?

Thanks again all!

Guys thank you for your input! I will be using a pair of Oktava MK 010 mics about 10' from the speakers.
Like me, everybody (including the pro bands) has been drafted and is donating time and effort for a charitable cause. The organizer is reluctant to make demands and neither will I. "It is what it is"

For what it is worth, all of us should try to help others. In this instance, it is disabled vets.
As a semi retired shooter, money is scarce so I give my time. You?

Thanks again all!

Prepare to be flexible with placement of your pair of Oktavas. Ten feet will minimize the sound of the crowd a great deal and get you mostly PA but it won't sound that good. The mix needs some distance from the speakers to blend and sound good. As others have mentioned the best sound is usually by the FOH mix position. If you can, get the mics up about 8 feet. The crowd will be facing away from the mics towards the stage so you'll minimize localized crowd sound but you'll still get enough from them to know that you're at a live concert. Also those mics are sensitive and you could have trouble controlling the levels if you're too close to the speakers. Also think about miking the crowd so you can blend that in as needed in post. You could use your shotguns for that. Mounted near the stage facing the crowd in an xy pattern, or evenly spaced on either side of the stage aiming towards the center of the crowd.
Best of luck! Its a great cause!

Dan, nobody's hammering you. All legitimate comments so far.

One of your biggest challenges is concert sound systems. We know your not going to get a board feed. So your mics will be 10 feet away from what speakers? Concert sound is routed into many types of speakers all producing different sound. If you are 20 feet away from center you might find yourself smack in front of a row of thumping subs with no vocals. Just saying, be careful which speakers you mic. But you probably know that. It is a forum, I do not know you.

I have been in many secured mosh pits. None of them were 20 or 30 feet deep. You said you will have room to your right and left. Is this secured space? If not that is the last place I would want to work from even at a charity concert for a good cause. I have been pushed around and unable to work even by small crowds that meant no harm. Crowd dynamics can be scary and unpredictable. Please be careful, stage center 30 feet out is not a safe place to work for you or your gear once 10 bands are playing and alcohol flows.

Kind Regards,

Steve

I actually get Dan. I also live in the budget event video world. I’ve never been allowed to setup a centered stereo pair on 10’ mic stand up front. No one wants you blocking the sight line or taking a prime seat with a mic stand. I’m doing an opera this weekend where the director doesn’t even like a mic polking up 1’ above the stage.

But I have to agree with all of the comments that there are so many pit falls trying to put a mic any where else. Honestly just get the board feed.

...The organizer is reluctant to make demands and neither will I. "It is what it is"

For what it is worth, all of us should try to help others. In this instance, it is disabled vets.
As a semi retired shooter, money is scarce so I give my time. You?
Dan, I respect what you're trying to do, and your motivation to do so. I too am pretty much out of the production biz after 35+ years, having transitioned to teaching the next generations. But, I can't leave well enough alone, I'm doing volunteer production for non-profits that are supporting causes I believe in.

And, I have to say, it's harder than doing work for money. I'm working for and with great people. They don't have much of a clue, compared to the people I dealt with as an agency producer and as a freelancer. It's harder to establish credibility. They don't know the media *buying* biz, don't know video, don't value something they get for free, don't know media marketing, don't have a clear understanding of what I do, exactly how you or I could provide value to the organization or beneficiaries, and don't at all understand what we need to succeed in supporting the organization with our work.

With all that as given in volunteer work like this, it's still pretty discouraging to hear that advocating for quality in production is perceived as "making demands".

***Edit***
Now in the light of day, I want to emphasize that the non-profits I’ve volunteered for are doing important work, and are run by quality people who are dedicated to the mission. It’s always been needful in my career to explain to clients what we do, why we do it, why it’s valuable to them, and what we need to succeed. I’ve been surprised at how much more difficult that is in volunteering. Partly, I think, this is because the leadership of most non-profits are individually incredibly busy, wearing many hats, serving many roles, and don’t have dedicated time and mind-share for the video work. So be it. I’ll keep at it.

Thanks all for your understanding. I will have two Oktava MK 12 mics in the middle of the stage. Because of the advice I have received here and on another forum, the mics will be 10' to 15' from the stage in a ORTF configuration. I also have a pair of SM58s with pads that will be feeding Marantz recorders and set up close to the stage. Another pair of PZM mics (don't laugh) will be feeding Tascam recorders and will be on the ground close to the stage. I could bring my Macke mixer but that would require a skilled operator to run it.

I own a high powered PA system which I will set up in my yard Saturday to try to simulate what I think the conditions will be at my event.

Now I just gotta round up some competent help! I am too old and feeble for this nightmare.

Thanks all for your understanding. I will have two Oktava MK 12 mics in the middle of the stage. Because of the advice I have received here and on another forum, the mics will be 10' to 15' from the stage in a ORTF configuration. I also have a pair of SM58s with pads that will be feeding Marantz recorders and set up close to the stage. Another pair of PZM mics (don't laugh) will be feeding Tascam recorders and will be on the ground close to the stage. I could bring my Macke mixer but that would require a skilled operator to run it.

I own a high powered PA system which I will set up in my yard Saturday to try to simulate what I think the conditions will be at my event.

Now I just gotta round up some competent help! I am too old and feeble for this nightmare.

Good plan to do a run thru with your PA system. I'm curious what you're hoping to pick up with the PZMs and the 58s. As for the PZMs on the ground I'd be concerned about them getting stepped on by the audience unless there is a barrier set up to keep them from going to the front of the stage. If its a large PA system they'll mostly be getting the subs I would think.
Do your recorders have built in mics? As I suggested previously a decent recording could be made with just one of those back by the mix position on a tall stand. I'd be cautious of over complicating this and ending up with tracks that won't really add to the finished product. Also think about miking the audience. A large part of the energy in a live concert is imparted by the crowd, just like at a sporting event. The video and audio of the crowd will be an important part of documenting these concerts.

Dan, I've been in your shoes. Volunteer work is rewarding but also can be very frustrating. I find that most non-profits that do really good work tend to feel like they are imposing when they ask for things. One of the tactics I've used is to demonstrate to them the enormous value they can gain if they help you get just a little better quality, either visually or usually more importantly soundwise. The video can become a very useful tool in allowing them to secure more donations or being able to attract more people to help volunteer.

Good luck with your worthy endeavor.

Thanks all for your understanding. I will have two Oktava MK 12 mics in the middle of the stage. Because of the advice I have received here and on another forum, the mics will be 10' to 15' from the stage in a ORTF configuration.

I wouldn't. Why? Typically in these situations there are only two sound sources that dominate everything. That is, the stacks of speakers on L/R of the stage.

ORTF works great with something like an acoustic orchestra. It's great a locating the instruments in a stereo field. But that's not what you have here. Your ORTF setup won't hear a bleeding thing from the center -- it will only hear the stacks (same as you and everyone in the audience). It's not going to place the lead guitar off center to the left unless the FOH guys do that and the stack on the left has him a little louder than the stack on the right.

This is why the Tapers came up with the "point at stacks" method. It probably came from ORTF, but it's been modified to work with live amplified shows that have stacks of speakers as output. Instead of hearing the stacks from the off-axis response of the cards, you hear the stacks from the on-axis response of the cards. The Tapers claim this sounds considerably better. And the logic of it is spot on.

+1 on what Bruce said.

Also, It sounds like you have given up on a board feed but I have one more easy suggestion. In my experience Planners, Organizers, Promoters and other non technical people often say "no" to a lot of requests for things they don't understand just because it sounds like a big deal to them. I am not too pushy of a guy (OK, thats debatable sometimes). But when I run into a "no" I look for the easy yes.

A board feed is not technically a big deal, as long as your not going to have it monitored and adjusted on the fly as it should be. I would have a recorder and have XLR and 1/4" jumper cables in hand and I would ask the sound engineer himself if I could have a feed. When your behind the board this happens all the time. You might be surprised how willing he is to help you out. The key is timing. If you ask right before the show you will get a resounding no. There are always sound checks. You can set your levels then. If that feed is not monitored I do not consider it to be a main record, it is a back up record. But sometimes it turns out to be a great track to mix in when I go to post. It depends on a lot of things.

I have been a part of numerous threads on this board about recording live events. The number one thing many of us are always preaching is use back up recordings independent of each other. My guess is your PZM & SM58 tracks will not end up getting used unless everything else is not good. You can improve the SM58s by placing in front of a speaker stack instead of on stage front.

Good Luck Dan. We have all tried to do the best we can with little support and resources.

Kind Regards,

Steve

I think this dilemma is unique but I am semi-retired now and I will not have these problems anymore. If the gig is not fun I will let someone else do it.

I think this dilemma is unique but I am semi-retired now and I will not have these problems anymore. If the gig is not fun I will let someone else do it.
Please let us know what you ended up doing and how it worked out for you!
BB

Have you done the concert yet? How did it go?

For curiosity sake, here is a clip of a public event I recorded pro-bono. It is indeed a frustrating exercise when you cannot get desk audio.

For perceived reasons of public liability by the organiser and venue owner, I had to sit off behind the audience arena with two cameras and zoom lenses. I had a X-Y pair of old Sony C74 shotgun mikes at the side camera position as a backup. It was to receive a feed from the mix desk via my own two channel mixer at the camera. There was a Decca Tree on a high stand with the rear camera audio mixed from three Rode NT2a mikes into two channels.

There was a feed sent from the mix desk which initially tested successful but the desk operator ran into some late problems. In the resolving of those, the desk feed was disconnected. The event kicked off before I could trouble-shoot the desk feed issue and in any event, I was not prepared to hassle the desk operator at that late stage. The final sound in this clip was mixed from the two camera ambient audio tracks alone.

One of the students from the college carried my EX1 around and also at full zoom picked off a few shaky close-ups from within the crowd area.

ROLEYSTONE COMMUNITY COLLEGE CHOIR AT ARALUEN 2014 2 - YouTube

For curiosity sake, here is a clip of a public event I recorded pro-bono. It is indeed a frustrating exercise when you cannot get desk audio.

For perceived reasons of public liability by the organiser and venue owner, I had to sit off behind the audience arena with two cameras and zoom lenses. I had a X-Y pair of old Sony C74 shotgun mikes at the side camera position as a backup. It was to receive a feed from the mix desk via my own two channel mixer at the camera. There was a Decca Tree on a high stand with the rear camera audio mixed from three Rode NT2a mikes into two channels.

There was a feed sent from the mix desk which initially tested successful but the desk operator ran into some late problems. In the resolving of those, the desk feed was disconnected. The event kicked off before I could trouble-shoot the desk feed issue and in any event, I was not prepared to hassle the desk operator at that late stage. The final sound in this clip was mixed from the two camera ambient audio tracks alone.

One of the students from the college carried my EX1 around and also at full zoom picked off a few shaky close-ups from within the crowd area.

ROLEYSTONE COMMUNITY COLLEGE CHOIR AT ARALUEN 2014 2 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7C3jSccwk8&t=4s)
Sounds very good IMHO! So I'm a little confused as to which mics this was from. Was it the Decca tree, the xy pair or both? Or something mounted on the cameras?

UPDATE: At my age, I should have remembered an old addage one of my ministers told me "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!"
.
I invested a lot of time and some money into this event only to BOW OUT!

The final straw was trying to get AC power to my position. I did not have sufficient battery power to run two cameras for eight hours. The only response I received from my requests was "the stage has a 60amp service". I am 100% dependent on a pacemaker. If I get a shock, goodbye.

THAT IS THE END OF THE STORY.

Thanks All

Sorry to hear it didn’t work out. The gist of what many of us were saying that doesn’t matter that it was pro bono ask for what you need otherwise you’re setting yourself for failure. When you aren’t proactive or ignore red flags bad things happen. From everything you described leading up it sounded that you would be on your own and that the video wasn’t a priority.

Bob's video made me think that he probably got the best sound - because very little of what we heard would be from the PA system - so quite good I think.

Dan - with your pacemaker, you're probably less likely to die if you get a shock - because your tachycardia rhythm is maintained by your pacemaker, and it's this that gets interrupted by a shock - your pacemaker is designed to resist outside influences.

I don't quite understand what you mean by the stage having a 60 amp supply? In my venue, we have multiple three phase supplies for people who visit us - and in our case, these go up to 415V at 125A. When we have visiting camera crews who ask for power, we usually point them to these too? However, if what they mean is they want us to provide them with power at various points, then this would usually be a chargeable item - either in time, as in tasking a crew member to provide what you need. If asked for in advance in a rider or even an email, it's usually free - so if they ask for a 13A outlet situated in X and Y for a camera position we'd do this - but we also might point out that one of these locations is a fire route, and even though it is clear, it cannot be blocked with a camera and operator for any reason. We would then suggest suitable places. I have had video companies who reject these positions and then complain we were uncooperative.

I'm sorry the event didn't work out as you expected, but the warning signs were there, clear and loud. You wanted an audio feed. The organiser couldn't arrange it, you wanted power, this wasn't going to happen either. The problem here was that nobody in authority was on your side, and frankly - let you sink. This shows what they really wanted. A video on the cheap, with no effort on their part and no expense or planning. You were best not to do it.

Just a thought - was this an outside event?

YUP! Outside with chance of thunderstorms.

UPDATE: At my age, I should have remembered an old addage one of my ministers told me "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!"
.
I invested a lot of time and some money into this event only to BOW OUT!

The final straw was trying to get AC power to my position. I did not have sufficient battery power to run two cameras for eight hours. The only response I received from my requests was "the stage has a 60amp service". I am 100% dependent on a pacemaker. If I get a shock, goodbye.

THAT IS THE END OF THE STORY.

Thanks All
Dang I was looking forward to hearing about your experiences with this! Shame on them for being so cavalier about helping you do something your were doing for all the right reasons. You did the right thing to step away as frustrating as that must have been. The lack of appreciation for your efforts is telling.

In US staging jargon "the stage has 60 amp service" often means there is a 60 amp "power drop box" backstage, or many of them. It is usually 3 legs of 60 amps each. Sometimes each leg is separated to power audio/video/lighting. A random third party video guy at an unorganized event like this could easily end up running into problems plugging into that service without proper communication from the stage hands working the box. Power supplies are often hard to come by back stage. If a stagehand or rigger finds something unknown plugged into a source dedicated for his use some of them don't hesitate to "yank it out". It's not their problem what is on the other end. Murphy strikes!

Side note: Years ago I was freelancing at a show. There was a 60 amp box leaning against a wall about thirty feet away from our technicians control area. Someone had thrown a piece of black drape over it to kind of hide the ugly box with 36 stingers plugged into it. To my horror, after the show started I looked over and saw a guy sitting on the box and leaning against the wall the box was leaning against. What was so scary is he was precariously setting down a giant big gulp type soda cup on the box. I went over and nicely told him he could not stay there. Without moving he gave me some crap about there not being enough seats in the house. I was no longer in nice guy mode. I said "your sitting on a high powered electrical box. If you spill that Coke it is going to weld your balls to a steel box. Move!" He did!

Kind Regards,

Steve

...the stage has 60 amp service...
Sometimes techies can overthink problems and solutions. Was the power you wanted just a plain vanilla old 120 volt, 15 (or 20) amp wall outlet? FWIW: For modest camcorder power at long events I often carry about 100' of indoor/outdoor orange extension cord (#14 works well, on a spool), gaffers tape to hold it down, and a surge protected power strip.

If far from outlets, a typical 35 Ahr golf cart battery and a car power charger/adapter that works with your camcorder can give a lot of run time. Expect perhaps 15 hours run time with a 2-amp (14 watt) camcorder.

If far from outlets, a typical 35 Ahr golf cart battery and a car power charger/adapter that works with your camcorder can give a lot of run time. Expect perhaps 15 hours run time with a 2-amp (14 watt) camcorder.

I have a Yeti 400 which would (theoretically) give you 20 hours run time with a 20 watt load. Haven't done much with it yet, but will use it for a family event soon in my micro-venue out in the woods.

The same company (Goal Zero) makes portable power supplies in a whole range of sizes. They can be daisy-chained and plugged into solar panels too.

https://www.goalzero.com/shop/power-stations/goal-zero-yeti-400-portable-power-station/

When I will need AC power, I always have available some long extension cords available, as most venues will not have them anyway. Same as taking a feed from a house console, carry the proper adapters, DIs and.. knowledge of the typical console outputs.

Here in the UK, outside power can be extremely tricky because of our higher mains voltage, and the weather.

We now have special sets of rules that make providing power to users outside quite a job. Of course, many smaller events have never heard of these regulations, and string out loads of extension cables, often taken from inside outlets and taken outside. This is actually quite risky - RCDs and other protection devices often nuisance trip, or worse, fail to trip in real fault conditions. Grounding is also problematic. The 3 core cable connected to the indoor ground could be at a different potential to the ground out in the field. Serious current can flow sometimes, and of course it leaks into the sound and video systems and produces hum. We now need to have properly configured and planned outside supplies, with proper grounding, and plenty of safety reserve.


I was playing a festival a couple of years ago. During one song, I discovered the stage roof leaking, and it was running right down my back. My front was dry but I was soaked behind. A few minute later, all the power went - and when it was restored, it soon went again. Turned out somebody had run an indoor 4 way cable along the safety zone, stage side of the barrier, and it had filled with water. every time somebody walked past - photographers, video people and security, they knocked it and the water sloshed against the live and ground terminals, and the RCDs killed the supply. I kept thinking of my wet back - the grounded guitar I'm holding and thinking about how much a shock might hurt. Since then, when I see industrial European connectors with their sealing and splash resistance, I'm happy - but when I see domestic cabling, I squirm a bit.

We've moved a fair way with this topic.

When I will need AC power, I always have available some long extension cords available, as most venues will not have them anyway. Same as taking a feed from a house console, carry the proper adapters, DIs and.. knowledge of the typical console outputs.
This is the first thing I talk about with the client, setup location, amount of coverage, power availability, and board feed. Like you said bring everything you need. Shooting outdoors you should go over with the client how weather conditions will be handled. I’m surprised people who show up to an event not thinking things through.